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Sten
04-06-2009, 10:07
Advice from members of this site has led me to the realization that “civilian daily carry” equipment is mostly a personal choice/preference. The only constant is the adage “the first requirement of a gun fight is to have a gun”. Equipment is not my concern, mindset and decision making is what I need help with and hope to discuss here.

My first questions revolve around the decision making process of when to draw.

I am not going to delude myself that I am going to be in an “old west” style throw down where fractions of a seconds count. I have the assumption that reasonable situational awareness will allow time to get to a gun even in a harder to reach holster? Is this a wrong assumption?

I am not fighting terrorist scum, I am not undercover and I am not a law man. As a civilian if I pull a gun in public I am starting a chain of events that is going to result in possible negative contact with local law enforcement, even if I do not discharge a gun. If this logic is sound then it is imperative that my go/no-go draw decision making is sound. Is there anything I can do to refine that decision making process?

The Reaper
04-06-2009, 10:29
SA drives the train.

Scenarios can vary from an unexpected assault to plenty of time to prepare and stack mags. You have to be ready for the full spectrum at all times, and rely on your SA to let you know in sufficient time to prepare yourself and your training to put you in a position to survive.

It is a tough decision. Mas Ayoob teaches some decent classes on the legal ramifications of lethal force, and you might want to look for a local criminal defense attorney for some additional specific advice.

Best of luck.

TR

nmap
04-06-2009, 11:22
Fascinating subject. Thank you, Sten, for posing the question. And thank you, Reaper, for your wisdom.

Team Sergeant
04-06-2009, 11:29
Advice from members of this site has led me to the realization that “civilian daily carry” equipment is mostly a personal choice/preference. The only constant is the adage “the first requirement of a gun fight is to have a gun”. Equipment is not my concern, mindset and decision making is what I need help with and hope to discuss here.

My first questions revolve around the decision making process of when to draw.

I am not going to delude myself that I am going to be in an “old west” style throw down where fractions of a seconds count. I have the assumption that reasonable situational awareness will allow time to get to a gun even in a harder to reach holster? Is this a wrong assumption?

I am not a fighting terrorist scum, I am not undercover and I am not a law man. As a civilian if I pull a gun in public I am starting a chain of events that is going to result in possible negative contact with local law enforcement, even if I do not discharge a gun. If this logic is sound then it is imperative that my go/no-go draw decision making is sound. Is there anything I can do to refine that decision making process?

It's actually pretty simple, when you fear for your life or the life of another (bad guy pointing weapon at your wife kids etc.).

It also depends on what extreme left-wing state you reside in, for example if you reside in the socialist left-wing state of massachusetts and an armed bad-guy breaks into your home in the middle of the night by state law you must cower, turn tail and run away by any and all possible means, lest you face a law suit by the "bad-guys" lawyers for pointing a gun at them.

Know your "use of deadly force" laws and you better be able to recite them. Most states have books written by individuals that lay it out in simple terms "when" you can use deadly force. And when you do be prepared to be arrested and treated like a criminal for doing the right thing.

Make no mistake, these days the "law" is more important than "life".

TS

Richard
04-06-2009, 11:46
TR and TS are correct - consider what LEOs go through whenever a weapon is drawn.

Rules of Thumb I always lived by -


If a life is in jeopardy - draw.

If property is in jeopardy - don't - unless you're in a state like Texas or can justify life endangerment, too.

Hesitation is never your friend.

Practice regularly - a wounded men can lie to anyone with a sympathetic ear.


I sincerely hope you never have to use your weapon beyond regular target practice.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

DinDinA-2
04-06-2009, 11:49
This is going to be a great thread.

The politics of your individual state is very important.

Three acts you might address:

1. The mere drawing of a weapon may be a violation of law because someone may now feel "threatened", even bystanders.

2. The "pointing" of a weapon may be a violation of law because someone now surely feels "threatened."

3. The fireing of a weapon...veriy serious stuff.

The burden on a civilian to "get it right" is huge. So, do you want to be judged by 12 or carried by 6?

I am looking forward to thought provoking post on this subject.

armymom1228
04-06-2009, 12:05
ALL the above and this..

My father taught me one thing about guns that has stayed with me my entire life.

Dad told me, "pull it and shoot or don't pull it at all. IF you can find a way to get out of a situation without using do so. If not, do not hesitate and do not point a gun and threaten. That person might just take the gun from you and shoot you with your own gun."

YMMV:)

DinDinA-2
04-06-2009, 12:45
Well said "mom".

My original intent was to point out that when you "draw", you have set in motion a series of events that you cannot "take back". One person or many may be affected by your decision to draw.

TS, TR & Richards comments are certainly worthy of re-reading. Keep in mind the the QPs on this site are not regular people. Their situational awareness and decision making skills, as a result, are far superior than your typical CCW person.

The ability to assess and act on dangerous situations is not an "automatic" after taking a CCW class. When you go to the range, which should be frequent, you should also spend time practicing some mental exercises as well. When do I feel adequatel threatened to use deadly physical force? What would I do, what should I do? Think of as many scenarios as you can. Then decide if you could have done something to avoid being in those scenarios in the first place. Discuss these scenarios with others you know that carry.

Terms like...feel threatened, fear of deadly physical force, and others, are subject to interpretation. In my opinion, if one doesn't have a very good idea of what these mean to a "reasonal and prudent" person (LE, Judge, jury and yourself), then perhaps carrying may not be a good idea.

Family protection, self protection and protection of others is an obligation for everyone...select the best tools, for you, to do so, and become competant.

e7cdt
04-06-2009, 12:47
In Ohio, there are three criteria that have to be met in order to use lethal force (and *any* time you fire your weapon is called lethal force): Don't be at fault for the altercation, Reasonable and Honest belief of danger and not having a duty to retreat. (http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/pubs/200808_ccw_book.pdf) Sadly, TS had it right Make no mistake, these days the "law" is more important than "life".

The best policy is to separate and disengage, if you can. Personally, I'd only draw if there was a life on the line - or they're in my house (then they made their choice). Hopefully it will never happen, but it's good to be prepared. As my CCW permit instructor put it, "I always carry 2 weapons and extra mags. I'm still hoping I can slide that second piece to someone else and we can shoot our way out of some situation."

greenberetTFS
04-06-2009, 12:59
It's actually pretty simple, when you fear for your life or the life of another (bad guy pointing weapon at your wife kids etc.).

It also depends on what extreme left-wing state you reside in, for example if you reside in the socialist left-wing state of massachusetts and an armed bad-guy breaks into your home in the middle of the night by state law you must cower, turn tail and run away by any and all possible means, lest you face a law suit by the "bad-guys" lawyers for pointing a gun at them.

Know your "use of deadly force" laws and you better be able to recite them. Most states have books written by individuals that lay it out in simple terms "when" you can use deadly force. And when you do be prepared to be arrested and treated like a criminal for doing the right thing.

Make no mistake, these days the "law" is more important than "life".

TS

TS,

God bless the state of Mississippi,none of that s**t applies here. Very good support from LEO's ,etc if you shoot a criminal trespassing on your property. The minute he attempts to enter your home. You can shoot him dead and your completely covered by the law..........:D

GB TFS :munchin

armymom1228
04-06-2009, 12:59
You forgot to mention the simple fact of thinking, if you have the time, can I get out of this without using my weapon. Many don't go that route, but should. Some actions, once done or started, cannot be taken back.
If I can talk my way out of a situation or simply walk away, it is my preferred course of action. If not.. well...



Well said "mom".

My original intent was to point out that when you "draw", you have set in motion a series of events that you cannot "take back". One person or many may be affected by your decision to draw.

TS, TR & Richards comments are certainly worthy of re-reading. Keep in mind the the QPs on this site are not regular people. Their situational awareness and decision making skills, as a result, are far superior than your typical CCW person.

The ability to assess and act on dangerous situations is not an "automatic" after taking a CCW class. When you go to the range, which should be frequent, you should also spend time practicing some mental exercises as well. When do I feel adequatel threatened to use deadly physical force? What would I do, what should I do? Think of as many scenarios as you can. Then decide if you could have done something to avoid being in those scenarios in the first place. Discuss these scenarios with others you know that carry.

Terms like...feel threatened, fear of deadly physical force, and others, are subject to interpretation. In my opinion, if one doesn't have a very good idea of what these mean to a "reasonal and prudent" person (LE, Judge, jury and yourself), then perhaps carrying may not be a good idea.

