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creations_bane
01-11-2009, 12:22
I was talking to my father about the company he used to run. He owned Ascension Climbing Skins and had mentioned that he had sold a bunch of his product to what I would assume is 10th Group in Fort Carson, CO. My question is is does anyone have any experience with these skins, either in training or on deployment, and whether or not they are still in service. For further reference, they were a fluorescent purple color on the bottoms.

JJ_BPK
01-11-2009, 15:10
www.myspace.com/creations_bane

Creations_Bane

Ian, Before we get into fluorescent purple color on the bottoms

You might want to read this thread first and adjust your MySpace self..

A public service announcement by TeamSergeant:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20073&highlight=myspace

creations_bane
01-11-2009, 16:08
well put sir, i had forgotten that that was still even active. I appreciate the advice and will comply quickly.

afo417
01-11-2009, 16:20
I went to Cold Weather Operations School in 92. It was basically an abbreviated version of the course at the Northern Warfare Center... never saw or heard of the skins until a few weeks ago when I was looking thru a catalog. I was hoping the Army might have made some improvements in technology since then...

At that time we were using the skis w/ the spring binding, the snow shoes with the tales and either the black or white mickey mouse (Vapor Barrier) boots. being in the NG at that time we were years behind the regular army in equipment, however the instructors and some of the students were RA.

Obviously my experience is limited, hopefully some of the SF will be able to fill you in more.

x SF med
01-11-2009, 19:29
In the 80's -
Hanwegs
Ramers - with fish scale bottoms that were supposed to work instead of the skins (never did, trust me)
Black skins or wax if you didn't have skins

HOLLiS
01-11-2009, 20:16
Paul Ramer was pretty innovated. There was a plastic type, which when tension was applied the "scales" would stick out. Snake Skins made by Volie'.

I liked sticky skins. I still have the tool for cleaning the glue off. Mohair worked really good. Pros and cons to them. If the glue got cold they did not like to re-stick after they where taken off. Also they were very easy to take off, without getting out of the Ski binding. Mohair had better glide and control when skiing than snake skins. Snake Skins where better if you had to take skins off and put them on a lot.

alfromcolorado
01-11-2009, 20:44
In the 80's -
Hanwegs
Ramers - with fish scale bottoms that were supposed to work instead of the skins (never did, trust me)
Black skins or wax if you didn't have skins

Forgot those wonderful Ramer bindings...

I had some of those fancy "no glue" skins, black, that had a little metal thing-a-ma-jig in the middle that you twisted side ways and back to "lock" on the ski...

I think its main purpose was storing snow between the ski side of the skin and the ski... Maybe so you didn't have have to look for snow when it came time to melt it for water.

alfromcolorado
01-11-2009, 20:51
Paul Ramer was pretty innovated. There was a plastic type, which when tension was applied the "scales" would stick out. Snake Skins made by Volie'.

I liked sticky skins. I still have the tool for cleaning the glue off. Mohair worked really good. Pros and cons to them. If the glue got cold they did not like to re-stick after they where taken off. Also they were very easy to take off, without getting out of the Ski binding. Mohair had better glide and control when skiing than snake skins. Snake Skins where better if you had to take skins off and put them on a lot.

Greetings from Stone Bay...

Anyway, I found that if you changed the glue once a season you had less problems, even in the very cold. They were also a problem if you got snow on the glue. Once they got snowed up you were screwed until you could dry them.

I still use the Mohair (synthetic version), thinner Euro produced skins. Unfortunately I have not found a US manufactured brand that I find as reliable. Clean the glue off after the last tour of the season and reapply at the beginning of the next season.

HOLLiS
01-11-2009, 21:00
Forgot those wonderful Ramer bindings...

I had some of those fancy "no glue" skins, black, that had a little metal thing-a-ma-jig in the middle that you twisted side ways and back to "lock" on the ski...

I think its main purpose was storing snow between the ski side of the skin and the ski... Maybe so you didn't have have to look for snow when it came time to melt it for water.

Silveretta made a really great alpine touring binding. Also with boots like "terminator", cable bindings, Nordic down hill, is much easier.


