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6.8SPC_DUMP
12-25-2008, 20:01
Polyshok Inc. says their 12-gauge, 2 ¾ "Impact Reactive Projectile" produces more stopping power than any round with less collateral damage than any other round. I'd think a Beowulf .50 has more stopping power and I'm sure Extreme Shock ammo has less collateral damage, but it looks good for LEO's and home defense, if not SF. Look interesting to any Professionals?

The Journal of Forensic Sciences wrote:
"The Polyshok ammunition is a 12-gauge, 2 ¾ in. shell containing a low-density polymer body surrounding a mesh spherical lead beadcore, capped in turn by a high-density polymer actuator. The lead beads are less than 1mm in diameter. Upon firing, the body, core, and actuator leave the barrel as a unit, thus making this projectile most analogous to a slug, without the cone shaped spread seen with shot. On impact, the actuator initiates separation of itself and the projectile body from the lead bead core. The actuator then disperses the lead beads at a 90º angle to the target, creating a projectile with a broad face: ‘‘Over the next two to three milliseconds, the actuator expands the core up to three inches in diameter, and while comprised of up to 14,000 individual particles, is still operating as though it were a solid object’’. With such a wide surface area exposed, kinetic energy is rapidly transferred to the target; this quick energy dump results in damage at the impact site, but no solid projectile capable of traveling through the target, hence reducing the likelihood of collateral damage." "According to Polyshok Inc., this ammunition causes a permanent wound cavity up to 8 in. deep and 5 in. in diameter for both bare and heavy denim-clad 10% ordinance gelatin."

Clips:
http://www.polyshok.com/tactical_demo.htm
rtsp://real.atpco.gannett.edgestreams.net/blackwater/2005/PolyShok002.rm

Home page:
http://www.polyshok.com/

Blitzzz (RIP)
12-25-2008, 23:33
In one unit I was in, we made something similar with a #6 shot shell. We cut three long cuts along the brass line leaving three 1/8 inch attached pieces equally spaced around the shell. When fired the entire round (minus the brass) would be launched as a slug but would explode on contact. Blitzzz

These were mostly used to take out locks on doors. Cut lengths must be practiced for consistancy as sometimes they would not break loose and leave a plastic shell in the barrel. It wasn't a problem as the next shell would clear the barel. The main problem was the shot pattern would spread without the plastic shell around it. Still works ..Blitzzz

6.8SPC_DUMP
12-26-2008, 00:02
Never would have thought of that.

Thanks for the details.

Razor
12-29-2008, 11:44
What exactly is "stopping power"? How is it measured?

Team Sergeant
12-29-2008, 12:41
What exactly is "stopping power"? How is it measured?

http://www.polyshok.com/journal_of_forensic_sciences.htm


Seems all they did was ensure all the energy is dissipated on/in target. None of the fired material left the body once it was impacted. Imagine firing a high brass # 7 shot and it does not break up or spread apart until impact.... Pretty clever the way the shell is made.

6.8SPC_DUMP
12-29-2008, 13:32
What exactly is "stopping power"? How is it measured?

My understanding of "stopping power" is the degree to which the bullet wound incapacitates it's target. For instance, the 5.56 or 9mm have been criticized for lacking stopping power since people have been mobile after being shot with a 5.56 or have returned fire after being shot three times with a 9mm.

How "stopping power" is measured is a really interesting question. It's not something that can be perfectly measured by shooting 10% gelatin, but rather by looking at the proven results on live targets. In 1998 the FBI changed it's ammo protocol from emphasis on the "permanent crush cavity" to include the "stretch cavity" of an internal wound, in addition to it's penetration. Of the different formulas for estimating bullet efficacy none can perfectly predict the physiological response, the psychological response, the time frame parameter, penetration and expansions on a live target - all of which are important factors in achieving "stopping power".

The Reaper
12-29-2008, 14:05
My understanding of "stopping power" is the degree to which the bullet wound incapacitates it's target. For instance, the 5.56 or 9mm have been criticized for lacking stopping power since people have been mobile after being shot with a 5.56 or have returned fire after being shot three times with a 9mm.

That is a pretty broad and essentially unquantifiable statement.

I know a couple of guys who survived torso hits from 12.7mm and .50 BMGs. Would you say that they lack "stopping power" as well?

TR

6.8SPC_DUMP
12-29-2008, 14:23
That is a pretty broad and essentially unquantifiable statement.

I know a couple of guys who survived torso hits from 12.7mm and .50 BMGs. Would you say that they lack "stopping power" as well?

TR

No Sir. Thank you for your real world experience. I think the wounds that they received from the 12.7mm and .50 BMG would have a more imediate and detrimental effect on them being able to return attack then if they were hit there with a 5.56 or 9mm though. I'm in no way a Professional though and look forward to be corrected if I'm wrong. -Josh

Peregrino
12-29-2008, 14:25
The search button is your friend. We've discussed terminal ballistics, including gelatin and live tissue comparisons, ad nauseaum.

Blitzzz - I remember some of the insane experiments at Mott Lake from the late 70’s, early 80’s with “cut-off” rounds and “bondo” bullets. (11BS’ with bright ideas! :D ) We tended to prefer #9 or #8 shot for both applications. IIRC the trick to the cut-offs was cutting the plastic so it was strong enough to cycle in the 870s/Mosssbergs yet weak enough to “fail” and separate when fired. The Bondo bullets required a reloading press and a little more ATD so they tended to be more reliable/predictable. Even the die-hards quit playing when we started getting the Hatton and Shok-Lock (sp?) rounds through channels.

Razor
12-29-2008, 14:48
My understanding of "stopping power" is the degree to which the bullet wound incapacitates it's target.