Family protection, self protection and protection of others is an obligation for everyone...select the best tools, for you, to do so, and become competant.

booker
04-06-2009, 13:14
For those of you living in the Commonwealth of Virginia the law is clear, you must meet the following five criteria in order to be within the law:

"THE COURT INSTRUCTS THE JURY THAT if the evidence showed the defendant was to some degree at fault in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, and if you further find that when attacked:
1. He retreated as far as he safely could under the circumstances;
2. In a good faith attempt to abandon the fight;
3. Made known his desire for peace by word or act;
4. He reasonably feared, under the circumstances as they appeared to him, that he was in danger of bodily harm; and
5. He used no more force that was reasonably necessary to protect himself from the threatened harm, then you shall find the defendant not guilty. "

The defense of property isn't as well thought out as Mississippi's:

"DEFENSE OF PROPERTY

A person has NO RIGHT TO USE DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his personal property. This applies where you are only defending your property and NOT defending yourself or your family. (example, you CANNOT shoot someone in the back while they are running across your yard away from you with your TV) A person has NO RIGHT TO THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his property. (This is a recent change in Virginia law). (Example, it is a crime to brandish a firearm to run someone off who is breaking into your unoccupied car in a parking lot [but, how many people do you think will go to the magistrate to swear out the following warrant: “look, I was trying to break into this dude’s car when he ran up and scared me by pointing a gun at me and telling me he was going to shoot me.”]) A person has NO RIGHT TO USE OR THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to run off a mere trespasser on their open land (beyond the curtilage surrounding the home). The policy behind these laws on defending property and land holds that human life is far more important than your TV or your car or the grass that gets trampled. But remember that most home burglary situations involve defending not only your property but yourself, your spouse, and your children who are in the home. Also, there is case law in Virginia for the "castle doctrine." This doctrine holds that one may use deadly force to defend his home to keep aggressors out of the home. "

Sten
04-06-2009, 17:19
Thank you all.

I am going to run down more information on Indiana's "use of deadly force", "castle doctrine" and CCW laws in general, I will report back on what I find.

DinDinA-2
04-06-2009, 17:43
Booker,

"5. He used no more force that was reasonably necessary to protect himself from the threatened harm, then you shall find the defendant not guilty. "

So...practiciing for the X-ring is out? More practice to legs and arms, I guess.

Go Devil
04-06-2009, 18:38
Thank you all.

I am going to run down more information on Indiana's "use of deadly force", "castle doctrine" and CCW laws in general, I will report back on what I find.

Sten,

You may want to check out ingunowners.com

They have a considerable amount of information and discussion for residents of Indiana.

Team Sergeant
04-06-2009, 19:46
For those of you living in the Commonwealth of Virginia the law is clear, you must meet the following five criteria in order to be within the law:

"THE COURT INSTRUCTS THE JURY THAT if the evidence showed the defendant was to some degree at fault in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, and if you further find that when attacked:
1. He retreated as far as he safely could under the circumstances;
2. In a good faith attempt to abandon the fight;
3. Made known his desire for peace by word or act;
4. He reasonably feared, under the circumstances as they appeared to him, that he was in danger of bodily harm; and
5. He used no more force that was reasonably necessary to protect himself from the threatened harm, then you shall find the defendant not guilty. "

The defense of property isn't as well thought out as Mississippi's:

"DEFENSE OF PROPERTY

A person has NO RIGHT TO USE DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his personal property. This applies where you are only defending your property and NOT defending yourself or your family. (example, you CANNOT shoot someone in the back while they are running across your yard away from you with your TV) A person has NO RIGHT TO THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his property. (This is a recent change in Virginia law). (Example, it is a crime to brandish a firearm to run someone off who is breaking into your unoccupied car in a parking lot [but, how many people do you think will go to the magistrate to swear out the following warrant: “look, I was trying to break into this dude’s car when he ran up and scared me by pointing a gun at me and telling me he was going to shoot me.”]) A person has NO RIGHT TO USE OR THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to run off a mere trespasser on their open land (beyond the curtilage surrounding the home). The policy behind these laws on defending property and land holds that human life is far more important than your TV or your car or the grass that gets trampled. But remember that most home burglary situations involve defending not only your property but yourself, your spouse, and your children who are in the home. Also, there is case law in Virginia for the "castle doctrine." This doctrine holds that one may use deadly force to defend his home to keep aggressors out of the home. "



LOLOLOL, what a joke, five things before you can use deadly force.....

Amazing, actually not amazing at all....sad or disgusting is a better word.

It will get to a point when (unless there are children involved) I would walk on by thinking to myself, "Ain't my fight" and continue on. You folks in these left-wing socialist states are on your own as far as I'm concerned.

Team Sergeant

The Reaper
04-06-2009, 20:36
I agree.

There are enough legal qualifiers there to make it read like it came from Mass.

If someone is closing on you with a knife from inside 21 feet, I defy the average citizen to review his rules, draw, and engage before the attacker is in close personal contact and inflicting injuries.

TR

alelks
04-06-2009, 21:25
Situation definitely dictates.

I can say from experience (thank God only once). I had to draw on my own property. Fortunately the individual (after my 3rd verbal warning and after me drawing down on him) decided that he did not want to loose his life that night. One more step forward and he would have died.

Long story short, just because you draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. Guy was severely beating this girl in the middle of the street in front of my house (I live in the country). I walked out with my gun to side yelling at him as I approached the street. After my 3rd yell he finally heard me in his rage. He stepped onto my property. I raised the weapon (pistol) told him in a commanding voice "You don't want to think about it". He kept coming. I threw a round in the chamber (warning #2) and said one more time "I said you don't want to think about it". He kept coming and I drew down on him in a solid Weaver stance and yelled "One more step and you die where the (blank) you fall (3rd warning). The wife meanwhile was yelling on the front porch "Son, don't step forward, he WILL shoot you" at the top of her lungs. Well he knew right then that I meant business and backed off. He was still in a rage but he knew that in one more step he would no longer be of this world.

Thank God I didn't have to shoot but this is a prime example that just because you have to draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. Come to find out he had just gotten out of prison for shooting into a house and paralyzing a young woman. He spend 2 years in prison for his crime. I went down the next day and file a report as he was in violation of his parole (he was out after dark). Not sure what happened to him after that.

AL

stanley_white
04-08-2009, 17:32
Allow me to paraphrase / butcher one of my favorite Kelly McCann quotes when he discusses his research into gunfights during the wild west days "The fastest draw is no draw. If these guys thought they were going to be in a fight when they left the bar they had their gun in their hand before they walked outside."

Kyobanim
04-08-2009, 19:12
This works for me . . .

Pan Am/Delta pilot involved in shooting.

Plantation, FL -- Last week police were called to investigate an attempted armed Robbery:

The 71-year-old retired Marine who opened fire on two robbers at a Plantation, FL, Subway shop late Wednesday, killing one and critically wounding the other, is described as John Lovell, a former helicopter pilot for two presidents. He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke, and he works out everyday. Mr. Lovell was a man of action Wednesday night.

According to Plantation police, two masked gunmen came into the Subway at 1949 N. Pine Rd. Just after 11 p.m. There was a lone diner, Mr. Lovell, who was finishing his meal.. After robbing the cashier, the two men attempted to shove Mr. Lovell into a bathroom and rob him as well.

They got his money, but then Mr. Lovell pulled his handgun and opened fired. He shot one of the thieves in the head and chest and the other in the head.

When police arrived, they found one of the men in the shop, K-9 Units found the other in the bushes of a nearby business.. They also found cash strewn around the front of the sandwich shop according to
Detective Robert Rettig of the Plantation Police Department.

Both men were taken to the Broward General Medical Center , where one, Donicio Arrindell, 22, of North Lauderdale died. The other, 21-year-old Frederick Gadson of Fort Lauderdale is in critical but stable condition.

A longtime friend of Lovell was not surprised to hear what happened. The friend said, ''He'd give you the shirt off his back, but he'd be mad as hell if someone tried to take the shirt off your back.''

Mr. Lovell was a pilot in the Marine Corps, flying former Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. He later worked as a pilot for Pan Am and Delta.

He is not expected to be charged authorities said. ''He was in fear for his life,'' Detective Rettig said, "These criminals ought to realize that most men in their 70's have military backgrounds and aren't
intimidated by idiots."

Something tells me this old Marine wasn't in fear for his life, even though his life was definitely at risk. The only thing he could be charged with is participating in an unfair fight. One 71 year young Marine against two punks. Two head shots and one center body mass shot - Outstanding shooting! That'll teach them not to get between a Marine and his meal.

Don't you just love a story with a happy ending?

Florida law allows eligible citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Every state should.

Sten
04-08-2009, 19:39
This works for me . . .

Pan Am/Delta pilot involved in shooting.


Don't you just love a story with a happy ending?

Florida law allows eligible citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Every state should.

So I should carry around a 71 year old Marine?:D

Richard
04-08-2009, 19:54
I had a situation similar to alelks' on a Sunday morning about eight years ago with a shouting/shoving fight between a young man and the college-aged daughter of the neighbor who lives across the street from me. I knew my neighbors were gone for the weekend and, when I saw what was going on, I walked outside to the sidewalk in front of my house carrying the baseball bat I keep next to my front door and talking with the police on one of the mobile house phones. He started cussing at me and making threats when I matter-of-factly told him I was talking to the police, and he came into the street. I told him - as I continued talking to the police - that if he came onto my property I would have to assume he wanted to harm me and I would have to defend myself. My wife and teenaged sons were in the entryway watching and keeping my 12 gauge out of sight but ready - I had told them not to come outside. The girl's boyfriend never did come onto my property - just paced around in the street, making threats and cussing at me - he was still out there carrying on when the police showed up and hauled him away. My neighbor gave me a nice bottle of wine for helping his daughter, and I never saw or heard from the guy again.

