View Full Version : Competition Shooting
So I need a new hobby. Been looking at doing something shooting related when I get home. Anyone in the area do IDPA or USPSA shooting? Not looking to get to serious, don't have the time for that. I do reload though so ammo isn't a problem. From searching the internet it looks like Raleigh/Charolette are where most of the matches are. Looking for something low key that would be fun to do on the weekends. Will more than likely use my existing guns and not buy any new ones(M&P 45, Glock 34, H&K .40 USP).
longrange1947
12-25-2008, 13:56
When shooting becomes serious, it is no longer fun!!!
Shoot for the fun and relaxation, if it stops being either due to competition pressures, then step back, reevaluate and start over.
I have been competing off and on since 1958, I know how easy it is to get too serious over a game. And that is all it is, a very fun game and keep it that way.
Use the weapon that you are most comfortable with and then practice and practice some more. Piss on all the gurus, shoot what you want and what makes you happy. If you do that you will not only have fun but you will shoot very well in deed. :munchin :D
So I need a new hobby. Been looking at doing something shooting related when I get home. Anyone in the area do IDPA or USPSA shooting? Not looking to get to serious, don't have the time for that. I do reload though so ammo isn't a problem. From searching the internet it looks like Raleigh/Charolette are where most of the matches are. Looking for something low key that would be fun to do on the weekends. Will more than likely use my existing guns and not buy any new ones(M&P 45, Glock 34, H&K .40 USP).
Been playing some of those games for quite some time. Pros and cons for both shooting hobbies. If you choose IDPA, your handguns listed above will serve you well. If you choose USPSA your equipment will be suitable for some categories of competition but not others. If your new hobby becomes your obsession you will most likely end up purchasing the same types of equipment proven to best perform in the sport. With respect to Competitive IPSC shooting tenths and hundredths of a second often make the difference. But regardless of which venue you pursue, you are likely to enjoy greatly your time pulling the trigger.
alright4u
12-25-2008, 18:25
When shooting becomes serious, it is no longer fun!!!
Shoot for the fun and relaxation, if it stops being either due to competition pressures, then step back, reevaluate and start over.
I have been competing off and on since 1958, I know how easy it is to get too serious over a game. And that is all it is, a very fun game and keep it that way.
Use the weapon that you are most comfortable with and then practice and practice some more. Piss on all the gurus, shoot what you want and what makes you happy. If you do that you will not only have fun but you will shoot very well in deed. :munchin :D
Command a leg Infantry company and see the jerks for NCO's, who spent their lives on Army shooting teams.
MACV to shooting teams these are sorry ass leg NCO's. They know jack shit and never will never be better then a Captain in the Golden Knights, if that. They forget what troop duty is.
longrange1947
12-25-2008, 19:09
When shooting becomes serious, it is no longer fun!!!
Shoot for the fun and relaxation, if it stops being either due to competition pressures, then step back, reevaluate and start over.
I have been competing off and on since 1958, I know how easy it is to get too serious over a game. And that is all it is, a very fun game and keep it that way.
Use the weapon that you are most comfortable with and then practice and practice some more. Piss on all the gurus, shoot what you want and what makes you happy. If you do that you will not only have fun but you will shoot very well in deed. :munchin :D
Command a leg Infantry company and see the jerks for NCO's, who spent their lives on Army shooting teams.
MACV to shooting teams these are sorry ass leg NCO's. They know jack shit and never will never be better then a Captain in the Golden Knights, if that. They forget what troop duty is.
????????????????????????
Gene Econ
12-25-2008, 19:23
????????????????????????
Rick:
Can't wait to see what 'Sinister' has to say about that post.
Gene
Gene Econ
12-25-2008, 19:26
When shooting becomes serious, it is no longer fun!!!
Shoot for the fun and relaxation, if it stops being either due to competition pressures, then step back, reevaluate and start over.
I have been competing off and on since 1958, I know how easy it is to get too serious over a game. And that is all it is, a very fun game and keep it that way.
Use the weapon that you are most comfortable with and then practice and practice some more. Piss on all the gurus, shoot what you want and what makes you happy. If you do that you will not only have fun but you will shoot very well in deed. :munchin :D
Command a leg Infantry company and see the jerks for NCO's, who spent their lives on Army shooting teams.
MACV to shooting teams these are sorry ass leg NCO's. They know jack shit and never will never be better then a Captain in the Golden Knights, if that. They forget what troop duty is.
AR4U:
How many Shooting Teams do you think there are in the Army today?
Gene
The Reaper
12-25-2008, 19:34
Command a leg Infantry company and see the jerks for NCO's, who spent their lives on Army shooting teams.
MACV to shooting teams these are sorry ass leg NCO's. They know jack shit and never will never be better then a Captain in the Golden Knights, if that. They forget what troop duty is.
I must be missing something here.
Maybe it relates to something before I came in in 1979.
TR
longrange1947
12-25-2008, 20:40
Gene - I'm not sure I want Dave to see that.
I am hoping the individual was in his cups and did not type what was really in his mind. If he did then his experiences were not typical. Know a number of Rangers that would not agree either.
Never spent any time on the Army shooting team but if he was on me because I had been doing comps since 1958, then he is really misdirected. Any case, I will ignore this one for now. :munchin
I have been kicking the idea around of participating in the USPSA. As an unfrozen caveman, the scoring system is very confusing to me.
Is speed or time more heavily weighted than accuracy is in these USPSA matches?
USPSA appeals to me because of their "Production Class." I am not interested in competing with a "Race Gun" because I am never going to walk around with such a sidearm, nor am I likely to use such a firearm in defense.
However, I have been issued an M9 on deployments and will likely be issued one again. So I would like to try and shoot a couple of realistic competitions shooting "Production Class" with an M9. These matches would be more interesting to me if you could compete in full kit, which would be a more realistic measure of your abilities. Anybody can fart around in "Golf Course Tactical Attire" with race guns and hit a target.
I have been kicking the idea around of participating in the USPSA. As an unfrozen caveman, the scoring system is very confusing to me.
Is speed or time more heavily weighted than accuracy is in these USPSA matches?
USPSA appeals to me because of their "Production Class." I am not interested in competing with a "Race Gun" because I am never going to walk around with such a sidearm, nor am I likely to use such a firearm in defense.
However, I have been issued an M9 on deployments and will likely be issued one again. So I would like to try and shoot a couple of realistic competitions shooting "Production Class" with an M9. These matches would be more interesting to me if you could compete in full kit, which would be a more realistic measure of your abilities. Anybody can fart around in "Golf Course Tactical Attire" with race guns and hit a target.
USPSA rewards speed over pure accuracy. It is a game for sure, but you would be surprised how well those folks in "Golf Course Tactical Attire" shoot production class guns with .15-.20 splits and still hit the paper and steel targets on the move.
That's what I was afraid of, (speed, over accuracy).
That's fine if they want to make it a speed thing, as long as they make the targets smaller, such as using a bowling pin instead of a full silhouette.
Shooting that fast and getting "hits" on a silhouette doesn't impress me, especially when dressed for a day on the driving range.
Is there such a match that has the competitors get in full kit, use small and fleeting targets, production firearms - no mods, or better yet; issue firearms only (M9, M11, etc.,)? That is something realistic, and a match I'd be very interested in participating in. Maybe it's too difficult for most people. IDK.
The shooter could start out, strapped into a hummvee roll over drill mock up, in full kit. Start the timer when the hummvee completes its roll over, after the fire suppression system kicks on. The shooter has to exit the vehicle (he is strapped in, upside down) and then engage three targets and then move to along a 50M route to another humvee (with some engagements enroute) where he links up with the other crew and the time ends, that could be one stage. Score is based on time and hits. All targets are small, bowling pins and 1/4 silhouettes (head and shoulders), and/or partial targets.
That'd be a kick.
Is there such a match that has the competitors get in full kit, use small and fleeting targets, production firearms - no mods, or better yet; issue firearms only (M9, M11, etc.,)? That is something realistic, and a match I'd be very interested in participating in. Maybe it's too difficult for most people. IDK.
You should look for a three-gun match with an "Ironman" class. They typically involve full kit, humping all of your ammo and weapons from one stage to the next, and lots of variety.
ETA: I've never done one, primarily because I have zero interest in shotguns.
Gene Econ
12-26-2008, 20:19
That's what I was afraid of, (speed, over accuracy).
