Appleseed Project

[sparks1]

I did a search here (all forums) and found nothing on the"Appleseed Project", so here I go.
The Appleseed Project is a new movement in this country that teaches basic rifleman skills with some Revolutionary war era history blended in. The purpose of the history is to remind us about what the founding fathers sacrificed to gain us our current rights that are being allowed to erode while we sit on our duffs .
Appleseed Project, hereafter refered to as AS, is a 2 day event at gun ranges around the country where qualified instructors will teach participants use of sling, NPOA (natural point of Aim) windage and distance adjusments, breathing, and trigger pull among other skills. More information is available by doing a search for Appleseed Project and going to their site. I do not have the answers to questions, so go there and see for yourself, if interested. Their main need is cooperative ranges and instructors.
I have not been to one , but am registered for one in April along with 2 of my nephews. Besides getting them into the shooting sport, they will get some history undoubtably not taught in our school systems. My home gunrange was very receptive to the event and is now working out details and times with the state coordinator for AS.
Did I say kids,females, and military members shoot for free? Fee for others is $70.00 for 2 days, any rifle will do, including .22 cal rimfire. Shooting is done at 25 yds with reduced size targets simulating up to 500 yds on the first day. Day 2 brings longer distances should the range accomadate it.
Interested???? Go to their site, be sure to click on the RWVA link button and read their forum entries. The Blog has some riveting reading also.
hope to shake your hand at one of these events in the future.
Ron

[BigJimCalhoun]

I am signed up for April 18 and 19.

I have some work to do before then such as acquiring some swivels for the 10/22 and deciding what to do for the high-power shoot. Unless I can scare up some 30.06 ammo I will be taking 7.62x39 with me.

[Gypsy]

I hope you guys wouldn't mind posting an AAR after you go? Interestingly my brother sent me this link just this morning.

[BigJimCalhoun]

Here is my after-action report, though my action was incomplete and I need an attitude adjustment. This report is embarrassing for me, given the skillset, character and experience of the members here, but I am a new shooter and am learning.

Yesterday (Sat, April 18th) was a pretty big snow day here in Colorado. The range is 50 miles from my house with the last 5 miles down what is a really muddy, greasy, country road. Given yesterday's weather ( we got 18 inches of snow), I chose not to go due to driving conditions, not because I am afraid of getting wet. The event went off as scheduled however, with 9 of the 42 commited participants attending.

I did attend the second-day this AM. I was able to navigate the road in question with my wife's SUV, but only barely. I arrived, did introductions and myself along with several other started on the first day's activities after a safety briefing. Unfortunately, day 2 builds a lot on day 1 and someone with my skillset should definately attend day 1 first.

For rifles, I brought my Ruger 10/22 which I have not used a whole lot, my AKMS which does work well, and an M4-style rifle that I just built and am not sure if it actually works until I shoot it. Due to mud, we picked one rifle along with some accessories and hiked to the shooting berms after our safety class instead of driving.

My later arrival found me at the end of the shooting line in the mud that everyone walked in the day before. I had access to a tarp and rug, but those quickly soaked through onto me, but the weather was warm enought that is was tolerable. I know soldiers here have been through far worse thousands of times.

My first incident was when I placed the Ruger down after the first round of shots and dropped the end of the barrel in the mud. My day went pretty much downhill from there.

Appleseed is very big on using the sling to steady the rifle. I bought an M1 sling onsite and worked on trying to use the first of the three sling holds to shoot prone. I need more practice with this but I like the idea. It looks pretty easy demonstrated, but practice makes perfect I guess.

The sighting in of the rifles happened the day before and I was having a hard time with my sights. For some reason I was shooting really high. I scored an embarrassing 0 out of 250 when we did the test. I am a lot better with my AK (honest), but am still a new shooter.

After each round of shots the group would go to the targets and the instructors would look at your grouping and attempt to decipher it and give assistance. When they came to me one of them asked if my rifle was broken because there were no shots on the 11x17 paper from 75 feet.:(

The targets were called Army Qualification Targets and were sized in such a way to simulate 100 yard, 200, 300 and 100 yards. A couple of the attendees scored what was called "rifleman" which was the best I think. I heard a lot of talk of progress made of the attendees from day 1 to day 2.

The program also seems to talk a lot of history about the revolutionary war and the militia at the time. The instructors are very enthusiastic about the need for skilled marksmen in this country.

