View Full Version : Possible change to the "Q"
For those interested, I tought I would put something out. Recently many of us awaiting SUT have been spoken to by some "higher-ups" about a possible experimentation with sending some of us to language before SUT. Just thought i would put this out there and see what kind of opinions the QP's may have on this possible change. Obviously the course is ALWAYS changing, hopefully for the better. IMHO I cant find a reason as to why they would do this, but in the same breath, there are people who get paid to think about these kinds of things, and I'm not one of them. Just some food for discussion here. Let's see what the QP's have to say.
What the "higher ups" need to realize is that the language program at SWCS sucks no matter where they place it in the pipeline. Crap in equals crap out. You want more guys to pass? You either lower the standard (which I disagree with) or you increase the quality & length of the program (which I do agree with).
x/S
Although i haven't been to the DLI yet, I fully agree with you. What's the number 1 rule of special forces soldiers? They cannot be massed produced. So lengthening the program shouldn't be a huge challenge. I'm obviously no expert on this yet, so QP's feel more than free to correct me or tell me to shut up, but it seems as though language skills are more important now than ever. So why the sudden urge to experiment? IMHO I would have thought they would have reevaluated long ago. But whatever they choose, I'm giving it 150%. Like I said, not here to question, just to learn. Simply throwing some toughts out there.
Surgicalcric
12-19-2008, 23:59
...why the sudden urge to experiment?
Its not a "sudden urge." Experimentation and changes to the SFQC have been on going for several years and I imagine they will continue. Making things better means changing some things...this is but one of them.
I wouldnt concern myself too much with trying to figure out the who and why but instead concentrate on that 25 meter target. The former will drive you crazy after a short while, or atleast it did me.
Best of luck in the course...
Crip
Roger that sir, Understood.
Surgicalcric
12-20-2008, 13:25
Roger that sir, Understood.
Dont call me Sir...
Go do PT.
Crip
Blitzzz (RIP)
12-20-2008, 14:48
Although i haven't been to the DLI yet, I fully agree with you. What's the number 1 rule of special forces soldiers? They cannot be massed produced. So lengthening the program shouldn't be a huge challenge. I'm obviously no expert on this yet, so QP's feel more than free to correct me or tell me to shut up, but it seems as though language skills are more important now than ever. So why the sudden urge to experiment? IMHO I would have thought they would have reevaluated long ago. But whatever they choose, I'm giving it 150%. Like I said, not here to question, just to learn. Simply throwing some toughts out there.
On here QPs don't need permission to correct you or tell you to shut up, But thanks anyway. Welcome aboard and get used to it. Blitzzz
Basenshukai
12-20-2008, 16:30
Its not a "sudden urge."
Crip
I am currently assigned to the pipeline and, let me tell you, I don't even want to think too much of how we feel about many of these changes. You know who really knows what works in the pipeline? The actual cadre. You know who comes down to us and asks for our input? No one. At least, I have never heard of it. What they need is an "instructor conferrence" in SWC and use that information to make changes. Then, they should go back to the those instructors and discuss the changes to be implemented. It's all about trusting that the cadre know what they are doing and know what they are talking about.
If the instructors had their way, assessment would probably be a lot more like what it was around 2000 - 2001, but with better standards of measurement (that would have been some real improvement). SUT would be more like Ranger School in as far as the "gates" are concerned (fail "land nav", you are 'out of here', for example). And, for crying out loud, there should not be a single Soldier in SUT that can't climb a freaking rope! I've seen that far too often already. What the heck are we coming to! We are in the middle of a damn WAR! We need warriors! OK, I feel better now.
Sinister
12-20-2008, 17:25
I can't speak for the pipeline past 1984, but I can tell you that the SF Qualification pipeline has changed so much it's hard to figure exactly what the fuck it's supposed to produce when.
Ask a Ranger course graduate over the last 50 years and you'll get something fairly close to a core POI (city-mountains-maybe desert-Florida). Ask a battalion's worth of SF troops and there's no rhyme or reason -- every five years (or less) the entire course changes.
MG Shachnow (when he was the JFK CG) was asked what he would want if he could have one single thing to improve the SF pipeline. He answered something like, "Something like a meat thermometer -- we could stick it up the ass of every candidate and it could tell us if the man had what it takes to be an SF Soldier so we could ensure we get return on investment."
Official word has been recieved. They are planning on making language block the phase before SUT but, it's as official as any change to the "Q." Which means it's not official, but the plan has certainly been approved, and last word we recieved was that it is changed as of March1. Yet again, always subject to change, but i figured I would keep the thread updated.
I've been to DLI twice as well as SWC Language training. I can tell you for sure that DLI is so much more intense than SWC. I had extensive language training with SWC back during the cold war (3mo and 6mo Arabic course). Well they had a slot they needed to fill for DLI and I took it. By the time I hit 3 months out of a 12 month course in DLI the students that were there with me knew just as much Arabic as I did and then some.