That's fine if they want to make it a speed thing, as long as they make the targets smaller, such as using a bowling pin instead of a full silhouette.
Shooting that fast and getting "hits" on a silhouette doesn't impress me, especially when dressed for a day on the driving range.
Is there such a match that has the competitors get in full kit, use small and fleeting targets, production firearms - no mods, or better yet; issue firearms only (M9, M11, etc.,)? That is something realistic, and a match I'd be very interested in participating in. Maybe it's too difficult for most people. IDK.
The shooter could start out, strapped into a hummvee roll over drill mock up, in full kit. Start the timer when the hummvee completes its roll over, after the fire suppression system kicks on. The shooter has to exit the vehicle (he is strapped in, upside down) and then engage three targets and then move to along a 50M route to another humvee (with some engagements enroute) where he links up with the other crew and the time ends, that could be one stage. Score is based on time and hits. All targets are small, bowling pins and 1/4 silhouettes (head and shoulders), and/or partial targets.
That'd be a kick.
JG:
I don't think so. HMMWV's are expensive.
You would probably like the three gun stuff but you would also probably get upset over some of their rules which aren't very practical IMHO. It depends on who is running the match though. Most won't allow things we do by nature when in training so my advice is to really do a good recon of the event and folks running the event before spending a-lot of money.
Although I disagree with many of the safety rules demanded in such events, the fact is that few Army units would even allow someone to run such an event out of fear.
So take it from there. There are guys here who shoot IPSC and Three Gun. Both are great sports IMHO. Rick and I shoot High Power and you most certainly wouldn't like that because we wear big leather shooting jackets, use rifles and cartridges no one would ever take to combat, and we throw our gear into the back of our pick up trucks and drive between firing lines.
What ever way you go -- any shooting sport is a discipline and thus is good in terms of the Profession of Arms.
Gene
Usually you can not miss fast enough to win in IPSC shooting.
From participating in numerous competitions over the past 10 years and reviewing the results of the lead shooters, you will notice that quite many have near the maximum points on each stage.
Top shooters routinely count how many points they lost on each stage, to keep a situational awareness going on the progress of the competition.
This especially applies if you are shooting in the Minor calibre class, shooting C or D hits will severely affect your placement.
For people in the military or law enforcement, I would really recommend the Production class, it keeps things simple and depending on your own skills and goals, there is plenty of competetiveness there.
Many people shun on IPSC shooting, saying it is just a sport and / or some do not even think of it as a shooting discpline, compared to the more traditional shooting sports.
When I entered the Army, I had already shot IPSC type competitions for a few years.
Even though my experience was with a another rifle type, I was consistently at the top in weapon handling skills and accuracy on the range or in our own applied shooting drills.
Why do many of the worlds special operations units use IPSC world champions for training purposes?
They learn tactics from somewhere else, but wouldnt you listen to what a world champion in shooting fast and accurately has to say about pure shooting?
Leozinho
12-26-2008, 21:44
That's what I was afraid of, (speed, over accuracy).
That's fine if they want to make it a speed thing, as long as they make the targets smaller, such as using a bowling pin instead of a full silhouette.
Shooting that fast and getting "hits" on a silhouette doesn't impress me, especially when dressed for a day on the driving range.
Ah, the oft-used "but those fast shooters aren't accurate" argument.
Go to a match and you'll see that the top shooters are both much faster and more accurate than you are.
(The USPSA paper targets have zones and penalties for not hitting the A zone, which measures less than 11" by 6" in the body and 4" by 2" in the head. The steel targets are usually poppers or plates and almost always smaller than E-type silhouettes. Even if you say that 11" x 6" is too big, then realize those shooters could slow down a fraction and centerpunch the target. The only reason they don't shoot with that sort of accuracy is not because they aren't capable of it but because the rules don't reward it.)
And about the golf course attire: if so inclined, all but the most overweight and infirmed of them could kit up and still beat you six ways to Sunday using an M9.
Is there such a match that has the competitors get in full kit, use small and fleeting targets, production firearms - no mods, or better yet; issue firearms only (M9, M11, etc.,)? That is something realistic, and a match I'd be very interested in participating in. Maybe it's too difficult for most people. IDK.
The shooter could start out, strapped into a hummvee roll over drill mock up, in full kit. Start the timer when the hummvee completes its roll over, after the fire suppression system kicks on. The shooter has to exit the vehicle (he is strapped in, upside down) and then engage three targets and then move to along a 50M route to another humvee (with some engagements enroute) where he links up with the other crew and the time ends, that could be one stage. Score is based on time and hits. All targets are small, bowling pins and 1/4 silhouettes (head and shoulders), and/or partial targets.
That'd be a kick.
It sounds kind of cool, but not only would it be a logistical nightmare and prohibitively expensive to stage, I'd personaly be leery of all of the weirdos and airsofters that would show up at a match like the one you propose. That's just one reason I prefer to keep it a game of shooting and not an attempt to learn tactics or play army.
You are free, however, to shoot a stock Berreta out of a duty holster at any USPSA match. That's sort of what I do. (Well, it's a Blade Tec holster and the pistol isn't completely stock, but it's still a Production class Berreta shooting Winchester white box. )
Give it a try. You probably already have all the gear you need for USPSA already. Good luck.
So does anyone in the fayetteville shoot IDPA? If so send me a pm or something id love to come to one and watch and more than likely shoot.
I for one would like to see more "pistol experts" in the army shoot faster. Its one thing we always work on thats for sure. There are so many people who think that the highlight of army pistol marksmanship is shooting one 15 round clip at a 50m target in 5 minutes. Oh look I beat you, case of beer! Faster is usually better in real life, long as you hit the person
frostfire
12-26-2008, 21:47
IMHOO, serious competition shooters learn/got drilled from early on that "speed is economy of motion." What I found very helpful from competition shooting is all these drills they came up with such as the el presidente. They help to take the basics to the next level so that when all hell break loose, you have total confidence in your marksmanship and that's one less thing to worry about. OTOH, I never like the idea of special (low recoil) loads that some use: Those 1 inch double-tap/hammer sure looks impressive, let's try it again with regular load.
FWIW, one of the folks who helped me got started with HP is currently a DM instructor at Benning. Punching paper may not be much even at 600 yds, but to achieve 800 of 10's and x's requires total mastery of the equipments, the basics, the conditions, and of course, the mind. HP match is boring as heck from from a spectator's perspective, but shooting is not a spectator sport.
Leozinho
12-26-2008, 22:12
So does anyone in the fayetteville shoot IDPA? If so send me a pm or something id love to come to one and watch and more than likely shoot.
I'm not in the Fayetteville area now but I'm sending you a PM with the contact info of the person that can help you out.
longrange1947
12-26-2008, 22:39
Hmmmmmmmmmm, I have found that a pistol is what you use to fight your way to real weapon. :munchin :D
Should bring some good ones out!
I am an instructor at the Nat'l Guard Marksmanship Training Center; on the Squad Designated Marksman Course staff. I think I can shoot okay.
MTC also runs the Wilson Match and the Armed Forces Skill at Arms match here at Camp Robinson, matches closed to the Airsofters and any other civilians. This is my first year on staff, I have not participated in the Wilson or AFSAM "sustainment exercises" yet. But I believe all units are welcome to participate. Here is the official publication for the last one. http://www.arguard.org/mtu/Publications/38TH%20WPW-AFSAM%20OMP.pdf
All weapons and ammunition must be issue without modification, all optics must be issue. They do come around and check and make sure you have a plain jane issue trigger.
Here is our website. http://www.arguard.org/mtu/WPW.htm Take a look at the match results in the right pane. We get a pretty good showing of international military units. MTC also runs the inter service sniper training exercise, I think some fellas from 5th group won this year, it concluded a couple of weeks ago while we were running an SDM so I didn't get all the details.
All of our "Sustainment Exercises" (matches) are closed to civilians, but Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are welcome to come and participate. AMU doesn't though, but the Marine Corps shooting team does. Many NATO countries send teams to compete in the AFSAM as well.
There are Hummvee rollover mockups, with the Hummer cab mounted on frame which allows it to rotate simulating a rollover. We have one here, it MIGHT, be used next year in such a manner as described earlier. Also the uniform of the course might be full kit next year. We'll see.
Get a team and come on down. Validate your training.
