Rifle Scope Needed

[Roguish Lawyer]

I have consulted with a few on the board about this and think I know what I want, but one QP suggested that I start a public discussion on the topic.

I recently purchased a Remington 700P LTR in .308. I need a scope. I am not yet trained in long range target interdiction, but I will be learning from someone qualified to teach me. The rifle will be used for long-range target shooting and perhaps some hunting. I am somewhat insensitive to price, but I don't want to buy more scope than I can realistically benefit from.

I presently am inclined to purchase a Nightforce 3.5-15 x 56 NXS, but I am open to suggestions.

:munchin

[longrange1947]

If price is not a big deal then a Schmidt and Bender is the scope you need. The glass will put the Night Force to shame. Take a look at their web site. They now have a good number of scopes in that power range and you will see much better at low light when hunting then with the Night Force.

My second choice would be Zeiss or their military scope Hensholdt. Again glass is far better.

Not American but better. :munchin

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I preach a Leatherwood ART scope. Used by the military for many years'60s and '80s. It had gone out of production for some years and then resurfaced in a bad form and now have come back running hard. They have the distinction of being the ONLY scope with an external ballistic cam. The cam is attached to the power ring and when a target is "ranged" in the scope you just pull the trigger and hit (minus windage hold.
Presently he offers The M-600, the M-1000, and the M-1200.
The M-600 is zeroed at 200meters and will be crosshairs on out to 600mtrs., and is adjustable for all caliber rifles i7cal to 338cal.
The M-1000 is specifically designed for the 308 in M118 ball. It is zeroed at 300mtrs and crosshairs on out to 900 mtrs.
The M-1200 is zeroed at 300 or 400mtrs and is cross hairs on to 1200 mtrs and works 308 to 50 cal.

once zeroed the shooter can acquire,range and fire within 3 seconds. it is an excellent scope for fast shooting multiple targets.

Go the "leatherwood Optics" and watch the Video. on another note I made this recommendation to one of the 101st's bdes and they bought 24 of them. They took them to JRTC and loved them them deployed to Iraq and continued to love them. No problems no breakages still in use. Give it look see, a simple scope to use. Blitzz

[Team Sergeant]

I preach a Leatherwood ART scope.
Blitzz

I went through Special Forces sniper school using that scope, don't think I'd ever buy one.....

Great scope as long as you "always" use the same bullet....;) And even if you do use the same bullet the ballistic cam is not the most reliable instrument I've ever used......

Schmidt & Bender 12 x 50 PM II Military might be a better choice these days...

TS

[Peregrino]

Price is the "Great Discriminator". LR1947's suggestions are for guys with DEEP pockets. Wish I had the money to take his advice. One of the best long range shooters I know uses Weaver T-Series scopes. Another figures it's easier to buy adequate (cheap) scopes and "retire" them after a few seasons. Both of these guys are expert shooters with military backgrounds. Their requirements no longer demand the extreme scopes LR is recommending and they don't see the sense in "wasting" the money on unneeded capabilities. (Course both of them already have safes full of the expensive stuff too!) Many companies manufacture adequate scopes. Personal opinion - long range shooting requires resolution 1st and magnification 2nd. Light gathering is 3rd (real snipers have access to expensive toys to aid in low-light shooting). Identify your requirements - do you need the extreme capabilities (and concomitant quality) that a military or police "sniper" requires? If so, take LR's advice. Next down would probably be the NF or a US Optics. After that maybe Leupold, then Burris, Nikon. After that tradeoffs start becoming more apparent. Then you have to look at mounting systems. You're going to have fun mounting the NF 56mm obj low enough to be comfortable; you'll probably find yourself wishing for an adjustable comb before you're finished.

And (finally) to offer an answer to your original question - Leupold 4.5-14x50mm LR/T M1 TMR. It will do everything you want and not be overkill on a .308. Illuminated reticles and MD vs. TMR are outside the scope of my enthusiasm tonight. HTH

[cornelyj]

I'm kinda glad you guys started this thread. I recently purchased a rifle from a friend to bag my first deer ever.

HOLD LAUGHTER... its a Weatherby Vanguard 30-06. Its just the bolt and barrel and my plan is create a stock and fix the bolt release that is broken and maybe if I get happy with the welder I will add a tactical knob or two.

This aside I don't have a 2,000 buck budget for a scope and personally don't see spending anything more than 300 on a deer rifle scope a reality. I was wondering if you had any suggestions in that price range for a good all around scope that won't die really fast and will get the job done. I know not ever scope in your guy's safe's is in the 2 g range!:munchin

While I am on the subject do you guys have any tips for rifle construction and or preferences on shape of stock and why?



Sorry for the Hijack Lawyer.

[Justinmd]

RL,
First you will need to fully define your requirements. Long range means different things to different people. Also, what types of targets will you be shooting at? Do you want to mil with it?

For someone just getting into the game, it's hard to beat a Lupy fixed 10 power with M3 (1moa) knobs.

Nightforce makes good stuff. So does S&B of course, if you want to get let go of some money. Premier Reticles has a new scope out ($2800) that has a lot of fans, though I haven't tested ours fully yet.

If you start simple, then later you can decide if you want a FFP scope with mil knobs like an S&B, or if you like 1 or 1/4moa clicks.

[longrange1947]

My problem with the cheaper scopes is the inability of many of them to hold a zero and tracking sucks on many. We just had an example of the difference in glass. Compared several scopes side by side and the difference is noticeable in daylight. Night is especially noticeable.

TS with you, used the ART I and II as well as the "Special Urban" series for too many years and I would not buy one either. The external cam wears and that throws the trajectory off. Never did have one that was correct. :D

If you want US made then the Night Force is fine. If you are indeed insensitive to cost as stated, I would definitely go S&B and their prices are coming down.

