View Full Version : AN/PSQ-20 ENVG
Green Tip
03-02-2009, 10:55
Army just issued them. Apparently 10th Mountain already has them. Has night vision and thermal built in. Has anyone had the chance to use them?
RT AXE 10
03-02-2009, 13:14
Army just issued them. Apparently 10th Mountain already has them. Has night vision and thermal built in. Has anyone had the chance to use them?
I think that if the US Army and 10th Mountain Div. wanted everyone to know this, they would have made it public...
Axe
They did make it public. It was in last weeks Army Times.
Basenshukai
03-02-2009, 20:23
This means that SF probably won't see them for years. I remember when I left the 10th Mountain Division back in 2001; every member of my platoon had AN/PVS 14s. In fact, my M-240 and M-249 guys had two - one for the weapon's rail and one for them.
When I ended up in an SFODA roughly two years later, we were lucky to have two, or three of those in the team. All the other ones were the old AN/PVS 7Ds. To add insult to injury, whenever we came in contact with either SEALs, or Air Force Special Operations, they'd all be sporting the newer AN/PVS-15s. When I was in SFAS, some instructors told me that they felt like they were treated as "K Mart"SOF as opposed to the premier UW force we are touted as being. I did not believe it until I was in an actual team. Where are our (SF) advocates within the highest leadership? Anyway, rant over.
RT AXE 10
03-02-2009, 20:34
They did make it public. It was in last weeks Army Times.
The Army still believes in self inflicted wounds...
The short answer, gadget forces NEED gadgets. UW forces need their minds. There is something to be said for not having to have a laser-guided, light weight, see in the dark, go-faster this or that. When that crap fails, and it will, if you expect a plane to drop in a replacement, you are not in an UW environment. Just a thought, "People are more important than hardware"
TOMAHAWK9521
03-02-2009, 21:13
Army just issued them. Apparently 10th Mountain already has them. Has night vision and thermal built in. Has anyone had the chance to use them?
We had a new JTAC show up on my team with a set of those in Iraq last year. Yeah, they're cool to switch from IR to thermal. I may be wrong but I think you can run both settings simultaneously. Damn things gave me a headache.
Green Tip
03-03-2009, 10:00
Wow NVG+thermal at the same time haha. Your entire ruck would be full of batteries!
Hope we can get our hands on some of these someday. Nothing excites me more like watchin hajj sheepherder taking care of business with either choice of thermal or good ole nvgs. Ill bet they eat batteries.
Sinister
03-03-2009, 14:15
The NCOIC of the Benning New Equipment Team gave me a demo. They are an exceptionally neat piece of equipment, fusing the capabilities of both image intensification and thermals.
My experience has been that thermals have the big edge on aqcuisition while image intensification wins hands-down for IFF. The image you get in the viewfinder is a starlight picture with a live, moving person outlined with a thermal outline or halo.
When fused together the thermals help you FIND the bad guy while the I2 helps you aim and engage.
Big Army is supposed to integrate the basis-of-issue plan and fielding priority. They were probably told to send it to leg units in contact first (as opposed to SF) because SOF has MFP-11 projects and equipment.
Basenshukai
03-03-2009, 16:04
The short answer, gadget forces NEED gadgets. UW forces need their minds. There is something to be said for not having to have a laser-guided, light weight, see in the dark, go-faster this or that. When that crap fails, and it will, if you expect a plane to drop in a replacement, you are not in an UW environment. Just a thought, "People are more important than hardware"
My point is the following:
An SFODA is a small element that requires that it be intelligently employed as well as exceptionally supported (logistically and otherwise). The availability of "gadgets" is not the issue here. The issue is their availability whenever, and wherever an SFODA may need them. If you ask an SFODA to ground convoy as part of a CRP for several hours over rough and dangerous terrain at night, the least you can do is provide the detachment with the proper optics that can provide proper depth perception and resolution so that it has the best possible advantage over the threat (both enemy and terrain-based) when required.
What equipment is required? The best equipment available. SF deserves it. Can we work without technology? We certainly can. But, as the most powerful military in the world, with the most well-trained and experienced UW force currently fielded, should we have to? No. SF certainly does not deserve to be on the bottom of the list on the many equipment procurement initiatives out there. Anyone here that's been to the sandbox knows that SF is about the only combat element that is always outside the wire, to some capacity, delivering results way out of proportion to our size.
I am tired of the unnecessarily bureaucratic tangled logistics procurement system that SF - more than other SOF - has been expected to put up with. I'm tired of taking casualties because we have to make do with GMVs as opposed to being inserted via aircraft (a very large gadget) and, thus, not taking full advantage of the element of surprise that offsets the limitations our small numbers and the enemy’s sophisticated early warning system.
SF has been asked, time and again, to make do with less than the optimal support available. It kind of reminds me of when commanders run their units into the ground simply because they don't have the ability (for whatever reasons) to simply give other options to their higher for fear of looking like they are weaker than their peers. We should have better advocates for our needs than we currently have. We’ve been asking for a secondary weapon with better stopping power for years now and yet, we are still saddled with the M9. What does MARSOC – a brand new organization – have? 45 Caliber semi-automatics.
"People are more important that hardware", actually "Humans are more important than hardware" (and I've actually met and spoken to the man that developed the SOF Truths as the tenets we are so familiar with today) is meant to mean that preparing the man for what is expected of him, is far more important that buying the latest "gadget" to solve the issue for which he was trained for in the first place. The context of the SOF Truths is that of cautionary advice for any government (specifically, ours) faced with selecting and training SOF for future combat employment. The SOF truth you paraphrased was never meant to direct priorities of support for forces already on the ground and already in the employment phase. SF has been in the employment phase since prior to 9-11.
