View Full Version : Spyderco Request for Input
TazKristi
12-31-2008, 18:58
I'd like to first share a little background, we are currently releasing a fixed blade model that was designed at the request of, and with input from, the Jumpmasters of the 82nd Airborne Division. Sal was contacted approximately 3 years ago; they were sourcing a better knife; we were willing to design something to their specs.
Sal flew out and spent some time with them at Ft. Bragg. After hearing what they needed and why, Sal began work on what is now called the Jumpmaster. The model went through several evolutions in R&D and the sheath proved to be one of the most difficult challenges to overcome. The sheath for the Jumpmaster allows for carry against the body or on the calf with no flaring or hard, flat spots. It was designed based on what they described as important to them. I’ve included a few images of the Jumpmaster and its sheath just for a point of reference.
Now to my request, we would greatly appreciate your input on a fixed blade currently in R&D. We are working on a new model that will be a refinement to the original Echanis Warrior design (H1 steel, double hilt, full tang construction with bi-directional FRN scales). The knife itself is in the final stages of R&D, the next step is the sheath. My question is this, if you had this knife to carry, where/how would you like to carry it? I will be able to post some images of the prototype on Friday.
Thanx much for any input you can provide. We appreciate you.
*Edited to add, I've uploaded images of the new model (please see post 8). I will have both models at SHOT and I look forward to showing them to you in person.*
Kristi
The Reaper
12-31-2008, 20:46
Kristi:
A jumping JM has a limited number of places to put a knife where it will not interfere with his parachute or his equipment, yet he can still access it quickly if need be to cut loose equipment or personnel.
Traditionally, it has been a calf or boot mount, though you could conceivably carry it on your thigh. The belt line is out, becase of the parachute and combat equipment. The reserve parachute takes the chest out of the equation, and the main parachute the back. A forearm or bicep rig might be an option, but would present too many entanglement opportunities for me to try it.
I would consider making the sheath flexible and capable of several different mounting options for either hand. A small kit with small straps for boot or calf mount, a belt or strap loop, and a MOLLE mount, all easily interchangable might be a viable option. It should also retain the knife securely enough that an inverted carry is possible as some people prefer that orientation and others might find themselves in that position inadvertently and need the blade quickly, hopefully before impact.
Maybe we can look at it at SHOT and give you some more feedback there.
Nice looking blade, BTW.
TR
TazKristi
12-31-2008, 21:29
Kristi:
A jumping JM has a limited number of places to put a knife where it will not interfere with his parachute or his equipment, yet he can still access it quickly if need be to cut loose equipment or personnel.
Traditionally, it has been a calf or boot mount, though you could conceivably carry it on your thigh. The belt line is out, becase of the parachute and combat equipment. The reserve parachute takes the chest out of the equation, and the main parachute the back. A forearm or bicep rig might be an option, but would present too many entanglement opportunities for me to try it.
I would consider making the sheath flexible and capable of several different mounting options for either hand. A small kit with small straps for boot or calf mount, a belt or strap loop, and a MOLLE mount, all easily interchangable might be a viable option. It should also retain the knife securely enough that an invert4ed carry is possiblem as some people prefer that orientation and others might find themselves in that position inadvertently and need the blade quickly, hopefully before impact.
Maybe we can look at it at SHOT and give you some more feedback there.
Nice looking blade, BTW.
TR
TR,
I'll have both the Jumpmaster and the prototype of the new model (we haven't picked a name for it yet) at SHOT. I would love to share them both with you.
Thanks for the feedback and Happy (almost) New Year!
Kristi
Bill Harsey
12-31-2008, 22:11
Kristi,
Nice to see you asking this type of question here because (as you know) this is in the category of "life critical" equipment when it's needed.
Happy New year to you also!
I'll stand clear and let you all continue.
I'd like to first share a little background, we are currently releasing a fixed blade model that was designed at the request of, and with input from, the Jumpmasters of the 82nd Airborne Division. Sal was contacted approximately 3 years ago; they were sourcing a better knife; we were willing to design something to their specs.
Sal flew out and spent some time with them at Ft. Bragg. After hearing what they needed and why, Sal began work on what is now called the Jumpmaster. The model went through several evolutions in R&D and the sheath proved to be one of the most difficult challenges to overcome. The sheath for the Jumpmaster allows for carry against the body or on the calf with no flaring or hard, flat spots. It was designed based on what they described as important to them. I’ve included a few images of the Jumpmaster and its sheath just for a point of reference.