Threats come in all shapes and sizes and at any time - and drawing a weapon is not always called for - SA and preparedness to act are the keys.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

alelks
04-08-2009, 20:32
I had a situation similar to alelks' on a Sunday morning about eight years ago with a shouting/shoving fight between a young man and the college-aged daughter of the neighbor who lives across the street from me. I knew my neighbors were gone for the weekend and, when I saw what was going on, I walked outside to the sidewalk in front of my house carrying the baseball bat I keep next to my front door and talking with the police on one of mobile house phones. He started cussing at me and making threats when I matter-of-factly told him I was talking to the police, and he came into the street. I told him - as I continued talking to the police - that if he came onto my property I would have to assume he wanted to harm me and I would have to defend myself. My wife and teenaged sons were in the entryway watching and keeping my 12 gauge out of sight but ready - I had told them not to come outside. The girl's boyfriend never did come onto my property - just paced around in the street, making threats and cussing at me - he was still out there carrying on when the police showed up and hauled him away. My neighbor gave me a nice bottle of wine for helping his daughter, and I never saw or heard from the guy again.

Threats come in all shapes and sizes and at any time - and drawing a weapon is not always called for - SA and preparedness to act are the keys.

Richard's $.02 :munchin


My next door neighbor actually told my daughter "He shouldn't have gotten involved". Of course I bet they would think twice about that comment if it had been their 15 year old grand daughter who lives 3 doors down the street getting the crap beat out of her.

That's the problem with people these days they just watch stuff like this happen and say "It's not my problem". That's one of the reasons people get away with the things they do because they know no one wants to get involved.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Especially if it means preventing grave injury or the death of another person.

AL

Richard
04-09-2009, 10:31
I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Especially if it means preventing grave injury or the death of another person.

Once a sheepdog...;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Team Sergeant
04-09-2009, 10:43
Allow me to paraphrase / butcher one of my favorite Kelly McCann quotes when he discusses his research into gunfights during the wild west days "The fastest draw is no draw. If these guys thought they were going to be in a fight when they left the bar they had their gun in their hand before they walked outside."


That may work for a wild west coyboy but has no basis in todays LEO society where a fast draw might actually save your life.

LEO's cannot simply draw their weapon when approaching a vehicle, at night, with blacked out windows, or a closed door of a house where some 23 year old punk, loser lives with his "mom" and is waiting in ambush behind that closed door with an AK-47.

Situational Awareness is a wonderful thing if you possess it, but you can have all the SA in the world and it ain't worth a hill of beans when some lawyer writes the "Rules of Engagement" for your police department.

Team Sergeant

wet dog
05-04-2009, 03:09
consider also, well in advance your next move, and I don't mean the next 5 seconds, but rather....

"I'm leaving the house, before I step outside, I look around, I consider what I'm carrying in my hands. Am I prepared for a sudden alert or shock of an intruder rushing to my door? Can I see blind spots before I unlock my car, or am I chatting with a friend on the cell phone, etc?".

"When leaving the store, do I remember where I parked? Are my hands free or am I pushing a shopping cart? When I arrive home, did someone follow me into the garage and will they attack after the garage door is down?".

This very thing happened to my neighbor 6 months ago. The only thing different was, she called her husband from her phone 5 blocks away, and he met her in the garage as she pulled up. Her call was to ask him if he could help unload the car, it seems she went to Costco and had alot of produce. By chance the husband was there and prevented an attack.

There was no fight, only a startled intruder who ran off, the husband clearly ID him to an LEO - he was picked up within 30 minutes, sitting in a neigborhood Pub. He was questioned regarding another incident and ID'd relating to another case, a rape case.

Now "they" have an SOP, call before arriving, keep informed of whereabouts. Use shopping carts whenever possible, keeping gun hand free, etc.

Bordercop
05-04-2009, 10:22
Having been in law enforcement for over 30 years and faced with this situation a time or two, I'd like to add to the thread. When faced with a deadly force situation, you should use deadly force as a last resort and after all other options have been either tried or at the very least weighed based on the totality of the circumstances. LEO's get Monday morning quaterbacked every time they use deadly force and we're held to the standard of was the response to the threat reasonable and would another LEO faced with similar circumstances have reacted in a similar fashion.

Two very important things to keep in your head when faced with questioning regarding the action you take are these...1) Were you in fear for your life or grievous bodily harm or did you fear that another innocent person was in danger of losing their life or in danger of suffering grievous bodily harm and 2) Did the person who threatened you possess the Means, Opportunity, and Intent to inflict harm upon you or an innocent third party who you intended to defend.

For example, a subject who has a gun and is running away from your residence possesses the means to do you bodily harm, but their intent is to flee from you. This would be considered a don't shoot situation in almost every jurisdiction I can think of.

If this same person, rather than fleeing charged at you with a gun or other weapon in their hand and you reasonably feared death then you could and should utilize whatever force is necessary to stop the threat. If your only option is deadly force, you had better be ready, willing and able to explain your actions.

Remember, when you practice shooting you practice shooting center mass and you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the threat. Nobody expects you to "wing" the bad guy like in the TV westerns. Aim center mass and don't stop shooting until the threat is longer a threat.

If you aren't ready to articulate why you used deadly force and cannot face the second guessing that's bound to happen, then you should remain a sheep and not get involved.

Perge Sed Caute

dr. mabuse
05-04-2009, 15:29
FWIW...

You don't want to get hurt, yet you don't get to select the Grand Jury nor the trial jury.

In Texas at least, understand when and why you are shooting before you carry, plus a healthy dose of SA goes a long way. YMMV.

Hard to condense it, yet here is an overview.

When you can shoot:

1. Reasonable belief
2. Imminent threat
3. Deadly force

Why you are shooting:

1. Murder
2. Robbery
3. Agg. Robbery
4. Sexual Assault
5. Agg. Sexual Assault
6. Agg. Kidnapping

(To prevent imminent commission of above 6 crimes against you or someone else)

Historically, the above has shown to serve people very well on the street and in court.

Sten
05-04-2009, 16:58
Thank you for all the great advise!

strike-hold
06-07-2009, 03:42
That's the problem with people these days they just watch stuff like this happen and say "It's not my problem". That's one of the reasons people get away with the things they do because they know no one wants to get involved.


To be fair though, a lot of the reason why people don't want to get involved is:
a. becuase they don't know what to do or how to do it
b. they don't know, and therefore fear, the legal ramifications of stepping in
c. or they know/believe that they'll get dragged through the ringer by the lawyers if they do step in

To paraphrase Sun Tzu; Know Yourself, Know the Threat, and Know the Law.

The bottom line is, its harder to be a good, law-abiding citizen contributing to society than it is to be a scumbag sponging off of society. But then it probably always has been. That's the price of civilisation - the price of freedom is constant vigilance.

That's my two cents worth anyways.

Blitzzz (RIP)
06-07-2009, 05:35
Most times these things are done as a reaction. So, thinking of all the possible ramifications may not be first priority of thought. Some will act , some will not. Tsun Tsu probably would not as he requires the thinking analysis.
Laws are not always based on common sense but more than likely they are. In these cases, Action Speaks, Words don't.
Old SF quote: Better to beg forgiveness than ask premission. Blitzzz

BryanK
12-03-2009, 16:32
A person has NO RIGHT TO USE DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his personal property. This applies where you are only defending your property and NOT defending yourself or your family. (example, you CANNOT shoot someone in the back while they are running across your yard away from you with your TV) A person has NO RIGHT TO THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his property. (This is a recent change in Virginia law). (Example, it is a crime to brandish a firearm to run someone off who is breaking into your unoccupied car in a parking lot)..."

This is disturbing. I am in a situation that may call for the brandishing of a firearm to repel future break-ins that my neighbors and I have had recently. Last night my neighbors car was ransacked, last Wednesday my girlfriends coat was stolen from her car, and a couple weeks ago the police were called here about a suspicious person looking into the windows of our cars late at night by my neighbor. My neighbor and I are the only tenants here. We are above a martial arts studio, and there is an auto repair place next to us. Maryland is similar with it's laws regarding defense of property. The police are about 3-5 minutes out, which isn't bad, but I have no windows overlooking the lot to see if anyone is being suspicious before I walk down the steps. The police said just to call them, but that has been done a couple times already to no avail. What would be a good COA? The law-logic says to keep calling the police. The common sense part of me says to carry something with me besides a cell phone down to my car just in case I'm surprised by a crack addict. Any advice is greatly appreciated. BTW, this country is going to hell in a hand cart.