Think of this as a pseudo-Socratic exercise. So, what are the major factors that affect "stopping power"? Which are more influential than others? Keep in mind TR's example of the 12.7mm wound, and why the subject didn't die. Is stopping power a valid characteristic if it involves many independent variables?

6.8SPC_DUMP
12-29-2008, 18:59
Think of this as a pseudo-Socratic exercise. So, what are the major factors that affect "stopping power"? Which are more influential than others? Keep in mind TR's example of the 12.7mm wound, and why the subject didn't die. Is stopping power a valid characteristic if it involves many independent variables?

Thanks for the challenging exercise. I’m not trying to sell the response as “right” to anyone – just wanted to answer

"Stopping power" is defined here as a projectile's ability to neutralize the threat posed by a target, immediately after it is hit, even if it is alive directly after impact.

Major factors that affect the "stopping power" of a projectile are its weight, velocity, length, diameter, external shape, internal shape and material composition.

Wound characteristics conducive to immediately neutralizing a target consist of penetration through the majority of the target and 360 degree expansion of the wound internally along its trajectory. This causes a higher chance of hitting a vital area, increased blood loss and shock from the internal disruption.

Though the factors are interdependent a projectiles velocity, external shape, internal shape, diameter and material composition are more important to creating "stretch cavity" than its weight and length. (far from sure about this)

“Stopping power” can not be represented in an exact figure, but the sum of observed results will show if it displays characteristics that are favorable to other projectiles; making “Stopping power” a general but valid characteristic. - Josh

Blitzzz (RIP)
12-29-2008, 20:26
Lots of good theory here. I have read a Firearms ballistics book and there was a very complicated formula for "delivered energy" . It takes in all of the affore mentioned factors and give a Ft/Lb answer. If one was to list all rounds and types the list would be at least interesting. but there would be no number that would indicate what was good Stopping Power. figure a .22 hollow point may rate higher than a 9 mm Para because of "delivered Energy". Then there is the nature of the target. IE Tops examples. Just me thinking, Blitzzz

The Reaper
12-29-2008, 21:02
Thanks for the challenging exercise. I’m not trying to sell the response as “right” to anyone – just wanted to answer

"Stopping power" is defined here as a projectile's ability to neutralize the threat posed by a target, immediately after it is hit, even if it is alive directly after impact.

Major factors that affect the "stopping power" of a projectile are its weight, velocity, length, diameter, external shape, internal shape and material composition.

Wound characteristics conducive to immediately neutralizing a target consist of penetration through the majority of the target and 360 degree expansion of the wound internally along its trajectory. This causes a higher chance of hitting a vital area, increased blood loss and shock from the internal disruption.

Though the factors are interdependent a projectiles velocity, external shape, internal shape, diameter and material composition are more important to creating "stretch cavity" than its weight and length. (far from sure about this)

“Stopping power” can not be represented in an exact figure, but the sum of observed results will show if it displays characteristics that are favorable to other projectiles; making “Stopping power” a general but valid characteristic. - Josh

This is all irrelevant and secondary, or tertiary compared to shot placement, which is primarily the province of the shooter.

An inch can make all of the difference in the world between ineffective fire, stopped, and dead.

A .22LR in the right place is a reliable fight stopper, and a .50 BMG in the wrong place is not. I do not see 5.56, or even 9x19, as necessarily ineffective. Any bullet which can reliably penetrate to a vital area can be effective in the right hands.

The average person is better off with a small caliber weapon and a lot of good practice than the largest (or stoppingest) weapon, the best rated ammo, and no skills.

The state of mind and physical state of the target figure into this equation as well, to some degree.

You sound like you are well read on the gun rags.

To paraphrase an old gunfighter, power is fine, accuracy is final.

TR

MeC86
12-30-2008, 06:30
"The average person is better off with a small caliber weapon and a lot of good practice than the largest (or stoppingest) weapon, the best rated ammo, and no skills."



Brilliant. I plan on using that verbatim in reference to training at our department.

blchandler
12-31-2008, 12:03
as th reaper eluded too
stopping power has never truly been satifactorily quanified and universally adopted

three primary qainifable terminal ballisitics we are concerned with;
perminate damage (irrepairable damage)
temporary damage (repairable damage)
shock/wave damage(damage to sensitive organs by shock wave passing through the organ)

there are many other factors such as phyc, env, shock ,drug's(sammies) and the list could go on forever

comman sense when developing the operators need and desired effect's is the most important factor

on one end of the scale is the HD 12Ga shotgun round (high density)
massive shock wave damage and physcological impact

the other end suppressed SS 9mm with doughtnut cutters rounds
massive perminate damage little else

Odd Job
01-01-2009, 08:00
A .22LR in the right place is a reliable fight stopper, and a .50 BMG in the wrong place is not. I do not see 5.56, or even 9x19, as necessarily ineffective. Any bullet which can reliably penetrate to a vital area can be effective in the right hands.
The average person is better off with a small caliber weapon and a lot of good practice than the largest (or stoppingest) weapon, the best rated ammo, and no skills.
The state of mind and physical state of the target figure into this equation as well, to some degree.


Exactly!

18Z
06-21-2010, 14:53
The Poly-Shock rep actually brought several cases out for us to shoot when I worked at SFARTAETC...For what we use it for (breaching) I was not impressed I preferred the Hatton rounds we used it was made of compressed graphite untill it hit something solid then it turned to powder so in essence it was a slug if you need to shoot down a hallway in an emergency. The Poly-Shock had small lead pellets about the size of a grain of sand and they were encased in a small plastic cup that tried to keep them together until impact with a hard surface. We saw these rounds as more useful for law enforcement at shooting thru windows, or home defense. As for a breaching round for us it didnt do enough damage and we always got blowback in our face

mike.