On the Mohair skins, there was tail clip, that would help hold the skin on, similar to snake skins (they did not work to well on ice or hard pack). I had a belly bag to place the skins in after I took them off, to also keep the warm.

Stras
01-12-2009, 06:22
I used the purple skins at Carson. Don't remember who made them, but they worked really well. They were great for training the new guys how to downhill ski. kept them slow enough to get the mechanics down as we graduated them from the bunny hill to steeper slopes. then when they were ready, we took the skins off and let them loose.

7624U
01-12-2009, 16:38
I was talking to my father about the company he used to run. He owned Ascension Climbing Skins and had mentioned that he had sold a bunch of his product to what I would assume is 10th Group in Fort Carson, CO. My question is is does anyone have any experience with these skins, either in training or on deployment, and whether or not they are still in service. For further reference, they were a fluorescent purple color on the bottoms.

Some teams still have them at carson, as for going up hill with skis I would rather just stop and put snow shoes on to walk uphill with a ruck but thats just me :)

creations_bane
01-12-2009, 16:41
its good to hear that they have been put to use, does anyone know if these are still issued?

HOLLiS
01-12-2009, 17:08
Some teams still have them at carson, as for going up hill with skis I would rather just stop and put snow shoes on to walk uphill with a ruck but thats just me :)

Skiing with a ruck on can be like trying to ski with a unruly monkey on ones back. I made some loops for going over the ski and hanging up the binding, they where for drag one going down hill. I later bought a sled, and the game changed. Down hill became a much more fun. Also the sled had a drag brake (if needed) I'll need to dig up some Crater Lake winter camping photos.

One other thing I did, depending on run out, just let the back slide down on it's own. This was for a heavy pack.

Not sure any of this would be utilized by the Military.

alfromcolorado
01-12-2009, 19:13
Silveretta made a really great alpine touring binding. Also with boots like "terminator", cable bindings, Nordic down hill, is much easier.


On the Mohair skins, there was tail clip, that would help hold the skin on, similar to snake skins (they did not work to well on ice or hard pack). I had a belly bag to place the skins in after I took them off, to also keep the warm.

If you are talking about the Silverettas 10th had, they started with 400s, then 402s and then 404s. They were good bindings. Since I retired I have been using Fritschi, a Swiss binding. Very nice.

I gave up on Nordic a long time ago. I believe ski touring (Randonee) is more efficient. It is also interesting that ski touring gear is getting lighter and Nordic is getting heavier... I don't use lace up moutaineering boots anymore (more modern randonee bindings won't work with them anymore). I used alpine touring boots. Great setup.

Skins don't work well on ice or hard pack and aren't meant to. If the incline isn't too bad you can edge, for worse conditions one should have a good set of harscheisen matched to the binding. Can literally be a life saver.

I did the Haute Route a few years ago on Randonee/Alpine Touring gear. It was one of the best moutaineering trips of my life.

alfromcolorado
01-12-2009, 19:15
I used the purple skins at Carson. Don't remember who made them, but they worked really well. They were great for training the new guys how to downhill ski. kept them slow enough to get the mechanics down as we graduated them from the bunny hill to steeper slopes. then when they were ready, we took the skins off and let them loose.

Naughty boys teaching people to ski with skins on... :mad:

alfromcolorado
01-12-2009, 19:18
Skiing with a ruck on can be like trying to ski with a unruly monkey on ones back. I made some loops for going over the ski and hanging up the binding, they where for drag one going down hill. I later bought a sled, and the game changed. Down hill became a much more fun. Also the sled had a drag brake (if needed) I'll need to dig up some Crater Lake winter camping photos.

One other thing I did, depending on run out, just let the back slide down on it's own. This was for a heavy pack.

Not sure any of this would be utilized by the Military.

I always ski with a ruck on, backcountry or on slope. Practice makes perfect.

I don't do long multi-day trips though. My ruck usually comes in at about 35 lbs. in the backcountry. If my 4X4 won't get me in for a place to sleep I will slog in with a heavier ruck, camp and do day trips.

Not into hauling weight around anymore.

In Europe it is the heat because you can move with 35 lbs and stay in the Huettes. Much more civilized...

x SF med
01-12-2009, 20:09
Skiing with a ruck on can be like trying to ski with a unruly monkey on ones back.