Note, buy the S&B from Germany, the Premier Reticle scopes are a big problem. It is showing in their new line as well. The reticle will jump when first changing power. This is a noticeable jump and if you go past your power setting and come back a bit it returns to zero, if you do not then you have a zero shift. We have only noticed this on the premier made S&Bs an their new scope. Mine, German made, does not. Neither does any other German made S&B. Just a fair warning guys. You may find them on the market for a fairly cheap price, question where they were made. :munchin

[Air.177]

I believe that Leatherwood has licensed the name and that the optics are now being produced offshore, so the Leatherwood of today is not the same as the Leatherwood of old.



Good times,
Blake

[mcarey]

Dont forget that the base and rings you use will insure that your scope stays put and true. I would recommend any good one peice base (1913 picatinny) to fit your action and a good set of rings. If you spend good money on a tactical scope, I recommend LaRue or Badger they are the foundation and interface and they matter!

Also, if you pick a Nightforce I would recommend a 50mm the 56mm is too big for tactical / feild use. Larue has a nice combo with a zero stop (second link below), also necessary for quick range adjustment. Note, a S&B requires 34mm rings, not standard 30mm. Hope the links below help.

Larue links

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=35

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=216

Badger links

http://www.badgerordnance.com/productgroup.php?id=rails

http://www.badgerordnance.com/productgroup.php?id=rings

[DinDinA-2]

Here is an interesting read on BC Scopes and custom rifles.

This site has their long range rifle/scope information.

http://www.longrangestore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/botw_web_brochure.pdf

This is their home page.

http://www.thebestofthewest.net/

[JJ_BPK]

The rifle will be used for long-range target shooting and perhaps some hunting. I am somewhat insensitive to price



RL

You might want to split the effort into a hunting scope (1.5x6) and a target(10x).

The mechanical problems with scopes that have a wide range (1x to 99x) get compounded when you move from one extreme to the other end.

Minute of head at 600 yds and minute of rack at 100 yds really has different requirements..

Again, as stated,, Requirements drive the solution...

Extending the requirements will drive multiple solutions...

Additionally, If you do plan to hunt eatable critters at 600 yds, you way want to step up from the 7.62x51.. A larger caliber round can compensate with
a flatter trajectory,, sometimes.. :D

My $00.0002

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

As Mark Twain said There are two kinds of advice, the kind you accept and the kind you don't.
I like these threads because I get to read the posts of people who have actually used and not be so reliant on rumor and here say and unsubstanciated opinion.
As to the scopes I can tell you about, they are:
Two Leatherwoods the M600 and the M1200( I mentioned them above). Yes there are made abroad, so are Zeiss,(never mind). The quality of the Leatherwoods are greatly improved over their scopes of a few years back. I used the old ART I,and ART II for over 14years. I consider them to be the best type of scope for military use because they range and fire within 4 seconds.

I can say that one of my favorites is a TASCO worldclass 3 X 9, mil Dot. I used it on a heavy cal (8mm) for 11 years. and it never lost it's zero. About $80.00. I still have it in my safe as a back up but replaced it with a Leatherwood.
I have a BSA 4 x16 on My 30-06 and have had no problems with zero in 8 years of shooting 240gr HPBTs at @2650fps. About $130.00

I can only tell everyone not to be affraid of the Leatherwoods. He has produced the new M-1000 which is a new version of the old ART ii, but better. Blitzzz

[Roguish Lawyer]

RL,
First you will need to fully define your requirements. Long range means different things to different people. Also, what types of targets will you be shooting at? Do you want to mil with it?

This is really just an expensive toy for me. I live in the city and will not have many opportunities to shoot this rifle. I have never gone deer hunting but I have friends who have been trying to get me started. Most likely I will be taking it to Phoenix for occasional shooting lessons out in the desert, shooting whatever targets my instructor selects. And I may use it to hunt at some point also.

To be candid, I got this to add another capability to my toolbox. I have three handguns, a shotgun and an M-4gery; this one was acquired to add long-range capability. Having had no training at all in long-range shooting, I can't tell you what long-range means to me other than "really far away." ;)

Thanks to everyone for the comments -- keep 'em coming!

[Sinister]

I agree with Rick (LR1947) on the Schmidt/Bender and Hensholdt but the Euro exchange rate may influence your choice.

If you have access to a Mil/LE vendor or qualify call direct to Nightforce and specify you want the MILSPEC version (you'll be happier than with a commercial off-the-shelf as they are more selective on lenses and they seal the scope better on MILSPEC scopes). Mil/LE can also get a zero-stop (you dial down to your default zero of say 300 yards and dial back up). Kenton Industries can provide a laser-engraved turret with your load come-ups if you know them.

Nightforce scopes are fairly heavy but I'm happy with mine. I chose the 5.5-22X versions although lots of guys are happy with the 3.5-15X.

Rick, didn't know about the backlash problems with the Premier scopes -- good to know.

You'll want a sloped scope base (Badger, Near, or Nightforce) if you want to go all the way to 1,000 yards with a 7.62mm. The Nightforce has the available internal adjustment but you'll probably want the erector system centered in the tube for maximum windage adjustment range at your farthest distances.

[The Reaper]

I am sure he does not need my support, but I agree with Peregrino.

If you stack these out, the price list looks as follows, and only you can decide the relative value provided, especially since this is not a rifle you are currently betting lives on.

Most to least expensive, my personal observations, for comparable products and zoom ranges:

S&B $2-3K
Zeiss $1.5-2.5K
US Optics $1.5-2.5K
Nightforce $1-1.5K
Leupold $700-1200
Nikon $600-1000
Bushnell, etc. under $600
etc.

I would say that IMHO, you are likely never going to notice the difference between the S&B and the Nightforce in normal daylight shooting at the ranges you will realistically employ a .308.

You might not notice the difference between the Nightforce and the Leupold, if the ranges are shorter and the lighting is good. You will notice the extra zoom range.

