View Full Version : Would You Drive This ANYWHERE?
Here is some prime pork-barrel fodder..
We don't need liberals making monkey jokes,, when we do a better job
ourselves...
If this reads correctly,, 500k USD each???
I think I shall invent the P50 can opener,, @ 25 USD each,, it's a steal...
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a4049d1a9-f357-4c68-8f9a-8a8de0739d7a
Would You Drive This Through Afghanistan?, by Paul McLeary at 2/3/2009 9:07 AM CST
Walter Pincus flags yet another Pentagon procurement program that has
blown apart its budget in this morning's Washington Post-the Marine Corps'
"Growler," a light (and lightly armored) jeep that is set to be delivered
"10 years after conception and at twice the contract price, after delays
that were caused by changing concepts and problems in contracting,
development and testing."
The vehicle-actually, there are two variants of the internally
transportable vehicles or ITVs-is starting to be deployed to Marine units,
even though as John Garner, the Marines' program manager for the vehicle
told Pincus, due to its light armor, "you can't run it up the highway in an
urban area such as Iraq," adding that "it could accompany foot-mobile Marine
infantry in a not-built-up area such as Afghanistan."
Yeah? Well take a look at the vehicle and tell me if you would want to
tool around IED alley in Afghanistan in this thing
All that, and the average cost of a single Growler has "risen 120 percent,
from about $94,000 when the contract was awarded in 2004 to $209,000 in
2008. The unit cost for the vehicle with mortar and ammunition trailer has
grown 86 percent, from $579,000 to $1,078,000." The overall cost of the
contract with vehicle maker American Growler Inc. has shot up from $12.1
million in 2004 to $107.8 million by July 2008.
The vehicles, designed to be carried in the MV-22 Osprey for quick use by
Marines, look like they would do just fine for non-combat related roles in,
say, Africa, but I have a hard time believing that too many Marines or
soldiers would be excited about driving the jeep through Kandahar.
According to the Marine Corps Times, a Pentagon inspector general report
also recently found problems in the procurement process
The inability of the EFSS and ITV systems to demonstrate acceptable
performance in testing showed that the systems were not technically mature
and should not have been approved for entrance into [the early production
phase].Their not meeting the systems performance requirements during
developmental testing in 2006 and 2007 leads to questions about whether the
EFSS and ITV were accurately defined as non-developmental items.
I seem to recall Secretary of Defense Gates saying something about
acquisition programs, "in order to remain viable, will have to show some
utility and relevance to the kind of irregular campaigns that, as I
mentioned, are most likely to engage America's military in the coming
decades." This isn't to say that the Growler is a waste, but at its inflated
price, it's hard to see how it will be used in a conflict that has forced
the Pentagon to add more armor it its vehicles, not less.
Photo: U.S. Marine Corps
The Canadians have their own problems with their Gators:
http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/HO/servlet/com.deere.u90785.cce.productcatalog.view.servlets. ProdCatProduct?pNbr=1970W&tM=HO&link=enav
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/06/20/afghan-nato.html
I also want to be the sole source for those Twelve(12) two(2) tonne tie-down shackles used on the Gator,, @ 100 USD each...
Can you say "I'm Retired"... :D
God Bless the Marines...
PS: I'll not argue the requirements,, it's the cost of execution...
it looks like it would do great for doing police call on disney drive......
it looks like it would do great for doing police call on disney drive......
Add a wide step and side rails to the rear, like a trash truck, and the two picker uppers would be able to travel in style.
Remember the old mule the 82nd had for hauling ammo, flat bed with a small motor, seat and steering wheel stuck on the side? Looks like they just took that concept and upscaled to a jeep.
Next thing ya' know the Gamma Goat will be making a comeback.
Ret10Echo
02-05-2009, 09:25
THAT's where my lawn mower went!
:rolleyes:
Dozer523
02-05-2009, 09:41
Next thing ya' know the Gamma Goat will be making a comeback.
NO!! Not that awful thing.:( I noticed the Growler is designed to operate with the Osprey. I guess that's a nice pairing as both seem to be kept alive by throwing lots and lots of money at them.
I remember the Mule, that was sort of fun. What I miss is the M151A1! (It is getting FOGGY, again.:o I also remember the M114!:eek:)
Soft Target
02-05-2009, 09:52
NO!! Not that awful thing.:( I noticed the Growler is designed to operate with the Osprey. I guess that's a nice pairing as both seem to be kept alive by throwing lots and lots of money at them.
I remember the Mule, that was sort of fun. What I miss is the M151A1! (It is getting FOGGY, again.:o I also remember the M114!:eek:)
Don't forget the Goat.