It would have been great to have threads like this when I started. Best information was from fellow shooters. Also I found the book, Zen Archery, to be helpful. As LR said, shooting should be fun. IMHO, it is more a mental exercise than a physical one. One of the examples in the book, Zen Archery was about this. It commented that when one is shooting for fun, the target is easy to hit, as the stakes rose so did the misses. This also seem to support a article I read when women started in 1000M bench shoots. Women started to win, not that they were shooting better, but some of the men's scores where dropping. The author contributed that to loss of concentration on the part of the men. In stead of concentrating on the target, they where also thinking about being out shot by "a women".
I think people complete for all sorts of reasons. Competition can be a lot of fun or a PIA, depends on who one is shooting with.
This thread has been a great read and very enjoyable.
Blitzzz (RIP)
12-27-2008, 16:30
Not Always but many days. shooting long range is like Zen. I can feel myself being able reach and put a finger on the target through the scope. Everything is so much clearer on those days. Blitzzz
I am an instructor at the Nat'l Guard Marksmanship Training Center; on the Squad Designated Marksman Course staff. I think I can shoot okay.
With all due respect, I would wager a case of beer, that you would have a hard time qualifiying as a mid level "C" class IPSC shooter in the "production, or limited class". Not a slam on you, but you won't know what you don't know until give it a try.:munchin
Standby.....
frostfire
12-29-2008, 02:28
So I need a new hobby. Been looking at doing something shooting related when I get home. Anyone in the area do IDPA or USPSA shooting? Not looking to get to serious, don't have the time for that. I do reload though so ammo isn't a problem. From searching the internet it looks like Raleigh/Charolette are where most of the matches are. Looking for something low key that would be fun to do on the weekends. Will more than likely use my existing guns and not buy any new ones(M&P 45, Glock 34, H&K .40 USP).
responding to the original poster, here's a good comparison of IDPA and USPSA/IPSC:
(copy and paste) craigcentral.com/idpaipsc.asp
IMHOO, USPSA gets really expensive quicker than IDPA, and getting/maintaining the classification is harder because the standard is based on top performance, which can change. Have you looked into local "action pistol" matches? A match that is neither IDPA or USPSA (so it's fun, low key, and nothing serious), but there are still divisions so race guns won't compete against revolver.
With all due respect, I would wager a case of beer, that you would have a hard time qualifiying as a mid level "C" class IPSC shooter in the "production, or limited class". Not a slam on you, but you won't know what you don't know until give it a try.:munchin
Standby.....
Thanks for the challenge, I'll take a look at their course of fire in the "production" class. But something tells me that with IPSC, even production and limited classes are "GAMED" in some way. Still there might be some fun to be had.
If I were king of the world I would prefer a match where military shooter could compete against military shooter in realistic scenarios; as realistic as practically possible.
From what limited information I have on the NGB Wilson matches, these come close. I hope that in the future the Wilson & AFSAM matches will become more realistic; that is more phyiscally demanding with small fleeting and obscured targets and in full kit.
Team Sergeant
12-29-2008, 10:52
With all due respect, I would wager a case of beer, that you would have a hard time qualifiying as a mid level "C" class IPSC shooter in the "production, or limited class". Not a slam on you, but you won't know what you don't know until give it a try.:munchin
Standby.....
And I bet most "game" shooters would have a hard time fending off 2-3 hundred pissed off and determined taliban with what they use in these games.
We don't teach the game mindset in the military, we teach and employ TTP's that work against live, angry, blood-thirsty targets.
Team Sergeant
Competition shooting can just be fun too. IMHO competition shooting is a much better hobby then home genetics research .
I use matches as a chance for me to shoot from all kinds of novel (to me) positions and situations while I am under some stress. Is it perfect practice? No, but it is better then just punching paper or doing nothing (plus it is really fun).
I was advised to not get caught up in the "gamesmanship" and set some personal goals. So I ignore all the games, I kind of laugh to myself at the fracking crazy unlimited guns and game specific equipment. I shoot a production gun out of my daily carry holster, sure I don't win but I don't care, it is just fun.
Competition shooting can just be fun too. IMHO competition shooting is a much better hobby then home genetics research .
Hmm, now you have me thinking. With improved eyesight and more fast twitch muscle fibers, I could be a contender! :D
Competition shooting can just be fun too. IMHO competition shooting is a much better hobby then home genetics research .
I use matches as a chance for me to shoot from all kinds of novel (to me) positions and situations while I am under some stress. Is it perfect practice? No, but it is better then just punching paper or doing nothing (plus it is really fun).
I was advised to not get caught up in the "gamesmanship" and set some personal goals. So I ignore all the games, I kind of laugh to myself at the fracking crazy unlimited guns and game specific equipment. I shoot a production gun out of my daily carry holster, sure I don't win but I don't care, it is just fun.
Great outlook, Sten. If you go to a match, regardless of whether its IDPA, IPSC or WXYZ, shoot the way you want (within safety and game rules), get the trigger time and have fun. If you fail to get classified, or you come in dead last, but get shooting experience under time and accuracy stressors, then the only thing that really suffers is your ego.
If your goal is to become a better shooter, and you improve relative to your own performance (vice everybody else's playing "the game"), then the gamesmanship factor becomes immaterial.
Peregrino
12-29-2008, 14:49
I'm glad to see a few people taking a realistic attitude towards competitive shooting. It is fun. It is also challenging and, if approached with an open mind and personal discipline, it CAN be a quality training experience. You get out of it what you put in it. If all you see is the "game", I can just about guarantee you won't gain much from the experience. OTOH, if you bring realistic expectations and concentrate on fundamentals (efficiency, i.e. economy of motion and accuracy, i.e the basics of marksmanship) you cannot help but improve your skills.
NTM - When you find yourself on a two-way range, it's a little late to discover you can't shoot when stressed. Competition may be artificially induced stress but it's better than flat-footed on a flat range punching holes in paper. To paraphrase TS - "masturbatory marksmanship only impresses the shooter". Thanks TS :D , I use that concept regularly, and some of my victims even (or eventually) understand what I'm talking about. :rolleyes:
Leozinho
12-29-2008, 14:52
I am an instructor at the Nat'l Guard Marksmanship Training Center; on the Squad Designated Marksman Course staff. I think I can shoot okay.
With all due respect, I would wager a case of beer, that you would have a hard time qualifiying as a mid level "C" class IPSC shooter in the "production, or limited class". Not a slam on you, but you won't know what you don't know until give it a try.:munchin
Standby.....
I was going to let it slide, but that is what I was thinking, too.
I'm NOT saying that I'd rather have a civilian USPSA competitor than JGarcia by my side in a firefight. Quite the opposite. However, ceteris peribus, a soldier than has his 'A' card is better than one that has only fired his pistol during flat range week at SFAUC.
Gene Econ
12-29-2008, 20:22
I am an instructor at the Nat'l Guard Marksmanship Training Center; on the Squad Designated Marksman Course staff. I think I can shoot okay.
JG:
You are an instructor at the Guard MTC and on the SDM staff eh?
Are you Army Distinguished or Presidents Hundred? Perhaps a Master or High Master at mid and long range? Or do you think these things do not relate to precision marksmanship?
My advice is this. Army Distinguished is a must. Presidents Hundred is possible where you are. They prove you are a damn good marksman. A CIB or the title of "Instructor of SDM" doesn't.
Just some advice.
Nope Gene Econ,
I have earned no distinguished badges or President’s Hundred tab. I am just lucky they decided to bring me on board, I guess. But yes, I do instruct there. Our last class was conducted in terrible shooting conditions, ice, fog, snow, heavy winds and plenty of rain over the two week class (our course runs two weeks as opposed to the 5 day AMU version); yet 100% of our students met the standards and passed the course, the bar was not lowered. We had a few re-tests on Range E which is typical and probably the most difficult part of SDM; Range E with an ACOG is an acquired skill. Typically we have an 84% pass rate. We work closely with all of them to do our best to help them achieve the standards.
We don’t use fancy pants rifles, or exotic optics, just what you can expect at any old arms room, M16A4’s, iron sights and ACOG’s. (With standard Army equipment the course is really a true test of one’s marksmanship ability, train like you fight, no? Your typical infantryman, engineer, or scout cannot expect to be given a free floating barrel, Leupold optics, bipods and national match triggers, but that’s what you’ll train with at AMU.) I think this past class was a testament to our instruction, of which I am a part of.