Lenses are bought and sold globally for specific characteristics of the glass. Scopes are assembled in specific locations, but the glass is almost always a mixed bag of makers and national origins. More money does, to a large degree, get you better optics. The real question is whether it provides an advantage you can take advantage of. The Leupolds are more than adequate for the 700P. The Nightforce is an upgrade to a rifle that if you have it "built", you will probably never exceed the capability of in your use, unless you go into a benchrest career.

I did not like the old Leatherwoods, and consider anything less than the Leupold to be short on durability and quality. For a guy who is risking nothing but a typical deer kill, the lesser optics like the Bushnell and below are more than adequate, assuming that you test and zero them before taking them to the woods.

The Leupold M3s do give you the added advantage of a BDC that you can dial the range in on, though I do not believe that they make the M3 in the 4-14.5x.

The choice is up to you, I own some Nightforce 3.5-15xs, 5.5-22xs, Leupold Vari-X IIIs, L/RTs, M/RTs, M1s, M3s, and Ultras, Trijicons, Nikons, Bushnells, Tasco Super Snipers, etc., have shot the S&Bs, Zeiss, and Swarovskis, and I personally think the sweet spot for value lies between the Leupold L/R T and the Nightforce.

The comments on the mounts are spot on as well. Larue or Badger will not let you down. The others, well, some are good and some are bad, and some brands can be both, depending on the day it was made. You can order them and have them installed locally, or call a good smith like George at G&A and have them mount the optic, install the base and rings, do a trigger job, a big bolt knob, and a basic accuracy package. Peregrino and I have a local gunsmith who is very talented as well.

My basic 700 PSS holds .5 moa with good ammo and nothing done beyond stock but a trigger job. Rumor was, that the first PSSes were shipped with Mike Rock 5R barrels. You/your designated instructor will need to shoot yours after set up to see how it holds, a high-end barrel may or may not be needed to extract maximum accuracy. My .300 WM 700 PSS would not hold 1.5 MOA till I had it worked on, even now, with a recut factory barrel, it is barely a sub-MOA gun. The .308 is a tack driver.

Then we can start a new thread on .308 ammo to feed your new baby. And maybe rifle cases, cleaning gear, spotting scopes, rangefinders, and other assorted accessories that always seem to be needed (and which will further lighten your wallet).

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[HOLLiS]

Thanks for the good read. May I throw out the name, Burris. I have several full field and a black diamond. I also have and had had several Leupolds.

Any opinions on the Burris'. At night they seem brighter than the Leupolds that I had (maybe I just didn't have a high enough quality Leupold).

[Roguish Lawyer]

I am sure he does not need my support, but I agree with Peregrino.

If you stack these out, the price list looks as follows, and only you can decide the relative value provided, especially since this is not a rifle you are currently betting lives on.

Most to least expensive, my personal observations, for comparable products and zoom ranges:

S&B $2-3K
Zeiss $1.5-2.5K
US Optics $1.5-2.5K
Nightforce $1-1.5K
Leupold $700-1200
Nikon $600-1000
Bushnell, etc. under $600
etc.

I would say that IMHO, you are likely never going to notice the difference between the S&B and the Nightforce in normal daylight shooting at the ranges you will realistically employ a .308.

You might not notice the difference between the Nightforce and the Leupold, if the ranges are shorter and the lighting is good. You will notice the extra zoom range.

Lenses are bought and sold globally for specific characteristics of the glass. Scopes are assembled in specific locations, but the glass is almost always a mixed bag of makers and national origins. More money does, to a large degree, get you better optics. The real question is whether it provides an advantage you can take advantage of. The Leupolds are more than adequate for the 700P. The Nightforce is an upgrade to a rifle that if you have it "built", you will probably never exceed the capability of in your use, unless you go into a benchrest career.

I did not like the old Leatherwoods, and consider anything less than the Leupold to be short on durability and quality. For a guy who is risking nothing but a typical deer kill, the lesser optics like the Bushnell and below are more than adequate, assuming that you test and zero them before taking them to the woods.

The Leupold M3s do give you the added advantage of a BDC that you can dial the range in on, though I do not believe that they make the M3 in the 4-14.5x.

The choice is up to you, I own some Nightforce 3.5-15xs, 5.5-22xs, Leupold Vari-X IIIs, L/RTs, M/RTs, M1s, M3s, and Ultras, Trijicons, Nikons, Bushnells, Tasco Super Snipers, etc., have shot the S&Bs, Zeiss, and Swarovskis, and I personally think the sweet spot for value lies between the Leupold L/R T and the Nightforce.

The comments on the mounts are spot on as well. Larue or Badger will not let you down. The others, well, some are good and some are bad, and some brands can be both, depending on the day it was made. You can order them and have them installed locally, or call a good smith like George at G&A and have them mount the optic, install the base and rings, do a trigger job, a big bolt knob, and a basic accuracy package. Peregrino and I have a local gunsmith who is very talented as well.

My basic 700 PSS holds .5 moa with good ammo and nothing done beyond stock but a trigger job. Rumor was, that the first PSSes were shipped with Mike Rock 5R barrels. You/your designated instructor will need to shoot yours after set up to see how it holds, a high-end barrel may or may not be needed to extract maximum accuracy. My .300 WM 700 PSS would not hold 1.5 MOA till I had it worked on, even now, with a recut factory barrel, it is barely a sub-MOA gun. The .308 is a tack driver.

Then we can start a new thread on .308 ammo to feed your new baby. And maybe rifle cases, cleaning gear, spotting scopes, rangefinders, and other assorted accessories that always seem to be needed (and which will further lighten your wallet).

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR


Typically I just do what TR tells me to do, and for good reason. But let me dare to do the following:

LR1947 and Gene Econ, do you agree with TR's comments?