Reminds me of my first WET... learning to ski with a ruck was different from anything else - and I knew a little about skiing...

There were a few Instructors who were evil as hell - see the moguls - ski them with Ramers LBE and a ruck. Have you ever had a Ramer binding release at 30 mph on a friggin buried VW van with a 70 lb ruck strapped to your back, while dressed in 1st Gen goretex. You stop suddenly when you hit a tree or reach the bottom of the hill (crowd of civilians waiting for a lift - bowling for ski bunnies, as it were) or a snowdrift off the slope. :eek:

Soldiers with rucks bounce and slide well...

HOLLiS
01-12-2009, 20:54
I always ski with a ruck on, backcountry or on slope. Practice makes perfect.

I don't do long multi-day trips though. My ruck usually comes in at about 35 lbs. in the backcountry. If my 4X4 won't get me in for a place to sleep I will slog in with a heavier ruck, camp and do day trips.

Not into hauling weight around anymore.

In Europe it is the heat because you can move with 35 lbs and stay in the Huettes. Much more civilized...

About the same here, If I skied with a ruck, I try to keep the weight down. I don't like to go over 25 pounds. I have skied off of a few mountains and a lighter ruck is a necessity. I ski on "Telemark" equipment. Free heel skiing gives some benefits in skiing off-piste. In stead of the parallel turn, the telemark turns is great for crud, breakable crust. It is a little weaker on ice.

Again for camping and long trips a poke/sled is the way to go. One can haul a lot more with less effort. On one Crater Lake ski, I had ice climbing equipment, my wife's stuff, a heavy four season tent and my stuff. She just had a light pack with just the necessities.



X SF, I was not a fan of Ramer bindings, Silveretta seemed to have been a better set up. I can imagine the view for the chairs.

JAB10th
01-13-2009, 09:06
I have recently retired and I think I still have a pair of the purple skins. They worked well as long as you maintained them. Group dose not issue them any more now they are blue.

Hey Al how's it going ?
Biff

Stras
01-13-2009, 15:39
Naughty boys teaching people to ski with skins on... :mad:

Well, if the powers that be would quit sending us Team Sergeants and SGMs from other SF Groups, we wouldn't have had to baby them. :D

They cried when we handed them a rucksack and sled. :lifter

Though Kenny B. did get the 4 day pass for breaking the TS. but that's a long story. TS was an "expert" skier from 1st Group. We will briefly mention his last ski run down a BLUE slope that ended with his yellow tobagen ride courtesy of the Ski Patrol.

alfromcolorado
01-13-2009, 20:58
Ah, the eternal "Telemark" vs. Alpine Touring debate... :D

I tele'd early on and ditched it for AT gear. I have found it much more efficient in any BC conditions AND you don't stick your knees out there and apart looking for trouble. My experience says free heel is not better off piste in any way.

But this argument could go on about as long as it already has in BC circles.

My partner and I met a tele Scot on the Haute Route and he linked up with us. We had to wait on him quite a bit... But I think he was advanced intermediate. I had to fix his ski pole after one particular steep section...

I usually have about 35 lbs if climbing is involved. I have a very nice Arcteryx (sp?) ruck that hangs on the back quite well...

If my lady friend wants to go in heavy... Well, let's just say I support some forms of women's rights... :eek:

About the same here, If I skied with a ruck, I try to keep the weight down. I don't like to go over 25 pounds. I have skied off of a few mountains and a lighter ruck is a necessity. I ski on "Telemark" equipment. Free heel skiing gives some benefits in skiing off-piste. In stead of the parallel turn, the telemark turns is great for crud, breakable crust. It is a little weaker on ice.

Again for camping and long trips a poke/sled is the way to go. One can haul a lot more with less effort. On one Crater Lake ski, I had ice climbing equipment, my wife's stuff, a heavy four season tent and my stuff. She just had a light pack with just the necessities.