I certainly do think that Distinguished Badges, Presidents Hundred, High Power etc., relate to precision marksmanship. Fundamentals are fundamentals.
It is infinitely more interesting to me to see how well guys can shoot in full kit with issue ammo and weapons than it is to see some guys with sooped up race guns, light loads, and fancy pants attire jog around a neat little range popping targets. Now if it were scantily clad surgically enhanced college chicks jogging around popping targets, that’d be cool… IF… they had a naked Crisco Twister cage match at the end and then suddenly were passionately attracted to each other… but I digress.
At any rate, I intend to compete in Benning's Combat Pistol Championship match - Novice class (as this will be my first) in February. I am working towards my distinguished badge. I don't think I will be able to compete in the All Army matches this year because we will be otherwise engaged during that time. I have no interest in high power right now, working only on pistol for now; we’ll see how well I do in February. Pistol is not something infantry guys spend a great deal of time on so it’s fun for me.
Gene, you are right, I need the badges to get the respect. I believe our course might just be the best practical marksmanship training you can get ... anywhere in the Army. I’m a graduate of it, and excited about marksmanship for the average Soldier. I'll let you know when I am sporting that Distinguished Badge.
Do you think any of your students might participate in our Wilson Match or AFSAM this year?
whocares175
12-30-2008, 11:51
just wanted to throw out my $0.02..and if i'm way off feel free to tell me to STFU...if you're having a hard time finding competitions to compete in that have what you are looking for you can do what we used to do when i was in Ranger Batt....we would find a quiet range or place to shoot that had no one else around and we'd show up in full kit and do stress shoots all day. it was just us as a group of friends who didn't want to deal with the bs involved in 1 either locating competitions or 2 the sometimes impractical regulations of these competitions. so we made our own and it was pretty fun. we all benefitted and had a blast......just my $0.02.
I wish I could get a distinguished shooter badge. Cant ever get enough time of be at home long enough to do the multiday events. Maybe if I do a few CMP matches a year in 10 years ill have it;)
I believe our course might just be the best practical marksmanship training you can get ... anywhere in the Army.
"The Army" is an awfully big organization with lots of moving parts, many unseen by the majority; its tough to make a definitive statement encompassing all of it.
Whocares175,
We do a bit of that after duty hours around here, and it is fun.
Razor,
Perhaps I am a little cocky..:p .. But really just fired up about it. I know there are some places where things get done that we'll never see.. and that's the way it ought to be. But for big Army, I bet this is the heat.
Juliet Delta
12-30-2008, 20:45
For what it is worth, I have learned a lot about my shooting though competition (and watching myself on video).
I'm just a civy, who does a fair bit of pistol shooting...but I have definitely improved from shooting IDPA.
If you're looking to practice with your fighting load...IDPA might be a little more "friendly". It all comes down to the vibe at the local level, but in general IPSC tends to be a lot more "game" oriented. When I shoot IDPA, I use my standard carry rig (IWB holster, fleece jacket instead of a Gucci tac vest for cover, and my G19 carry gun). I shoot for accuracy, and good habits...and don't scurry around, and extend past cover like some of the "gamers" do.
There was a comment earlier about the better shooters being more efficient. That it certainly the case. I improved a lot after I saw all the excess movement I was doing on video, then I worked on lessening it. Competition between my friends and I who shot together just motivated me to improve.
I'd shoot what is available to you, and just use it as a tool to help motivate you to practice more, or become more efficient in your procedures.
Best of luck to you.
For what it is worth, I have learned a lot about my shooting though competition (and watching myself on video).
Videoing oneself is a really great tool. What we see in our mind and what the instructor sees can be two completely different things.
The Reaper
12-31-2008, 11:11
I too, encourage the use of video.
It is human nature to deny that we have done something wrong.
When we see ourselves doing it on tape, rather than the instructor arguing with us about it, we accept that we have made a mistake, try to remember to not do it next time, and move on.
The helmet cam and gun cams are great as well. Nothing like seeing what the shooter was seeing at the moment to allow for a great Socratic discussion.
The Simunitions trainers and Paul Howe make good and extensive use of tape in their training. Paul, particularly, cycles the tape frequently so that you get the feedback quickly in the hotwashes between runs, rather than a follies reel at the end, as some instructors seem to do.
It is a great tool, when properly applied.
TR
Gene Econ
12-31-2008, 20:15
Gene, you are right, I need the badges to get the respect. I believe our course might just be the best practical marksmanship training you can get ... anywhere in the Army. I’m a graduate of it, and excited about marksmanship for the average Soldier. I'll let you know when I am sporting that Distinguished Badge.
Do you think any of your students might participate in our Wilson Match or AFSAM this year?
J.G.
I work with Regulars and they send guys to Benning for the sniper competition but not Little Rock. I am not sure you guys would accept them as the Wilson matches are for Guard only (?). It wouldn't matter as Regular outfits really aren't interested. A different culture.
The courses I run for DM's are ten days and I use stress tests for evaluation purposes so there are very significant differences between what I do and what faulty doctrine advises. So far I haven't been impressed with the DM courses run by the AMU but don't know what the Guard does. I don't think the AMU courses prepare guys for combat and I know they don't give them much in terms of perfecting marksmanship skills. The old story of shoot more ammo and you will learn on your own while emphasizing everything except what needs to happen for good enough shots under difficult conditions.
Ask the guys there at Little Rock why they will not allow a sniper team to compete in the Sniper matches unless they are B-4 qualified. He, he, he. It is because guys from the All Guard Team donned full kit and whipped all others. This brings on a point that you may want to consider. It depends on what you define as the mission essential aspects of making a good shot. You see, even though those All Guard guys shoot High Power, they have done one thing that most Army schools don't train guys to do or even emphasize in training. The guys who shoot High Power and are top of the line have trained their finger to move when their eyes have seen the degree of perfection they know is needed for success. And they move the trigger without moving the barrel.
Now some say "put on full kit, shoot a rack grade carbine and ball ammo and then see how well you do." This is not the type of statement I would place bets on. The really superb shooters -- guys who hold High Master scores in national competition, repeatedly get the Presidents Hundred and who vie for national level titles are so used to shooting in different conditions that their abilities don't drop because of the enviornment or what they are wearing. They understand that ball ammo and a rack grade rifle won't shoot as well as their match grade rifles and match grade ammo but aside from that -- they don't allow other things to bother them. In other words, they can maintain their focus despite helmets, body armor, etc. Take my word for it -- time factors mean nothing to them either. Their performance levels don't change much due to the environment or anything else. Also, they know what to train on and how to train which are two more things lacking in doctrinal schools.
Becoming Distinguished or Presidents Hundred in Rifle or Pistol isn't to earn a badge. It is to learn how to perfect the basics and from that you can influence your Soldiers more efficiently and effectively in training.
I wonder exactly what the Army expects out of guys shooting carbines, issued ball, and poor optics (ACOGs). So far I haven't heard of a DM blasting someone at ranges past about 200 meters yet the courses seem to emphasize trying to make a worn out carbine and ball ammo function efficiently at 550 meters instead of what a DM will really do which is maneuver with his Squad and do his best to shoot folks he can identify as enemy.
My intent for the DM courses I run is to prepare them to fill in Sniper slots and sorry guys but it happens -- a-lot. So I get spotting scopes and have the DM's work in two man teams -- using the same dialogue and techniques as with snipers. I run them through so many tests that it gets to the point where a test is training and not even a test anymore. It payed off for a couple of Brigades so I figure it is OK.
You have a unique opportunity to really become a fine rifleman or pistolero at Little Rock. They have the resources and the guys with the experience that will allow you to move to the 'next level'. 99.99% of us never had that opportunity and if you really enjoy marksmanship -- take advantage of what Little Rock can offer you.
Happy New Year!
Gene
frostfire
01-01-2009, 00:37
poor optics (ACOGs)
Gene Econ Sir, could you please elaborate on why you consider the ACOG as poor optic?
I've used it (not in 2 way range), and I thought it really amplifies the shooter capacity to perform just from the sheer difference of being able to "see."
Using ACOG on a ~7lbs, free-floated M4 platform, no sling, and M855 green tip, I was able to replicate my sitting rapid shots (95 to 99, I've never cleaned :() using 14lbs match service rifle, mk 262, and Turner sling. The one I used was 4x32 with chevron reticle.