In any real sense, nearly every piece of mission-critical equipment we use to fight the battle today - the radio, our rifle, the GPS, etc. - is a gadget, a tool. The real weapon is our mind. That being said, if your radio fails, your weapon malfunctions and your GPS dies, there will be very little between you and 140 to 150 Taliban facing you on an Afghan valley. That problem is greatly compounded when there are only 12 of you along with about 20 to 30 less-than-motivated Afghan National Army soldiers. And yet, we have seen tremendous guile and bravery on the part of our SFODAs result in some of the most heroic anecdotes in the history of warfare. Our men deserve the best support there is because we ask them to do the nearly impossible nearly every day. Period.
ZonieDiver
03-04-2009, 00:07
Very, very well-said!
Green Tip
03-04-2009, 02:05
I wonder if IR lasers work well with it. Do the lasers produce any heat at all because the new one has enough power to blind people? Do you think that would mess with the thermal any? I'm not sure if the newest one's name has any OPSEC. Here's a funny little story. A Afghan kid found the newest one and brought it back to the FOB haha! I think our force protection paid him like 40 bucks for it.
longrange1947
03-04-2009, 06:25
It is a single lens and we are working on a double lens so that the guys will have depth perception. It is being taken care of.
gtcrispy
03-04-2009, 23:44
We had a few sets while in country. Unfortunately they didn't make it down to our level till the very end of the trip. Never got to use them outside except walking around our compound.
I gotten my hands on these types of nods before. They are usually large and cumbersome. The weight will be an issue, especially if they are binocular types. Another consideration is the lack of a diopter adjustment (not sure if this model has one or not). In order to save on weight and length a lot of these manufacturers will chop it off. So unless you have perfect 20/20, you will get a crushing headache after several hours of use.
Basenshukai, I've felt your pain about doing more with less. I know I'm off topic but have you tried getting 45's out of war stock. You wouldn't believe the stuff the military keeps in storage. That's how 5th Grp got theirs in 2003-2004 (can't remember). They were found by a motivated company commander. Another option, if you like your pistols crew served, go to your AKO and search jos2009. Download the PDF and go to page A-7.
Basenshukai
03-06-2009, 10:33
I gotten my hands on these types of nods before. They are usually large and cumbersome. The weight will be an issue, especially if they are binocular types. Another consideration is the lack of a diopter adjustment (not sure if this model has one or not). In order to save on weight and length a lot of these manufacturers will chop it off. So unless you have perfect 20/20, you will get a crushing headache after several hours of use.
Basenshukai, I've felt your pain about doing more with less. I know I'm off topic but have you tried getting 45's out of war stock. You wouldn't believe the stuff the military keeps in storage. That's how 5th Grp got theirs in 2003-2004 (can't remember). They were found by a motivated company commander. Another option, if you like your pistols crew served, go to your AKO and search jos2009. Download the PDF and go to page A-7.
Yep, I went to the JOS Warehouse and got a bunch of stuff we needed, but was not in the "system". A lot of it was very useful during the deployment. But, I still think we should have these things in our own inventories without having to "out source".
Amen Basenshukai! I think it's all about the old "TOOLBOX" principle, not a technology issue. I have seen (big Army) people swing and miss on this quite a bit.
RT AXE 10
03-06-2009, 12:15
Night Vision Technology enhancement is moving so fast, that what was purchased yesterday, is no longer ideal for today. Include the climbing price of technology and equipment, Big Army has to really consider how much of what and to whom.
On the other hand are those inventions that have not completed testing for all around use and may still have faults such as, being front end heavy, power consumption and questionable combat durability. The procurement office has night mares when they must procure these items prior to test completion or items that may not meet Mil spec standards... Meanwhile, the users in the battle zone are ?.
a. with none
b. with some
c. with the old stuff
d. with flashlight n red filters
I agree, the jos can be a lot more painful than signing it out of your own arms room. It all starts with the procurment process and the people in charge of it. Unfortunately, the people who are motivated for change are also the ones who wan't to stay on the team and dodge staff tours. On top of that the bugeting process is corupt. Ask any Col. in USASOC or USAFIC about the "taxing" process of apropriated funds. Don't get me started on the waste of money rant.
Green Tip
03-07-2009, 02:07
I just read that the army spent a little over 560 Million Dollars on this contract haha wow!
For those who maybe interested, here is more info from the manufacturer.
http://www.nightvision.com/products/military/product_pages/datasheet/anpsq20_envg.pdf
Roger_Out
11-24-2009, 08:21
Used them for one drive into the desert and then they stayed on a shelf in the room. They have a seperate battery pack that also attaches to your helmet, and between the two pieces you get quite a bit of weight on your neck, especially if you try to drive with these things on. Ok for sporadic use from a gunners perch, but not something you want to be wearing for an extended period of time. This seemed to be the consensus of the guys that used them.
eat more carrots and you dont need NVGs
screw the cool guys and their gadgets. Most of the cool guys need to rotate back home every 45 to 90 days because of the quality of life they are forced to endure (and so they can purchase new batteries)
Real men live with smelly Afghanis for 6 months at a time
My best frame of reference right now is parachuting: gadgets freeze at certain temps and altitudes. Yet everyone wants the 10,000 dollar gadget that WILL freeze and become NMC
...a self leveling boat compass wont freeze until AFTER you do.
just sayin'