View Full Version : New duty Pistol
We have had nothing but problems with our SIG229 Pistols. This is not a bash Sig thread. I have had a P220 for a few years and it has never failed me.
Even after we sent them back to get refurbished we are still encountering broken extractors and take down pins. We are now looking at changing over. It takes more then just going out and buying new ones. More then likely we will have to stay with .40 Cal.
What were looking at.
1. Springfield XD
2. Glock 22
3. HK USP
4. There is also talk about the new Smith and Wesson. Don't even know what its called.
We know the Glock works. What I am looking for is test data on the Springfield XD. Or the HK. I saw all the positive feedback on here. But I will need actual Data to sell either the XD or HK over the Glock. Or the name of an Agency/Unit that has been using these.
Peregrino
03-26-2009, 18:30
KG - Good luck with the XD. I wish I had the test data to support your quest. Can you contact Springfield or are there conflict issues?
FWIW, If you can get it approved, you'll be very pleased. The XDm in .40 is the best "tactical tupperware" I've ever played with. Glocks aren't even in the same game. Everybody I've recommended one to has been happy with the choice. I've had my XDs long enough that I'm ready to start "tweaking", something that's not really needed with the XDm. I'm putting Springer Precision trigger kits I just got delivered from Brownells in this weekend. Night sights are next.
#4 - You're probably referring to the S&W M&P. It's also gaining a decent reputation (recommended by a respected friend) but I have no personal experience.
tom kelly
03-26-2009, 19:14
First, Forget about Glock's in .40 cal. THEY DO NOT HAVE A FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER, so you have to be very careful of the ammunition you fire from it. Second The Phila. Police Dept. uses Glocks in 9mm but have recently given permission to all officers to upgrade to .40 cal. or .45 GAP at their own expense. The only reason the city uses Glocks is PRICE! I have two .40 cal. pistols an XDM Springfield and a Les Baer Custom HC .40 That has a capacity of 18 + 1 However, it is very expensive with the add on Tritium night sights & the PA. sales tax (7%) the cost is @ $ 3700. Also it is very tempermental as to ammo selection that it will run without a stopage. After trying 5 different brands of ammo the gun would fire 3 rounds and not go into full battery on the 4th round. The slide and barrel are on the way back to LBC in LeClaire, Iowa for what Les Baer thinks is a further reaming of the Kart 5 inch 4350 steel chrome molly barrel. This barrel does have a fully supported chamber. The chamber pressures of the .40 cal S&W run between 32,000 and 35,000 psi so having a fully supported barrel is an extra margin of safety. The XDM Springfield is a good solid reliable pistol and the cost is very reasonable $599 and it comes with extra gear. The capacity of the .40 is 16 + 1. The gun shoots 2.5 to 3.0 inch groups at 25 yds. Digests all types of ammo without a stoppage so far, I have @ 1500 rounds thru it to date. Springfield offers a custom carry package rounded edges, tritium night sights and a 4.5 lb trigger for $260. Regard's, tom kelly
KG, have you heard if the FAMs are running into the same problems you guys are having with the SIGs?
D9 (RIP)
03-26-2009, 21:09
I have an XD 40.
7 years, 5000+ rounds and only a handful of failure to feeds (maybe 3) where the slide needed a tap.
I recommend this pistol. Good ergonomics. Combat oriented and simple.
I love the USP. I also have a Sig and never had any problems with it. Is it bad parts due to lowest bidder or what?
KG, have you heard if the FAMs are running into the same problems you guys are having with the SIGs?
Not that I heard of.
This is all a big help. Just what I am looking for. Also, thanks for the PM'S everyone.
Blitzzz (RIP)
03-27-2009, 06:35
I have come to rely on Ruger for no problem shooting.
I have a Walther P99 (40), A Beretta 92 (9mm), Colt 1911, Springfield XD (40), Ruger Blackhawk (44mag), mark 1 (22), and a P97DC (45).
Absolutely love the Ruger's dependability, but I'm not a Pistolaro.