The Reaper
12-03-2009, 16:46
This is disturbing. I am in a situation that may call for the brandishing of a firearm to repel future break-ins that my neighbors and I have had recently. Last night my neighbors car was ransacked, last Wednesday my girlfriends coat was stolen from her car, and a couple weeks ago the police were called here about a suspicious person looking into the windows of our cars late at night by my neighbor. My neighbor and I are the only tenants here. We are above a martial arts studio, and there is an auto repair place next to us. Maryland is similar with it's laws regarding defense of property. The police are about 3-5 minutes out, which isn't bad, but I have no windows overlooking the lot to see if anyone is being suspicious before I walk down the steps. The police said just to call them, but that has been done a couple times already to no avail. What would be a good COA? The law-logic says to keep calling the police. The common sense part of me says to carry something with me besides a cell phone down to my car just in case I'm surprised by a crack addict. Any advice is greatly appreciated. BTW, this country is going to hell in a hand cart.

Move out.

TR

BryanK
12-03-2009, 18:04
Move out.

TR

I agree. The problem is, I'm locked into a lease that does not expire until Aug 2010. I have not brought up the issue with the landlord yet however. I will discuss this with him tomorrow. If I hit the mega millions, I will most assuredly move out with a sense of urgency :D

ZonieDiver
12-04-2009, 16:31
BTW, this country is going to hell in a hand cart.

From what I am experiencing - it is a BIG fricking hand cart, and it is moving very fast!

armymom1228
12-04-2009, 16:35
I agree. The problem is, I'm locked into a lease that does not expire until Aug 2010. I have not brought up the issue with the landlord yet however. I will discuss this with him tomorrow. If I hit the mega millions, I will most assuredly move out with a sense of urgency :D

you can get a baby monitor... cheap put it outback and turn it on just before you leave to go out and you can see the cars.

purchase your own motion dector lights.. a couple are cheap and can be run on batteries if necessary.

A camera that can be picked up by your computer same deal.

BryanK
12-07-2009, 05:54
you can get a baby monitor... cheap put it outback and turn it on just before you leave to go out and you can see the cars.

purchase your own motion dector lights.. a couple are cheap and can be run on batteries if necessary.

A camera that can be picked up by your computer same deal.

Thank you for the ideas armymom. I saw a few things at radio shack that could help with the surveillance part. The issue that remains is if one of these misguided souls :rolleyes: decides what he wants could be in the apartment.

Tourist
12-23-2009, 04:01
Guns and bad guys. You folks are worrying me for when I move to Florida in a couple of months........kidding.

I was a UK LEO for a while and here because the average cop is not armed you learn to deal with situations by reading the situation and using your mouth to de-escalate situations. The law, as it is written, is in most cases stoopid allowing much too much leeway to the bad guys. We have a guy here in the UK who was only last week sentenced to prison time for defending himself. This event on top of others has caused a mild public outrage and is resulting in a rewriting of the law on personal defence.

I was visiting Tampa a few years back and went out with a Tampa PD drugs unit and did some high risk warrants on dealers. One of the guys asked me if I had a gun on me, I told him "No I'm not allowed". He then told me he would not even go to the supermarket without a gun. I commented that what is the likelihood of something happening to me during my visit........yeah, right.

A couple of days later the wife and I are walking out of Walmart, I stop to pick up a newspaper and she is about 30 - 40yards ahead of me. In a relatively quiet carpark I ping a couple of scrotes moving in towards her from different directions. Now, you get the immediate adrenaline rush and you run the situation thru about 15 different permutations. So, I speeded up, not a run as I did'not want to attract attention, pulled my credentials with my left hand and put my right hand in a 'I have a hand on a pistol position'. The scrotes were about 5 yards from my good lady and I was around 10 yards from them. I then called out "Hey guys, I don't think the lady can help you". They turned looked at my credentials and my other hand and ran off to their car. I got the registration and passed on the details to the local sheriff. Apparently they had come down to the sunshine state from Detroit where the owner of the vehicle also had a couple of outstanding warrants.

Stingray
12-23-2009, 04:13
Story published in Topeka Capital Journal Online

By Mike Hall
Created December 21, 2009 at 5:37pm

Updated December 22, 2009 at 12:14am
For the first time, liquor store owner Cliff Cormier has said publicly he was the one who shot two would-be robbers in his store on Oct. 19.

And Shawnee County District Attorney Chad Taylor said Monday he is drafting a "clearance letter" to send to the Topeka Police Department saying no charges would be filed in connection with the shootings.

On Oct. 19, Rickie Loyd, 21, was shot and killed by someone inside Cormier Liquor, 2611 S.E. California, during a robbery attempt.

Until Monday nobody associated with the incident — not Clff or Janice Cormier, not law enforcement — would say who fired the shots.

Police said Cliff and Janice Cormier were present at the time of the robbery, as well as several customers.

Police say Loyd was attempting to rob the store. Another man with Loyd during the robbery attempt was shot in the shoulder but fled on foot. Three weeks later, Anthony Marshall III, 16, was arrested and charged in the robbery.

On Monday when Cliff Cormier was asked again who fired the shots, he first said he had no intention of ever saying. But then when his wife and business partner Janice said "Go ahead and tell him," Cliff said "I did."

He said he never had any thought any charges would be filed against him. He said he was assured by law enforcement people all along it was a clear case of self-defense.

When asked if he thought the incident would serve as a lesson to anyone else thinking of robbing a store, he said, "There was a lesson to be learned, but it should have been learned a long time ago."

He said he had been told the two men alleged to have been involved in the robbery of his store were believed responsible for a number of recent robberies in the city.

Taylor said he had dictated the clearance letter to the TPD and hoped to have it sent there this week.

Topeka Police Chief Ron Miller said no one in his department was involved in the decision on whether charges should be filed. He said it is his department's job to investigate the circumstances and submit the facts to the DA to decide whether any charges should be filed.

lindy
12-23-2009, 10:14
You're in downtown DC during daylight hours and you happen to stumble upon a large gathering of people at the intersection of 14th & U. You don't Twitter so you're actually clueless as to why they are there. Granted, large gathering in DC...IMHO, you should be at condition yellow.

You notice a H2 gets pelted by a few snowballs. Big whoop. H2 stops and driver exits vehicle with a pistol in his hand. A clearly agitated man wearing normal clothes is approaching you with weapon drawn but pointed at the ground.

What would you do?

Do you wait for him to raise the weapon at you or other person or has he ALREADY demonstrated hostile intent?

HowardCohodas
12-23-2009, 11:41
You're in downtown DC during daylight hours and you happen to stumble upon a large gathering of people at the intersection of 14th & U. You don't Twitter so you're actually clueless as to why they are there. Granted, large gathering in DC...IMHO, you should be at condition yellow.

You notice a H2 gets pelted by a few snowballs. Big whoop. H2 stops and driver exits vehicle with a pistol in his hand. A clearly agitated man wearing normal clothes is approaching you with weapon drawn but pointed at the ground.

What would you do?

Do you wait for him to raise the weapon at you or other person or has he ALREADY demonstrated hostile intent?

Other than it would be illegal for me to carry in DC, I'd be backing away. However, if I become "in fear of my life," I hope I have what it takes to remove that fear by whatever means at hand including inflicting lethal harm. I may be a CCW instructor, but I have no idea whether I have the mental ability to perform.

Sten
12-23-2009, 12:07
You're in downtown DC during daylight hours and you happen to stumble upon a large gathering of people at the intersection of 14th & U. You don't Twitter so you're actually clueless as to why they are there. Granted, large gathering in DC...IMHO, you should be at condition yellow.

You notice a H2 gets pelted by a few snowballs. Big whoop. H2 stops and driver exits vehicle with a pistol in his hand. A clearly agitated man wearing normal clothes is approaching you with weapon drawn but pointed at the ground.

What would you do?

Do you wait for him to raise the weapon at you or other person or has he ALREADY demonstrated hostile intent?

Approaching me or walking in my direction?

Who is to say he is not some form of Law.

In DC I have no carry rights and would not illegally carry so I am 100% firearm free. If I am alone (no kid or wife) I would just run like hell, if he starts shooting I am just another uninsured corpse on the 9:00 news. Add my wife and kid to the picture I send them running like hell and I get ready to make it a him or me deal.

The Reaper
12-23-2009, 13:45
Is anyone here informed as to the hiring standards of the DC Metro Police Department and their generally lax standards for officers, to include permissable arrest records?

TR

Defender968
12-23-2009, 14:25
Ok couple of things, crowd if full of idiots who threw snow balls at a moving vehicle which could be dangerous (i.e. broken windshield), were I the driver I'd be pissed too, however I would not have drawn a weapon, were they throwing bricks or flaming bottles, ok, snowballs, not so much.

