View Full Version : Obama confronts a choice on copters
BMT (RIP)
02-16-2009, 09:48
Time for the MM to fish or cut bait!!
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/16/america/16chopper.php
BMT
It doesn't even raise my ire anymore...
big deal.
buy thirty, hell buy one for each state.
The push for utopia is only going to result in anarchy so why stop now.
There is shit in the news every day now that six months ago was written off as paranoid delusions brought on by wack-job right wing extremists... so why bother.
I cant even imagine what bizarre happenings the next six months hold.
I am putting a chin strap on my foil hat so the aliens can't pull it off while I am not looking.
bravo22b
02-16-2009, 10:55
It's worth noting that Congressman Joe Sestak, who is quoted several times in the article, happens to have Boeing's helicopter division in his congressional district.
I'd venture to guess he might not be completely unbiased when it comes to helicopter contracts.
Politicians don't spend our tax money unless they can find a way to put some of it into pocket.
I hope they make the shitter's out of solid gold.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/16/america/16chopper.php
"Equipped to deflect missile attacks and capable of waging war from the air, the new VH-71 helicopters would fly farther, faster and more safely than the current decades-old craft."
Great to know that this technology now exists!:lifter
"If the office of the presidency is vulnerable, then the country is vulnerable," said Representative Joe Sestak of Pennsylvania, a Democrat and a retired navy vice admiral.
Have no doubts about the validity of this statement. However, it could also include our brave men & women who fly helo's in war zones everyday. So why not also spend the money to protect them, as they are protecting us on the front lines? JMHO.:munchin
Holly
It doesn't even raise my ire anymore...
big deal.
buy thirty, hell buy one for each state.
The push for utopia is only going to result in anarchy so why stop now.
there is shit in the news every day now that six months ago was written off as paranoid delusions brought on my wack-job right wing extremists... so why bother.
I cant even image what bizarre happenings the next six months hold.
I am putting a chin strap on my foil hat so the aliens can't pull it off while I am not looking.
I agree completely.
I sometimes jest about being a "ray of sunshine"; however, I don't even bother to post some of the really gloom-and-doom material. I will indulge in just a bit here...
Our society is increasingly complex. One well-respected scholar at Princeton, by the name of Tainter, wrote "The Collapse of Complex Societies". In essence, societies create ever more complex systems to deal with problems - eventually, added complexity creates more costs than benefits, resulting in a society that implodes. I see some of that occurring now.
I am not sure what we will see in 6 months or a year. But I think the trends are set and will lead to fearsome territory over the next 5 years.
Sometimes I reflect on Easter Island, discussed by Diamond in his book, Collapse. It seems that one day the folks that made the big statues just put down their tools and walked off the job. The society collapsed, rapidly falling into dissolution. I cannot help but wonder how far our own society will go.
On the news, I see discussions of airplanes in Buffalo, of dog shows, and of the POTUS latest trip to Camp David. I see nothing of the $25 trillion (yes, trillion, not billion) shortfall in European banks.
The POTUS needs new 'copters? Sure, why not? It's probably as good an effort at stimulus as any. Which is to say, utterly futile.
Dozer523
02-16-2009, 20:17
"A six-year-old project to build state-of-the-art presidential helicopters has bogged down in a contracting quagmire that will challenge Obama's desire to rein in military contracting expenses."
Do the math.
"A six-year-old project to build state-of-the-art presidential helicopters has bogged down in a contracting quagmire that will challenge Obama's desire to rein in military contracting expenses."
Do the math.
My two cents. The New York Times (the International Herald Tribune is the Gray Lady's international brand) is trying to play 'gotcha' with the president on this story while also taking yet another shot at Bush the Younger.
From the article:
Andrew Card Jr., Bush's White House chief of staff, grew exasperated in 2002 by helicopter mechanical problems and instigated the development of an ultramodern replacement. The Pentagon awarded a contract in 2005 to Lockheed Martin, even though it had never built helicopters, reasoning that a three-engine model produced by its British-Italian partner, called the EH-101, provided a useful foundation.
In doing so, the Pentagon bypassed Sikorsky Aircraft, the contractor since the Eisenhower era. Representative Rosa DeLauro, a Democrat from Connecticut, where Sikorsky is based, said she believed the Bush administration wanted to reward Britain and Italy for support in Iraq. "I think this was a way of saying, 'We understand what you did for us; now we're trying to do something for you,' " she said.
The narrative implies that the new helicopter is as much the result of a political appointee being a bit of a diva and the result of the Bush administration playing favorites with a pay-off no-bid contract. Meanwhile, what ever legitimate concerns the VH-71 may or may not address remains an under-explored issue.
Do the math.
I think you're in the wrong classroom. This isn't a math question; rather, its an ethics question. Will he follow through with his campaign rhetoric to reduce potential waste in military spending, or will he allow this troubled program to continue in order to directly benefit from any additional capabilities it provides to him and his family?
Soft Target
02-17-2009, 12:32
It doesn't even raise my ire anymore...
big deal.
buy thirty, hell buy one for each state.
The push for utopia is only going to result in anarchy so why stop now.