:munchin

[AngelsSix]

I personally have found TR's training, advice and judgement to be very sound. I actually teach CCH here and gladly pass on what he has taught me to my new students. Speaking of which, in the Spring I am heading out there for some well-earned rest and some training, so you had better start loading rounds now, Boss!!!:D

As far as the scopes go, I do not have any real experience with them, but have had experience with the folks that use them. It does indeed depend on what you will be using it for. Many of the guys have more than one scope for just that reason. I always go with the advice that you will have to decide on what will work for you. I have heard some awesome things about S&B, but they cost a few dimes. I personally would start with something less expensive and decide if I needed something better. But then again, I am only a student, so I am perpetually broke.:(

[Team Sergeant]

I personally have found TR's training, advice and judgement to be very sound. I actually teach CCH here and gladly pass on what he has taught me to my new students. Speaking of which, in the Spring I am heading out there for some well-earned rest and some training, so you had better start loading rounds now, Boss!!!:D

(

A6, let me know if you want some time behind a scope.;)

[Peregrino]

A6 - If you want rifle time Saturday (1000 until), send me a PM. Weather permitting we're doing 600 and 1000 (I'm not into miserable so if the sunshine is liquid, I'm not playing).

[frostfire]

You'll want a sloped scope base (Badger, Near, or Nightforce) if you want to go all the way to 1,000 yards with a 7.62mm. Quoted for truth. Went to Benning F-class once without a sloped base. Ended up holding 3 mil high just to touch the target.

The choice is up to you, I own some Nightforce 3.5-15xs, 5.5-22xs, Leupold Vari-X IIIs, L/RTs, M/RTs, M1s, M3s, and Ultras, Trijicons, Nikons, Bushnells, Tasco Super Snipers

Reaper Sir, would you mind sharing your perspective on the good and bad of the Tasco super sniper?

Illuminated reticles and MD vs. TMR are outside the scope of my enthusiasm tonight.

Peregrino, I would like to hear your take on the two. Gene Econ told me the following:
"The mil dot reticle is designed around upper torso targets. When the targets get smaller, the error gets increased in range estimation and holds. The TMR is a better choice as the tick marks give more precision in aiming. Also, the reticule pattern has tick marks on the outside of the reticle that are .1 MIL I believe so you have a more precise scale to use in your range estimation on small targets."

Sorry for the hijack RL. Not too often the masters pour their brains out on what I'm very passionate about: long range shooting. Nothing like seeing steel moves, hearing the hit confirmation, then the actual "ping" after a second or so.Here are some resources to flatten the learning curve (or in my case it helps to spend some time in study/simulation before range time). Hope you find them helpful.
All copy and paste
snipercountry.com/Articles/RealTruthAboutMilDots.asp by none other than Rick B/Longrange1947
shooterready.com/mildot.html
demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting

[Roguish Lawyer]

Sorry for the hijack RL.

No worries, the purpose of this thread is to discuss scopes -- it's not just about my needs. :)

[longrange1947]

RL - Yes agree with TR on the scopes. I threw the S&B out there as you said you were price insensitive and figured you could go for the best. There are many lower cost products out there that will do you well. From Night Force higher end to Burris lower end. Most now have the ability to play in the BDC range with a bit of tape and a fine point pen.

The mil Dot scope is a scope used to range (Back up, not primary ranging device) hold for winds when they get real squirrelly on the range tactical environment the primary wind compensation device, holds for movers, and rapid correction for change in target or range. With some practice, accuracy for miling for range can be in the .05 range, our students do it all the time as do the instructors. Other reticles are merely a mid of the mil dot, some are great some are not as good. I for one do not like the illuminated reticles as it makes the reticle too thick and most of the time we shoot with NVDs. The illuminated reticle can and will wash out the target if care is not taken. Try off set vision and the reticle and target will come into view for the shot in lowered illumination. We have shot until after midnight with the day scopes and non illuminated reticles to 600 meters on a KD range. Unk distance is problem due to target recognition and blending in to the background. Over all the mil dot or the TMR is a tactical reticle and not usually used on the target range.

My two cents. and waiting for incommin... :munchin :D

[The Reaper]

Reaper Sir, would you mind sharing your perspective on the good and bad of the Tasco super sniper?

It is a great scope for what it costs.

Not necessarily a great scope though.

Durable, but the glass and the coatings are not particularly good.

TR

[bravo22b]

I will cautiously venture my opinion on the Tasco Super Sniper 10x42. I've had one on my .308 Remington 700 PSS for the past ten years or so, while waiting to be able to afford something better.

Firing Federal Gold Medal match ammo, I have consistently been able to shoot sub-MOA groups at up to 300 yards (the longest public rifle range in my area), so either the scope and rifle combination are capable of that accuracy, or I am just a lucky shot. Therefore, I have no complaints regarding the accuracy potential and repeatability of the scope.

My biggest complaint, and the reason why I will definitely trade up to a better scope, is the 1/4 MOA adjustments, and the action of the turret knobs themselves. The "click" that should accompany each increment of adjustment is totally unable to be felt, and is only audible in near complete silence, a condition not generally found while shooting. I have read that this is due to the O-rings that waterproof the knobs, and that it has been fixed on newer scopes, but I have no experience to back this up. YMMV.

As has been pointed out by others far more experienced than I, the 1/4 MOA adjustments are a hassle, and probably too fine an adjustment for tactical use when targets may have to be engaged at different ranges. Combined with the poor action of the turret knobs, it makes dialing in correct elevation for range far more difficult and time-consuming than it should be.

All that said, I'm not sorry I bought it for my first mil-dot scope, but I want something better. Anyone want to buy a used Tasco?