"According to the Marine Corps Times, a Pentagon inspector general report also recently found problems in the procurement process."
I'm shocked!!! :rolleyes:
Looks a lot like a two-seater sports model of an M151 developed by those Orange County Chopper guys to me. :p
Richard's $.02 :munchin
For all you hi-speed air-softy's in the fast lane...
You can get you very own Growler,
in kit form
for just 3 easy payments of $2500 USD,
and for a limited time only,,
you'll get not 1, not 2,
but 5 Sham-WOW in MARPAC cam-u-fudge.
https://www.shamwow.com/ver8/index.asp
Corps pays $100K for retooled jeep, By Steven Komarow, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON - The Marine Corps is paying $100,000 apiece for a revamped
Vietnam-era jeep as part of its program to outfit the hybrid
airplane-helicopter V-22 Osprey, Pentagon records show.
That's seven times what a deluxe commercial version of the vehicle costs.
It's also three times what U.S. Export-Import Bank records show the
Dominican Republic paid four years ago for a military version of the
vehicle, called the Growler, a recycled version of the M151 jeep.
The Marines and the contractor, General Dynamics, say the vehicle has been
thoroughly revised with modern automotive parts and adapted to fit on the
V-22.
"Yes, it did start off with jeep technology, and it does look like a jeep in
a lot of ways," says John Garner, the Marines project manager. But he says
it's now "state of the art."
Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, a
non-profit group that monitors Pentagon contracts, says taxpayers are
getting a deal that "stinks" on an unarmored vehicle that makes no sense for
today's missions, where troops face ambushes and roadside bombs.
"In a time of war, we should not be wasting money on a junker which will not
protect our troops," Brian says. Under current military safety rules, the
Growler would be barred from service in Iraq except as a utility vehicle
that doesn't leave the security of a base.
The Marines have budgeted to buy more than 400 Growlers, along with a French mortar and ammunition that it would tow, under a contract that could total $296 million.
The Growler beat two other vehicles for the contract, Garner says.
Built by Ocala, Fla.-based American Growler, the original Growler is made partly from salvaged M151 jeep parts and is available in several versions for as little as $7,500 in kit form. At the high end, there's a $14,500 upgraded "tactical dune buggy" with a "bikini top." The UV100DB, which is the same vehicle you can buy from American Growler in a kit and put together yourself for about $7,500. (see attached picture of kit built Growler)
The Marines' version has considerable upgrades from the commercial and
Dominican Republic models, the Corps and contractor say, including a
turbo-diesel engine, disc brakes and other systems adapted from modern
vehicles.
"It's not your grandfather's jeep," says Kendell Pease, a General Dynamics
spokesman.
The Osprey is a twin-engine airplane that turns its rotors up for vertical
takeoff and landing like a helicopter.
Under development since 1986, the V-22 is scheduled to go into service in
2007. It has a history of technical problems and several fatal crashes.
The Growler is expected to be deployed with the V-22 in 2007, Pease says.
Wow! Tactical Golf carts?!?! And sham-wow is included! What a bargain!! :D
At the high end, there's a $14,500 upgraded "tactical dune buggy" with a "bikini top."
Would this be Grace Jones in a sham-wow swim suit? :eek:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Peregrino
02-05-2009, 10:53
I've seen most of the briefings for this. It's all they claim - and less! The story is much more complicated than the MSM can communicate in sound bites/bytes. Their bottom line is pretty much on target though - it's a capability looking for a mission. I've read several position papers/briefings denying it's parentage and vigorously attacking anyone who dared call it a jeep.
International Harvester should just bring back the Scout, and adapt it for military use. A camo SS-II with gun mounts.
It's a shame about the IFAV.
The Reaper
02-05-2009, 11:17
International Harvester should just bring back the Scout, and adapt it for military use. A camo SS-II with gun mounts.
It's a shame about the IFAV.
It won't fit in an Osprey.
Something they knew when they bought the damn things.:rolleyes:
It has a lot of other problems and limitations that will be brought to light over the next 50 years. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....
TR
I found an interesting, but old article that seems to be related to this vehicle.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread99317/pg1
It will be the first hybrid electric tactical vehicle - it incorporates a hybrid electric engine based on front mounted turbocharged, inter-cooled common rail direct injection diesel engine, type 2.5 litre DI-4V rated at 114kW. The diesel engine powers a 110kW Magnet Motors permanent magnet generator that drives four 50kW Magnet Motors permanent magnetic hub motors, mounted one in each of the Shadow's four wheel hubs.
Peregrino, do you know if it is still a hybrid, Sir?
