View Full Version : "Outlawing" criticism of Islam!?
So now, the islamic apologists are not alone in their sentiment against bashing Islam and jihadists, the UN is on the boat now too. If we bash Islam we are criminals? I guess the jails will get full if and when we get pulled in front of the world courts!
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024395.php
blue02hd
01-14-2009, 11:20
Without getting too deep into this conversation, I have to point out that the news article linked from the website you provided is from the Opinion section of the Daily. After further reading of that article, no specific UN resolution is cited. Based on that, I have to say that this is not credible enough to post, unless the posting is intended to spur a reaction.
I am sure I can do more leg work on this topic, but I choose not to. On face value this is not worth any further effort. I would invite you to research this story and add verifiable sources before the conversation continues. We all have certain feelings about the subject, some stronger than others, but citing random articles from sources that openly advertise a specific agenda is not credible, sustainable, or professional.
Blue, Thanks for the lesson. I apologize that my cited article was inept and I should have been more clear. Perhaps my initial comment should have been more on the lines that this was "an older story but one worth sharing". for discussion/debate. Perhaps some of you can add more to it with your experiences. I, having lived in NYC pre/post 9/11 attacks, have seen the discrimination of non-muslims/women by muslims. I was one of those people, when I raised concern about it with my supervisor, it was hushed away and I was told not to be so sensitive. People complain about discrimination in this country all the time and this is just another form of it. And one we all need to take a look at. (IMHO)
I feel that this resolution which is under the title "Combating defamation of religions", focuses more on Islam and Muslims primarily. The resolution was pushed through by the 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), which has been agitating for it for years....I do not support this resolution as it's primary focus is to protect Islam and Muslims. Comments like: "Deep concern that Islam is frequently and wrongly associated with human rights violations and terrorism". Islam is "associated" as these groups that commit these crimes always announce proudly that they are the culprits. It sounds as if the UN resolution would prefer we all sit in denial even when there is admission.
Below are links to the press releases from the United Nations regarding the resolution.
http://www.unog.ch/80256EDD006B9C2E/(httpNewsByYear_en)/625CFD6FC7E6250AC125741100460484?OpenDocument From March 08
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/hrcn1082.doc.htm From 2004
Both of these links are pretty lengthy but they highlight the "right to speak" from many nations, their votes (for or against) and their abstentions. They were too long to post on here and highlight each argument that back up why I posted this.
blue02hd
01-14-2009, 14:20
With respect to your post I have some reading to do. Thanks for clarifying your intent, providing more sources to justify your comments, and understanding I am not attacking your opinion only the confusion it generated. Too many airsofters manage to post on issues that they gleaned from Oprah without bothering to verify any of the message.
I have to admit, I normally do not follow the UN cliffnotes, but this is now something I am interested in.
That being said, I still cannot connect the dots. Where is the Resolution that you are talking about?
The report dated in March of 08 is a large compilation of the UN funded and UN supported reports from their various field agencies and experts. It provides some interesting reading and "No @#*&" points, but does not discuss resolutions that would lead to enforcement. I found it rather broad and "politically correct".
Quoted from the Concluding Remarks:
"Finally, religious conflicts and Islamophobia needed to be addressed in Europe, but also elsewhere. However, the Council must not forget or ignore the phenomenon of Christanophobia. "
It does not seem to me as pointed and focused on protecting Islam as Floyd Abrams claims in his article in the Daily News.
I am interested in what other QP's are thinking, but from my point of view, the UN is not taking a stand in support of Islam based on those two references. They are doing what they do; acting like the politicians they are to justify the budget they don't raise.
Blue, Thanks for the lesson. I apologize that my cited article was inept and I should have been more clear. Perhaps my initial comment should have been more on the lines that this was "an older story but one worth sharing". for discussion/debate. Perhaps some of you can add more to it with your experiences. I, having lived in NYC pre/post 9/11 attacks, have seen the discrimination of non-muslims/women by muslims. I was one of those people, when I raised concern about it with my supervisor, it was hushed away and I was told not to be so sensitive. People complain about discrimination in this country all the time and this is just another form of it. And one we all need to take a look at. (IMHO)
I feel that this resolution which is under the title "Combating defamation of religions", focuses more on Islam and Muslims primarily. The resolution was pushed through by the 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), which has been agitating for it for years....I do not support this resolution as it's primary focus is to protect Islam and Muslims. Comments like: "Deep concern that Islam is frequently and wrongly associated with human rights violations and terrorism". Islam is "associated" as these groups that commit these crimes always announce proudly that they are the culprits. It sounds as if the UN resolution would prefer we all sit in denial even when there is admission.