There is shit in the news every day now that six months ago was written off as paranoid delusions brought on by wack-job right wing extremists... so why bother.
I cant even imagine what bizarre happenings the next six months hold.
I am putting a chin strap on my foil hat so the aliens can't pull it off while I am not looking.
One for each state? Would that be the 57 states that candidate Obama spoke about?
I am putting a chin strap on my foil hat so the aliens can't pull it off while I am not looking.You didn't say this in a meeting...I would've had too walk out!:D
LMAO!
Stay safe.
Here's a SECRET photo of the prototype. Looks like 6 years of government R&D to me. ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Our society is increasingly complex. One well-respected scholar at Princeton, by the name of Tainter, wrote "The Collapse of Complex Societies". In essence, societies create ever more complex systems to deal with problems - eventually, added complexity creates more costs than benefits, resulting in a society that implodes. I see some of that occurring now.Just try moving a shitter over here...:(
It is...what it is...
Stay safe.
Dozer523
02-18-2009, 07:58
I think you're in the wrong classroom. This isn't a math question; rather, its an ethics question. Will he follow through with his campaign rhetoric to reduce potential waste in military spending, or will he allow this troubled program to continue in order to directly benefit from any additional capabilities it provides to him and his family?
Give me a break, this is America. Raz, it's economics; it's all economics; it is always economics. So it is math. As I tell my 7th grade Honors Algebra "Math is your friend, it will never lie to you."
Let's do the numbers.
1) This had a post 9-11 start. On 9-12 America looked around and was convinced that we were unprepared for everything. Into that vacuum came all the programs that would make us safe. That ran the spectrum from plastic sheets and duct tape to deploying anti-missile systems in former Soviet block countries.
2) The article mentioned that the previous helos had problems. What better time to fix that problem then post 9-11 when just about anything military was funded?
3) The article goes on to say that the no-bid contract was awarded to L-M who has no rotary wing experience in the US but does in England-Italian operation. Was it really a reward for the Brits support? I don't know and don't care. I think we do owe the Brits for their support so maybe we got off cheap. But it still math (especially if you work for Sikorsky.
4) I really don't think this is about benefitting him and his family (isn't that H supposed to be capitalized:D) it's about benefiting the American people by keeping the CinC safe and getting him where he needs to go quickly while keeping him totally wired into the governmental and military systems (at least that is what they have told us ever since they put the President in private train cars.) We work em to death, look at the before and after pictures.
5) This started under the Bush administration (for the best reasons -- I'm not bashing President Bush) The post 911 "apocalyspos" got their fingers on it, the international political saw it (maybe) as a way to pay a debt to international friends, I'm pretty sure the Marines had a hack ("if it works for the Pres, maybe we can show a need so everyone gets it -- You are right Echos!) And finally, there was the guy who just looks after the President --trying to make "his guy" -- comfortable. (Anyone ever been a CG's aide or driver?) Oh, and don't forget the Secret Service --They probably added a thing or two (Or maybe a "thing or two" were added that the SS "might" like so they would chop quickly.) You can't land Air Force 1 on the south lawn, haven't you seen Independence Day?
6) Is it a waste? I don't know. A chopper ride compared to a motorcade? A hasty escape if the passengers don't gain access to the cockpit? Giving him a few more minutes to think about the bill he has before him? Getting him out for a look around with his own eyeballs? Just that he gets to go for a ride on a chopper and that is FUN!
Its all . . . Politics:mad: which is all economics:(. And the language is math;)
So he (and Congress, as they control the purse strings) are absolved of the responsibility to try to fix problems if they didn't directly create them? That's a winning strategy if I ever heard one.
The Reaper
02-18-2009, 09:39
If the POTUS has to have a chopper he can stand up in, put him in a Chinook. That is good enough for the troops he commands.
As an alternative, look for a modernization program for the current HMX-1 fleet.
The cost of these upgraded new models are outrageous, but this train wreck has been coming for several years.
Time to put the brakes on this aircraft spendathon.
TR
If the POTUS has to have a chopper he can stand up in, put him in a Chinook. That is good enough for the troops he commands.
As an alternative, look for a modernization program for the current HMX-1 fleet.
The cost of these upgraded new models are outrageous, but this train wreck has been coming for several years.
Time to put the brakes on this aircraft spendathon.
TR
Very well said Sir!
Am not a military equipment expert by anyone's standards, but it seems to me that Our Brave Troops also deserve the best that technology can give them, in order to ensure the highest rate of success.
Makes sense to me anyway...:munchin
Holly
Dozer523
02-18-2009, 12:06
So he (and Congress, as they control the purse strings) are absolved of the responsibility to try to fix problems if they didn't directly create them? That's a winning strategy if I ever heard one.
Absolved has such a sinful ring to it. But, I think everyone has to take responsibility for what they inherit. Does the President need a tricked out Chopper? Yeah, cuz I like him alive (no matter who he is) and I like him able to work all the time. Does he need one for every day in February (28 of em) I don't think so -- Maintenence can't be that hard. How about 6? two on the ready line, two in maintenence and two "justcuz". It doesn't look all that much fun to ride in anyway -- not like a Huey with your feet hanging out the door.:)