Alles gute für 2009
I wouldn't say the ACOG is a poor optic. But rather for shooting things like CMP, NRA, High power ETC (half of those don't use optics anyway but yah get my drift) it isn't ideal. It's a combat optic. Same reason you wouldn't want to use an EOTECH to engage targets past 200 meters without a magnifer. Sure it'll work but there is better. ACOG isn't a match shooting optic.
Gene Econ
01-01-2009, 07:28
I wouldn't say the ACOG is a poor optic. But rather for shooting things like CMP, NRA, High power ETC (half of those don't use optics anyway but yah get my drift) it isn't ideal. It's a combat optic. Same reason you wouldn't want to use an EOTECH to engage targets past 200 meters without a magnifer. Sure it'll work but there is better. ACOG isn't a match shooting optic.
Kawika:
I am not talking about competitive shooting sports. I am talking the issued ACOG in terms of SDM's and for the military. I have found them to be mechanically unreliable and prone to fogging up in cold rain. I am not comparing them to Night Force or S&B either. However they aren't cheap so they should be expected to function and not fog up.
Given the effective range of a very good marksman using an issued carbine firing issued ball is about 500 yards on a upper torso size target, the use of ranging stadia is of no value aside than offering the shooter multiple opportunities to use the wrong line. And they do -- constantly. And it isn't due to training. It is due to human nature which the reticle design of the ACOG seems to ignore.
There are other options that may not be as durable in terms of getting beaten up but at least can be depended on to work in adverse weather conditions and are easier for the shooter to see.
Gene
RichL025
01-01-2009, 13:08
There are other options that may not be as durable in terms of getting beaten up but at least can be depended on to work in adverse weather conditions and are easier for the shooter to see.
Gene
What are your opinions?
RL
Gene Econ
01-01-2009, 19:52
What are your opinions? RL
Rich:
I would try the Leupold MR/T M2 or the Nightforce 1 - 4X 24 NXS with the NP-1 reticle pattern. I believe both of the above are more dependable than the issued ACOG but not as durable in terms of pure abuse.
I opt for any optic that has external elevation and windage knobs. Aside from the fogging issue with the ACOGs, it saves a huge amount of time in zeroing to simply turn a knob. Too many times Joe has lost the little aluminum cap for an ACOG and or its gasket and or has cross threaded it due to the very fine threads. And too many times the 'up' / 'right' arrows on the ACOGs have just disappeared from multiple guys adjusting elevation or windage. When the ACOG loses its tactile clicks, it becomes problematic when adjusting elevation or windage. Downside for the Leupold or Nightforce is that Joe can strip the threads on the screws holding the knobs when slipping them. Or lose the screws.
Joe will be much more tempted to adjust zero given ease of doing so -- despite the potential drawbacks of 'chasing spotters' so to speak. I have seen too many good Riflemen get tired of incessantly having to screw with ACOGs and try to depend on holds because they didn't want to mess with the elevation or windage adjustments anymore. This is due to the little caps and the inability of ACOGs to track. This doesn't hold up when that good rifleman gets put under stress where he must hold and then hold more or less because his zero is off. He would rather have had a good zero than try to hold and hold again. They won't say this to anyone in an AAR so don't expect to see this fact appear anywhere.
You can adjust elevation and windage from position with the dials. You can't with an ACOG. Does it matter? After a few years of DM work among other marksmanship things, it does matter. Having to break position to adjust zero breaks mental focus and takes too much time.
I go with a BDC for DM's and the use of one elevation and holds. I love MOA adjustments myself but reality states otherwise so I go with what Joe will use instead of what he may not have confidence to use. I would rather Joe actually put '300' on his carbine or rifle than have him not be sure in terms of MOA adjustments. He will be more confident with the former than the latter and confidence equates to higher hit probabilities. If he is in an area where he will be shooting at 100 or less -- he can crank the thing down to 100. If he is working an area where he needs 300, he can put on 3 and hold over for 5 or under if he cares. If he thinks he needs 500, he can put on 5 and blast away. That is the end of it for a carbine with issued ball ammo in terms of distances and hit probabilities simply due to mean radius of dispersion.
Not sure if the Nightforce optic has a BDC or not but it should if they expect to sell any to the Army. Blasphemy for my competitive side but reality for Joe.
I like the reticle pattern of the Nightforce NP-1 more than that of the Leupold. Why Leupold put tick marks at ten mil intervals is beyond me. They should have put one tick five minutes left, right, high, and low, and left it at that. The NP-1 has 4 minutes low, left, and right of center to the duplex. Good enough for hasty estimation of range and holds. Not what I want but what they offer. Left to right, 4 into 20" is 5 hundred. That is it for the issued carbine and issued ball ammo so why more lines? Also, I have yet to meet a DM or sniper who used either the mil dot reticle or the stadia lines on an ACOG to estimate range unless they were under absolutely no stress what so ever. In other words, every single one of them put a elevation on their rifle before the mission and used a hold if they thought they needed one. Not one I interviewed following their deployment ever adjusted an elevation knob or windage knob while in contact. Not one. Period.
Sorry for those who think that more lines, dots, or tick marks are cool. More lines, dots, or tick marks means you have to break your focus to figure out what line, dot, or tick mark to use.
Not sure what folks think an SDM can do with what he has or the training he gets. They are very good Riflemen with the advantage of a optic that has magnification so they can see better. They will be far more effective when they have fewer visual stimulus (lines, tick marks, dots), and when they can trust their equipment will maintain a zero. IMHO the ACOG offers nothing but problems to everything I just said so I go with something else.
Fifty dollars please per person who reads this. I accept Pay Pal.
Gene
I dunno man, I just never thought that every soldier in the infantry needs that much accuracy anyways. I've done CMP type shoots and whatnot, but as far as on the battlefield goes with the M-4 more often than not what you need is something that doesn't break. When somebodys actualy shooting at you(the range which you will actually engage someone with m-4, 200 meters), you definately don't have time to be adjusting any windage knobs or anything like that.
Unless of course you a squad designated marksman or the dude carrying the m-25, barret, 300 winmag, etc. Then I see the point. But than again I have weird views anyways. I think every other person should have a gustav and every other person have a mk46;)
RichL025
01-01-2009, 21:59
I go with a BDC for DM's and the use of one elevation and holds...
Fifty dollars please per person who reads this. I accept Pay Pal.
Gene
Gene,
What does "BDC" mean? And I hope you were expecting those fifty bucks in Pineland dollars....
The Reaper
01-01-2009, 22:19
Gene,
What does "BDC" mean? And I hope you were expecting those fifty bucks in Pineland dollars....
Bullet Drop Compensator
TR
RichL025
01-01-2009, 22:25
Bullet Drop Compensator
TR
Ahh, thanks. The smart guys on my last team told me those were voodoo, anyway, and to ignore it. Geez, I can't remember what scopes we had, they were Leupold somethings....
Gene Econ
01-02-2009, 07:39
Ahh, thanks. The smart guys on my last team told me those were voodoo, anyway, and to ignore it. Geez, I can't remember what scopes we had, they were Leupold somethings....
Rich:
The guys put one elevation on the rifle for general needs and normally use holds. Nothing wrong with BDC's for military purposes. Not as precise as 1/4 MOA increments but extremely fast and pecise enough for combat accuracy.
Don't confuse getting zeros on a firing range where things are safe and sound and using the zero in the field. Guys will adjust elevation and even windage if they have a-lot of time on their hands. Given they trust their training and equipment which a number don't.
Gene
I work with Regulars and they send guys to Benning for the sniper competition but not Little Rock. I am not sure you guys would accept them as the Wilson matches are for Guard only (?). It wouldn't matter as Regular outfits really aren't interested. A different culture.
The Sniper "training exercise" (competition) the NGMTC runs is called the ISSTE or Inter Service Sniper Training Exercise, and regulars do participate. This year a team from 5th Group won, I believe.
When we say "Wilson Matches" down here, that also includes Armed Forces Skill at Arms" or AFSAM which is open to all active and reserve from US and Allied Forces. Here is a link to 2008 AFSAM participants: http://www.arguard.org/mtu/Documents/2008_WPW-AFSAM_Results/2008-AFSAM-Results/AFSAM_INDIVIDUAL_ROSTER_Report.rtf
You will notice the list includes teams from active component units (USMC and Allied Nations).
By "Regular Outfits" do you mean active duty line units or just active duty in general? It seems to me that just the Active Duty Army that won't compete (AMU?) I suspect they fear having some difficulty.