[Peregrino]

FF - LR1947 and GE have more experience with MILDOT than I do. LR's last post will save me a lot of typing. I agree with GE about the TMR (and similar) but my reasoning is tangental. It's a training issue - as LR says MD is a back-up ranging device. It requires training and practice to maintain proficiency. I'm barely competent, even with a MILDOT Master (thanks for the suggestion/confirmation LR) because I don't spend enough time ranging unknown distance to maintain my skills (and my eyes are getting older :(). (That's why I like LRFs.) IMHO the TMRs are easier to use for holdovers while still having a ranging capability. Most people never use the MILDOT feature for it's intended function anyway. WHAT FOLLOWS IS PERSONAL OPINION! I think holdover is easier to train on the TMR and requires less practice to maintain. If I need to explain longer range shooting to a novice, I rarely bother to discuss MILDOT ranging. Think of it as an "economy of effort" measure. It means less experienced or less "practiced" shooters can function at a DMR level with less resource investment.

I'm getting ready to demote my Super Sniper to one of my M1As. It's perfectly adequate on that platform; certainly one of the best "values" I've gotten in optics, but it's not on par with Leupold and competitors. FWIW.

[Sinister]

I have a number of Leupold M3LRs (including one on a 700VS I use for hunting) and I'd recommend it for an all-around scope if you're not planning on abusing it. Jury's still out on how durable and how well it'll hold up on top of an AR-10T.

I have seen only one Leupold 4.5-16 (I think was the power range) with M3 turrets.

Looking through the M3LR (especially at dusk) after looking through Swarovski EL binos or Kowa ED glass spotting scopes all day the Leupold's glass looks almost yellow compared to really good glass.

The Nightforce's "Hollow" mil-dots are very handy. I've not used the TMR reticle.

We had LOTs of adjustment backlash problems with Leupold M1s at the Army Marksmanship Unit (for 1,000 yard competition), and the only M3LRs left are on student rifles. We'd dial in elevation or windage changes and get nothing. Dial in a second correction and get a huge jump.

Nightforce and Schmidt Bender both (quietly) offer military discounts.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Not that anyone seems to care but 24 of the new Leatherwood M-1200s were purchased by a unit in the 3d BDE of the 101st for a reduced price and given a Life time warranty to boot.
I heard the comments about the Leatherwoods on this sight but I assure you the new ones are very fine and thus far dependable, as they were deployed to JRTC and then to Iraq and are still being used and the troops love them.
TS, the cams ride on a teflon ball and will not wear as the old ones did.
They've been tested with 50 cal rifles without problems.
They are the primary ranging device unlike the mildot and there is no unknown distance because you range thru the scope and it automaticlly elevates the cross hairs. just range and shoot nothing could be simpler Blitzzz

[Roguish Lawyer]

Boy, I thought I was a reasonably smart guy until I tried to read this. Maybe this is why I didn't go to medical school . . . ;)

OK, time to try again . . .

[Roguish Lawyer]

Here are some resources to flatten the learning curve (or in my case it helps to spend some time in study/simulation before range time). Hope you find them helpful.

All copy and paste

snipercountry.com/Articles/RealTruthAboutMilDots.asp by none other than Rick B/Longrange1947

shooterready.com/mildot.html

demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting

Great stuff, thanks!!!

[longrange1947]

RL - Remember, I was booted from college for my poor English writing skills, that may contribute to the difficulty in reading the article and not your abilities. :D

Blitzz - One of the reasons that I do not like the ART series is that the scope is stuck on a certain size object to range and that the scope will be at different power settings at different ranges. I will admit that I have not used the newer models but I spent years with the older models as I stared in the earlier posts. The ARTI was a better scope IMHO then the ARTII as it was less complicated and the split in power and range caused a slip in the cam when that little piece of metal slid out of it's notch. The MPC was just an upgrade to try and get the ART up for Urban/hostage situations.

I am not sure how they can claim that one cam will fit all trajectories as that goes against the trajectory pattern. When one bullet has a bullet drop of 6 feet at 800 and another has a bullet drop of only 4 feet then you have a problem. :munchin

[Roguish Lawyer]

RL - Remember, I was booted from college for my poor English writing skills, that may contribute to the difficulty in reading the article and not your abilities. :D


Believe me, it's not the writing! I just need to reactivate the parts of my brain that do math . . . ;)

[Roguish Lawyer]

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

First I do concur with the ART I being better than the ART II, but the difference between those an the new are great. I used he ART I from '75 to '79 and the ART II from '80 to '83. I made 1250 meter shots with the ART I (with a lot of hold over) and used to shoot Oranges with the ART II at 300 meters. We only had a 300 meter range at that time.
The problem you speak of is the fact that seperating the Power ring and Ballistic cam for a "better view" would be left that way if one was not religous in returning the two together. If you didn't then the next ranging would be off..

yes it's not as accurate as a Laser but is as a Mil Dot.
The old ARTs had a 15" stadia line above and below the cross hairs giving 30 inch of bracketing or 15 in of bracketing. The new ones do also, wih an additon of ranging lines in the lower corner.

The new ones are much better in construction and can be used on .50 Cals.
I think for te money that it's a great start for an inexperiennced shooter.
Other than learning windage hold off , it's all cross hair on.

As to the different Ballistic archs per caliber they now three wheels and each different cal can locked into the rings.
I have one on an 8mm mauser rebuild and there wasn 't a setting for that one but the scope comes with instrucion how to set that Arch...and it works fine on this 8mm.

Not to get in a pissing contest, I just want to pass on some very good news annd I'd like to see more use in the Army. I don't say bad things about any scope that is not a POS. and these are not. Blitzzz

[frostfire]

Boy, I thought I was a reasonably smart guy until I tried to read this. Maybe this is why I didn't go to medical school . . . ;)

OK, time to try again . . .

heh heh

That's why I included the simulation link. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a moving picture should helps further. I have no financial gain from this, but I'd recommend giving the full version CD a shot. It really helps build that initial confidence (mental part). If you got second thoughts or need confirmation, shoot me a PM and I'll forward Rick and Major Econ's take on the simulation. Then you can decide for yourselves.

