View Full Version : SEAL O's in SAGE?
Marvin Blank
12-23-2008, 09:39
A buddy of mine who is finishing up the SEAL Q (post Buds, pre SUT) just informed me that his officers (SEAL officers typically finish a class behind the guys they went to BUDS with, due to a slightly longer training pipeline) are going to SAGE? He seemed prtty sure about it.....any of you guys dialed into SWC know anything about it? If it is true, will it be a shortened version, a la the foreign officers currently doing it? Or will it be a complete Robin Sage, from start to finish? Thanks.
I can only speak for when I went but we had SEAL O's observing when we attending meetings with the local leaders, during sage. They just stayed in the back round in civis.
I am currently in Delta company, starting SUT in 9 Feb. Myself along with aout 30 others were assigned to Sage detail as "Gs" and OPFOR. In my group, the two SEAL Os were attached with us (They were Gs along with us). Navy Spec Warfare Center is dabbling in different things with their Os to push their ground training along... In my opinion, being Gs wasnt the place for that but they did get a chance to see how things go. They were good dudes and played the game but more than likely they wont be coming back.... at least in the role as a G. They were integrated into some mission planning roles and also led several raids with the assistance of SWC students/ AKA Americans. Their Lt Commander hung out nearby in a SAFE House and checked in periodically to observe and gain some insight as well. These two individuals were strictly an experimentation. HTH. PP
Oh yeah... NSWC is also contemplating sending some enlisted dudes in their pipeline to SUT/CST.
Basenshukai
01-24-2009, 03:12
Just got word that SEAL O's are going to attend the SUT phase; don't know when they will begin. But, I would imagine that the Ranger Course is the best venue for what they are trying to accomplish (more time available to learn the ground warfare skills that they need).
They did say that they realize they are light years behind SF in that realm and NSWC is trying to remedy this. Makes sense.
Basenshukai
03-06-2009, 08:53
Several Seal O's finished their stint at SUT and did not do well. Well, one did pretty good. The rest did not care about the training, did not listen to instructions from the cadre and essentially acted as if this training didn't really matter to them. It's a shame. I expected better from them. In fact, I expected to see the normal range of performance that you see in any group of trainees - some do well and some don't do as well. But, sadly, as a group, they really sucked. And, I guarantee that it was not because they are incapable. I'm sure that if they had really cared about the training here, they would have done great. But, they simply showed that they didn't care. I've seen international students do better. It really made me shake my head when I got the instructors' feed back yesterday.
Several Seal O's finished their stint at SUT and did not do well. Well, one did pretty good. The rest did not care about the training, did not listen to instructions from the cadre and essentially acted as if this training didn't really matter to them. It's a shame. I expected better from them. In fact, I expected to see the normal range of performance that you see in any group of trainees - some do well and some don't do as well. But, sadly, as a group, they really sucked. And, I guarantee that it was not because they are incapable. I'm sure that if they had really cared about the training here, they would have done great. But, they simply showed that they didn't care. I've seen international students do better. It really made me shake my head when I got the instructors' feed back yesterday.
Sounds like great feedback for their CoC.
If this is an indicator the training is not of any use to then then why waste everybody's time going forward.
Basenshukai
03-06-2009, 10:48
Sounds like great feedback for their CoC.
If this is an indicator the training is not of any use to then then why waste everybody's time going forward.
You are right. But, you know, I at least expected them to display some pride in their branch of service, or their chosen profession and act like the best students out here. Honestly, their attitude was more like "this is a waste of my time ... we are better than this". Then again, they had issues carrying a heavy rucksack and operating without sleep for too long (which I found odd, considering the training they do back at their school house). Look, I felt that they all had the ability to do really great. They simply didn't care and did not show any regard for this course. Some displayed a certain air of superiority. I am hard pressed to imagine any of our guys ever doing something like that in another service course. If they ever did, and it became known to us, you know what would happen.