Blitzzz
The Reaper
03-27-2009, 08:59
KG, have you heard if the FAMs are running into the same problems you guys are having with the SIGs?
Last I heard, the FAMs had the 229s, but in .357 SIG rather than .40.
TR
That "new" S&W may be their M&P...
My wife works for NCDOC, and they traded in their old .38 revolvers for these -in .40S&W- some time ago. She isn't the most qualified cat on the firing line, <Edit: certainly, I am not either.> but she said it was easy to shoot & hit with... She keeps jawboning about trading in her personal GP100 .357 3" for one, either a compact or duty-size, but hasn't taken the logical next step... actually doing it.
FWIW Last Friday I got stuck in the grocery line with a gent wearing a "DOC Instructor" polo shirt. I asked him what he thought, and he spoke favorably... offered that he bought one for himself (duty-size) & was satisfied.
One caveat - grain of salt included... NCDOC was dangled a carrot by S&W: "Free" training ammunition for a year if they got the M&Ps. I normally am not a fan of lowest-bidder type arrangements, but that seems to be the nature of the beast when dealing with (many) governmental agencies.
I'd say the M&P is the best polymer framed pistol in its price range now. It's trigger needs work for competition type use, but for duty use its fine as is. I recommend it to everyone who asks me what type of pistol they should buy for personal use. They have a good LE discount, should be able to get them for around low 400's.
It's striker fired and in the 9/40 doesn't have a thumb safety, one can be had on the 45 version though. I have one of the 45's and the trigger pull was pretty long. Don't remember what I gauged it as but it was around 8-10 I beileve.
The thing that sets it apart for me at least its its bore axis. It is extremely quick on follow up shots. The bore is pretty much in line with your hand. As such, muzzle flip is drastically reduced compared to the H&K or SIG. I also have an H&K fullsize 40 and with the jetfunnel mag system its nice as it has a round count of 16. The new XDm however also has the same round count and its in a newer designed weapon so obviously theres some nice traits to be had.
The H&K is an excellent design and 100% reliable. I'm at 6000+ rounds with mine and no problems whatsoever. However of the guns you mentioned it is the oldest. That's not necessarily bad obviously but in the realm of polymer framed pistols, theres been significant advances in the past couple years. Magazine technology and the realization of a correct bore axis is one of them.
If it was me and I had to chose in a LE setting what my department was going to I'd without a doubt choose the M&P. At a $400 price point it shouldn't be hard to convince the bean crunchers either. It don't know what your department specifics are for what the pistol has to have from a legal standpoint. It is DAO, and has an internal locking saftey-can't fire if theres not a magazine in the chamber. If you don't require this, it is very easy to take off. I personally find the safety being only on the trigger (ala glock dao type firing systems) to be a huge plus. One less failure point. Ergonmics are great and there is 3 different sized backstraps.
I'd say either would be great for LE use. Do you have a price point you have to meet? And do you need the additional external safteys that the XD provides. Either is a winner. I just prefer the shorter reset and bore axis of the M&P. The trigger is worse in the beginning while it is still gritty. Either smooth it out yourself(extremely easy for you or your armorer to do as it involves simply buffing the parts prematurely) or just shoot around 500-1000 rounds and the triggers are pretty much the same.
I'd say the M&P is the best polymer framed pistol in its price range now. It's trigger needs work for competition type use, but for duty use its fine as is. I recommend it to everyone who asks me what type of pistol they should buy for personal use. They have a good LE discount, should be able to get them for around low 400's.
It's striker fired and in the 9/40 doesn't have a thumb safety, one can be had on the 45 version though. I have one of the 45's and the trigger pull was pretty long. Don't remember what I gauged it as but it was around 8-10 I beileve.
The thing that sets it apart for me at least its its bore axis. It is extremely quick on follow up shots. The bore is pretty much in line with your hand. As such, muzzle flip is drastically reduced compared to the H&K or SIG. I also have an H&K fullsize 40 and with the jetfunnel mag system its nice as it has a round count of 16. The new XDm however also has the same round count and its in a newer designed weapon so obviously theres some nice traits to be had.