Now to my request, we would greatly appreciate your input on a fixed blade currently in R&D. We are working on a new model that will be a refinement to the original Echanis Warrior design (H1 steel, double hilt, full tang construction with bi-directional FRN scales). The knife itself is in the final stages of R&D, the next step is the sheath. My question is this, if you had this knife to carry, where/how would you like to carry it? I will be able to post some images of the prototype on Friday.
Thanx much for any input you can provide. We appreciate you.
Kristi
Kristi,
On the prototype sheath, I have a couple of recommendations.
1. The leg straps should work best when crossed (this provides comfort and tension during ROM of leg.
2. You may want to add a peice of elastic to a false loop on the leg straps for consistent light tension.
3. and most important, the free running end after the ITW nexus buckles of leg straps need a retention system, an elastice keeper or velcro loop. No jumper wants loose ends to snag and if you don't put keepers, the soldier will have to tape the free ends each operation.
Hope that helps, I will be at Shot so, I will see you there and clarify or discuss further.
All the best,
Mark
Soft Target
01-01-2009, 19:45
I always stayed with the old-fashioned way - an USAF hook knife in the issue case.
If you need a knife while performing Jumpmaster duties or jumping for that matter, it needs to be a hook knife. As OIC of both the Navy and SOCOM's Parachute Teams, the civilian market has already figured it out. Lightweight and razor sharp. If you are doing CRW, then you need two, one high and one low. For a Jumpmaster, I recommend a heavy duty EMS seatbelt cutter.
http://www.hookknife.com/hookknives.htm
http://www.square1.com/manufacturers/square1/p1155.asp
TazKristi
01-02-2009, 10:54
These are images of the new model (a refinement to the original Echanis Warrior). We don't normally release images this early in the process, but given who you are we felt it was appropriate. This will be the only Forum that we share these on.
Thanks for looking and thanks for your feedback.
Kristi
*removed images and attached to a new thread*
TazKristi
01-02-2009, 10:55
Just a couple more images.
Thanx Much.
Kristi
*removed images and attached to a new thread*
Taz, just something to consider, by regulation the knife needs to have a solid sheath. Either completely solid or a kydex insert. This in theory prevents the tip of the blade from forcing its way through the side of the sheath during impact. Check with the Advanced Airborne School on Ft. Bragg or the Airborne course down in Ft. Benning before you make any sort of production run on these knives.
Team Sergeant
01-02-2009, 12:17
If you need a knife while performing Jumpmaster duties or jumping for that matter, it needs to be a hook knife. As OIC of both the Navy and SOCOM's Parachute Teams, the civilian market has already figured it out. Lightweight and razor sharp. If you are doing CRW, then you need two, one high and one low. For a Jumpmaster, I recommend a heavy duty EMS seatbelt cutter.
http://www.hookknife.com/hookknives.htm
http://www.square1.com/manufacturers/square1/p1155.asp
Frog,
We're talking about cutting "static lines" not just parachute cord.;)
TS
Thanx for posting the pics of the "Echanis Warrior" variant Kristi.
I guess the question would be "what is the preferred way to carry it?"
Originally we began the design with focus on the MOLLE vest attachment. Then some had said that they would prefer to fasten the knife on their body like a belt.
The knife is already tooled, both for the blade and the handle scales. the sheath will have to be a hard sheath for all of the reasons mentioned by Lmmsoat.
The Spyderco Jumpmaster model (different from the "Echanis Warrior" variant) is just beginning production now, as shown. It's also a hard sheath.
I might add that the serrated Spyderco Jumpmaster was tested on a CATRA edge tester last week and it stayed sharper longer than any other model we've ever tested., of any steel.
sal
Team Sergeant
01-02-2009, 15:31
I might add that the serrated Spyderco Jumpmaster was tested on a CATRA edge tester last week and it stayed sharper longer than any other model we've ever tested., of any steel.
sal
Welcome Sal!
