View Full Version : Spyderco "Warrior" Refinement
TazKristi
01-04-2009, 10:15
Sorry about the confusion with this in the other thread, Sal has suggested that we have a separate thread for this model. I'll try to recap from the first thread.
This is a refinement to the original Echanis Warrior (H1 steel, double hilt, full tang construction with bi-directional textured FRN scales). We'd like to hear your input on how you would prefer to carry this knife. The knife itself is in its final stages of R&D, the next step is the sheath, it will be a hard sheath.
Originally the focus was on a MOLLE vest attachment, but we've heard some feedback with a preference for other options for carry.
What would be your preference and why?
Thanks for looking.
Kristi
TazKristi
01-04-2009, 10:16
A few more images...
Basenshukai
01-04-2009, 10:50
Wow! This knife design has always been one of my favorites. It looks slightly different from the first one I've seen. Will the blade be "bead blasted", or something similar, to mitigate too much reflection? And, I believe that the point is slightly different from the "original", right? When does it go to retail? It looks great?
The design was prompted by Guy Rafaeli. He's Israeli military and trains special Israeli units in Martial Blade craft. He wasn't satisfied with anything avilable on the market and created this design which is based on the original Echanis design.
It's actually quite different from the original design, smaller, dfferent type of teeth, scales on a full skeltonized tang, screwed on scales, etc.
Many modifications to the design and many protoypes were made and went back and forth to Israel. The refinements added to the length of develoment time.
Guy wanted H1 material because the jumpers often drop into water. He also wanted a thicker H1 material than was originally possible, so further steel development was dones as well.
Since this is created for the proifessinal soldier and really does not have a non military market. We want to to know how you want to carry it.
sal
Sal, could you put up the OAL, blade length and grip thickness to help us get an idea of its size, as that could influence carry preferences?
Trip_Wire (RIP)
01-05-2009, 14:47
The design was prompted by Guy Rafaeli. He's Israeli military and trains special Israeli units in Martial Blade craft. He wasn't satisfied with anything avilable on the market and created this design which is based on the original Echanis design.
It's actually quite different from the original design, smaller, dfferent type of teeth, scales on a full skeltonized tang, screwed on scales, etc.
Many modifications to the design and many protoypes were made and went back and forth to Israel. The refinements added to the length of develoment time.
Guy wanted H1 material because the jumpers often drop into water. He also wanted a thicker H1 material than was originally possible, so further steel development was dones as well.
Since this is created for the proifessinal soldier and really does not have a non military market. We want to to know how you want to carry it.
sal
I would think that this knife, depending on the size and carry methods, etc. might generate interest in LE agencies, especially in tactical units (SWAT) and with many undercover LE people as well.
I know, I would have been interested in this knife as an LE Officer. I always carried a fixed blade knife both on and off duty. Some consideration might be given to developing a close fitting Kydex sheath, with options for inside and outside the waist band carry. I'd prefer inside the waist band for concealment purpose. One must be able to draw the knife one handed with ease; however, be very secure.
My reason for carrying a fixed blade for backup, is they never go 'click' or fail to do what is needed at the time. :)
Black Knight
01-05-2009, 14:58
I would think that this knife, depending on the size and carry methods, etc. might generate interest in LE agencies, especially in tactical units (SWAT) and with many undercover LE people as well.
My reason for carrying a fixed blade for backup, is they never go 'click' or fail to do what is needed at the time. :)
Here here
Just looking at it against those blinds I would have to guess about 8-9 inches overall length. If that is the case I would prefer Molle type attachment, with possible option of mounting on a belt.
Looks to be a very nice design. I have been in the market for a fixed blade and would definitely be interested in a subdued version. Any ideas on release date or price range?
The Reaper
01-05-2009, 15:35
Sal/Kristi:
How close is this to Mike Echanis' original design, if I might ask?
He was a helluva guy, especially with a knife or a stick.
Nice piece.
TR
TazKristi
01-05-2009, 20:57
Sal/Kristi:
How close is this to Mike Echanis' original design, if I might ask?
He was a helluva guy, especially with a knife or a stick.
Nice piece.
TR
TR,
It is similar in appearance and that's about where the similarity ends.
I'll post specs for it in the morning.
Kristi
TazKristi
01-06-2009, 11:22
As promised here are the specs.
Overall Length: 10 5/8" (269mm)
Cutting Edge Length: 5 5/32" & 2 3/4" (131 & 70mm)
Blade Length: 5 1/16" (144mm)
Blade Thickness: 5/32" (4mm)
Overall Thickness: 13/16" (21mm)
Weight: 8.125 oz (230g)
Kristi
cornelyj
01-06-2009, 20:47
Just wondering but what is the reasoning behind the up-turned blade. I can see how it creates a larger surface area for the point force aka stabbing; but wouldn't the same result be achieved with a similar tanto type point where the thicker center blade is a three edge angled to the point where the most force is applied in vigorous motions? I like the idea of the serrated area on the back of the blade but does this hinder the utilitarian uses of the knife such as splitting tinder etc when you need this area for applied pressure?