I looked on the manufacture's website, but could not find anything on it being a hybrid.
http://www.capitaldefense.com/AmericanGrowler.shtml
Early concept vehicle, Shadow RST-V
11303
Growler with mortar trailer
11304
Team Sergeant
02-05-2009, 14:53
Before I went Special Forces I was a "Paratrooper" airborne infantry.
After we jumped out of those wonderful airplanes guess what we did?
Walked, everywhere.
If it's got wheels or tracks it beats walking.
TS
Peregrino
02-05-2009, 15:09
PR31C - First picture is a JLTV prototype. Completely different. JLTV is an evolving program intended to replace Hummers within the next 10-12 years. It has already sucked up millions without meeting milestones. With luck, that program will be delayed indefinately by the current economic crisis (unless some congressional slimeball sells it as a jobs - read corporate welfare - program). Hybrids were/are one of the propulsion options under consideration. They are NOT ready for prime time. Once again the military budget is seen as a resource to further congressional largess.
I hate to talk down about a company that is veteran owned, and employs local folks...however I've heard that there were some questions as to the impartiality and objectivity in the trials.
The serious issues I read of include:
A. It gets stuck just showing it a picture of a 'real' mud hole.
B. It had some issues getting in the -22... IIRC the crew had to roll the mortar/trailer into the bird, then back the 'Jeep' in, then attach... it was unable to back the trailer in first. or of it were loaded straight on, it couldn't back out?
I looked for the references to these issues but came up dry...
That all said, I'd flog one through some Uwharrie & Upper Tellico trails, and like the TS says, it beats walking... (Until ya sink it, break it, or abandon it... and you're the one on the hand receipt ;) )
Also the majority of the hi-dollar price tag was wrapped up in the mortar & doo-dads for the 0341 crew.
Edit-> Here is what I was refering to:
"The biggest problem for EFSS development, though, is that its 76-inch base width made it too wide for the Osprey. The design was modified to make the mortar fit, but in such a way that it requires the crew spend five to 10 minutes reconfiguring it after unloading, plus three to five minutes to re-assemble the roll-bar cage on the Growler, which is otherwise too tall to fit in the aircraft.
(The Marines have said they also plan to mount a .50-caliber machine gun on the back of the Growler, raising even more engineering questions about vehicle stability and tensile frame strength.)
Width, however, was the Growler's first design hurdle. The basic
Frame for the M151 Jeep, which had its own well-documented roll-over problems, was about the same width as the Osprey's rear hatch, leaving no room for crew to squeeze in and secure the load. The first design called for a 48-inch width, but that was expanded to 50 inches, allowing five inches clearance on either side.
``That exacerbated the roll-over problem,' said Bicknell, a conclusion of other engineers familiar with the Growler who were interviewed by Defense Watch. ``The Marine Corps is getting something that is 10 inches narrower than the (M151) jeep, but they had to keep the same ground clearance. Irrefutable laws of physics tell us that this raises the center of gravity, and that increases the tendency to roll over.
``When the Growler rolls over – and it will – it's going to injure and kill Marines,' said Bicknell. ``It's fairly short, almost a square vehicle. But to be stable, a vehicle has to be longer than it is wide. The Marines can't make it any longer because then it wouldn't fit in the Osprey with the towed mortar or the ammo trailer.'
As is presently configured, the Growler offers very little protection to its occupants. Heavy armor is out because it would make the Growler too heavy to haul in the Osprey.
The best the Marine Corps can hope for, said Jim Mills, a retired Army Special Forces soldier who led the program to develop heavier armor for the Humvee, is to protect the occupants from small arms fire and grenades. There is virtually no way, he said, to protect the Growler from a road mine or an improvised explosive device commonly used in Iraq.
Under current military safety rules, according to USA Today, the Growler would not be authorized for use in Iraq except on an already-secured compound.
Bicknell said he thinks the Marine Corps chose the Growler before designs were even sought and ``went through the motions' of evaluating other design prototypes.
``Their mind was made up before the proposal was made,' said Bicknell. ``That's the only explanation that makes sense as to why the Growler was chosen.'
As evidence, he pointed out that several design requirements were watered down or eliminated entirely during design competition that otherwise would have eliminated the Growler. The ability to drive over a 15-inch obstacle was deleted, as was the requirement that the vehicle be able to tow 53 percent of its own weight from a dead stop on a hard, dry road surface.
Another engineer interviewed by Defense Watch, who asked not to be quoted by name, said the Growler was allowed by Catto's command to retake portions of the evaluation test it initially failed.
For instance, the automotive engineer said that Growler failed a transportability demonstration at Patuxent River Naval Air Station in September 2004. Passage of that test was supposedly required before moving on to other tests, one at Twenty-nine Palms and the other at the Neveda Autmotive Test Center.
