PDA

View Full Version : UNUSUAL 8MM


swpa19
02-22-2009, 09:13
I had been collecting cartridges off and on for over 30years. I'm in the process of purging (donating) my collection to an SF friend of mine who is an avid WWII memorabalia collector.

I came across this round. I had initially intended to take it to a show and perhaps have it properly ID'd, but never got around to it.

Im hoping someone here could offer some insight to it.

The cartridge itself is a laquered 7.9 X 57MM bullet. There is no powder charge in the round, and the "ball" is constructed from a purplish wood.

Because of the amount of laquer on the round, the headstamp is a bit difficult to make out. Or is it my age and eyes.

Appreciate any input.

Pete
02-22-2009, 09:23
http://e-militaria.com/catalog/unknown/wood_bullet_fer-st-6-42/index.html

swpa19
02-22-2009, 09:28
Like this?


PETE: Yup, exactly like that.

Sten
02-22-2009, 10:49
The Germans were fighting Vampires?

Team Sergeant
02-22-2009, 11:06
A home made snap-cap?

HOLLiS
02-22-2009, 11:17
I wonder if they are training rounds/dummies. I don't think a collector would want to find out if the primer is inert or not.

I have seen advertise 6.5 Swede (if memory is right) round with wooden bullets for practice.

Pete
02-22-2009, 11:27
...I have seen advertise 6.5 Swede (if memory is right) round with wooden bullets for practice.

My google-fu is weak this afternoon. I was looking for a link on the German rd.

The BFA for the Swedish round was a screw on cap for the end of the barrel that destroyed the round as it came out.

The MG 34 had a blank fire barrel and IIRC it fired in a similar way. The weapon fired the round and as it came to the end it was smashed on a fixed cone with the splinters flying out forward and to the side.

Plugs, paper and crimps took out the wood used for blanks.

Blitzzz (RIP)
02-22-2009, 11:30
This was found on a gun thread about the same question.

"They are drill rounds. I have had several clips of these, both WW1 and WW2 dated. How they ended up in the front line, no idea!"

"No, the 'slugs' are wooden and there is no cordite in them, so they cannot be fired. They are used to practice operating the rifle, reloading etc.

JJ_BPK
02-22-2009, 11:42
[QUOTE=HOLLiS;251046]I wonder if they are training rounds/dummies. /QUOTE]


Yes Sir,, That's what they are. They used wood dowel bullets with deep hollow bases and normal power & primer. The idea was they would disintegrate when exiting the barrel.

I think the UK made .303 with red painted wood and green 8MM by Germany.

Different stories go with them


wood was used so the doctors could not see the bullet with xrays
crowd control
blanks
funerals & ceremonials
used indoor for trigger control and weapons fimulariy..

Pete
02-22-2009, 11:55
Here is the link to the 6.5mm Swedish manual.

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/swede_m38-m41b-m96.pdf

Part 5 covers installing the BFA.

The last page covers ammunition. The m/44 was the practice round and the m/14 was the blank round "red wooden bullet".

I'm still looking for the 8mm.

Pete
02-22-2009, 12:26
From the black (?) (and also made in yellow) primer it is probably a 7.92mm Patrone Gew. Krat.

If not then it would be a 7.92 Platz Patrone 33.

Both 8mm Blanks from WW II.

Here is a link to some info.

http://www.germanmilitaria.co.uk/ammu.htm#ptrmausers

The Exerzierpatronen were the dummy/drill rounds.

swpa19
02-22-2009, 13:45
"No, the 'slugs' are wooden and there is no cordite in them, so they cannot be fired.

BLITZZZ: That would make sense, the round is "crimped" into the wooden "Ball" and there is NO powder charge in the round. It also looks like the primer is a dummy.

Blitzzz (RIP)
02-22-2009, 17:21
The other ones have powder and primer.
Some were used in Machine gun belts for 100 meter ranges...why? ...Got me
Some were Hollow and disintegrated leaving the barrel (with assist of a barrel shreader. (used as blanks).
Some where solid and would be set afire leaving the barrel and built to shoot WWI aircraft and burn them. I guess they would have to be flying low. Blitzzz

Gene Econ
02-22-2009, 20:01
The other ones have powder and primer.
Some were used in Machine gun belts for 100 meter ranges...why? ...Got me
Some were Hollow and disintegrated leaving the barrel (with assist of a barrel shreader. (used as blanks). Some where solid and would be set afire leaving the barrel and built to shoot WWI aircraft and burn them. I guess they would have to be flying low. Blitzzz

Blitzzz:

You never fired any blue plastic SRTA (Short Range Traininig Ammunition) 5.56, 7.62, or .50 Caliber at reduced ranges?