With that being said it looks like a nice piece of metal with a very sure grip.
Just wondering but what is the reasoning behind the up-turned blade.
Its a purpose-built design meant for fighting, with little regard for utility use. The upswept point and deep belly both facilitate deep slashes and wide stab channels, while the reverse curve of the spine serves to 'pull' material into the serrations in drawing cuts.
cornelyj
01-07-2009, 14:23
More simply put; to make things that are alive and moving at you dead quickly.
Who made the original Echanis Warrior? Was it Al Mar or did they also make a version?
(photo borrowed from a for sale forum)
Orko,
not sure who designed it first because it could of been either Bob Taylor or Randy Wanner or both. Michael Echanis had some input in the desgn too. I use to own two of those knives. Sadly they are gone now. First off, the knife is to be used in the "Reverse grip" method of holding knives. The inner edge will be where the serrerated edge ( I use "serrerated" very loosely here because it is not a true serreration) is used for ripping and/or scaling the victim. It makes a terrible wound on the victim when used like this. Secondly, it is not reccomended to be used in the forward grip. This knife is a slasher not a stabber. Too many thrusts into the body will create a stuck knife into bone and/or between bones, hence the great curvature of the blade. Thirdly, this IS NOT a survival knife, period, rather this is a "Fighting Knife" only! The original name for this knife is the Hobit Warrior IIRC.
See here for more info:
www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/HobbitWarrior.asp
I like the new spyderco knives... but the police model that was given to me as a christmas present in 1994 still works.
I've had a few others over the years, this ones just my favorite.
Rob_0811
01-08-2009, 10:42
Not an SF guy here, but an Infantryman.
I'd attach it on my belt or assault pack. The only knives I wear on my IBA are very small, if any at all.
If you could do a MOLLE/Belt attachment in the same sheath, that would be cool, otherwise I'd offer a choice between both.
Regards,
Rob
redleg99
03-09-2009, 20:18
What would be your preference and why?
I'm not an SF guy either, but I think your best bet would be a two-piece Kydex sheath with the holes spaced to accommodate the various Blade-Tech hardware & accessories (i.e., belt loops, tech-loks, molle-loks, etc.).
This would allow a number of different carrying options, and would permit the user to experiment to find what he liked best.
Blade-Tech hardware & accessories here:
http://www.blade-tech.com/Hardware-Accessories-c-251.html
Either way, any idea when this knife will go on sale?
Bill Harsey
03-09-2009, 20:33
Either way, any idea when this knife will go on sale?
Tazer Babe, oops, I mean TazKristi,
Is away on business for a bit but I'm sure she'll be along to answer as she can.
TazKristi
03-11-2009, 05:01
... Either way, any idea when this knife will go on sale?
redleg99,
Since we're still in R&D with the sheath, we're at least 6 mos. out.
We're familiar with the gear from Blade-Tech, but we'll likely look at something incorporating our own G-Clip. Still taking feedback at this point.
Bill,
You are too kind! ;)
Kristi
redleg99
03-12-2009, 13:54
TazKristi,
Thanks for your response – I’ll be patiently awaiting the debut of this knife.
My apologies for not knowing about the Spyderco G-Clip.
It looks like a great piece of gear.
What I intended to recommend was not so much the Blade-Tech product, but that the mounting hardware should attach via Chicago screws rather than be molded into the sheath, or otherwise permanently attached.
I think is the key point is the ability to move the mounting hardware to accommodate strong or weak hand carry, as well as the ability to turn the mounting hardware to allow the user to carry the knife parallel or perpendicular to the belt, or the ability to remove the mounting hardware entirely and attach the sheath to something using zip-ties.
If you are planning on using the G-Clip, I think (for whatever that’s worth!) you are going down the right path.
TazKristi
07-09-2009, 21:43
We've made progress on this project, I don't have an ETA yet, but thought I'd share some updated pics with the sheath.
We'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thanx Much
Kristi
Go For Broke
07-09-2009, 22:27
Very nice!
The only thing I might offer is that the knife come with additional (separate from the sheath) attachment straps, so that a person could mount the sheath horizontally on their belt.
This will allow the Soldier / LEO to mount it horizontally for carry without a lot of user modification i.e. destruction of the sheath, by hotknifing the current pull the dot fastener straps off and using those. It also shows that Spyderco pays attention to the little things - e.g. it is always nice to get plastic cable ties with "stuff" if they are used for optional carry methods.