The Growler's demonstration team had unacceptable difficulty loading and unloading the Growler on the Osprey. The short wheel base made backing a trailer difficult, so the Marines devised a system to winch the trailer in, rear end first, and then back in the Growler and hook up the trailer once inside the aircraft.
According to that source, the Growler team was allowed ``a re-do,' a chance to retake the transportability test with none of the other competitors present.
``Call it a Growler, call it a Catto Cart, call it what you want,'; said Bicknell, ``but this thing is a piece of crap and there's no other way to say it. It is going to put brave young Marines at an unacceptably high risk of injury or death and that ought to be a crime.'
James Pate is the Deputy Editor for Defense Watch. Hecan be reached at jameslpatejr@adelphia.net (jameslpatejr@%20adelphia.net) Please send comments to DWFeedback@yahoo.com (DWFeedback@yahoo.com)
...If it's got wheels or tracks it beats walking.
TS
When the Rangers jumped into the Sudan in 83 to link up with us our SGM said "Sir, here are the trucks for your men."
Commander's reply "We'll walk"
SGM's reply "See that sky glow off on the horizon? Thats where we'll be." And there we went, in our trucks.
Pete
First time I ever saw a ROPU unit attached to an SF Company. If we had the Corps Bread Detachment we'd have been set.
greenberetTFS
02-05-2009, 15:50
Wow! Tactical Golf carts?!?! And sham-wow is included! What a bargain!! :D
I agree,that's what it is, a "tactical golf cart"..............:rolleyes::p
GB TFS :munchin
This thing reminds me of the old joke about how government contracting works.
Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House. One is from New York , another is from Tennessee, and the third is from Florida. All three go with a White House official to examine the fence.
The Florida contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. "Well..." he says, "I figure the job will run about $900...$400 for materials, $400 for my crew, and $100 profit for me."
The Tennessee contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for $700...$300 for materials, $300 for my crew, and $100 profit for me."
The New York contractor doesn't measure or figure, but leans over to the
White House official and whispers, "$2,700."
The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the other guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?"
The New York contractor whispers back, "$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Tennessee to fix the fence."
"Done!" replies the government official.
On another note, I was on a composite SCUBA ODA OPCON to NOSC to test the MARS inflatable boats and silent running outboard motors. Half of the boats were kevlar and half were neoprene. However, all were made under govt contract by a firm called West Virginia Rubbercrafters who had never made such a boat prior to this--they normally manufactured inflatable swimming pools, individual floating pool rafts, inflatable pool toys, etc. They got the contract under the rules that a % of all govt contracts had to go to minority, non-competitive, small businesses. We had trouble from the git go with the quality of the boats--e.g., transoms coming off during high-speed OTH transits at 26 kts, problems with the automatic-inflation systems after a Limp Duck or lock-out from a sub--and, although the concept was a good one, recommended they be built by either Zodiac or Avon...even if the cost was a bit higher.
Seems as if some things never change...no matter how much you hope! ;)
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Dozer523
02-06-2009, 22:00
TS Wrote: Before I went Special Forces I was a "Paratrooper" airborne infantry. After we jumped out of those wonderful airplanes guess what we did? Walked, everywhere.
If it's got wheels or tracks it beats walking.
TS
An old Tanker explained it to me, this way. . .
"EVERYbody love da Armahh, da Finace love the Armahh -- we keep the enemy away from da money. Da Artillery love the Armahh -- we keep the enemy away from the cannons. Da Air Force love the Armahh -- we keep the enemy away from the runway. But the Infantry love the Armahh da best. Da Infantry love to ride on da Armahh!
(The M60 series and every tank before it came with what was called the grunt rail. Used to hold on to when the tankers didn't have their muddy overboot crammed into them)
An old Tanker explained it to me, this way. . .
"EVERYbody love da Armahh,
My uncle was an Infantry Platoon Leader in the 30th ID during WW2 and literally walked across most of Central Europe...and he thought the "Armahh" were a bunch of prima donna pussies. He used to say that the "Armahh" would go speeding by, waving, shouting, spraying dust or mud...until they hit resistance and lost a tank or two. Then they would take up overwatch positions and await the Infantry to push forward and engage and clear the enemy before advancing once again. He used to chuckle whenever somebody talked about the heroics of the "Armahh" or he heard Gerry Owen being played. ;) OTOH, when I was drafted, he told me that I should think about the "Armahh" because they did get to ride everywhere they went. :p
Personally, I'm glad I ignored his advice and did it my way.
Richard's $.02 :munchin