X SF, I was not a fan of Ramer bindings, Silveretta seemed to have been a better set up. I can imagine the view for the chairs.

alfromcolorado
01-13-2009, 21:00
Well, if the powers that be would quit sending us Team Sergeants and SGMs from other SF Groups, we wouldn't have had to baby them. :D

They cried when we handed them a rucksack and sled. :lifter

Though Kenny B. did get the 4 day pass for breaking the TS. but that's a long story. TS was an "expert" skier from 1st Group. We will briefly mention his last ski run down a BLUE slope that ended with his yellow tobagen ride courtesy of the Ski Patrol.

Yeah, some of them needed to be "broke" in a bit.

alfromcolorado
01-13-2009, 21:02
They worked well as long as you maintained them.


Yeah, what's up with this having to maintain gear shit?

Doing fine Biff, how about you?

I am working down in Jarhead land and there ain't no decent skiing for days!!

BulletcatchR
01-29-2009, 08:02
I used the purple skins at Carson. Don't remember who made them, but they worked really well. They were great for training the new guys how to downhill ski. kept them slow enough to get the mechanics down as we graduated them from the bunny hill to steeper slopes. then when they were ready, we took the skins off and let them loose.

I've seen purple bottom skins around, not messed with them tho.
I've been using the USGI surplus ten dollar strap on skins the last couple years to keep myself from getting into trouble. I might not do much anymore but if there is snow and I am not hurt I'll ski to mailbox 1/2 mile or so and patrol around alittle on the way home. I brought the "cheap" USGI skins because I didn't want to ruin my "nice" ones, I will occasionally cross a gravelled or salted road and ski the roads before they get plowed so my gear has a LOT of gouges and scabs on it.
I run Asnes surplus skis with Ramer surplus bindings, a decent but heavy BC freeheel rig for under 100 bucks with telescoping poles. I don't mind the heavy because I am PTing my knees, skiing has been the only enjoyable way I can get my wind up to puke level without trashing my knees too much. As long as I chill on the downhill runs.

As mentioned elsewhere, the USGI strap on skins can be modified (side straps and associated pads cut off) and used with glue. Keeping the fore and aft strapon attachment straps makes for a secure setup and workable backup for when the glue fails.


If I leave the house for anywhere but the mailbox I'll wear a pair of Bushwhackers with the strapin bindings and take my snowshoes along for the hills. Back in the day I could cut down my hills but as I get older the trees and brush I need to dodge seem to get bigger. hehe.

I was wondering since we have the attention of skiiers if anyone knows the nomenclature or NSN of the USGI 'strap in' ski binding I used from the 80's, a Berwin Binding style rig. I have a few pairs around for 'guest' skis and they are getting beat. These are the bindings that I trained with as a leg in the 80s, but with differrent heavier skis.

I learned on mohair strapon skins, the braking effect had saved my ass from peril many a time. I once spent two hours face down in the snow with my feet pidgeontoed in 'beartrap' cable bindings. I was 11-12 YO and still remember how humiliating yet relieving it was when rescued... Of all the shit I can't do skiing is one that hurts most.


I found this link searching for information about the USGI Ramer bindings, I've been using those for a few years now without the cable brakage I heard about, has anybody put hard use and abuse to these bindings? I have tried to bust these 'on the bench' and am satisfied. I tend to switch boots and adjust the cables, so that might be why I'm not getting the breakage I had read about. there is no way I am sure that the Ramer's I read about were the USGI model so I ask here.

TNX!

c361

Stan

mffjm8509
01-29-2009, 08:28
its good to hear that they have been put to use, does anyone know if these are still issued?

I was issued a pair again when I returned to 10th last year and used them the past couple of weeks during CWT. They only work with the older skis as Group is moving to a wider, shorter ski and require a wider skin.

mp

HOLLiS
01-29-2009, 12:50
I was issued a pair again when I returned to 10th last year and used them the past couple of weeks during CWT. They only work with the older skis as Group is moving to a wider, shorter ski and require a wider skin.

mp

Skinny ski will work depending on attachment. Stickies skins are GTG. The extra length is just wrapped up over the tail of the ski. I like that, it makes removing the skin with skis on much easier.