Now if you watch the complete video the responding uniformed officer has his gun drawn and only holsters it once he realizes the H2 driver is an off duty LEO. Which leads me to believe the call came in as an irate driver waving a gun, the H2 Driver does have a radio and may be calling in his presence however the responding uniformed officer's initial actions lead me to believe the information was either not up channeled or their dispatch is slow, I don't know if this guy identified himself, I didn't see a badge in the video, I did see a radio, either way the gun was unnecessary given the facts that I know currently, that doesn't mean there isn't more too it but from what I've read his H2 got hit with snow balls, he got out pissed and gun in hand, I'll be looking for the police report (if one was generated to see if there was more too it). Also given the crowds actions it would not appear to me they were terribly violent from what I saw, so again the gun was not warranted

Now if I happen to be there when this goes down and he is walking towards me and hasn't identified himself as LE, I'm going to first be looking for some sort of cover and moving towards said cover and away from the threat while thinking about drawing at the appropriate time, specifically because he has his gun out already, he is in a tactically superior position, the best thing would be to try not give away the element of surpise or to present yourself as a threat until you can gain the upper hand... specifically I'd be trying to wait for his attention to be divided/off me, if he's focused on me I'd try to deescalate verbally....however

If/when I had an appropriate opportunity and if I was in fear of my life or for the lives of others (which I think may have been appropriate in this situation) I'd likely have drawn my weapon and loudly issue verbal commands to drop the weapon while I was aimed center mass, if he raises his, he gets dropped... period.

There are many lessons here, first of which if you're going to step out and act like Billy Bad Ass while off duty, out of uniform, and driving your POV you better identify yourself and have credentials in hand (and you shouldn't have a gun out unless there's a specific threat, which a snow ball is not IMHO), otherwise you look like just another pissed off idiot with a gun in hand and as such are a threat subject to neutralization by an on duty LEO who doesn't know you, an off duty LEO who doesn't know you, or a sheepdog who happens to be in the mix.

Second you need to let dispatch/control know you are there, what you are wearing and what you intentions are, this can all be done very quickly, especially if they are still using codes.

Bottom line IMO if there was nothing else going on besides a snow ball fight this LEO was out of line to have gun drawn, and further needlessly risked his life and the lives of the public by having his weapon un-holstered. If there was a reason to intervene as an LEO he should have identified himself as LEO, with credentials i.e. badge clearly visible, if the situation was bad enough to require a fire arm be drawn I'd have radioed/called dispatch to let them know my location, the situation, and most importantly my description, that way I'm not mistaken for a threat, it would appear that none of that happened here. At least looking at the video.

DISCLAIMER!!!!! This could have gone very badly, many innocent bystanders around, had shots been fired many innocents could have been hurt/killed, if you're not sure how to handle something like this but happen to have a CCW be very careful, you could get yourself and the public killed. Even as a prior LEO this whole thing makes me very uneasy.

Team Sergeant
12-23-2009, 14:42
Is anyone here informed as to the hiring standards of the DC Metro Police Department and their generally lax standards for officers, to include permissable arrest records?

TR

Oh come on, the next thing you're going to say is that the former Mayor of Washington D.C., (the captial of the United States of America), is a crack addict and a convicted felon!!!

HowardCohodas
12-23-2009, 14:55
Oh come on, the next thing you're going to say is that the former Mayor of Washington D.C., (the captial of the United States of America), is a crack addict and a convicted felon!!!

It could happen :rolleyes:

Maytime
12-23-2009, 15:58
I guess I have a question of semantics, but is displaying your firearm in your holster, with your hand on or off it, a form of brandishing? Such a situation may be where verbal warnings are not enough to diffuse, but lethal force is not yet needed or warranted.

I'm not sure if letting someone know that you have a weapon (and its position on your body) is wise, but if it's a legal way to diffuse a potential hostile situation, should it be used?

lindy
12-23-2009, 19:56
Is anyone here informed as to the hiring standards of the DC Metro Police Department and their generally lax standards for officers, to include permissable arrest records?

TR

I could only find this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/ramsey/ramsey_sun1.htm) from the late 90's.

You'll never guess who was Mayor at the time. Well, TS may be on the right track.

There's also a report on Deadly Force in DC (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police1page1.htm). Here's the lead paragraph:

The District of Columbia's Metropolitan Police Department has shot and killed more people per resident in the 1990s than any other large American city police force.

Regarding the situation of the snowball fight: we're living in a crazy world. High schools, colleges, Post Offices, shopping malls, and highways (road rage) have all seen gunfire by wackos. My first thought was that no cop would pull his weapon because his vehicle was hit by some snowballs. My logic tells me that if he isn't a cop (my stereotype is that cops use verbal threats before going to the gun) then he's a wacko. He's angry, he has a weapon in his hand, and is thereby unpredictable. I say he is a threat.

Are there thoughts thwarting my threat thinking? ;) Who brings a snowball to a gunfight anyway?

Here's the reality: Detective Baylor is a LEO who is authorized to carry in EVERY state.

Be safe.

IrishYanksFan
12-23-2009, 20:09
In DC I have no carry rights

Didn't Heller v. District of Columbia rule their gun laws unconstitutional, or did the DC City Council already replace them with something almost as harsh and technically within constitutional bounds?

The Reaper
12-23-2009, 20:21
Didn't Heller v. District of Columbia rule their gun laws unconstitutional, or did the DC City Council already replace them with something almost as harsh and technically within constitutional bounds?

No.

You need to do a search for Heller and do some reading.

TR

Defender968
12-23-2009, 23:16
I guess I have a question of semantics, but is displaying your firearm in your holster, with your hand on or off it, a form of brandishing? Such a situation may be where verbal warnings are not? enough to diffuse, but lethal force is not yet needed or warranted.?

Are you speaking of an LEO doing this or you as a private citizen/CCW?

I'm assuming you mean as a private citizen, it would depend on the state, but it could be.


I'm not sure if letting someone know that you have a weapon (and its position on your body) is wise, but if it's a legal way to diffuse a potential hostile situation, should it be used?

Ok first letting anyone know you're carrying especially a threat is a very, very, very bad idea, second showing a weapon is a nearly sure fired way to escalate, not diffuse a situation, do not under any circumstances show a weapon in order to try to bring calm to a heated situation it will not have the effect you want, and you will likely go to jail or end up in a gun fight.

Maytime
12-24-2009, 03:11
Thanks for the input Defender, I appreciate it.

dr. mabuse
12-29-2009, 00:55
Definitely depends on the state you're in.

If you can talk your way out, do it.

Don't EVER be in a position where an LEO can determine that you escalated a situation so you could wave your gun around.

Generally, you display/present a firearm only if it is legally appropriate to shoot anyway.

kgoerz
12-29-2009, 06:42
I guess I have a question of semantics, but is displaying your firearm in your holster, with your hand on or off it, a form of brandishing? Such a situation may be where verbal warnings are not enough to diffuse, but lethal force is not yet needed or warranted.

I'm not sure if letting someone know that you have a weapon (and its position on your body) is wise, but if it's a legal way to diffuse a potential hostile situation, should it be used?

I'm not a Cop anymore. But when I was. If I see a Weapon on you. I am drawing down on you. You will get one warning. If you make one hesitant move or don't obey my commands immediately. You will most likely get shot. This is the mentality of most Cops. Cops are told to do this every day in their roll calls.
Concealed carry means just that. You carry for your protection. Only if your life is threatened. Your job is not to defuse arguments. Or get involved in other peoples arguments or fights. Pull it out in any other situation and you become the threat.

Streck-Fu
12-29-2009, 07:43
You will most likely get shot. This is the mentality of most Cops. Cops are told to do this every day in their roll calls.
Concealed carry means just that. You carry for your protection. Only if your life is threatened.

With regards to the concept of 'concealed' carry:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, There are states like Virginia in which you may not carry concealed all the time. If you enter into a restaurant that serves alcohol, you must uncover the weapon and expose it only to cover it again upon leaving (strange, I know....).
Other states like Indiana, Vermont (no defined carry laws at all), and Alaska (I believe) permit open carry. Now, tactically speaking, I believe that concealed is the best way to carry so that you are not broadcasting to the world to include any potential threats.
But, in places like Virginia, that's not always possible.

Sten
12-29-2009, 07:51
I'm not a Cop anymore. But when I was. If I see a Weapon on you. I am drawing down on you. You will get one warning. If you make one hesitant move or don't obey my commands immediately. You will most likely get shot. This is the mentality of most Cops. Cops are told to do this every day in their roll calls.
Concealed carry means just that. You carry for your protection. Only if your life is threatened. Your job is not to defuse arguments. Or get involved in other peoples arguments or fights. Pull it out in any other situation and you become the threat.

Great advise, thank you.