Below are links to the press releases from the United Nations regarding the resolution.
http://www.unog.ch/80256EDD006B9C2E/(httpNewsByYear_en)/625CFD6FC7E6250AC125741100460484?OpenDocument From March 08
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/hrcn1082.doc.htm From 2004
Both of these links are pretty lengthy but they highlight the "right to speak" from many nations, their votes (for or against) and their abstentions. They were too long to post on here and highlight each argument that back up why I posted this.
Looking at the Mar 08 link you provided, I did a search on Islam, and what I found was that many times throughout the document Islamaphobia was spoken in context with Anti-Semitism and Christianaphobia, all being issues that many nations need to address.
While I do not believe in many (almost all) of the precepts of the Muslim faith, I feel the issue that we should be speaking of is not Islam itself, but militant Islam. Just as there are wack jobs in Islam that use their religion to further their wacked out views of the world, I think we can all agree it is not the only religion to do so. The same could be said of the other religions "of the book" ie Christianity and Judaism.
The problem as I see it with Islam right now, is the majority moderates within the religion have allowed the minority who are indeed militant to be the only voice being heard, with respect to their religion. Just coming from NPS I had classes with many international students, who are Muslim, and their beliefs are not the same as those of the militants. Just as the beliefs of many of the right wing conservative Christian cults are not the view of mainstream Christianity.
I will have to read into the article further, but I did not get the feeling they were singling out Islam for special treatment. JMO
perdurabo
01-14-2009, 15:05
The problem as I see it with Islam right now, is the majority moderates within the religion have allowed the minority who are indeed militant to be the only voice being heard, with respect to their religion. Just coming from NPS I had classes with many international students, who are Muslim, and their beliefs are not the same as those of the militants. Just as the beliefs of many of the right wing conservative Christian cults are not the view of mainstream Christianity.
I will have to read into the article further, but I did not get the feeling they were singling out Islam for special treatment. JMO
So when do we get your full debrief on the NPS classes, ma'am? :cool:
So when do we get your full debrief on the NPS classes, ma'am? :cool:
Whenever you would wish:) All in all a very good experience. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by many of the professors. A great number within my course of study earned their Doctorates through VERY liberal universities, ie Berkley, and many of them held VERY liberal views. With that being said, they loved teaching military members, were very open to our thought processes, even when they were 180 degrees different from theirs.
I have learned over the years if you are only discussing issues with individuals that think the same way you do, you are missing out on a lot. Fortunately for us, the faculty felt the same way.
I have learned over the years if you are only discussing issues with individuals that think the same way you do, you are missing out on a lot. Fortunately for us, the faculty felt the same way.
Sounds very, very interesting. When I was in Cairo, we had an US Army Officer acting as a foreign attache, as I recall, in my class at the American University. The class was about non-state actors, and his opinion was very valuable.
How would you discern a moderate Muslim that you describe as the majority? Just curious.
Stu
The problem is moderate Muslims are getting a free ride on the backs of the Jihadists, terrorists and Islamofanatics.
If you are a Muslim then you believe in it's teachings. If you believe in it's teachings then you believe it is the one true religion. That - and your silence places you on the side of the terrorists. The moderate Muslim is quite happy to sit there and be "moderate" while the terrorist does the heavy lifting spreading Sharia around the world.
Whats the magic number 20%. Does a moderate carry a sign saying "Death to the Juice?" Does a moderate shout "Get back in the oven."?
If the "Moderate Muslims" don't like being thrown in with the Islamofanatics maybe they should to something about it - and I don't mean holding a sign saying "Death to the Great Satan and Juices".
Sounds very, very interesting. When I was in Cairo, we had an US Army Officer acting as a foreign attache, as I recall, in my class at the American University. The class was about non-state actors, and his opinion was very valuable.
How would you discern a moderate Muslim that you describe as the majority? Just curious.
Stu
Much the same as I would describe a moderate in any other religion. One where they do not try to convert me to their religion. One where you can sit down and have a discussion of faith and it does not lead to one saying to the other they wish they were dead. One where I am capable of seeing there may very well be attributes to their religion, and them doing the same for mine.
One where they are happy to live their lives, and to let me live mine.
The problem is moderate Muslims are getting a free ride on the backs of the Jihadists, terrorists and Islamofanatics.