The H&K is an excellent design and 100% reliable. I'm at 6000+ rounds with mine and no problems whatsoever. However of the guns you mentioned it is the oldest. That's not necessarily bad obviously but in the realm of polymer framed pistols, theres been significant advances in the past couple years. Magazine technology and the realization of a correct bore axis is one of them.
If it was me and I had to chose in a LE setting what my department was going to I'd without a doubt choose the M&P. At a $400 price point it shouldn't be hard to convince the bean crunchers either. It don't know what your department specifics are for what the pistol has to have from a legal standpoint. It is DAO, and has an internal locking saftey-can't fire if theres not a magazine in the chamber. If you don't require this, it is very easy to take off. I personally find the safety being only on the trigger (ala glock dao type firing systems) to be a huge plus. One less failure point. Ergonmics are great and there is 3 different sized backstraps.
I'd say either would be great for LE use. Do you have a price point you have to meet? And do you need the additional external safteys that the XD provides. Either is a winner. I just prefer the shorter reset and bore axis of the M&P. The trigger is worse in the beginning while it is still gritty. Either smooth it out yourself(extremely easy for you or your armorer to do as it involves simply buffing the parts prematurely) or just shoot around 500-1000 rounds and the triggers are pretty much the same.
No need for an external Safety. Don't want one. We have ample funds but no one is going to approve more then $800 for purchasing new Pistols. We may be slick, but not that slick:D
They are sending us an M&P to test shoot. It will probably be between the Glock22, M&P and XD. Of course we will test fire and get everyones opinions all these Pistols.
We received the last batch of Sigs that we sent off a few weeks ago to be refurbished. Like last time, one of the Hand Grips were missing screws. For the life of me I don't know whats going on with Sig.
sleepyhead4
03-27-2009, 15:18
I just bought an HK P2000sk and so far, that's the best pistol I've ever used. They run about $750 to $800 civilian with different versions (SA/DA or LEM).
What I like about the pistol is that it is very ergonomic, better than the XD and feels really solid in my hand. It also shoots pretty damn well. Lastly, it's smaller than the standard HK USP so it's easier grip for my girly hands.
Last I heard, the FAMs had the 229s, but in .357 SIG rather than .40.
That's my impression as well. Since I haven't heard much about the 226 in 40/357SIG having similar extractor problems, I wonder if the extra mass afforded by the longer slide slows down the cycle enough to avoid extractor damage when firing 40?
Last I heard, the FAMs had the 229s, but in .357 SIG rather than .40.
TR
Yes, the FAM'S that attended a Shooting Course with us recently. Carried that very same gun. Its loud and bright. But who cares. Once they draw it and shoot it on a plane there is no reason to be timid;)
p2000sk is an excellent pistol. I would use that for my daily carry, but I already have a USP compact and I don't really want to pay more to trade mine in and upgrade it. If I didn't have a USP compact already that would probably be it, especially as CDNN has them for around 725 with a 40 S&W and 357 sig barrel included in their package. Only complaint I have with H&K is their mags are expensive and the follow up shots take slightly longer due to the low grip angle producing more muzzle flip than its competitors. I love it for CCW use though as i'm always 100 percent certain that it will function and price for something like that isn't really a concern.
I agree with Tom on the glocks, its a long shot but since it is 40 S&W their is a higher chance of a catastrophic failure. Factory ammo almost negates this but shooting +P continously probably isn't ideal.
Keep us posted. Watch out for that M&P though. Like I said earlier the first 200-400 rounds the trigger is pretty gritty as the surfaces that produce friction are still rubbing against each other and haven't "buffed out" yet. After that its all gravy though.
ZooKeeper
03-27-2009, 21:00
KG - Good luck with the XD. I wish I had the test data to support your quest. Can you contact Springfield or are there conflict issues?