I've got a question, did you happen to test the knife on a real static line w/250lbs hanging from it?;)
Being a knife making layperson and "end user" I would be impressed to watch a demo of the knife's cutting abilities concerning the static line and not with the CATRA edge tester. ;)
Team Sergeant
Frog,
We're talking about cutting "static lines" not just parachute cord.;)
TS
Roger that. I was replying in general to the other posters here about line cutters and as I stated, if you are a Jumpmaster, you want a heavy duty seatbelt cutter, just like the 3 lb version with a a full grip "T" handle with razor blade inserts like I used to use while performing SL Jumpmaster duty, and still is standard issue today by DEVGRU. My point: Get what works, not what looks cool. ;)
Bill Harsey
01-02-2009, 20:20
My point: Get what works, not what looks cool. ;)
Frog,
Thank you.
This is NOT any form of comment on Spyderco's work but something I try, with effort, to remember. Drive on all.
Sal, get back in here, there are knives to talk about.:lifter
Hi Bill, Team Sergeant,
I'll cut up some static line today.
sal
Ambush Master
01-03-2009, 08:42
Welcome Sal!
I've got a question, did you happen to test the knife on a real static line w/250lbs hanging from it?;)
Being a knife making layperson and "end user" I would be impressed to watch a demo of the knife's cutting abilities concerning the static line and not with the CATRA edge tester. ;)
Team Sergeant
Hi Bill, Team Sergeant,
I'll cut up some static line today.
sal
Sal,
The comment above about having 250# or more hanging on it is key!! These things are a different critter when they are under tension!!
Take care & I'll see'ya at SHOT!!
Martin
Hi Martin,
I can cut slices off of a static line like cutting vegetables with a very sharp knife. Under tension, these lines tend to just separate like they're string.
I don't know about 250 lbs, but I'll hang a weight, maybe 100 lbs or so, and do a cut. I'll let you know.
sal
The Reaper
01-03-2009, 09:50
sal:
Have you been in the back of a military aircraft for a static line jump, or seen a good video of the action?
TR
Ambush Master
01-03-2009, 10:04
sal:
Have you been in the back of a military aircraft for a static line jump, or seen a good video of the action?
TR
Sal,
Download this or watch it on the small screen.
https://www.infantry.army.mil/videos/video05/index.htm
If you have a Jumper in tow, you've got your hands full!!!
Later.
Martin
Sal, have you considered a method for attaching the sheath to the ruck when JM'ing for combat jumps. One of the most popular methods of attachment during slick or combat light is on the calf. When they jump a ruck, most guys mount it on the front of the ruck. On the old ALICE pack it was easy, just slide it in the tunnel behind one of the outer pockets. The new MOLLE pack might require some sort of other attachment.
Frog, I also use hook knives when jumping MFF. You can put the things just about anywhere. The problem is most guys won't carry (or spend the money on) a single use item. Joe want's something he can also use as an MRE opener, screwdriver, prybar, axe, self-defence, etc. In addition you must also be prepared to cut equipment loose. The gate opening to the hook might limit the size of what you can cut. BTW have you been to Otay lakes lately? I had a great time out there last year.:)
First I would like to apologise for the confusion of two models in one thread. Let's keep this thread for the Jumpmaster model shown first. We'll begin a new thread for the other model.
Hi Martin, that is great footage, would anyone mind if I showed that to our staff at Spyderco?
TR, I've been in the plane, but only during training on the ground. I'd seen a number of films of the jumpers while at the 82nd.
I'll try to provide some brief history of the model:
Major Bryan Hernandez contacted us some time ago. He said he was seeking a better knife solution for their Jumpmasters. He asked us to send a rep to see what we had. I told him that we didn't make anything that I thought would serve, and we didn't have reps, but that I would come down and speak with them about creating a model. I sent a box of knives, various models, for them to test and use and gt a good idea of what we do. Then I went down to the 82nd. We worked together, about a dozen Jumpmastes, the Major and me. We developed a model for their purpose. Protos went back and forth for many months.
We felt that the steel would be critical. The first enemy is rust, which occurs even if the knife is not used. The edge is the first to go because the edge is exposed on both sides and is very fine.
It took about a year to be able to get the steel we wanted (H1) and then another 2 years to refine the model and tool up.
For me, it was more a project of passion than business.
The Jumpmaster is now in production. Completed samples will go to each of the Jumpmasters that developed the design.
The sheath is for calf mount. That was their preference. It's ambidextrous (knife goes in either way). Like all of our purpose built models, we continue to develop the design based on input from our users. Many of our models have evolved for 20+ years. It's a work-in-progress to continue to provide better and better product, especially where life or limb is in danger.