ChickenMcFuggit
01-11-2010, 15:22
Most advice on this thread is right on the money IMHO. Good train of thought is, if you can articulate the threat you felt and why, you're in the right ball park self defense wise. LEO's develop a mind set that keeps us on condition yellow most of the time and stands us in good stead when bad things happen to good people. A book I once read might help those of you who don't face threats daily. I reccommend it highly to everyone. Its focus is on mind set and that is half the battle.

http://www.selfdefenseresource.com/general/articles/book-review-strong-on-defense.php

Arctic
01-14-2010, 06:51
This is a very well put together thread. The only thing I think was missed was the inclusion of lawyers in the after action. Regardless of your individual rights to carry and the state you live in; as soon as you draw a weapon and fire it in a public space or residence you need a lawyer. You should not talk to the police or anyone regardless of how clean and well defined the shoot was without an attorney. You need to know your Miranda rights; they can’t force you to talk without an attorney. It doesn’t matter if the guy you shot was a meth head raping your mother with a knife to her throat, it is never about what the situation was but what it can be made to be. Consider also that almost everyone on earth has a relative that can come after you in civil court and if they don’t you always have to worry about the DA.

My family has been defending “LEO’s” in California for the last 33 years, my father being a vet turned LEO turned lawyer its one of the things he enjoys most. (Tho he sends lesser mortals to deal with the shots fired at 3 in the morning cases now.)

HowardCohodas
01-14-2010, 08:06
This is a very well put together thread. The only thing I think was missed was the inclusion of lawyers in the after action. Regardless of your individual rights to carry and the state you live in; as soon as you draw a weapon and fire it in a public space or residence you need a lawyer. You should not talk to the police or anyone regardless of how clean and well defined the shoot was without an attorney. You need to know your Miranda rights; they can’t force you to talk without an attorney. It doesn’t matter if the guy you shot was a meth head raping your mother with a knife to her throat, it is never about what the situation was but what it can be made to be. Consider also that almost everyone on earth has a relative that can come after you in civil court and if they don’t you always have to worry about the DA.


As you wish.

Don't Talk to the Police - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik)
Don't Talk to the Police - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE)

I show at least part one in the CCW classes I teach.

craigepo
01-14-2010, 09:38
Howard, do you ever teach the "castle doctrine", or is that relevant in your jurisdiction?

FWIW, there is a good reason to not discuss matters until you have talked with an attorney(besides the obvious). In court, rules of evidence are used to either admit or deny the introduction of evidence to the court/jury, whether statements, objects, or other. Hearsay is defined as "an out-of-court statement, made by a person, NOT A PARTY, used to prove the truth of the matter asserted. An admission, on the other hand, is an out-of-court statement made by a party(of course used to prove a matter relevant at trial).

So, when Jack Webb was telling people "you have the right to remain silent, what you say can and will be used against you in a court of law", he was essentially explaining to them that if they are criminally charged, they become a "party" and anything they say, at any relevant time, becomes admissible. The conversation about whether the Miranda warnings are constitutionally proper I will save for a later time, but essentially a failure of a policeman to properly Miranda-ize a criminal defendant often forces a court to throw out relevant admissions made by a criminal defendant.

On the other hand, an out-of-court statement made by a person who is not a party (person not charged or sued) is, generally, hearsay, and inadmissible unless it falls within a few narrow exceptions.

In sum---if you experience an instance where you might be charged or sued, shut up. If you are just a witness, help the cops.

My apologies for the hip-pocket evidence class.

logisticsclerk
02-02-2010, 20:54
Greetings to all,

This is an interesting take on the subject. What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8493092.stm

wet dog
02-02-2010, 21:42
Greetings to all,

This is an interesting take on the subject. What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8493092.stm

From the article...

The work aims to answer why the first to draw his gun in a shoot-out was often the one to get shot.

My answer, as it applies to me only is.

"Fast is not fast, slow is smooth and smooth is fast".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awskKWzjlhk

The Reaper
02-02-2010, 21:51
Greetings to all,

This is an interesting take on the subject. What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8493092.stm

Because the first to draw was probably the criminal or an amateur trying to gun down a pro.

I do not think that reaction time has anything to do with it. You cannot ourdraw a guy with his gun already in his hand. He is inside your OODA Loop. All you can hope to do is to be more effective when you finally manage to take action. All of the firearms and reaction time research I have ever seen indicates that the person initiating the action is almost always faster than the reaction, since the initiator has no response to beat, and the reactor does. Watch a drag race. If you were keying off of the movement of your opponent's car, rather than the tree, you would be at a significant disadvantage. Time to recognize and decide to act adds several tenths of a second to the response.

Drawing is not the same as hitting. I would not expect the Brit media to understand that difference.

"Speed is fine, accuracy is final."

TR

Kenneth White
02-04-2010, 23:22
Decision making process of when to draw, or not draw. I can only speak for myself. I carry a firearm as a part of my job. I am goven by the laws of the State of Georgia.
I pick my firearm up from my lock box. I have the only key. I check all parts of my firearm. It all way loaded. I place it in it holder. I secure it in that holder. I do not take it from it holder. I make a secure DZ around my firearm. I do not take it out to show to no one. I do not allow any one to get with-in the safe zone I have made around my firearm. When I return home. I check my firearm. I unload it. I clean it. I reload it. I return it to it lock box.
If I pull my firearm, it will be for one reason and one reason only. I have made up my mine. I am going home at the end of my duty day. Someone eles, due to their action, will not be going home. If you have a legal right to pull it you better use it.
This is not legal advice. I don't draw, and show. If I am forced to draw that force will die.
Ken

DonovanM
03-08-2010, 01:50
All of the questions I had regarding when to draw as a CPL holder were answered by reading Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" and David Kenik's "Armed Response".

Please for the love of all that is holy have all of your questions answered before carrying a firearm in public. As was mentioned earlier, hesitation is not your friend.

...


Great username. Kind of like having "SLEEPR" as your license plate :rolleyes:

moutinman
03-08-2010, 11:12
Great thread subject that I think many who carry don't think through fully. The two simple rules I have always gone by with regards to concealed carry are this:

1. Draw only if I'm going to use it.

2. If I have to think, "should I draw?" then I probably shouldn't. If your life is in imminent danger, you will know it.

Just my thoughts.....

rthorne57
09-24-2010, 01:22
Sorry to bring up an older thread, but I would like to share a personal experience with you all just to give you an idea of what is possible. I'll try to make it short..

I'm driving to work on a Monday morning, carrying a Glock 19 on my hip as usual.
It was a nice cool day with light traffic so I had the windows down while cruising when a driver and male occupant of a Dodge truck pull of next to me. I'll spare the details, but he had some bad road rage for some unknown reason. I'm a few blocks from work as we come to a red light and there's not a car in sight. In my head I thought, "If this a-hole is going to do anything, this is where it's going to happen." As we come to a stop, I'm watching him out of the corner of my eye, trying not to make eye contact. I see the driver door swing open, and I immediately unholstered my gun straight up (like a low ready but high on my chest), keeping my finger indexed and muzzle pointed down. As soon as the driver's foot hit the ground and he looked in my window, he froze. He slowly crawled back in his truck and proceeded to make a right turn. I turned left to go to work and I thought it was all over.

15min later my decision to draw would come back to bite me in the ass, BIG TIME. Two rookie county constables came in the office after they ID'd my vehicle outside and immediately had me put my hands on the desk AT GUN POINT while his partner disarmed me and put me in cuffs. I found out that the two occupants of the truck reported to the police that I was pointing the gun at them and turned the story around saying I was the one with road rage, cussing at yelling at them and that "they were in fear for their lives". I made the mistake of trying to talk with the police thinking they would see the truth and maybe give me a slap on the wrist, but I could see they already made up their minds and were treating me like a damn criminal and threatening me with all kinds of shit. The two males came to my work and ID'd me as the driver and I was placed under arrest. The arresting charge was Aggrevated Assault with a Deadly Weapon!!! which is a class 2 Felony. That sounds lovely, doesn't it?? I spent 2 days in jail, and got out on $30,000 bond. In court, I was able to get the charge reduced to a misdemeanor Deadly Conduct. Geez, that sounds a lot better! :rolleyes: I might have been able to get the hole charge dropped but it was 2 words against mine and I got royally screwed. And the charge came with a bonus too - 2 years probation, seeing a probation officer every month, 80 community service, and my gun was destroyed as evidence. Not to mention stripped of my CHL and I have to wait 5years to reapply!!!

So, like some have said, displaying a gun won't necessarily get you out of a situation. If you have to think about drawing, then you probably shouldn't. It should be a reaction instead. I hope this has opened your eyes a bit. Don't expect LEOs to take your side and think they will trust you because you have a carry licence.

wet dog
09-24-2010, 08:59
....and the charge came with a bonus too - 2 years probation, seeing a probation officer every month, 80 community service, and my gun was destroyed as evidence. Not to mention stripped of my CHL and I have to wait 5years to reapply!!!

So, like some have said, displaying a gun won't necessarily get you out of a situation. If you have to think about drawing, then you probably shouldn't. It should be a reaction instead. I hope this has opened your eyes a bit. Don't expect LEOs to take your side and think they will trust you because you have a carry licence.

Sorry to hear the news, but thanks for the "story".

Noquarter
09-24-2010, 17:25
Sorry to bring up an older thread, but I would like to share a personal experience with you all just to give you an idea of what is possible. I'll try to make it short..