So far I haven't been impressed with the DM courses run by the AMU but don't know what the Guard does. I don't think the AMU courses prepare guys for combat and I know they don't give them much in terms of perfecting marksmanship skills.
Our course is 15 days, I would be happy to send you any of our course materials, ppt., training schedules, etc., if you will reciprocate? We have a class size in the 15 to 20 something students and typically about the same number of instructors and assistant instructors. Students get a great deal of one on one coaching. We also pair up the students; each pair has a spotting scope with tripod and data books. We really hammer them on the data books, hard. Each shot, and the conditions for each shot must be recorded, sight pictures drawn, etc.,
Our first week is all iron sights. First off is a "show us what you can do zero” and 300 and in KD qualification. Most scores are no where near the required expert score… go figure. Afterwards we have a “get your head screwed on straight” fundamentals class – which attempts to undo what they think they know. That is followed with a how to zero properly class, a zero 101 on the why’s, how’s and what for’s of zeroing. Then we pair them up & issue spotting scopes and ACOG's.
Next day is 25M zero, 300 and in Qual …with very different results. The rest of the week includes KD zero KD Practical Exercises, KD Qual, and many classes. Course mid point is a full day of range E classes and Practical Exercises, then UKD qual iron sights out to 600, then back to KD for ACOG zero, ACOG PE’s and ACOG KD qual, then back to UKD for Practical Exercises, then Range E test and UKD qual out to 600.
That's basically it. There is a great deal of coaching going on and I didn't mention all of the classroom time, which seems more important to the students as the training progresses, they have more questions. We don’t leave the range or classroom for chow, they bring it with them and eat when they can; typically in the pits during lulls moving from one firing line to the next. They get a great deal of trigger time which is closely watched, typically there is an instructor with a spotting scope/tripod watching trace and an A/I watching the body, the muzzle, etc.,
Ask the guys there at Little Rock why they will not allow a sniper team to compete in the Sniper matches unless they are B-4 qualified.
I will ask when we go back to work on Monday, but I would suspect they will say because they want to get more people to attend our Sniper school which awards the B-4 identifier. Sniper cadre puts on ISSTE, I can give you a POC via PM if you wish.
The guys who shoot High Power and are top of the line have trained their finger to move when their eyes have seen the degree of perfection they know is needed for success. And they move the trigger without moving the barrel.
Concur. As you know that comes with practice, practice which most Soldiers will seldom get.
I wonder exactly what the Army expects out of guys shooting carbines, issued ball, and poor optics (ACOGs).
I am sure you have seen various forms of the “special purpose rifle” or DM rifle, etc., but those are weapons that 90% of line squads are never going to have. A unit could build something that is a little better than an M4. If they used the M16 full auto trigger, an M16A4 upper, an ACOG with appropriate reticle, and maybe if they were lucky they could get Battalion to splurge on some free floating handguards. Issue the Mk 262 round to the DM’s; they could do well with such a set up. This requires no fancy pants arms room work, just a competent armorer and willing S4 and CO.
So far I haven't heard of a DM blasting someone at ranges past about 200 meters yet the courses seem to emphasize trying to make a worn out carbine and ball ammo function efficiently at 550 meters instead of what a DM will really do which is maneuver with his Squad and do his best to shoot folks he can identify as enemy.
I don’t know of any real life DM stories either. We use the M16A4 for the course, the students routinely hit targets with at 550 to 600 with ball ammo, it is not extraordinarily difficult for any of them. Some students are better than others, some will get < 5 of 10 at 600, some more, I think the average is about 6 of 10 at 600m. Next course (an MTT) we will be teaching using the M14 at the request of the unit. How the DM is used depends on whether or not the leadership is familiar with the role and ability of the DM.
My intent for the DM courses I run is to prepare them to fill in Sniper slots and sorry guys but it happens -- a-lot.
While that is not our intent it certainly happens a lot. Units are beginning to send new potential snipers to our class first and then to sniper school, sometimes back to back. We had a kid last class from the GA Guard, this 19 year old kid was a natural, one day towards then end of course during a lull in Practical Exercises, the kid was in the prone at the UKD range, there is a steel silhouette set up at 700M, and this kid was just pegging it, shot after shot, this was under less than ideal conditions, wind, overcast, light rain, sparse fog, M16A4, 855 green tip, unsupported. Anyhow he is going onto sniper school next course. I think our course will definitely improve a Soldiers chance of success at sniper school. It certainly cannot hurt.
You have a unique opportunity to really become a fine rifleman or pistolero at Little Rock. They have the resources and the guys with the experience that will allow you to move to the 'next level'. 99.99% of us never had that opportunity and if you really enjoy marksmanship -- take advantage of what Little Rock can offer you.
I recognize that, believe me I do. SFC W. has been taking time with me and mentoring me some. I hope to do as well as he has, he has forgotten more about shooting than most will ever know, and has the X wives to prove it. It is a great group of guys and they really know what they are talking about, unfortunately they don’t get asked their opinion when it comes to writing marksmanship and SDM doctrine, as you know things would be different. Of the top marksmen teaching down here, most are not Combat Arms guys, but supply, band, etc., and they can really shoot circles around people. We also have a high power shooter that recently ETS’d from AMU, he told me that our SDM course is much better than what AMU offers, but he is another one that I spend time with, picking his brain and having him watch and coach me.
Feel free to drop in, you will be well received.
There seems to be AMU hate going on on this board? With regards to highpower and bullseye pistol I thought they were extremely good in competitions? While they do train soldiers, there primary focus isn't that. There definately not going to be teahing anybody to shoot on the move in any event.
From what i've seen on deployment, the RA guys always have DM's. The rifles are usually OEF/OIF equipment. Now back in the rear I definately see your point, can't train on a weapon system you dont have.
Team Sergeant
01-02-2009, 22:46
There seems to be AMU hate going on on this board? With regards to highpower and bullseye pistol I thought they were extremely good in competitions? While they do train soldiers, there primary focus isn't that. There definately not going to be teahing anybody to shoot on the move in any event.
From what i've seen on deployment, the RA guys always have DM's. The rifles are usually OEF/OIF equipment. Now back in the rear I definately see your point, can't train on a weapon system you dont have.
Have you worked with AMTU? (I have.) You speak with some sort of AMTU knowledge/experience?
Team Sergeant
There seems to be AMU hate going on on this board?
There definately not going to be teahing anybody to shoot on the move in any event.
Nobody is "hating" AMU, facts are facts. AMU produces some of the best shooters in the world in the competitions they are interested in.
See "SSG Max Michael - Shooting on the move." http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/shooting.html?feedPID=vdVm7vpu7Wwhw_r0Lu85cQQt0fFc jTQ_
AMU does have a Short Range Marksmanship course, I suspect they might cover shooting on the move, good luck getting a class date.
frostfire
01-02-2009, 23:10
Our course is 15 days, I would be happy to send you any of our course materials, ppt., training schedules, etc., if you will reciprocate? We have a class size in the 15 to 20 something students and typically about the same number of instructors and assistant instructors. Students get a great deal of one on one coaching. We also pair up the students; each pair has a spotting scope with tripod and data books. We really hammer them on the data books, hard. Each shot, and the conditions for each shot must be recorded, sight pictures drawn, etc.,
Our first week is all iron sights. First off is a "show us what you can do zero” and 300 and in KD qualification. Most scores are no where near the required expert score… go figure. Afterwards we have a “get your head screwed on straight” fundamentals class – which attempts to undo what they think they know. That is followed with a how to zero properly class, a zero 101 on the why’s, how’s and what for’s of zeroing. Then we pair them up & issue spotting scopes and ACOG's.
Next day is 25M zero, 300 and in Qual …with very different results. The rest of the week includes KD zero KD Practical Exercises, KD Qual, and many classes. Course mid point is a full day of range E classes and Practical Exercises, then UKD qual iron sights out to 600, then back to KD for ACOG zero, ACOG PE’s and ACOG KD qual, then back to UKD for Practical Exercises, then Range E test and UKD qual out to 600.
That's basically it. There is a great deal of coaching going on and I didn't mention all of the classroom time, which seems more important to the students as the training progresses, they have more questions. We don’t leave the range or classroom for chow, they bring it with them and eat when they can; typically in the pits during lulls moving from one firing line to the next. They get a great deal of trigger time which is closely watched, typically there is an instructor with a spotting scope/tripod watching trace and an A/I watching the body, the muzzle, etc.,
I wanted to use PM, but I figure others may benefit from this inquiry as well.