FWIW, If you can get it approved, you'll be very pleased. The XDm in .40 is the best "tactical tupperware" I've ever played with. Glocks aren't even in the same game. Everybody I've recommended one to has been happy with the choice. I've had my XDs long enough that I'm ready to start "tweaking", something that's not really needed with the XDm. I'm putting Springer Precision trigger kits I just got delivered from Brownells in this weekend. Night sights are next.
Let us know what you think after you install the trigger kit. Had Scott at Springer Precision do mine...in my opinion, took a good gun to a great gun.
STR8SHTR
03-28-2009, 14:19
kgoerz from my experience the M&P is a very accurate and reliable handgun. I just returned a T&E M&P chambered in .357 SIG . It had over 6500 rounds through it and made it through a TigerSwan/ Brian Searcy three day class with only one malfunction caused by me.
Also, I do firearms contract work for the NC DOC who uses the M&P .40. The only malfunctions I see on the range with them are either ammo or shooter related.
The things that I liked about the M&P:
Multiple back straps so you can fit different size shooters
Light weight
Less felt recoil than other pistols that I have shot in the same caliber
Totally ambidextrous
If I were going to replace our SIG P229's today I would have to look very hard at the M&P.
Jeff
If you don't mind me throwing one more option into the pool, the Beretta Px4 in .40 is a very nice fullsize handgun. If you prefer hammer fired over striker fired handguns it should definitely be something that you look at. The standard mag capacity is 14 rounds, 17 with the extended mags.
Here are the weapon specs from their site: http://px4storm.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=48
Here is something not mentioned on the site.
The F configuration (safety that also functions as a decocker) can be converted to a G configuration (decocker only configuration) with very little work. I did it myself with the assistance of an internet howto and youtube videos (First time I ever disassembled a slide, YAY!), and the process is fully reversible.
Field stripping and cleaning the weapon is simple enough to do blindfolded the first time around. The factory sights are glow in the dark sights, you'll probably want to replace them with tritium sights.
I used to have some data on police departments that switched to it and their thoughts, but my computer hard drive melted down on me so I no longer have said data.
I had this data when I was researching what fullsize gun I should carry myself for personal protection. The runner up was the S&W M&P, which I also found to be a nice gun. The Px4 won my vote for ease of disassembly, being hammer fired, and higher mag capacity with extended mags.
I currently own the 9mm version of the Px4 with a Kramer IWB holster.
Hopefully this information helps you out.
The Reaper
04-02-2009, 17:52
If you don't mind me throwing one more option into the pool, the Beretta Px4 in .40 is a very nice fullsize handgun. If you prefer hammer fired over striker fired handguns it should definitely be something that you look at. The standard mag capacity is 14 rounds, 17 with the extended mags.
Here are the weapon specs from their site: http://px4storm.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=48
Here is something not mentioned on the site.
The F configuration (safety that also functions as a decocker) can be converted to a G configuration (decocker only configuration) with very little work. I did it myself with the assistance of an internet howto and youtube videos (First time I ever disassembled a slide, YAY!), and the process is fully reversible.
Field stripping and cleaning the weapon is simple enough to do blindfolded the first time around. The factory sights are glow in the dark sights, you'll probably want to replace them with tritium sights.
I used to have some data on police departments that switched to it and their thoughts, but my computer hard drive melted down on me so I no longer have said data.
I had this data when I was researching what fullsize gun I should carry myself for personal protection. The runner up was the S&W M&P, which I also found to be a nice gun. The Px4 won my vote for ease of disassembly, being hammer fired, and higher mag capacity with extended mags.
I currently own the 9mm version of the Px4 with a Kramer IWB holster.
Hopefully this information helps you out.
How many rounds do you have through that Beretta so far?
TR
I purchased it 2 years ago and would fire 100 rounds per month of Winchester white box ammo with about 4 handgun courses intersperced where I fired between 200-300 rounds each. About 200 rounds of Remington golden sabers to make sure they would work fine before I started carrying them.
So a bit over 3000 rounds so far. I've had zero malfunctions so far. If I can find my camera when I get home I'll upload photos.