You are right. But, you know, I at least expected them to display some pride in their branch of service, or their chosen profession and act like the best students out here.
Absolutely. I guess those particular tasks were too hard. I'm sure they display similar attitudes back where they came from.
I would not want to make a habit of having those types of individuals around our students, unless of coure, they could serve as an object lesson for the rest as to how NOT to be.
The Old Guy
03-19-2009, 09:33
Just got word that SEAL O's are going to attend the SUT phase; don't know when they will begin. But, I would imagine that the Ranger Course is the best venue for what they are trying to accomplish (more time available to learn the ground warfare skills that they need).
Ranger school is saved for mid-grade NCOs having problems (mostly discipline) on the teams. It is kind of a gut check thing for them, how bad do you wish to be here.
Several Seal O's finished their stint at SUT and did not do well. Well, one did pretty good. The rest did not care about the training, did not listen to instructions from the cadre and essentially acted as if this training didn't really matter to them. It's a shame. I expected better from them. In fact, I expected to see the normal range of performance that you see in any group of trainees - some do well and some don't do as well. But, sadly, as a group, they really sucked. And, I guarantee that it was not because they are incapable. I'm sure that if they had really cared about the training here, they would have done great. But, they simply showed that they didn't care. I've seen international students do better. It really made me shake my head when I got the instructors' feed back yesterday.
Not to berate them...much, but that sounds oh so typical of them. Every time I've had the "pleasure" of being around them, I was not overly impressed. To give them credit, I'm sure they're good at what they do, but IMHO, keep them off land.
Peregrino
03-19-2009, 12:59
My personal experience is "keep them in the water!" Higher cognitive functions are immediately compromised whenever their gills get dry. Fortunately, they are easily entertained with weight sets and copious quantities of suntan oil. Taken one or two at a time, most are decent enough guys. Unfortunately whenever they have critical mass (three or more) a negative feedback cycle ensues and somebody is going to have to get them out of country and placate the Country Team. Then some ODA has to go in afterwards and rebuild years worth of rapport. Some of the AARs do make bestselling fiction though. Yes, I’m bashing our “sister service”. It comes from years of SF MAROPS and having “the powers that be” deliberately confusing matters by doing direct comparison of apples and oranges. They ain’t us and I don’t want their mission. Nor do I want to clean up the mess they leave whenever they try to do our FID/UW mission. I agree with Basenshukai, send them to Ranger School. Allowing them to attend our courses just encourages further inappropriate comparisons.
i was in that SUT class and had a SEAL on my squad. he was open-minded and willing to learn, probably the best of the whole bunch. ironically they did not attend land nav week, which would have really benefited them. as ATL during squad evals, i asked my SEAL to be my backup pace count man. he declined based on the fact that they never did pace count in the woods, only having done it in the mountains!
and they also didn't like patrol bases much. my ensign always fell asleep on security :eek:
NousDefionsDoc
03-27-2009, 21:02
Sounds like to me they are prepping to set up their own UW training.
All I can say is if the Seal command wants thier seamen in the fight and conducting UW, then they need to act accordingly. Everyone wants a piece of the SF pie now because it is the best thing going in the two wars. The Seals going to Sage need to learn UW, as well as all of our own guys.
sitfly200
07-26-2009, 19:53
As of this class and the last class we haven't had any out here, But I have been told there are QP slots to teach UW in California, I am not sure as to the truth to this.
NiteTrain
07-29-2009, 23:41
Sounds like to me they are prepping to set up their own UW training.