JGarcia, a buddy of mine is a GA national guard, what is the procedure/form for him to fill to request training there? If necessary, I'll PM you his name, rank, contact info etc.
As he's about to see the elephant sometime this year, I've been attempting to transfer everything I've ever known/studied/trained wrapped in a lot of stress-induced exercise (heavy pt in full kit, sprint-crawl, then engage multiple targets, repeat, etc.). I can see that he would fully benefit from attending your course (and hopefully make me proud by being the top student).
added: apologize to the original poster for full-blown hijack
For your buddy I think it might be too late, he may not have enough time, but he can try.
A Soldier in the National Guard needs to go through his chain of command which would notify the training or readiness NCO at his or her (yes, female Soldiers can attend) unit, that person will know how to look up the school on ATRRS and get the ball rolling. Our school code is 1029. These are the class dates https://atrrs.army.mil/atrrscc/courseInfo.aspx?fy=2009&sch=1029&crs=MTC-005&crstitle=SQUAD+DESIGNATED+MARKSMAN&phase=
I don’t know what the procedure is for the active duty side.
frostfire
01-02-2009, 23:35
Thank you for the info JGarcia. I'll pass it down to him.
See "SSG Max Michael - Shooting on the move." http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/shooting.html?feedPID=vdVm7vpu7Wwhw_r0Lu85cQQt0fFc jTQ_
Since "shooting on the move" is mentioned, IIRC, in one of his newsletters Paul Howe mentioned he never "shot on the move" downrange because one has to slow down enough. This combined with moving closer towards the enemy only increases his/her accuracy. I may be impressionable and I do train shooting on the move, but his argument is plain common sense to me.
Counter argument? :munchin
Mods, if this is borderline tactics, please delete.
Have you worked with AMTU? (I have.) You speak with some sort of AMTU knowledge/experience?
Team Sergeant
Nope haven't, thats why I said I thought they were some of the best HP, bullseye shooters out there. I misread his post about AMU not wanting to compete.
Team Sergeant
01-03-2009, 09:49
Mods, if this is borderline tactics, please delete.
Our shooting schools are classified and so far I've seen no mention of our abilities or tactics on this board.
I teach individuals to shoot all the time, what I don't teach everyone is how to kill. Sort of like shooting for fun and shooting because you life might depend on it. Two different schools of thought and two different methods of teaching.
Shooting competitions should be fun and your life doesn't depend on winning or losing, in our world it does.
On this thread all sorts of equipment (tools) are mentioned and if you read between the lines some good advice is being given by those that have faced the elephant. All other advice is game shooting, the two methods are IMO mutually exclusive. And while you just might gain some benefits from fun shooting, using fun shooting's TTP's will get you killed in real life. We've gone over this before. While a soldier can compete in a competition or IPSC, IPSC/competition shooters don't go to war.
my .02
TS
Since "shooting on the move" is mentioned, IIRC, in one of his newsletters Paul Howe mentioned he never "shot on the move" downrange because one has to slow down enough. This combined with moving closer towards the enemy only increases his/her accuracy. I may be impressionable and I do train shooting on the move, but his argument is plain common sense to me.
Counter argument? :munchin
You have to take that quote in context. Yes, Paul teaches that you cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight. At ranges over 50 yards, he teaches the kneeling and prone unsupported positions with very tight time requirements (i.e. at 100 yds., 5 rounds prone from a standing start in approx. 12 seconds, no misses). At ranges between 50 and 25 yards, he teaches the standing position and the reality is that the target appears big enough that you should be able to pause for a half second and break your shot if trained properly. Remember, most students are finishing his courses with single shot splits from the low ready of one second or less (lots of guys are shooting .7 or .8 seconds).
Shooting inside the 25 is a different beast, and I don't think you'd hear him telling you to stop what you're doing just to take the shot. Most Mil/LE shooters whom I have seen receiving shooting on the move training are able to maintain 100% hits while maintaining a "brisk walk" with only a day's training.
None of this has much to do with DM training, though, so hijack over. :)
Juliet Delta
01-03-2009, 20:28
You have to take that quote in context. Yes, Paul teaches that you cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight. At ranges over 50 yards, he teaches the kneeling and prone unsupported positions with very tight time requirements (i.e. at 100 yds., 5 rounds prone from a standing start in approx. 12 seconds, no misses). At ranges between 50 and 25 yards, he teaches the standing position and the reality is that the target appears big enough that you should be able to pause for a half second and break your shot if trained properly. Remember, most students are finishing his courses with single shot splits from the low ready of one second or less (lots of guys are shooting .7 or .8 seconds).
Shooting inside the 25 is a different beast, and I don't think you'd hear him telling you to stop what you're doing just to take the shot. Most Mil/LE shooters whom I have seen receiving shooting on the move training are able to maintain 100% hits while maintaining a "brisk walk" with only a day's training.
None of this has much to do with DM training, though, so hijack over. :)
This is a topic I'm also following closely.
AFAIK, Holschen at InSights has echoed much of what Howe said in his newsletter. Words to the effect of "when it's time to move, it's time to MOVE!". Much more along the lines of Howe's "sprint to cover, then shoot from there." From how I read those comments, it says to me the whole heel-toe "groucho walk" is more of a range technique than a fighting technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2zYvMpTeqI
They appear to be of the opinion that moving slowly enough to make half-way decent shots isn't moving fast enough to not get shot, yourself.
Then again, I keep reading about how other gentlemen who served in a similar capacity want to get MORE training on shooting on the move.
This is a topic I'm also following closely.
AFAIK, Holschen at InSights has echoed much of what Howe said in his newsletter. Words to the effect of "when it's time to move, it's time to MOVE!". Much more along the lines of Howe's "sprint to cover, then shoot from there." From how I read those comments, it says to me the whole heel-toe "groucho walk" is more of a range technique than a fighting technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2zYvMpTeqI
They appear to be of the opinion that moving slowly enough to make half-way decent shots isn't moving fast enough to not get shot, yourself.
Then again, I keep reading about how other gentlemen who served in a similar capacity want to get MORE training on shooting on the move.
I'm not going to get into a hypothetical discussion of tactics here. It's out of scope and not my area of expertise. What I can tell you from personal experience is that good instruction can greatly improve your ability to get good hits while moving (i.e., a brisk walk). However, it is a skill that deteriorates even faster than other shooting skills, so unless you're going to be doing it a lot in training or on your own time, you're probably better off running to cover.
I have a hard enough time maintaining Paul's standards throughout the year, so on the rare occasions when I do shoot a box drill or something, it's usually just as a reward to myself for doing everything else well that day.
Don't know if the link will work, comments....:munchin
http://demigodllc.com/video_serve.php?id=iM6CvLHYxtk
Just a game for sure, but looking forward to the comments anyway...
J.G.
Ask the guys there at Little Rock why they will not allow a sniper team to compete in the Sniper matches unless they are B-4 qualified.
Gene,
I did ask a Senior NCO Sniper Instructor why they will not let teams compete in the ISSTE ("ICE T") unless they are B4 ASI holders.
He told me that the reason is that they want everyone to have the same basic skill level. A few years ago they had some USAF guys that were not B4 holders, and when it came time to shoot the .50 they had to have some remedial training, and then the shots they made accounted for almost no points. It is a training distraction as far as they are concerned.
I did get the winners wrong for the ISSTE, this year the winning team came from 3/75, second place was Wisconsin National Guard, and third place was the team from 5th Group.
Team Sergeant
01-07-2009, 13:02
I did get the winners wrong for the ISSTE, this year the winning team came from 3/75, second place was Wisconsin National Guard, and third place was the team from 5th Group.
Having spent three years in the airborne infantry and seventeen in SF I've only ever seen one (SF) guy attend an Army, or AMTU shooting competition. Not a big priority I guess.;)
TS:
Very true.
The command would like to get away from the "competition" mindset with our annual functions. They want these things to feature some competitive atmosphere but the focus is on what you get out of the experience. Hence, "Inter Service Sniper 'Training Exercise.'"
I also found out for sure that the "Wilson Match" is only for Reserve Component Soldiers; and that the Armed Forces Skill at Arms or AFSAM is open to all military on orders. Any unit can field a team. AFSAM runs concurrently with Wilson Match in October.