If you are a Muslim then you believe in it's teachings. If you believe in it's teachings then you believe it is the one true religion. That - and your silence places you on the side of the terrorists. The moderate Muslim is quite happy to sit there and be "moderate" while the terrorist does the heavy lifting spreading Sharia around the world.
Whats the magic number 20%. Does a moderate carry a sign saying "Death to the Juice?" Does a moderate shout "Get back in the oven."?
If the "Moderate Muslims" don't like being thrown in with the Islamofanatics maybe they should to something about it - and I don't mean holding a sign saying "Death to the Great Satan and Juices".
Much the same as I would describe a moderate in any other religion. One where they do not try to convert me to their religion. One where you can sit down and have a discussion of faith and it does not lead to one saying to the other they wish they were dead. One where I am capable of seeing there may very well be attributes to their religion, and them doing the same for mine.
One where they are happy to live their lives, and to let me live mine.
I have a hard time with that term "moderate muslim". Having worked around so many of them in NYC and seeing their behavior during the attacks and after, I have to agree with Pete. They don't speak out against the atrocities committed by those supposed "few" fanatics in their population. There have been very few outspoken "moderate muslims" because they fear for lives. They know that in the great "sweeping jihad" that they too will be punished by their own "brothers".
Where does that term come from? Is it the creation of the American press? How do we know who are moderate muslims and who are not? If we try to take action and weed out those "few bad apples" here in our country we run the risk of lawsuits and retaliation by way of "marches"! We have seen, just from 9/11, that they are fully capable of living and working amongst us in deception until it's their time to act. There are large populations in this country that have been building for a long time, and I am sure the Amercian populace around them thought "oh hey, these people are really nice, they are ok with us" and now these large enclaves of Muslims are demanding more and more. Sharia law, sharia banking, etc. We have seen it sweep across the EU and now it's starting here. History does speak for itself.
The fact that the left and the press perpetuate the belief that speaking out against their terrorist acts is considered "racist" and "islamaphobic" is deplorable. Nobody cries out in protest, stage marches and threaten violent retaliation when they kill Christians, or sweep thru a Buddhist village and kill everyone including women and children. If we marched and held up the vile signs that we have seen so many hold up in protest to Israel (which has now filtered over to more US hatred), we would all be racists! And it would not be tolerated and quite possibly someone would go to jail for a "hate crime" and vilified for their views.
Comsmith22
01-15-2009, 16:05
.. Don't much have any use for any one who is willing to die for his religion and take me with him... or her...
there is no such thing as a moderate... They are just uncommitted to getting killed for the religion ... so Far... and that could change at any time...
If you are into horror novels... try reading English version the "Qur'an"...
If they want to outlaw the criticism of Islam... then the better outlaw criticism of of all religions...
... Don't much have any use for any one who is willing to die for his religion and take me with him... or her...
there is no such thing as a moderate... They are just uncommitted to getting killed for the religion ... so Far... and that could change at any time...
If you are into horror novels... try reading English version the "Qur'an"...
If they want to outlaw the criticism of Islam... then the better outlaw criticism of of all religions...
Stop Right now and do not post again like this. :mad:
1st You need to go back and RE-Read your intro e-mail and comply.
2nd You are a guest here and Do Not write like this again in Really Large BOLD TYPE. That is INTERNET yelling and you have no business yelling in our house.
3rd Search and read and search more. you are new here and you should post less and read more.
If your profile is correct you should know how to follow simple instructions that we all have to comply with. If you have any Questions PM me and I can try to answer them.
UNDERSTAND?
blue02hd
01-15-2009, 22:54
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. He told me the other day he has never met an Arab that did not hate jews. He also pointed out every Jewish person he knows hated Arabs just as much. His conclusion is that it will never end. .
Brother, in this forum I would hope that we can offer more than just this, for if we cannot, we are truly doomed. I highly suggest you read more and post less. This is not just a gathering of internet geeks that have formed opinions based on popular magazines or Fox News/ CNN. Many of the individuals here have worked with, studied under, labored for, or sacrificed dearly with respect to the topic at hand.
I asked very early in this thread for reliable, defineable, tangible, and researchable sources in order to substantiate the views offered. If you cannot then your post is empty, and only further fuels the stupidity that oils the wheels of insanity. Provide a valid and intelligent response that can be supported by facts or, as I would recommend, exercise your right to post somewhere else.
AFCHIC offered some extremely valuable advice, maybe you should read more and post less.
PM me to discuss your grievence with my response, as the rest of the forum does not need to waste their time with further discussion of this sort.