Yep and MARSOC is attempting to get in on FID/UW as well. I was talking to some of the guys on chicken road and was told that some retired SF guys, whom have been contracted by MARSOC, called trying to get info on echo course dates and various other "Q" phase dates IOT help MARSOC in their attempt to become "SF like". How do you like those apples! :confused:
You are right. But, you know, I at least expected them to display some pride in their branch of service, or their chosen profession and act like the best students out here. Honestly, their attitude was more like "this is a waste of my time ... we are better than this". Then again, they had issues carrying a heavy rucksack and operating without sleep for too long (which I found odd, considering the training they do back at their school house). Look, I felt that they all had the ability to do really great. They simply didn't care and did not show any regard for this course. Some displayed a certain air of superiority. I am hard pressed to imagine any of our guys ever doing something like that in another service course. If they ever did, and it became known to us, you know what would happen.
From my experience I've noted a lack of maturity in both the O side and senior NCO corps of the NavSpecWarCom folks. Not all but more than would be healthy for the community.
A "Too cool to train unless it's our training" and an overinflated sense of self that comes from believing everything they write about themselves.
This attitude, IMHO, is a direct contributor to the amount of casualties they take from Panama thru today they overextend, do not execute to opord, and just get their ass in a crack.
They are brave, physically fit, individually skilled in mos but tact/tech deficient in collective skills i.e. SUT like events, planning executing unless very straightforward.
The Reaper
07-30-2009, 10:05
Yep and MARSOC is attempting to get in on FID/UW as well. I was talking to some of the guys on chicken road and was told that some retired SF guys, whom have been contracted by MARSOC, called trying to get info on echo course dates and various other "Q" phase dates IOT help MARSOC in their attempt to become "SF like". How do you like those apples! :confused:
Not sure why the class dates matter, SWCS was tasked to basically give MARSOC all of their POIs.
As I understand it, MARSOC structured their course with a lot less MOS phase time, giving commo guys a week or less of training on their gear. You can't get SF like that way.
TR
NiteTrain
07-30-2009, 11:12
Not sure why the class dates matter, SWCS was tasked to basically give MARSOC all of their POIs.
As I understand it, MARSOC structured their course with a lot less MOS phase time, giving commo guys a week or less of training on their gear. You can't get SF like that way.
TR
I was told that as well but I see a storm brewing. Sounds like some reverse engineering going on.:munchin
MARSOC0211
07-30-2009, 11:19
I am not at the school house (MSOS), and the current info I have is from a few Marines who just completed the first iteration of ITC and are slated for my team.
Yes, MARSOC has tried to mirror the SF pipeline from RSAS to ITC. We have utilized the POIs from SWC as the baseline to begin from. From that baseline, many modifications have occurred IOT make it more “Marine-like”. Instead of having dedicated MOSs, (18B, 18C, etc.), they are trying to incorporate all facets in much shorter durations. The HHQ believes this concept will make a MARSOF operator a jack of all trades, though they seem to forget they will be the masters of none.
Honestly, if it was not a requirement by SOCOM to have an actual selection and training pipeline, the USMC would not do it at all. The brass has levied down to us that first and foremost, we are Marines and that is what we bring to SOCOM :eek: and no Marine is “special”….:rolleyes:
As far as the conduct of FID / UW I don’t see us doing that for a long time….way too many are too focused on DA, DA, and more DA. I have seen guys get pissed when they get assigned to the SR team (and to think the 0321 MOS is a Reconnaissance Marine). :mad:
And for the record, No I do not agree with the way this is going nor do I agree with the thinking at the levels way beyond my pay grade...
Draco771
08-11-2009, 12:22
Several Seal O's finished their stint at SUT and did not do well. Well, one did pretty good. The rest did not care about the training, did not listen to instructions from the cadre and essentially acted as if this training didn't really matter to them. It's a shame. I expected better from them. In fact, I expected to see the normal range of performance that you see in any group of trainees - some do well and some don't do as well. But, sadly, as a group, they really sucked. And, I guarantee that it was not because they are incapable. I'm sure that if they had really cared about the training here, they would have done great. But, they simply showed that they didn't care. I've seen international students do better. It really made me shake my head when I got the instructors' feed back yesterday.
Please, I mean no disrespect, please do not take this the wrong way.
But SUT is Small Unit Tactics correct?