Great stuff, thanks!!!

You're welcome. There are selfless professionals here and at the range giving their time, effort, and often, equipments, to forge my skills...gratis!. So it's only natural for me to give back/pass the buck at every opportunity. A match director at the range serves as a role model. He does his part in preserving the 2nd amendment by introducing marksmanship as a safe, interesting, and challenging activity to folks of all age, size, gender, etc.

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

well IMHOO....from a HP mindset, I'd say iron ;). I was taught that "optics don't make a poor marksman better, but worse." Optics magnify the target, as well as your visible wobble zone (movements). Unless the eye is already trained to accept a decent sight picture while maintaining perfect alignment via a good hold, all that movements can introduce errors and bad habit. Having said that....go with mildot/TMR. You can always use it as plain crosshair (duplex) and ignore the dots. Then, when you decide you want to play with holdovers, ranging, etc., it's there for you to use.

ok...withdrawing to my lane...

[Gene Econ]

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

LR:

I agree with Rick, TR, and Peregrino. What they are trying to do is to focus you in (no pun please) some in terms of requirements. Unfortunately, most folks new to this don't know how to define their requirements.

Here is a question that may 'hep'.

What type of target will you be shooting for the majority of your shooting time?

If hunting -- what type of game and where in terms of geography.

If you intend on shooting competitively -- what sport or discipline?

If for pure enjoyment, what is the average size of the target you will shoot, at what average distance, and at what maximum distance? Give a SWAG on the size and distances.

Do you have a significant requirement to shoot targets that are moving?

You see, optics are a bit more specific than cartridges or rifle design in terms of use. There is no one size fits all with optics.

Give it your best and before folks starts saying "you forgot this or that" -- read the questions I asked and look at the implied requirements involved with each question.

Gene

[clapdoc]

Wow, sure is great to able to so much info.
If you are new to long range shooting i suggest that you look at a Leupold VX II scope.
Just remember, no high dollar scope can replace knowing your weapon and what it will do with the bullet you are shooting at that time.
You don't need a lot of knobs to turn and a computer when sighting at targets or an animal.
Go to a respected gun store or someone you trust and compare the scope mounts, your comfortable head position in relation to the reticule of the scope, then get zeroed and go to the range and shoot until you know that weapon like the back of your hand.
Just my .02 cents.

clapdoc sends

[Roguish Lawyer]

Thanks very much for your reply!


What type of target will you be shooting for the majority of your shooting time?

Range targets -- paper, tin cans, cactus, whatever we decide to shoot at.



If hunting -- what type of game and where in terms of geography.

Principally deer I imagine, but I'd like as much flexibility as possible for North American hunting. My hunting to date (other than for rattlesnakes) has been at grocery stores and restaurants. ;) Now fishing, that I have some experience with.



If you intend on shooting competitively -- what sport or discipline?

I don't.



If for pure enjoyment, what is the average size of the target you will shoot, at what average distance, and at what maximum distance? Give a SWAG on the size and distances.

I would imagine I would start learning at shorter distances like maybe 50-100 yards, shooting at 8 1/2 by 11 sheets of paper with bullseye targets on them, then work my way out as far as I can go. But I will do whatever my instructor tells me to do -- he is a SOTIC grad and I know nothing. I just want to learn for fun, not so much for real requirements I have.



Do you have a significant requirement to shoot targets that are moving?


Not yet, but that sounds like something I would want to be able to do after I learn to hit stationary targets.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Got an e-mail from a QP suggesting that I get a cheaper scope to start with, then get something better once I have a better understanding of what I need. Sounds like good advice, what does everyone think?

[Peregrino]

PM inbound.

[Leozinho]

What kind of reticle is best? I am a complete beginner, but I don't mind learning to drive with a Lamborghini if there's no downside to doing that . . .

Horus Vision, perhaps? I'm not qualified to say it's the best, but it has some advantages and should be discussed.

Easier milling due to .2 mil spacing between hash marks. And unlike the traditional mildot reticle, you have a hash mark to place on the target if you are holding for both elevation and windage. Since there's no need to dial for elevation or windage, it's quicker.

I didn't find it to be too "busy" (which is the only criticism that I have heard about it.) There may be problems of which I'm not aware.

I don't think you can get a Horus reticle in a decent scope for less than $900, and at that price that scope is not the best bang for the buck. You can get Horus reticles put in the top of the line scopes, though.

http://horusvision.com/reticles.php



Got an e-mail from a QP suggesting that I get a cheaper scope to start with, then get something better once I have a better understanding of what I need. Sounds like good advice, what does everyone think?


I'd take a Savage donor rifle, add a pre-threaded aftermarket barrel and replace the stock. I'd buy a used Bushnell Elite 4200. I'd rather spend the difference between a S&B and the Bushnell on ammo and training. If you feel the need to upgrade, you can sell the Bushnell easily on the 'net and get most of your money back. (This is actually what I'm planning to do, except for upgrading the scope. I personally can't justify a S&B for a rifle that's just going to be shooting steel.)

[Peregrino]

I'd take a Savage donor rifle, add a pre-threaded aftermarket barrel and replace the stock. I'd buy a used Bushnell Elite 4200. I'd rather spend the difference between a S&B and the Bushnell on ammo and training. If you feel the need to upgrade, you can sell the Bushnell easily on the 'net and get most of your money back. (This is actually what I'm planning to do, except for upgrading the scope. I personally can't justify a S&B for a rifle that's just going to be shooting steel.)

I like the way you think! :D Both of those choices are underrated (which makes them good values). NTM - the average lay-person can probably delay the rifle tweaks for a while and concentrate on learning to shoot and educating themselves with some practical experience before investing in "bells and whistles".