I had a alpine touring rig (short wide ski) and Telemark (Longer skinny ski). I had wide skins and skinny skins. I did not like skins that was a wide as the ski, messes with the edges. Again the skins where mohair adhesive skins.

alfromcolorado
01-29-2009, 21:07
Skinny ski will work depending on attachment. Stickies skins are GTG. The extra length is just wrapped up over the tail of the ski. I like that, it makes removing the skin with skis on much easier.

I had a alpine touring rig (short wide ski) and Telemark (Longer skinny ski). I had wide skins and skinny skins. I did not like skins that was a wide as the ski, messes with the edges. Again the skins where mohair adhesive skins.

With the new shaped skis it is best to buy a skin made for the measurements of the ski. That way they cover the bottom of the ski as much as they need to for optimum traction and don't cover any of the edges allowing their use if needed.

I quit cutting them myself since it is easier and not really any more expensive to buy them the best fit.

Problem with fitting "shaped" skins to shaped skis is that they don't fold up as nicely for going back in the back. Don't forget your skin bag...

HOLLiS
01-29-2009, 21:30
With the new shaped skis it is best to buy a skin made for the measurements of the ski. That way they cover the bottom of the ski as much as they need to for optimum traction and don't cover any of the edges allowing their use if needed.

I quit cutting them myself since it is easier and not really any more expensive to buy them the best fit.

Problem with fitting "shaped" skins to shaped skis is that they don't fold up as nicely for going back in the back. Don't forget your skin bag...

Only problem that I experiences in using a skiing skin on a wide ski. While skiing behind another skier. The skin would be in the rut left by the other ski and the wide ski would not, the skin would not have traction. Easy fix was to ski off track.

My first set of randonee skis were something like 80-60-70 and 180cm long. Wider skin would add more traction. Traction needed depends on snow/ice condition. I was thinking if you have multiple pairs of skis. The skinniest ski needs to be fitted. My tele skis where 200 - 210 Cm lengths and Randonee 180 - 200 in lengths.

alfromcolorado
02-23-2009, 17:02
Only problem that I experiences in using a skiing skin on a wide ski. While skiing behind another skier. The skin would be in the rut left by the other ski and the wide ski would not, the skin would not have traction. Easy fix was to ski off track.

My first set of randonee skis were something like 80-60-70 and 180cm long. Wider skin would add more traction. Traction needed depends on snow/ice condition. I was thinking if you have multiple pairs of skis. The skinniest ski needs to be fitted. My tele skis where 200 - 210 Cm lengths and Randonee 180 - 200 in lengths.

Most people I know have wide skis now. I guess I will have to inspect people's skis before launching now... :D

Conrad Y
02-23-2009, 21:57
Who needs skins. Just put some sticky wax from Norway on there and call it good. :D

HOLLiS
02-23-2009, 22:21
Who needs skins. Just put some sticky wax from Norway on there and call it good. :D

Kicker wax is fine for Wisconsin or Kansas. I skied up the Villard Glacier on North Sister, near the top it is about 50 degrees (traverses) on telemark equipment. Near the top, I stomped a platform in the snow, pulled my skins off, and skied down the glacier. Also for pulling a poke (sled) skins are better. I used Colltex (SP?) skins. I preferred them over snake skins.

Bill H, probably knows where that is. Go to Sisters Oregon. Look at N. Sister Mountain, there is a finger that runs to the summit. That's it.

Skins are almost as good a tracked vehicles. :)

Bill Harsey
02-24-2009, 16:48
Hollis,
I can see all Three Sisters Mountains from the shop when the weather permits.
You were here on a cloudy day.

Mitch
02-28-2009, 02:20
There is probably not a single thing I can add to this Skin disscussion that has not been already said, but I need to double my posting output - so here goes.

I first used the skins in 1973 - our little motley crew started up to the top of the Sneibstein (we were in Germany when we started) spent the night in the Sneibstein Haus, right on the German/Austrian border; the following morning we proceded to invade Austria - to the top of that mountain. Used the black seal skins all the way up.

They worked ok - but getting down ws a lot quicker, a lot more fun with the skins in the ruck, but scarier. We did lose Ralph on the way back down (fell over a cliff) - but that just helped him to get down quicker, though he never saw his skis or ploes again. He and his best bud did the one pole one ski trick the rest of the way down.