The Jumpmaster should perform well for our team. They're strong, light, cut well for a long time. One of the problems with using a knife for everything is the edge is gone, often diminishing performance when the knife is really needed. We think we have a good start on a good all around solution that is still purpose built for the intended use.
sal
Ambush Master
01-03-2009, 12:57
Hi Martin, that is great footage, would anyone mind if I showed that to our staff at Spyderco?
sal
Please feel free to show it. It is Open Source, Google "Army Jump Video" and it will be at the top of the list. It's from a US Army site at Benning.
Take care.
Martin
Bill Harsey
01-03-2009, 16:24
***Editorial footnote***
For anyone who might not know of or yet handled a Spyderco serrated edge, it was Syderco who brought really aggresive sharp serrations to folding knives. These knives come danger sharp and this is so they cut stuff.
I have been lucky to have sharpened many dozens of these over the years here in my shop. My Apologies to Sal and Kristi for how I do it and teach it to be done in the field with flat stones but the point here is that they are SHARP.
***end editorial***
Edited to clarify
Spyderco's knives take a beating out here in Oregon. The "locals" that come around here are LEO's, fireman, loggers, farmers, ranchers, AKA knuckleheaded buddys of mine.
I never intended to imply these knives go dull easy because they don't, period.
After they've cut wire, worked on logging machines and done hundreds of other things they weren't supposed to, sometimes I'm asked to touch them up, especially just before hunting season.
mswilliams
01-03-2009, 21:49
Sal,
Another suggestion on the attachment straps, if it isnt too late. The straps in the picture look to be standard straps, which are slick and dont grip very well. They have a tendency to allow the sheath to slide down the calf (especially on our boys who have Gi-normus calfs) We have all had problems with our leg holster straps which dont grip and end up doing a crappy job of holding the holster tight.
Eagle came out with leg straps with grippy elastic threads woven into the actual strap. It was the best fit i have every come across and definitely did the job.
Just a thought
Mike
Thanx Mike,
We already have production going with the current straps, but refinement is our middle name.
Can you give me more input on the Eagle straps?
sal
Team Sergeant
01-04-2009, 07:34
Thanx Mike,
We already have production going with the current straps, but refinement is our middle name.
Can you give me more input on the Eagle straps?
sal
Sal,
I'll be happy to show you what Mike means at shot show. I have the holster with the leg straps he's talking about. It was a big improvement over regular straps! This is from Eagles website:
Leg straps are made of 2” Rubber Track webbing with a double layer 2” heavy-duty elastic expander
http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=432&cat=54&page=1
Team Sergeant
The Reaper
01-04-2009, 09:57
Thanx Mike,
We already have production going with the current straps, but refinement is our middle name.
Can you give me more input on the Eagle straps?
sal
Sal:
More than happy to walk you over to the Eagle booth, if you want to get the skinny on the material.
TR
Sal:
More than happy to walk you over to the Eagle booth, if you want to get the skinny on the material.
TR
Sounds good TR, I'd like to see them. We've done business with Eagle many times in the past. Good people.
Any day but Friday (16th), I'm booked on Friday.
sal
TazKristi
01-07-2009, 12:31
We did a little filming yesterday. Here is a link (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1079832558993&saved#/video/?id=19203078706)to a couple of videos showing Sal cutting static line with the Jumpmaster. One video is him cutting it with approximately 300lbs hanging from it and the other is simple cuts after it dropped.
I've also included a few still shots.
Hope you enjoy.
Kristi
Bill Harsey
01-08-2009, 23:11
Kristi,
Is that a standard Spyderco serration?
I should ask first (because I don't know and am not trying to set ya'll up) Does Spyderco use different serrations for different knives?
Probably not regulation, but I carried my Buck/AF Survival Knife held in position on the reserve container when I jumpmastered.
I unhooked one free running end of the vertical pack opening spring band, threaded it through the belt loop portion of the knife sheath, then reattached the hook fastener. The other end of the knife sheath was tucked under the other pack opening spring band.
The knife sat front and center, easily accessible.
TazKristi
01-09-2009, 11:16
Kristi,
Is that a standard Spyderco serration?
I should ask first (because I don't know and am not trying to set ya'll up) Does Spyderco use different serrations for different knives?
Simple answer, it is and we do. :)
Sal actually did R&D on serrations. Our signature SpyderEdge provides the most efficient cutting performance in a serrated edge.
Hope this helps!
Kristi