I was not able to attend the afternoon session due to family commitments but everyone was to take a centerfire rifle to the 600 yard range and attempt some 500 yard shots using iron sights.

I may or may not do this event again. I will however take some of the lessons and apply them when at the range.

Should anyone be interested in an appleseed, learn from my mistakes


I used the stock sights on the 10/22. This evening I ordered some peep sights from Tech-sights.com
Go to both sessions, or at least the first one.
Get 1-1/4 swivels for the rifle and get one of the M1 slings, or similar. I used Uncle Mikes swivels
Get a waterproof mat, not one you think is waterproof.
Search for rifle sling videos on youtube and get an idea of what is going to happen and what will be asked..
Bring a bore-snake or similar with you. (I had one and needed it)
Don't assume that if your rifle is new from Wal-Mart, that it is sighted in enough for the class.

[frostfire]

BigJimCalhoun,

I'm sort of stepping on the role of the masters here (Gene Econ and Longrange1947) so I'm treading carefully.

- Rifleman is basic qualification. Best is expert or high master, depending on which standard used.

- You mentioned you missed foundations from day 1. After missing target at 75 feet, did the instructors review with you "sight alignment" ? I won't delve into it as much have been discussed. You can search for it, or read relevant posts by the masters above.

- Your mistakes/lesson-learned are much around equipment. Did you bring any take home lesson on concepts (NPOA, sight alignment, positions, bone support etc.), and skill sets?

Don't get discouraged. Just as one of my esteemed mentor told me after a sniper match with a poor turnout: You chose to show up and gut it out, whereas others cowered away and stayed in their comfort zone.

We all start somewhere. I learned the most when the outcome was worse than what I expected. I hope you continue to hone your marksmanship skills. IMHO, every American who believes in the 2nd amendment should/would strive to achieve and maintain marksmanship proficiency relevant to their AO.


I did a search here (all forums) and found nothing on the"Appleseed Project", so here I go.
The Appleseed Project is a new movement in this country that teaches basic rifleman skills with some Revolutionary war era history blended in. The purpose of the history is to remind us about what the founding fathers sacrificed to gain us our current rights that are being allowed to erode while we sit on our duffs .
Appleseed Project, hereafter refered to as AS, is a 2 day event at gun ranges around the country where qualified instructors will teach participants use of sling, NPOA (natural point of Aim) windage and distance adjusments, breathing, and trigger pull among other skills. More information is available by doing a search for Appleseed Project and going to their site. I do not have the answers to questions, so go there and see for yourself, if interested. Their main need is cooperative ranges and instructors.


Not much revolutionary war history other than tell tale exchanges among the old salts, but at the range here BRM is taught every month since mid 90's in a high power match format. I really look up to the match director, who lives the 2nd Amendment by teaching marksmanship to folks of all ages, gender, sizes as a safe and challenging activity. Occasionally he let me teach the class. I always enjoyed it when new shooters (esp the ladies :D) start hitting 10 ring and they're so ecstatic after performing a feat they thought was impossible (iron sight, can't see well the miniscule blurry target, etc). I told them they're the ones who pull the trigger. They should take all the credit and be proud of that.

[BigJimCalhoun]

Thank you for your encouragement Frostfire. I do have some take home lessons and am going to practice to get good. I don't have any other hobbies aside from exercise and I want to get good at this and pass this skill to my son. I am going to practice the sling holds, dry-firing, etc in my basement and hit the range when I can.

This also gives me something useful to work towards while at the range. Many people go there and just rapid fire AKs or ARs for fun, or sit at a bench all day and fire the rifles @ 100 yards

No one assisted me with adjusting my sights. The program was moving too quickly at that point and there was only a small preparation time between shots. I suppose when you have a number of shooters, all with unproven safety skills, they need to exercise a sense of order to the event. So, you prep when told to prep, you load only when told, etc.

I looked again at the targets and the ones that Appleseed use are scored as follows:

Unqualified
Marksman
Sharpshooter
Expert [Rifleman]

I am not sure how this directly related to actual military qualifications, aside from the targets titled as AQT. I would be interested to hear from others regarding how realistic the list above is.

BJC

[Team Sergeant]

Thank you for your encouragement Frostfire. I do have some take home lessons and am going to practice to get good. I don't have any other hobbies aside from exercise and I want to get good at this and pass this skill to my son. I am going to practice the sling holds, dry-firing, etc in my basement and hit the range when I can.