For the moment though, the wikipedia page has a couple nice pictures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Px4
As an aside, I've stopped going to the range monthly and I'm sticking to dry firing and airsoft (don't laugh) for the majority of my practice. Hopefully when the run on guns and ammo slows down I'll be able to go shoot again.
EDIT: I just realized the wiki page has a list of some departments that now use the Px4. You may be able to contact them to get their take on the weapon as well.
EDIT2: My roommate "borrowed" my camera. Pictures will have to wait for another day.
allester666
04-12-2009, 15:42
Cant go wrong with an XDM, I have one in 9mm about 1000 rounds so far no issues and it shoots like a champ. I took it out to an IDPA shoot a month and a half ago and shot a damn near perfect score. Great ergonomics for me, most who have shot it will agree. I know of one guy who preferred the M&P over the XDM due to his discomfort with the hand grip, while I found that the M&P and I didn't agree in that aspect. Try out both before you (or your unit) purchase's if possible.
Blitzzz (RIP)
04-12-2009, 17:32
9mm.40 cal or 45 cal.
I have and shoot them all and would prefere as a side arm a .45. Just because.you can really hurt shit with it.
Colt, Ruger, Sig, HK, XD. Berretta if they have one.
40 is nice and hurts too but difficult cal to supply the military.
I just am personally too sick of the undependable hurt put on by a 9mm.
I know what I say here has little to do with the purchase of duty weapons but...It's easier to put a second round if needed into a target on the ground than one moving. Blitzzz
Utah Bob
04-13-2009, 22:35
My department switched to Glock 22s about a year before I retired. They were excellent. The officers qual scores actually improved. I'd have one now if I wasn't such a 1911 freak.
doctom54
04-14-2009, 10:10
9mm.40 cal or 45 cal.
I have and shoot them all and would prefere as a side arm a .45.
...It's easier to put a second round if needed into a target on the ground than one moving. Blitzzz
LMAO
I concur
Any input on the 226? We're in the process of transitioning to the Sig226 from the XD9. We initially had some factory issues with the XD, but they were resolved. I was amazed at how good a neighbor's XD felt in comparison to my duty pistol. His was very tight and felt good. Mine was new from the factory 3-4 years ago and had to be returned to re-blue the slide right after it came in. It never felt as tight (different tolerances?) Not sure if the Croatia stamp on the mags and slide would have anything to do with this or not :rolleyes: We were given the choice between the M&P, Sig, or H&K. I personally favored the H&K only in a .45. (I'm with Blitzz on the caliber issue). When we asked about the H&K we were told the trigger was too light?!?!?!
Blitzzz (RIP)
04-15-2009, 05:46
Lord Knows we don't what light triggers, could keep us from pulling a round. LOL Blitzzz
Ken Brock
04-15-2009, 06:38
My department switched to Glock 22s about a year before I retired. They were excellent. The officers qual scores actually improved. I'd have one now if I wasn't such a 1911 freak.
my department has been using them since 1996 and we've had no problems to speak of
the .40 cal Glock is the most issued gun in this state's law enforcement agencies
As an adjunct instructor at the Police Academy I've thousands of .40 Glocks used and never witnessed one of these "catastrophic" failures
Peregrino
04-15-2009, 17:59
Let us know what you think after you install the trigger kit. Had Scott at Springer Precision do mine...in my opinion, took a good gun to a great gun.
Wanted to hold off replying until I had a chance to test fire them. Put 100 rds apiece through them Sunday and couldn't be happier. Doing it myself saved enough on shipping and handling to budget night sites for one of them. It was NOT a drop in. ATD and some patience (about an hour apiece) got me where I wanted to be. XDTalk.com was an invaluable resource.
ZooKeeper
04-16-2009, 17:25
Wanted to hold off replying until I had a chance to test fire them. Put 100 rds apiece through them Sunday and couldn't be happier. Doing it myself saved enough on shipping and handling to budget night sites for one of them. It was NOT a drop in. ATD and some patience (about an hour apiece) got me where I wanted to be. XDTalk.com was an invaluable resource.
Thanks for the reply & good to hear.
+1 on XDTalk.com