I am currently assigned to the pipeline and, let me tell you, I don't even want to think too much of how we feel about many of these changes. You know who really knows what works in the pipeline? The actual cadre. You know who comes down to us and asks for our input? No one. At least, I have never heard of it. What they need is an "instructor conferrence" in SWC and use that information to make changes. Then, they should go back to the those instructors and discuss the changes to be implemented. It's all about trusting that the cadre know what they are doing and know what they are talking about.
If the instructors had their way, assessment would probably be a lot more like what it was around 2000 - 2001, but with better standards of measurement (that would have been some real improvement). SUT would be more like Ranger School in as far as the "gates" are concerned (fail "land nav", you are 'out of here', for example). And, for crying out loud, there should not be a single Soldier in SUT that can't climb a freaking rope! I've seen that far too often already. What the heck are we coming to! We are in the middle of a damn WAR! We need warriors! OK, I feel better now.
Excellent points. I can tell you for a fact that the instructors would definitely like things to go back to the way they were a few years ago. There is a certain General who I will not name who recently retired that has done more damage to the Special Forces Pipeline and degraded the capability of our Special Forces soldiers than anyone in the history of SF. All this damage was in response to being told to increase the numbers of graduates. The solution was to modify the pipeline. Unfortunately instead of adding instructors/resources they cut requirements/resources (they called it training smarter). They are producing the numbers but not a the same quality for sure.
On a brighter note the commander that took over I have a lot of faith in so hopefully he can help in this matter.
Peregrino
01-08-2009, 18:41
All right - which one of you retired guys is willing to go back to school and get a PhD Ed so you can "influence" SWCS? (Don't look at me - everybody that knows me will agree - I'm too ADHD to complete the course work! :p) I too hope the CG can make changes; I like him and think he's a good guy. Unfortunately, unless he has the time his predecessor had, I suspect the institutional inertia will probably prove an insurmountable obstacle. The SWCS hierarchy needs some seriously fresh blood and a reality sized dose of who they really work for.
The Reaper
01-08-2009, 19:30
I've been to DLI twice as well as SWC Language training. I can tell you for sure that DLI is so much more intense than SWC. I had extensive language training with SWC back during the cold war (3mo and 6mo Arabic course). Well they had a slot they needed to fill for DLI and I took it. By the time I hit 3 months out of a 12 month course in DLI the students that were there with me knew just as much Arabic as I did and then some.
Things change.
Concur on the CG issues, except quite a few resources were added during his tenure.
TR
blue02hd
01-08-2009, 21:52
Obviously the course is ALWAYS changing, hopefully for the better. IMHO I cant find a reason as to why they would do this, but in the same breath, there are people who get paid to think about these kinds of things, and I'm not one of them. Just some food for discussion here. Let's see what the QP's have to say.
Does it matter? If I were in your position, I wouldn't care what order the tasks I had to train in came as long as I ended up on a team. (Oh wait, I am in your position,,,,,)
Now lets PT.
I apologize for that wording sir. I do not believe the order in which training occurs will have any bearing on weather or not we succeed. I was simply trying to inform those who might like to know of the change. I assure you that no matter what phase of training comes first or last I'm going to put forth 150%. I apologize for coming off as someone that questions the system to much. It will not happen again.
Eagle5US
01-09-2009, 08:25
I apologize for coming off as someone that questions the system to much. It will not happen again.
How about simplifying things not coming on here posting scuttlebutt about what you think might happen?
Once it happens, everyone who needs to know will know at the appropriate time. At this point all it does is add more unanswerable questions to other potential candidates, or people in the course who are behind you. This then leads to more speculation and the inevitable "I read on the internet that such and such was going to happen". To say NOTHING of how annoying it is as an instructor to have your students lead off a question with the same statement.
"Early access" to unofficial, incomplete information does not place you in a better light here or anywhere else. It places you on the hook if it is incorrect, only partially correct, or if it changes again altogether and you were not privy to the updated info.
We have plenty of folks who are in the position to KNOW both what is going on and when it should be disseminated.
Sometimes partial / incomplete information is best kept to yourself.
Eagle
The Reaper
01-09-2009, 08:45
mac, this is not directed at you specifically, but rather to all of the kids who seem to think that getting the latest scuttlebutt about the course will ensure their success.
I would reread "A Message to Garcia", and worry less about the sequence of the events, or how many days they might be, or what was added or dropped, and more about setting my mind to the task immediately at hand, no matter what it might be, while making sure that I was in the best mental and physical condition possible.
At some point in the SFQC (as in life), knowledge of the course ahead will not sustain you, but indomitable human spirit and refusal to quit will.
Best of luck.
TR
I fully understand both your statements, and I will take them to heart. Moving out
x SF med
01-09-2009, 18:09
...
At some point in the SFQC (as in life), knowledge of the course ahead will not sustain you, but indomitable human spirit and refusal to quit will.
...
TR
Again, TR distills it down to a single concise nugget.