I'm driving to work on a Monday morning, carrying a Glock 19 on my hip as usual.
It was a nice cool day with light traffic so I had the windows down while cruising when a driver and male occupant of a Dodge truck pull of next to me. I'll spare the details, but he had some bad road rage for some unknown reason. I'm a few blocks from work as we come to a red light and there's not a car in sight. In my head I thought, "If this a-hole is going to do anything, this is where it's going to happen." As we come to a stop, I'm watching him out of the corner of my eye, trying not to make eye contact. I see the driver door swing open, and I immediately unholstered my gun straight up (like a low ready but high on my chest), keeping my finger indexed and muzzle pointed down. As soon as the driver's foot hit the ground and he looked in my window, he froze. He slowly crawled back in his truck and proceeded to make a right turn. I turned left to go to work and I thought it was all over.

15min later my decision to draw would come back to bite me in the ass, BIG TIME. Two rookie county constables came in the office after they ID'd my vehicle outside and immediately had me put my hands on the desk AT GUN POINT while his partner disarmed me and put me in cuffs. I found out that the two occupants of the truck reported to the police that I was pointing the gun at them and turned the story around saying I was the one with road rage, cussing at yelling at them and that "they were in fear for their lives". I made the mistake of trying to talk with the police thinking they would see the truth and maybe give me a slap on the wrist, but I could see they already made up their minds and were treating me like a damn criminal and threatening me with all kinds of shit. The two males came to my work and ID'd me as the driver and I was placed under arrest. The arresting charge was Aggrevated Assault with a Deadly Weapon!!! which is a class 2 Felony. That sounds lovely, doesn't it?? I spent 2 days in jail, and got out on $30,000 bond. In court, I was able to get the charge reduced to a misdemeanor Deadly Conduct. Geez, that sounds a lot better! :rolleyes: I might have been able to get the hole charge dropped but it was 2 words against mine and I got royally screwed. And the charge came with a bonus too - 2 years probation, seeing a probation officer every month, 80 community service, and my gun was destroyed as evidence. Not to mention stripped of my CHL and I have to wait 5years to reapply!!!

So, like some have said, displaying a gun won't necessarily get you out of a situation. If you have to think about drawing, then you probably shouldn't. It should be a reaction instead. I hope this has opened your eyes a bit. Don't expect LEOs to take your side and think they will trust you because you have a carry licence.


I've been a police officer for a rather large PD for the last 15 years. I've heard my fair share of stories, and quite frankly, yours stinks. You said you'd spare us the details, unfortunately, the devil IS in the details.

1. Road rage for some "unknown" reason? Right..
2. No other motor vehicles around you? So you weren't pinned in with no avenue to escape? So you were forced to draw your firearm in order to save your life? Save your life from one (1) person approaching you? Was the other guy armed too?
3. 15 minutes later the police arrive at your work? Well sir, guilty people rarely call the police to report a crime against them. I'm not saying it's never happened. Hell, I've had to go speak with junkies reporting another junkie ripped them off. But seriously, is a guilty person willing to perform a showup, or testify in a court of law? Hardly. Given a lighter sentence? Happens all the time. Plea to a lesser charge; saves the courts time and money.

I'd say the "rooks" showed the right amount of caution. After all, you did show a propensity for drawing your firearm over nothing. This makes you unstable and dangerous in my book.

If there's more to the story, you should have put it in. As for now, it doesn't pass the taste test.

The Reaper
09-24-2010, 21:09
Have to agree.

Lots of missing details in that story, from what caused the road rage to how the cops tracked you to your office in only 15 minutes.

I could kill 20 people from my front porch and leave 20 more as witnesses with cell phones and it would still take them 15 minutes to find me sitting there.

A tag number will only lead them to your home, normally, and most home addresses do not lead to the resident's employment address.

You must have a very distinctive car for them to be able to spot it and track you down.

Most state CCW laws require explaining during the initial training the rules about brandishing a firearm.

You are in a car, why sit there and wait for the situation to develop?

I would agree that when there are three versions of a story, the two closest ones tend to be the most credible.

TR

Paslode
09-24-2010, 22:02
as we come to a red light and there's not a car in sight.


1. If there were no other cars in sight, it would appear there no other vehicles to prevent you from leaving the scene.

Why didn't you drive off?

2. Did you have the opportunity to report the incident to the authorities during or after incident?




Similar story,

Prior to the ready access to cell phones Pipe fitter Bill was driving home early one morning on lonely and narrow Barry Road in Clay County, MO. A truck full of White Boys repeatedly tried to run him off the road while Pipe Fitter Bill tried to evade them. Finally Pipe fitter Bill pulled out his 44 Mag, held it out the window and fired. He put all the occupants in the hospital. Bill immediately turned himself into the authorities, spent several hours in jail, all serious charges against him were dismissed. I believe the only fine he received was for not having the revolver registered.

The injured White Boys were all charged with a crime.

Lanyard
09-24-2010, 22:09
1. Road rage for some "unknown" reason? Right.. Happened to me this summer.
2. No other motor vehicles around you? So you weren't pinned in with no avenue to escape? So you were forced to draw your firearm in order to save your life? Save your life from one (1) person approaching you? Was the other guy armed too? In a Texas truck I think you should assume this, in a west Texas truck it's a guarantee. If you think trouble is coming I think it's better to choose the ground.
3. 15 minutes later the police arrive at your work? Well sir, guilty people rarely call the police to report a crime against them. Most crimes are not reported. Unless I need the report for insurance or there is blood somewhere, it is a waste of my time. Why call the police if nothing happened? Why lead a potential threat to your work? Maybe you aren't sure everything you did was legal. Why start the paperwork and in some jurisdictions the locals are less than helpful . Gary Fadden. I'm not saying it's never happened. Hell, I've had to go speak with junkies reporting another junkie ripped them off. But seriously, is a guilty person willing to perform a showup, or testify in a court of law? Hardly. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Would you risk a FELONY conviction on "hardly"? If you are convicted of a felony how easy is a civil case to follow? There could be a very profitable reason to show up and lie. Given a lighter sentence? Happens all the time. Plea to a lesser charge; saves the courts time and money.

This entire situation happened to a off duty cop friend in the early 80's. One exception being that his sidearm never left the holster. But he had his hand on his gun and was looking the jerk right in the eyes.

Noquarter
09-25-2010, 11:18
Happened to me this summer.
2. In a Texas truck I think you should assume this, in a west Texas truck it's a guarantee. If you think trouble is coming I think it's better to choose the ground.
3. Most crimes are not reported. Unless I need the report for insurance or there is blood somewhere, it is a waste of my time. Why call the police if nothing happened? Why lead a potential threat to your work? Maybe you aren't sure everything you did was legal. Why start the paperwork and in some jurisdictions the locals are less than helpful . Gary Fadden. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Would you risk a FELONY conviction on "hardly"? If you are convicted of a felony how easy is a civil case to follow? There could be a very profitable reason to show up and lie.

This entire situation happened to a off duty cop friend in the early 80's. One exception being that his sidearm never left the holster. But he had his hand on his gun and was looking the jerk right in the eyes.

1. I have to reiterate my earlier statement. Road rage does not happen for no reason. You did something, whether perceived or real, known or unknown, to piss someone off.
2. Fair enough, like I said the devil's in the details. Put it in. Much like the ADA's say to us: if it's not in your report, it didn't happen.
3. Maybe I didn't articulate myself correctly. I was refering to the good ole boys in the truck as the "guilty" party. If they were guilty, or wrong (for initiating this incident), why would they immediatley report it to law enforcement? If they were wrong, why would they go to the OP's workplace and positively ID him as the assailant? If they were wrong, why would they agree to press charges and testify, under oath, in a court of law? You say there's a "profitable" reason. Sorry, I just don't see there being any. None if it makes sense. People aren't that complicated my friend. People are, in general, very simplistic. If something doesn't make sense, someone's full of shit.

That right there, is a big exception.

I'm not calling rthorne57 an outright liar. But what he wrote, without more, doesn't make sense.

Paslode
09-25-2010, 12:00
1. I have to reiterate my earlier statement. Road rage does not happen for no reason. You did something, whether perceived or real, known or unknown, to piss someone off.



Of the 4 occasions I recall having been involved in a road rage incident......I was in 3 of those incidents an active participant i.e. antagonist :eek: In all 4 incidents I had the opportunity to make a the choice to continue the stupidity or to neutralize the situation by slowing down, taking an exit, pulling over and/or driving away.

And the many times I have witnessed road rage....all have had two active participants.

It would be my opinion that in many instances as soon as one party leaves their vehicle to confront the other party, the party remaining in the vehicle immediately has control of the situation.....you can drive away, or run the person over.

If by chance the person leaves their vehicle brandishing a weapon, then you might have reasonable cause for the use of deadly force.

Sten
09-25-2010, 15:00
So to wrap up the lesson on road rage, if you have the ability to drive off, do so.