This also gives me something useful to work towards while at the range. Many people go there and just rapid fire AKs or ARs for fun, or sit at a bench all day and fire the rifles @ 100 yards

No one assisted me with adjusting my sights. The program was moving too quickly at that point and there was only a small preparation time between shots. I suppose when you have a number of shooters, all with unproven safety skills, they need to exercise a sense of order to the event. So, you prep when told to prep, you load only when told, etc.

I looked again at the targets and the ones that Appleseed use are scored as follows:

Unqualified
Marksman
Sharpshooter
Expert [Rifleman]

I am not sure how this directly related to actual military qualifications, aside from the targets titled as AQT. I would be interested to hear from others regarding how realistic the list above is.

BJC

Looks like good training.....;)

I went to the website, I like what I saw. If and when it hits the Phoenix area I'll teach for free......;)

Team Sergeant

[sf11b_p]

How bout...

Buckeye, AZ —Oct 24 & 25 Buckeye Hills Recreational Area-Gen. Joe Foss Shooting Complex

Buckeye Hills AZ - October 2009.pdf (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5550.0;attach=7449 )

Buckeye, AZ —Nov 28 & 29

Buckeye Hills AZ - November 2009.pdf (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5550.0;attach=7450 )

[BigJimCalhoun]

The main chapter of appleseed appears to have contacted those who did not get to attend the event mentioned above due to weather, offering a free retake. I replied that I missed Saturday and could I partake in the Saturday portion. They replied back that I could attend both days for free.:)

I have the new sights on my rifle, along with the recommended sling so I will be more prepared for next time.

[BigJimCalhoun]

I did it again today and scored 118 out of 250, an improvement over 0 out of 250 last time.

If I reached 125 I would have been graded marksman, 170 for sharpshooter and 210 for rifleman. Essentially, I missed rifleman by one shot from the prone position. I did well on the standing and seated, but poorly while prone. The target get progressively smaller for prone to simulate a 4 MOA shot at 300 or 400 yards.

If anyone wants me to scan the target I can do that.

[Peregrino]

Go on-line, find a local CMP (www.odcmp.com/) affiliated club, and participate in real High Power Competition at ranges out to 600M. You'll learn a lot more about marksmanship (and actually have to prove ability vs. "plinking" at a 25M reduced scale target), meet a quality group of people (ones less likely to need several layers of aluminum foil in/under their chapeau), and qualify to purchase an M1 Garand and ammo for it directly from the government (CMP is a gov't agency) at a reasonable price.

The Army uses 25M targets for qualification. It's not marksmanship! And if you really needed the included political indoctrination, you probably wouldn't be the type to be wasting time at a shooting range. Yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about; I occasionally shoot HP at RWVA's home range. It's always interesting to see who shows up and what their agenda is.

[BigJimCalhoun]

Go on-line, find a local CMP (CMP.org) affiliated club, and participate in real High Power Competition at ranges out to 600M. You'll learn a lot more about marksmanship (and actually have to prove ability vs. "plinking" at a 25M reduced scale target), meet a quality group of people (ones less likely to need several layers of aluminum foil in/under their chapeau), and qualify to purchase an M1 Garand and ammo for it directly from the government (CMP is a gov't agency) at a reasonable price.

The Army uses 25M targets for qualification. It's not marksmanship! And if you really needed the included political indoctrination, you probably wouldn't be the type to be wasting time at a shooting range. Yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about; I occasionally shoot HP at RWVA's home range. It's always interesting to see who shows up and what their agenda is.

My gun club has a 600 yard range and once a month high-power matches. am thinking of doing those. My club also has a relationship established with the CMP. I own a variant of an AR-15 with a 16 inch barrel and iron sights. Would that gun be ok for the high-power matches?

I understand what you are saying about the political stuff. They went on and on at lunch with some long dragged out story but then kept yelling "quickly, quickly" later in the day;)

[Peregrino]

My gun club has a 600 yard range and once a month high-power matches. am thinking of doing those. My club also has a relationship established with the CMP. I own a variant of an AR-15 with a 16 inch barrel and iron sights. Would that gun be ok for the high-power matches?