SEAL Teams work in teams of 2, to teams of 16...
And a SEAL Officer didn't care about the training? WTF?!?! You mean an Officer is going to be in COMMAND of a SMALL UNIT and doesn't care if he knows WTF he's doing? Do SEAL Officers mentally contemplate the small fact that his men might actually have to depend on him to have their backs? Did those SEAL Officers mentally contemplate the fact they may actually be in situations where things that are covered in SUT may actually come into play?
What ever happened to the "Never Quit" attitude? The whole "Push your limits and do the best you can every opportunity you can" Mentality they get in BUD/S?
I've only spoken with two SEALs one on one throughout my entire life, and those are what they always went into whenever I asked them about the SEAL Training Pipeline. Their Officers have equal, if not greater responsibility to their men in knowing their stuff as an ODA Commander/WO.
No offense, but WTF??? :eek::confused:
Going back to the shadows.
Basenshukai
08-12-2009, 11:31
Please, I mean no disrespect, please do not take this the wrong way.
But SUT is Small Unit Tactics correct?
SEAL Teams work in teams of 2, to teams of 16...
And a SEAL Officer didn't care about the training? WTF?!?! You mean an Officer is going to be in COMMAND of a SMALL UNIT and doesn't care if he knows WTF he's doing? Do SEAL Officers mentally contemplate the small fact that his men might actually have to depend on him to have their backs? Did those SEAL Officers mentally contemplate the fact they may actually be in situations where things that are covered in SUT may actually come into play?
What ever happened to the "Never Quit" attitude? The whole "Push your limits and do the best you can every opportunity you can" Mentality they get in BUD/S?
I've only spoken with two SEALs one on one throughout my entire life, and those are what they always went into whenever I asked them about the SEAL Training Pipeline. Their Officers have equal, if not greater responsibility to their men in knowing their stuff as an ODA Commander/WO.
No offense, but WTF??? :eek::confused:
Going back to the shadows.
But, I'll like to add that I have worked with SEALs in the past. SEALs are warriors. I think part of the issue is that these officers were entry level frogs just out of the Naval Academy, or other comissioning source and recently graduated from BUD/S. In a way, it's like expecting 2nd Lieutenants to have the aggregate maturity to perform at the level we expect from our SF Candidate Captains (already 5 or 6 years in service). I'm not excusing them, but, it factors into it. I still feel they could have done better, and should have. But, to encourage this, it would be useful to have a Navy O3 liaison permanently as an instructor in Camp Mackall.
Renegade
02-03-2012, 10:51
Just got word that SEAL O's are going to attend the SUT phase; don't know when they will begin. But, I would imagine that the Ranger Course is the best venue for what they are trying to accomplish (more time available to learn the ground warfare skills that they need).
Basenshukai
Sir I attended Ranger School with class 5-98 and we had a couple of Seal Os with us then. When asked why they were there one of them said their commander wanted all of his Os to attend Ranger prior to them receiving their Trident.
One of them got caught in the now infamous Wal-mart scandal and was dropped from the course. The other was in my squad and pretty squared away.
Respectfully
I've never heard of the Infamous Walmart Scandal....
What happened?
My Ranger School class had SEALS in it and all of them got recycled, but I digress....what's the scandal? RS always has funny stories.
Renegade
02-06-2012, 07:00
I'll tell you what I know. During Mountain Phase, I don't remember exact DTG, the RIs came into the barracks around 0130 to 0200. We immediately started a shake down.
The company commander came in and announced that 5 to 6 Ranger students had been seen at the local Wal Mart in Dahlonga. Evidently they had convinced a cab driver to pick them up and take them into town. One of them was the Seal I had mentioned earlier.
The rumor later was they walked into the Wal Mart with their black watch caps and BDUs. A couple of the employees thought they were being robbed and called 911.
They had us set up a GP Medium in the middle of the track and sleep in that for a fews days.
I was very happy when we left for Florida.