Head out to a 'fitty-cal' range sometime and walk down range maybe thirty yards and look on the ground. You will see many blue plastic bullets sitting there with rifling engraved on them.

Since the era of the blue plastic bullets there are several SRTA designs that actually perform quite well.

BTW -- have you ever shot a bullet made of Melmac? Those were also SRTA bullets and probably the very first 'frangiable' bullets ever used. For those who don't know what Melmac is -- it is the brown colored plastic stuff that you may have seen as your coffee cups and mess hall trays of Boucher's era (not mine as he is an antique and I am VOLAR). He, he, he.

I shot some watermellons with some factory loaded Melmac bullets in 30-06 about fifteen years ago from an M-1903 C Stock Springfield rifle (an original with a pristine barrel). Totally unimpressive results. I thnk I may have a few of these peculiar SRTA rounds left somewhere. I think their headsamps were in the 1940's. Boucher would know as he probably shot hundreds of them when he was in his teen age years.

That said -- the study of gallery, frangiable, and short range ammunition is extremely interesting if one is into small arms development and marksmanship training concepts and history.

Gene

Blitzzz (RIP)
02-23-2009, 00:33
shot the blue 7.62 in Berlin while practicing covering door entry by shooting around the door kickers while they were "kicking" . Blitzzz

Odd Job
02-23-2009, 17:42
The IAA forum is great for things like this. There is a wealth of knowledge over there. Here are a few links:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5270

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3342

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3439

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2819

Tuukka
02-23-2009, 17:59
Regarding the evolution of blank ammo, the Finnish Defence Forces still use wood bullet blanks in 7.62x39 and 7.62x53R.

Blitzzz (RIP)
07-14-2009, 19:26
I'm starting a reloading Test/project.
It goes like this: Years ago my wife baught 1600 rounds of WWII german 8mm ammo. It is manufactured in 1936 198gr Mauser ammo.

I fired some and liked it. I fired it in my 1941 Obendorff K-98. A real beauty.
The primers are corrosive so I did the cleaning several times. The gun is niot the issue here. The ammo is. I broke down a 15 round box of them today. I collected the powder and weighed each charge, then weighed the bullets.
Powder was 42.9 grs to 43.8 grs and the bullets were 197.8 to 198.6
Not a bad batch for milproduction.
I am going to deprime the brass and reprime with new primers. remeasure each charge of powder at 43.5 grs of the original powder ( it's a really fine flake).
I will chrony these 15 and then decide if I am going to reload all 1600 rounds this way or change powders to an IMR 4064 or RL-15.
Any comments welcome. Dave

swpa19
07-15-2009, 06:04
BLITZZZ:

What is your ultimate goal for this round? 44gr of IMR-4064 coupled with the Sierra Match King in 200gr, "should" bring you pretty close to match accuracy.

Keep in mind, I'm trusting an old and fading memory.

The Reaper
07-15-2009, 09:12
I'm starting a reloading Test/project.
It goes like this: Years ago my wife baught 1600 rounds of WWII german 8mm ammo. It is manufactured in 1936 198gr Mauser ammo.

I fired some and liked it. I fired it in my 1941 Obendorff K-98. A real beauty.
The primers are corrosive so I did the cleaning several times. The gun is niot the issue here. The ammo is. I broke down a 15 round box of them today. I collected the powder and weighed each charge, then weighed the bullets.
Powder was 42.9 grs to 43.8 grs and the bullets were 197.8 to 198.6
Not a bad batch for milproduction.
I am going to deprime the brass and reprime with new primers. remeasure each charge of powder at 43.5 grs of the original powder ( it's a really fine flake).
I will chrony these 15 and then decide if I am going to reload all 1600 rounds this way or change powders to an IMR 4064 or RL-15.
Any comments welcome. Dave

Good luck depriming the ammo.

1936 German ammo should be Berdan primed, which will be an adventure to deprime.

TR

Blitzzz (RIP)
07-15-2009, 10:04
Thumbs up on the depriming the brass. Not a good idea as I tried today. I averaged the powder to 43.5 grs and reloaded the brass.
Bob gives a very good recipe...and i already use it. thanks. That makes me feel better about the load.
I will chony the Geran war rounds and shoot as is. and clean, clean, clean.

I love the 200 grs Sierras, also I shoot a 240 gr Sierra in my 30-06 with 4064 (i think 45.7) that give a ballistic arch transsonic out beyond 1300 meters and groups under .45 MOA at 100. I do really love this round. For some reason it also is very low recoil. Who knows.

Blitzzz (RIP)
08-07-2009, 06:49
The blue plastic rounds we fired in Berlin, Spiraled noticeably and we had to learn the values of the spin before shooting around our team members.