I understand what you are saying about the political stuff. They went on and on at lunch with some long dragged out story but then kept yelling "quickly, quickly" later in the day;)

No, 16" is not OK. If you have a fixed stock for it you can purchase a match upper from one of the big boys and have "two" rifles for a reasonable price. By "big boys, I mean Armalite, Bushmaster, and DPMS. The match uppers are easier to get right now because Walter Mittie isn't interested in "elitest" firearms that might actually require more than plinking skills. An accurized/match "Service Rifle" upper and a decent trigger will allow you to be competitive through Master level. Otherwise, contact your local club; most of the better ones have loaner Garands (that's part of the program) and ammo is usually available to competitors at reasonable prices (not for profit). IMNSHO 600M is where marksmanship starts. If you're serious about shooting, having a local 600M range is a priceless luxury.

[frostfire]

No, 16" is not OK. If you have a fixed stock for it you can purchase a match upper from one of the big boys and have "two" rifles for a reasonable price. By "big boys, I mean Armalite, Bushmaster, and DPMS. The match uppers are easier to get right now because Walter Mittie isn't interested in "elitest" firearms that might actually require more than plinking skills. An accurized/match "Service Rifle" upper and a decent trigger will allow you to be competitive through Master level. Otherwise, contact your local club; most of the better ones have loaner Garands (that's part of the program) and ammo is usually available to competitors at reasonable prices (not for profit). IMNSHO 600M is where marksmanship starts. If you're serious about shooting, having a local 600M range is a priceless luxury.

BigJimCalhoun, also keep Rock River Arms match upper for consideration.
If the scores went south, you can be 99.9999% it's not the rifle.

[Streck-Fu]

I was able to attend an Appleseed event this past weekend and thought the instruction was very good.

The stated purpose of the Project is to combine marksmanship training while revisiting the history surrounding the Revolutionary that has been dropped from much of our primary education curriculum.

Of course safety was paramount and they covered the basics of marksmanship well..

They covered sight alignment, sight picture, trigger manipulation, and follow through. In addition to the scaled AQT targets, we used small square targets for multiple shot groups to evaluate how the shooters were performing.
Instruction and guidance was provided for those struggling with identifiable problem areas.

During the morning of day, a large chunk oftime was set aside for one on one with instructors to observe how each student performed the shot. Drills were conducted in which a different student would load a magazine either loaded with one round or not to determine if the shooter would anticipate the shot or somehow demonstrate any issues.

Rifleman is a term Appleseed adopted as a nod to Morgan's Riflemen of 1777. To earn a Rifleman patch, a shooter must score an expert (210) on the AQT.

Most work was done at 25m but if longer ranges are available, they will use them. The range we used had a several 100y spaces available so we had the opportunity to apply the fundementals at longer ranges.

They do put an emphasis on using a sling for support. They are not very adapting to non-sling shooters.....

If they teach at a range with longer ranges, they will incorporate them as well.

As for the history lessons, it was mostly story telling but they were embellishing a bit. They spoke heavily of individual bravery and sacrifices while deemphasizing resistance to independence by the Loyalists.

They were very family oriented ad try to encourage youth participation. We had boys and girls ranging from 11 to 14 at our shoot. All kids 14 and under received recognition and a youth patch.

Overall, it was a great event and I would do it again. It may not provide much for those that shoot for a profession....

[Masochist]

Streck, thanks for reviving this topic. I was unaware of the Appleseed Project, but it sounds worthwhile and I'm looking into it. I'll post an AAR if I'm able to attend.

Go on-line, find a local CMP (www.odcmp.com/) affiliated club ...

Peregrino, looks like the CMP site has changed since your post, as I was delivered to "La Confederación de Porcicultores Mexicanos" (intersting enough in its own right). :D The CMP site can be found at http://www.odcmp.com/ (http://http://www.odcmp.com/)

[Peregrino]

Thanks for the update. FWIW - I had errands to run in the vicinity so I detoured to the Anniston CMP South Store and picked up one of their Kimber 82s (part of the quid pro quo for the wife's puppy :p). Well worth the trip. Anyone who is serious about shooting or their military heritage (WRT M1Gs) should check them out.

[Gold Eagle]

Appleseed is definitely a good program. Pro founding fathers. What do you think of the "sling" positions known as the "hasty"? Jeff Cooper did not care for some of the Appleseed sling positions. He did like the "ching sling" method. http://www.shottist.com/ching.htm

[Streck-Fu]

I can see a use for the various sling techniques. They hasty was rather useless IMO. We went through a couple courses of fire in which I chose not to use the sling and the instructors were uncomfortable giving advice without the sling.

If I took the time to dedicate a sling for that use, it would be ok, but I found it more uncomfortable and very awkward in any position but prone where it is needed least.

Just my experience.