Will an instruction / history pamphlet be included? I seem to recall Ek knives used to do that. Nice sales literature, but more importantly as MAB32 pointed out - it is designed to be used in the "reverse grip." Too often, if someone uses a item incorrectly, they will not be satisfied with the performance and therefore "it is a piece of crap! I am never buying one again. You should not buy one."
Just my humble suggestions / questions.
Regardless, I am looking forward to the sales - the Filipinos will be jealous :D
V/R,
Carpe Noctem
07-10-2009, 12:48
Will G-10 be an option? Personal preference, I don't really like plastic handles.
I am very familiar with this concept / design going back to 1989 when Al Mar felt all was ready to go forward with it as a production knife with AMK.
I spoke with Randy Wanner last week.
During the week in LA when Echanis/Sanders and Wanner were story-boarding the manuscripts for MDE's first three books -
They discussed the "better combat knife" at length -
Referring in part to a "bagful of knives" Echanis/Sanders had brought with them.
Randy drew up some sketches at their shard hotel rooms and when the final sketch was presented - Echanis pointed at it and said "That's the one."
Wanner would take the sketch into four prototypes made by custom makers. He would meet Bob Taylor and the two of them would take the concept to Al Mar at AMK -
AMK produced the knife until shortley after Al's passing -
Taylor would form REKAT and produce a new evolution of the design until REKAT folded -
Spyderco has announced it will release the Pigmy Warrior which is true to the original Warrior concept - and future evolutions of the knife working hand in hand with Bob Taylor.
The original Warrior was designed with the knife combatives techniques of Hwa Rang Do in mind.
Randy Wanner was Joo Bang Lee's #1 instructor at the time and also trained MDE. Wanner would later become Echanis' logistics POC in southern CALI when MDE and Chuck Sanders were working in NIC.
Echanis never saw a prototype of the knife. He and Sanders and Bobby Nguyen were killed in NIC in September '78.
In 1980, Wanner wrote a letter to Echanis' parents - which they still have and I have read - offering he and Bob Taylor - whom he had become business partners with - wanted to produce a memorial knife using Mike's name and image to promote it.
The knife was to be called the "Echanis Warrior Knife".
The family, still grieving the loss of its son and brother and under siege since '78 by offers meant to benefit off Mike's name, declined. They also declined an offer to see a memorial book ("The Knife") published, as well. Gary O'Neal was associated with this "project" in conjunction with a friend of his then living in Grants Pass, Oregon.
In the October issue of Soldier of Fortune, 1980, Wanner authored an article titled "Circle of Stealth - Echanis' Revolutionary Sentry Removal Technique".
This is the only time I've seen the "Echanis Knife" called such in a photo caption (Page 39). The caption reads in part "Curve of the blade on "Echanis warrior knife" draws it deeper into exposed area."
Randy Wanner is still considered one of the "good guys" by the Echanis Family. He still has the hand ground, unsharpened Warrior prototype that Mike and Chuck never saw.
Echanis' final manuscript notes for the remaining six books he and Chuck Sanders were working on when they were killed were brought back to the United States but not given, as promised, to the family.
Paul Glasser, CW Evans and Gary O'Neal were three of the four escorts of the remains of all three back to the US from Managua. Glasser had spoken with Echanis' mother the day he died and offered to secure / return the material. This never occurred.
Mention of the manuscript notes is made in the 1980 SOF article by then editor M.L. Jones. "The rest of Echanis' material remains in manuscript notes, photographs and the recollections of fellow workers such as Randy Wanner. So far as we know there are no plans to publish this fragmentary material - ." It is said the notes showed up at the SOF convention in Missouri where M.L. saw them and declined on behalf of Bob Brown any interest in turning these into a book.
Said material has never been re-located to this day.
The photographs for four of the six unfinished books (roughly 3000) remain at Black Belt Books and are owned by the Echanis Family. Randy Wanner, who scripted the first three books, is the only authority who can caption these photos correctly.
Mike Echanis was recently inducted into the Black Belt Hall of Fame as its 2013 Weapons Instructor of the Year.
Echanis' preferred close quarters knife was and remains the Gerber Mark II as well as the Mark I boot knife. The family retains one of the only known Mark IIs MDE owned at the time of his death. A close friend of Mike's and Naval Special Warfare / SOG veteran who MDE gave a Mark II to while both were at Bragg has that knife to this day.
This is a well produced knife, there is no doubt.
I have one and other than having a better sheath made for it I've got no complaints. Very, very sharp right out of the box.
Good friend of mine just returned from Jordan/Syria tour. He carried / used one over there. He's very pleased and offers he carriend it daily, on mission and used it for near everything appropriate.
Spyderco offers they are updating / correcting the original sheath design (primarily interior synthetic "sleeve" which was not so hot).
It may go all Kydex as is the new Pigmy Warrior's sheath.:lifter