Call 911 if you can not drive off. Report everything you know up to that point to the 911 operator.

Pull only if you see the other dude has a deadly weapon (getting out of the car is a foregone conclusion)?

Sten
09-25-2010, 18:24
Adding the wisdom from the costco thread.

If I am ever in the unfortunate situation where I am "in contact with the law", I am not touching my firearm no matter what I hear. I am going to as TS postulated, keeping my fingers interlocked on top of head and going to wait for them to disarm me.

rthorne57
09-25-2010, 20:10
OK, way too many responses from this...

First off, I wouldn't openly post on a forum a completely twisted story for no reason. What would I or anyone have to gain from that? I could have easily posted that "I accidently cut him off and he got pissed off and he showed a gun so I defended myself". What I posted was what happened and shouldn't be judged. I was younger and dumber at the time and have never been put in that situation. If I'm 30yards away from you and come charging full speed, are you going to run away? Scream for help? Most likely not. It's easy to say what someone should do in a situation from the outside. I wasn't thinking about them reporting me to the police, let alone a felony charge.

That being said, I spared the details to be brief and to the point; it's just in my nature. I never said "road rage for NO reason", I clearly said "some UNKNOWN reason"...which is another way of saying, I don't know what I did to piss this guy off.

All I recall is that I was following him, playing follow the leader, through the slower traffic on the highway. This "highway" is a 4 lane country road, not to be confused with a major freeway. Once we passed the other cars he started to slow down so I changed lanes to pass him. Upon passing him he yelled something at me, which was inaudible. I looked back at him and he's still yelling, but I ignore it and press on. Maybe he didn't like how close I was following him? That's all I can come up with. He speeds up next to me and starts cussing to get my attention, so I just rolled up my windows. Half a mile later of the same nonesence is where I came to the red light intersection and the rest you know. There is no exit ramp, just a side of the road or attempt to make a u-turn. At the time that we were stopped, my focus was on the door flying open - not waiting to see if a gun could be in his hand which by then it would be too late for me.

I work a mile away from the intersection and at 9am in the morning there's only 2-3 cars in the parking lot on 500 acres of land, which is clearly visible from the road. Doesn't take Columbo to spot my black truck on 20" wheels. The cops come from in-town which means if my truck didn't pass them then I pulled over somewhere. I talked with the police and was honest and told them I withdrew my weapon, and they jumped to the conclusion that draw= point at. They told 2 other cops that showed up, "yeah he admitted it, he's going to jail now". I had to repeatedly say I didn't point it at them but we were going around in circles and they would hardly give me a chance to talk without butting in or another cop threatening me. A third officer showed up and actually took me into custody after I explained to him what happened all over again.

One thing I should have made clear is that the 2 males never had to appear in court, thus never has to testify. My lawyer got a copy of the arrest report and what screwed me is that the 2 arresting officers wrote that I admitted pointing my gun at them and only the 3rd officer (who took my into custody) wrote that I said I didn't. My lawyer, who was an ex DA, laid it all out for me and said "Look, I've won some I should have lost and lost some I should have won. We can go to trial but the report doesn't look good and it matches what the 2 "victims" said". He said he would talk with the DA to get it reduced because after weighing my options I could easily lose in the trial which means 2 years in federal prison with Lord knows how much in fines and community service hours. The thing that scared me the most was having the felony conviction on my record. Goodbye decent jobs, goodbye apartments, goodbye school, and couldn't ever think about a career in the military; I'm screwed for life. I swallowed my pride, plead guilty and took the lesser charge.

@ Noquarter - the constables coming running in like they were in a GD shoot house playing wannabe SWAT. Stick up for them if you want; they over reacted.


I must have told this story 15 times to close friends and family, the police, lawer, investigator, and recruiter and honestly wish I could have reacted different, but the fact is I didn't. It was a stupid mistake and now I'm paying for it. I think about it all the time and I missed out on too many opportunities because of my misdemeanor. Frankly, I don't need to be judged or labeled, I just wanted to share that story. I don't care if you all can't make sense of it.

nmap
09-25-2010, 21:37
Rthorne57, please understand that I'm not in any way criticizing - I am just asking to learn, since one never knows when one might find oneself in similar circumstances.

Why did you go to work? In hindsight, if you had known then what you know now, would you have avoided pulling into your workplace? What else might you have done differently?

Decoy_Octopus
10-09-2010, 01:44
fraggo

blue02hd
10-09-2010, 02:39
OK, way too many responses from this...

What I posted was what happened and shouldn't be judged,,,,,

Frankly, I don't need to be judged or labeled, I just wanted to share that story. I don't care if you all can't make sense of it.

Your last response is forming a pattern, and it is well reflective of you and your mindset. You are in the company of some learned and experienced men. I agree, you are now more experienced for your story, and now criminal record, but you still are failing to forecast 2nd and 3rd order effects of your decisions.

You already demonstrated that you were not mature enough to carry a weapon, now it seems now you are demonstrating that you're not mature enough to listen to experienced advice. I am wondering what exactly is the intent of your post now?

We call it Big Boy Rules on the Teams. You are ultimately 100% responsible for your own actions, and are expected to man up when you make a mistake. Big Boys do not blame other drivers, Rookie Cops, or cheap assed lazy lawyers.


I guess perhaps THAT'S the morale of your story?

Did you consider the possibility that the other driver may have been armed as well? A felony charge may have been a gift and you don't even realize it.

99meters
10-09-2010, 04:30
What else might you have done differently?

If you don't have a realy good understanding of the laws concerning "your situation", don't talk to the cops without a lawyer.

akv
10-09-2010, 08:41
Blue02hd- Entire Post

stoic wisdom


If you don't have a realy good understanding of the laws concerning "your situation", don't talk to the cops without a lawyer.

Sir, this seems common sense advice, but when regarding this question I've also heard conflicting advice from LEO? Specifically experienced LEO have told me when responding to say a home defense shooting, their perception is folks who immediately start lawyering up from the get go generally have something to hide. Obviously the truth matters, but so does the perception of the responding LEO? Specifically every cop in America is swamped with more cases than he should be, there will of course be an investigation, but the officers perception of what occurred and the way he presents the case plays no small part in determining which cases go to grand jury?

The Reaper
10-09-2010, 09:00
stoic wisdom

Sir, this seems common sense advice, but when regarding this question I've also heard conflicting advice from LEO? Specifically experienced LEO have told me when responding to say a home defense shooting, their perception is folks who immediately start lawyering up from the get go generally have something to hide. Obviously the truth matters, but so does the perception of the responding LEO? Specifically every cop in America is swamped with more cases than he should be, there will of course be an investigation, but the officers perception of what occurred and the way he presents the case plays no small part in determining which cases go to grand jury?

The fact that you "lawyered up" cannot be used against you in court.

Your own statements can, and probably will, if they will hurt your case.

Not cop bashing here, but things can go seriously askew, even when you have done nothing wrong and are trying to help, much less after you have killed another human being and are standing there in front of the cops with a smoking gun in your hands, still high on adrenaline and they are asking for a statement. Most LEOs I know who have been involved in shootings "lawyer up" as well before making any statements themselves. Several of them have cited the stress of the event and asked for some time (several hours to a day or more) before making any statements, and then only with the union lawyer or their own present.

Not saying we should adopt the "no snitches" perspective of the 'hood. I want to help the police solve their case as well. I just don't want to go to jail for my efforts. And starting off with a gun and a wounded or dead adversary is thin ice to begin with.

I suggest that all members of this board take a little time and watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

And the rebuttal argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related

TR

dr. mabuse
10-09-2010, 12:24
Exactly what TR said plus.

When the police arrive and you're in shock and rattled, there is a real threat that you may confuse what your emotional reality is vs what really happened. You can confuse the two at that critical moment and what you know now is not what you experienced then.

Explain to the officers that you'll answer all their questions with your attorney present but are nauseated/sick/dizzy right now. Remember, once you say something to them and it may make you look bad, they can't hand it back or disregard it.

Never seen "lawerying up" be a bad thing for an innocent victim in Dallas County. Have seen "not lawyering up" be a very bad thing for an innocent victim.

Stay safe.

Axe
10-09-2010, 12:51
The LAST time in the world you want to make the most important statement you will probably ever make in your life (about a shooting) is immediately following what is likely the most traumatic event of your life when you are in your most vulnerable state of mind.

The only person you should be telling the story to following any serious event like a shooting is your attorney.

Team Sergeant
10-09-2010, 15:10
The LAST time in the world you want to make the most important statement you will probably ever make in your life (about a shooting) is immediately following what is likely the most traumatic event of your life when you are in your most vulnerable state of mind.

The only person you should be telling the story to following any serious event like a shooting is your attorney.

Only if I were to miss.;)

Axe
10-09-2010, 17:30
Only if I were to miss.;)

LMAO!:)

You and the members of PS.com help make up the small percentage of the population to whom my comment wouldn't apply as written, TS.