Gene Econ
01-08-2009, 20:08
TS:
Very true.
The command would like to get away from the "competition" mindset with our annual functions. They want these things to feature some competitive atmosphere but the focus is on what you get out of the experience. Hence, "Inter Service Sniper 'Training Exercise.'"
I also found out for sure that the "Wilson Match" is only for Reserve Component Soldiers; and that the Armed Forces Skill at Arms or AFSAM is open to all military on orders. Any unit can field a team. AFSAM runs concurrently with Wilson Match in October.
JG:
First to TS -- many more guys are competing now than our era. Nguyen was an exceptional Three Gun shooter who got killed in Iraq a few years ago with 3rd SFG. The owner of Viking Tactical is a national level shooter who has significant combat experience and was in 3 / 1 SFG. Chapman who was probably the first American to get killed in Afghanistan was a budding IPSC and or 3 Gun shooter. So there are more now than our era.
For JG -- take my word for it -- an Infantry Battalion or Brigade in the Regular Army has absolutely no clue what the Wilson Match is -- doesn't correlate it to anything of importance if it even knew -- and doesn't have the time to find out.
A match is either competitive or it isn't. Only a bureaucrat or Communist (Liberal) can come up with a match where eveyone wins. The fact is that the All Guard shooters dominated all the tactical matches run by the Guard - while wearing all the crap that guys wear these days.
So, wearing all the body armor, 'hemmets', magazines, and inert grenades -- with all the running and jumping etc., does not correlate with sound and accurate decisions and shots while under "stress".
Fascinating but not unexpected from my perspective at all. The best marksmen aren't distracted by gear, physical exertion, or the Army's definition of stress.
Gene
Gene,
I've looked into IDPA, IPSC and three gun, but haven't really been bitten by the bug. Of all the various Army matches discussed both in this thread and previously, which would you recommend as worthwhile for a guy to go out of pocket to travel to on his own?
I do my dry fire drills and take a couple of classes each year, but wouldn't describe myself as very accomplished, just enthusiastic.
Thank you.
Gene Econ
01-09-2009, 19:46
Gene,
I've looked into IDPA, IPSC and three gun, but haven't really been bitten by the bug. Of all the various Army matches discussed both in this thread and previously, which would you recommend as worthwhile for a guy to go out of pocket to travel to on his own?
I do my dry fire drills and take a couple of classes each year, but wouldn't describe myself as very accomplished, just enthusiastic.
Thank you.
JATX:
If you are in the service -- Regular, Guard, Reserve -- talk with Garcia about the Wilson Matches. They have a wide variety of venues and the Guard can run a match very efficiently and without bias.
If you are a civilian -- contact me via private e-mail and maybe we can find something you may enjoy.
One thing for sure is this -- there is only so much blasting a guy can do at a garbage dump, local range, or rock quarry before he wants something more formal to assess his personal performance. Guys who want to know how good they are are at a level higher than guys who go out and blast away at things with no purpose or goals.
Gene
RichL025
01-10-2009, 14:08
Gene,
I'm not too far away from you. What do you do for competition shooting? I'm planning to come out to one of my local IDPA matches here, but the whole "race gun" thing never really appealed to me.
Shooting competitions should be fun and your life doesn't depend on winning or losing, in our world it does.
I think for many people, such as myself, that explains they way it should be.
For those who are on the sharp end of the spear, I would think and hope, they have the adequate training they need to do their job.
There fore, it is for S & G that the rest of us compete.
We at home are enabled to enjoy life and should do so, because we have very fine people keep harm away from us.
Best to all.
H.
(who is not a very good shooter)
Gene Econ
01-11-2009, 07:22
Gene, I'm not too far away from you. What do you do for competition shooting? I'm planning to come out to one of my local IDPA matches here, but the whole "race gun" thing never really appealed to me.
Rich:
I bet your IDPA match is at TRR. Have been a member there for 15 years.
I shoot High Power. I may get into the action shooting stuff sometime but for now High Power is what I like doing.
I hear TS about the tactics side of competitive shooting. There isn't any. That said, anyone who is engrossed with a shooting sport will be getting better training than anything at the unit level. Why? Self motivation, consistency in terms of practice, and the stress of competitive events.
Gene
frostfire
01-11-2009, 11:10
Understood, TS
They appear to be of the opinion that moving slowly enough to make half-way decent shots isn't moving fast enough to not get shot, yourself.
Then again, I keep reading about how other gentlemen who served in a similar capacity want to get MORE training on shooting on the move.
You sum it up better than I could.
I hear TS about the tactics side of competitive shooting. There isn't any. That said, anyone who is engrossed with a shooting sport will be getting better training than anything at the unit level. Why? Self motivation, consistency in terms of practice, and the stress of competitive events.
The horse is probably already beaten to death. FWIW and at the risk of coming across as captain obvious, I'd like to share a perspective I told myself and those I had the privilege coaching: The inventor of the cartridge and the rifle had a different thing in mind than one who invented the bat and the ball . Fundamentally different purpose. By keeping this in mind, we're able to draw the line and never stray too far towards the "sports" mindset, while still remaining competitive and giving our best. This is why I pursued high power (service rifle) and not international rifle. A 5k+ rifle meant to be used at 10m range, indoor, all quiet, with 1k+ jackets, pants, shoes etc. are way too far from the original intention. Not demeaning the shooters. The worldclass level of perfection is insane, and I don't think I can do what they do. I'm merely making a humble observation of the nature of the game.
Responding to the original poster, draw that line for yourself considering the purpose, wallet size, time, and level of commitment. Then choose whichever discipline that suits those criteria the most. It's always neat to know/imitate what the QP does, but it's a standard for a different world. I dream of/vizualize/prepare for life serving as a QP, so that makes me a wannabe and at the end of the day, I must admit time & money are better spent on PT than shooting :D
JATX:
If you are in the service -- Regular, Guard, Reserve -- talk with Garcia about the Wilson Matches. They have a wide variety of venues and the Guard can run a match very efficiently and without bias.
Gene,
Thanks for your perspective. I will definitely look into the Wilson matches.
RichL025
01-11-2009, 23:14
Rich:
I bet your IDPA match is at TRR. Have been a member there for 15 years.
No, bad guess, but I set you up for failure. Today was actually a USPSA match at Paul Bunyan in Puyallup. My first one - had a blast and I didn't finish last :) IDPA is next weekend (which will be my first IDPA match, also)
I shoot High Power. I may get into the action shooting stuff sometime but for now High Power is what I like doing...
Yeah, well, as a FAG (Former Action Guy), I'm just doing it out of nostalgia for many, many days spent at the range, and remembering how fun it was... Although last Friday, when I was leaving my nice warm, dry hospital and listening to the qual ranges in the background, the nostalgia was a little less than normal due to the pouring rain.... OK some things I no longer miss..... Or, in the words of my old Tm Sgt... "Hey, it's cold out, but at least it's a wet cold"
So what do you shoot in Hi-power matches? I have an old garand from the CMP that I love shooting (but of course, nowhere near match quality), I was toying with the idea of trying long gun competition one of these days...
Archangel
01-22-2009, 16:01
You should look for a three-gun match with an "Ironman" class. They typically involve full kit, humping all of your ammo and weapons from one stage to the next, and lots of variety.
ETA: I've never done one, primarily because I have zero interest in shotguns.
Dog-Gone Snob!!! :p
I went to my third 3-Gun match and ranked 8th out of 37. I wasn't the fastest, but I was the only one that shot a clean match. Not bad for a rookie. :o
Are you still with the same crew JATX?
Are you still with the same crew JATX?
Yes, the same merry band of misfits. Give me a call sometime.
Here is a good article that was sent to me about the basics of long range shooting matches. Any feedback that anyone has on this article such as anything to add, edit, or omit, please do. Match_Basics (http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/tactical-rifle-competition-1.php)
crazyjake123
04-13-2009, 06:00
Here is the link to the local IPSC competition shooting around Fayetteville with results and links for the ranges.
http://www.ncsection.org/
I didn't see it up anywhere else so I thought it could help. Enjoy.
I shot the Rowan county one last Saturday and enjoyed it. There was less people than the matches at Sir Walter (North of Raleigh) but the stages weren't quite as big.
longrange1947
04-19-2009, 19:21
We have had a few comps on weekends at the MTC. It is three gun stuff, we run the next one and I will find out info for guys interested.