[Gene Econ]

I would imagine I would start learning at shorter distances like maybe 50-100 yards, shooting at 8 1/2 by 11 sheets of paper with bullseye targets on them, then work my way out as far as I can go. But I will do whatever my instructor tells me to do -- he is a SOTIC grad and I know nothing. I just want to learn for fun, not so much for real requirements I have. Not yet, but that sounds like something I would want to be able to do after I learn to hit stationary targets.


RL:

No sweat.

A good idea is to 'axed' your instructor what his target sizes and distances are and then his advice on an optic with a reticle pattern.

Peregrino, TS, TR, can assist you better than I can. Rick has already made his comments I believe.

My advice is this.

Avoid complex reticle patterns like the Horus Vision. The more lines and tick marks in your vision, the more you are distracted from seeing precision. I prefer one cross hair with maybe one or two tick marks to indicate distances or leads. That is it.

Get an optic with at least 10X for 600 yards and 20X for 1K yards. You can dope winds with a decent 20X optic if its 'resolution' is good (see Peregrino's comments). I do not advise you to go over 20X until you have learned your lessons.

Get and optic that has a side focus/parralax adjustment.

You won't need anything bigger than a 50MM objective lens for anything you want to do. I would go with a 35MM objective for daylight myself.

Take the comments of Sinister with total trust in terms of Leupold's that won't repeat, and the value of certain optics in 1000 yard competition which is much more demanding than combat purposes in terms of consistent accuracy. He has also been in combat so no nonsence here please.

Then read again the comments of Rick, Peregrino, and TR.

Remember that Rick has tested more top end optics than anyone here; Peregrino is an accomplished competitive rifleman as is Rick, and TR is a no-nonsense pragmatist with significant experience in the tactical side.

No, I haven't forgotten TS. He is a fantastic trainer and a great leader. So get out of him his conditions and standards please. Then you all can hook and jab some about this or that optic.

Gene

[mcarey]

Whatever optic you decide on, I would recommend www.swfa.com as a good place to start the hunt for a good price. Be sure to check their sample list http://www.samplelist.com/ (scratched tubes or demo models just as god as new and can be 30-80% off) they are good folks and carry most optics in stock. Usually can save you 10-70% on most retail MSRP's.

[longrange1947]

RL - Take care with "cheaper" scopes. You increase your odds at getting a stinker and it is frustrating to start your learning curve with a scope that holds you back. A scope that has poor glass, aberrations, poor clarity, no repeatability and won't hold a zero is beyond frustrating.

Remember you get what you pay for, while you do not need bells and whistles, make sure what you get is quality. I have recommended the Savage rifle for learning a number of times and think it is great for a new shooter on a budget. However if I am not on a budget then I will get a slightly better set up so my learning curve is not hampered by equipment.

I recommend you stay away from reticles that are cluttered with lines dots and bells and whistles. You are going to dial in range anyway so you do not heed to hold for range and that is the only real advantage of the Horus. Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie and that is the reason why all of Horus ranges are set up so the target is against a dirt bank.

I will say it again, if you have the money and it is not an issue, do not short yourself on the glass, it will come back and bite you.

[frostfire]

Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie .

Rick, I just went through the site and something caught my attention
(copy and paste) horusvision.com/demos.php
It's the one that says Horus Reticle in Action, 4th from the top, Second-Shot-Correction

Can the shooter, using his own rifle scope, accurately pinpoint at which mark his first shot hit the wall to make the proper hold-off for the second shot?
(even with the simulation assumptions that the wind stays the same, crystal clear pic/contrast of target and reticle, and the shooter got a perfectly-still hold)

I'm just a grasshopper and may not fully know what I'm doing, but the muzzle lift (prone using bipod and/or bag) pretty much made me unable to spot my own shot esp. by only looking through the rifle scope. I also recall your points on being careful with making correction based on dirt splash as the rifle scope (and spotting scope) does not offer depth perception.

[Roguish Lawyer]

RL - Take care with "cheaper" scopes. You increase your odds at getting a stinker and it is frustrating to start your learning curve with a scope that holds you back. A scope that has poor glass, aberrations, poor clarity, no repeatability and won't hold a zero is beyond frustrating.

Remember you get what you pay for, while you do not need bells and whistles, make sure what you get is quality. I have recommended the Savage rifle for learning a number of times and think it is great for a new shooter on a budget. However if I am not on a budget then I will get a slightly better set up so my learning curve is not hampered by equipment.

I recommend you stay away from reticles that are cluttered with lines dots and bells and whistles. You are going to dial in range anyway so you do not heed to hold for range and that is the only real advantage of the Horus. Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie and that is the reason why all of Horus ranges are set up so the target is against a dirt bank.

I will say it again, if you have the money and it is not an issue, do not short yourself on the glass, it will come back and bite you.


So should I get a Nightforce if I can afford an S&B?

[The Reaper]

RL - Take care with "cheaper" scopes. You increase your odds at getting a stinker and it is frustrating to start your learning curve with a scope that holds you back. A scope that has poor glass, aberrations, poor clarity, no repeatability and won't hold a zero is beyond frustrating.

Remember you get what you pay for, while you do not need bells and whistles, make sure what you get is quality. I have recommended the Savage rifle for learning a number of times and think it is great for a new shooter on a budget. However if I am not on a budget then I will get a slightly better set up so my learning curve is not hampered by equipment.

I recommend you stay away from reticles that are cluttered with lines dots and bells and whistles. You are going to dial in range anyway so you do not heed to hold for range and that is the only real advantage of the Horus. Do not fall into the Horus trap of correcting off of dirt explosions from the bullet hitting the ground. On some targets, the dirt explosion is a blatant lie and that is the reason why all of Horus ranges are set up so the target is against a dirt bank.

I will say it again, if you have the money and it is not an issue, do not short yourself on the glass, it will come back and bite you.

Steel on target, hermano.

Great comments.