Mitch

alfromcolorado
03-07-2009, 10:50
I wouldn't mind this thread coming to an end... I am in Surf City NC and DREAMING of skinning and discussing the attributes of one skin or the other just pisses me off... :boohoo

sitfly200
07-25-2009, 22:47
I don't know if you are even still reading this, but maybe I can fill in some holes for you. I just left 10th and along with my normal ODA reqirements was also an instructor with our Advanced mountaineering detachment for the USASFC mountaineering course. The old Ascension skins are still hanging around in the supply cahin as are the old Tua and Hauge skis' they were partnered on. Now we have moved on to other models of skis' and currently use Black Diamond Ascension skins to pattern better with these wider skis' that are about 90mm under foot. Currently we were trying to upgrade these skis' to a better AT model made by K2 as the afore-mentioned"newest" model wasn't designed for randonee but for park and pipe and required more tuning and maintence. Hope that helped. As a matter of fact I believe I still have my old Ascension skins.

HOLLiS
07-26-2009, 11:36
Decided to throw in the benefits of Climbing skins. A very old photo. Tua skis are very good skies.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/meskiing2.jpg

Utah Bob
07-26-2009, 14:43
Skiing with a ruck on can be like trying to ski with a unruly monkey on ones back.

Especially if you're carrying this damn thing.:mad:

sitfly200
07-26-2009, 20:04
I wouldn't mind this thread coming to an end... I am in Surf City NC and DREAMING of skinning and discussing the attributes of one skin or the other just pisses me off... :boohoo

al I can sympathize, I just came from 47 days of pow to NC, not sure when I will suck start a tank but its coming once the reality sets in!!

sitfly200
07-26-2009, 20:07
Especially if you're carrying this damn thing.:mad:

Decided to throw in the benefits of Climbing skins. A very old photo. Tua skis are very good skies.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/meskiing2.jpg

Utah...But that thing is great for staying warm!!!

Hollis....I heartily agree ..Tua's were definitely agreat ski for their time, and fun

Blitzzz (RIP)
07-26-2009, 21:51
when I was the only engineer on the old 10 man team on OKI, This was my additional weight. I remember 22 lbs of balast...LOL.
Anybody remember the Japanese Assault skis. We used then in Hokydo in 1970 winter warefare tng they were short and had built in climbers and you could run with them like snowshoes.up hill and ski down.
we did use the old "Death Stars" too. The Jap assaults were very shout and slow down hill (fast enough to kick my ass usually). Blitz

creations_bane
08-06-2009, 18:42
Thanks for all the great info, not many places like this. Its great to hear that they are still hanging around, and that The BD skins are being used now.

HOLLiS
08-06-2009, 22:08
Especially if you're carrying this damn thing.:mad:

I should have said something sooner, I have a Mountain Smith sled (poke). If makes a world of difference. 100# is now manageable, especially on flat to moderate slopes. We did a ski tour of Crater Lake and I pulled about 100#. On the sleep down slopes I was double poling to go faster. Those with heavy packs where having a hell-of-a- time. I used sleds of mountaineering. Maybe the military will catch on.

Water Rat
08-16-2009, 11:20
Ascension climbing skins are now owned by Black Diamond. They are excellent climbing skins and I used them extensively while with the 10th SFG.

alfromcolorado
08-18-2009, 21:03
Especially if you're carrying this damn thing.:mad:

Leave it at home. Commo just gets you in trouble anyway...

Utah Bob
08-19-2009, 09:37
I should have said something sooner, I have a Mountain Smith sled (poke). If makes a world of difference. 100# is now manageable, especially on flat to moderate slopes. We did a ski tour of Crater Lake and I pulled about 100#. On the sleep down slopes I was double poling to go faster. Those with heavy packs where having a hell-of-a- time. I used sleds of mountaineering. Maybe the military will catch on.

We had Akios back in the 60's. They're handy but you just can't take em everywhere.

Razor
08-19-2009, 14:19
The pulks are a bit easier than the ahkios, as the pulks are smaller and more for individual equipment and maybe a piece or two of small team items. I still wouldn't want to ski or shoe through a dense evergreen stand with one, though.