The Horus reticle is designed, as I understand it, to allow the shooter to use the old tanker gunner trick of adjusting for a "burst on target" with the second round. I would say that is of dubious value to a shooter like RL, and may lead to some bad habits.

I would avoid the cheap scopes for the reasons mentioned.

My personal opinion is that a $3000 optic will not make you a better shooter at this point than a $1200 scope, but it may make you a better shooter than the frustration of a $200 scope. The rifle you are buying is not capable of demonstrating that level of accuracy, though you will get the ability to see through it for a few minutes more during marginal light conditions and a couple of other bells and whistles.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

So should I get a Nightforce if I can afford an S&B?

Should I purchase a Ford Focus when I can afford a BMW 7 Series Sedan? They both do the same thing?:rolleyes:

[longrange1947]

RL - Simply put without anything else in the mix, if I can afford the best I buy the best. Why would I spend 1500 now and then go for a better scope in two years and then shell out another 2500? In those two years I will have learned my scope and equipment and would have steel on target. :D

Can a shooter see his own impact? Yes. Can he adjust from that impact? Yes and No. Unless he has a good mark, the recoil will prevent him from seeing precisely where the bullet hit on the reticle as the reticle will have moved. That is why the videos show the impact on a wall or dirt berm where the mark can be seen. Lets take this to another level. When student observers miss trace and watch dirt explosions they are subject to another miss. The reason is simple, if the target is not next to a dirt berm or a wall the round can and does travel past the target a goodly distance. The wind can and will blow the round around to the other side of the target causing a miss left to appear as a miss right. The original premise was for the observer to use the Horus spotting scope and the observer spot impact and read this to the shooter, however all the lines prevent the observer from seeing trace clearly so if there is no impact then the observer has no idea where the round went and thus no correction. Another pain is when the vegetation is high enough that no dirt explosion is seen. And lastly the Horus requires the shooter to use a computer to get the mil read on targets and wind holds. Oh you can use all the formulas and rules and SWAG one, but you are back to the mil reticle holds then. Bottom line is I would avoid that reticle. :munchin :D

[Soft Target]

Speaking of scopes, I'm still looking for one that doesn't leave a crescent mark above my right eye every time I pull the trigger.

Seriously, Merry Christmas to all. I'll be in wilds of NM (near T-or-C) shooting with the kids. Now that's a Merry Christmas!

[Roguish Lawyer]

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind? :munchin

[The Reaper]

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind? :munchin

I don't know.

How do you plan to shoot it? Offhand, benchrest, etc., etc.

If you determine that you need one, I like the Harris, though I am sure that you will insist on the Parker-Hale.:p

TR

[Team Sergeant]

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind? :munchin

Yeah, cept in your case it should be a tri-pod.

[mcarey]

Should I get a bipod? If so, what kind? :munchin

I would recommend a harris with cant adjustment, this feature is imperitive to allow rapid leveling of the gun/reticle. http://www.harrisbipods.com/HBRS.html

Shop around and you may be able to get it cheaper.

I would also recommend a good tactical sling - either a Turner in Biothane http://www.turnersling.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TS&Product_Code=NMSRAWS
or Tactical Intervention w/ cuff http://www.tacticalintervention.com/modelm24usmilitary.html .

Buld a good foundation and the shot is natural as is the point of aim!

[Sinister]

Good to "See" ya, Mark!

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I like the Harris also. Blitzzz

[longrange1947]

Yeah, cept in your case it should be a tri-pod.

Now that is mean! :D

I agree with the Harris with cant. I find it more steady then the Parker Hale. If you use it be sure and take all the loading off the springs when you shoot.

Also agree with Mark's recommendations on the slings.

Instant trivia, what does MRT stand for on the old military leather slings? :munchin :D

And yes, stay away from them. Too much pain and no gain.

[frostfire]

Instant trivia, what does MRT stand for on the old military leather slings? :munchin :D

And yes, stay away from them. Too much pain and no gain.

mildew resistant treated.

Some folks at gunshow would claim MRT stands for military grade and such, claim it's superior than the old GI web sling, then rob you off your hard-earned $$$

[Gene Econ]

Also agree with Mark's recommendations on the slings. Instant trivia, what does MRT stand for on the old military leather slings? :munchin :D

Rick:

Slings are the invention of Satan IMHO. 'Expecially' that M-1907.

Get a canvas M-1 Garand sling at a gun show for eight dollars. Get four or five in fact as they aren't 'mildew resistant'. Or be smart and buy one of Mike's cuff slings.

I recall breaking several MRT slings when blasting with the coveted M-14. Broke four or five sling swivels which is a testament to the MRT sling's strength. Bent them and finally pulled them out of that little thingee that holds them to the forend. Only once did I pull the studs holding the sling swivel out of the forend of an M-14. Ripped it from the wooden stock. Tough to repair but it has held up.

I believe I have defined 'hold hard'.

Use a cuff sling if you want to shoot unsupported. If you want to blast from a bipod -- buy a Garand canvas sling for eight bucks and latch on to it with the non firing hand and pull back into the shoulder -- same as the old automatic rifleman stuff of Rick's era. Lord Have Mercy.

Oh yes -- Mark Carey -- like you can drop me a line maybe?

Gene

[longrange1947]

Gene - I use the old canvas sling for comp. A slight modification and it is a great little adjustable sling. Many do not like it as it is not "high speed". :D

I need to try and post a picture of the sling with the mod so others can see how it works. IT is legal as a military sling for service rifle competition.

[Gene Econ]

Gene - I use the old canvas sling for comp. A slight modification and it is a great little adjustable sling. Many do not like it as it is not "high speed". :D I need to try and post a picture of the sling with the mod so others can see how it works. IT is legal as a military sling for service rifle competition.

Rick:

That is what I am talking about. M-1 Garand canvas sling. Cost is eight to ten dollars at a gun show. I know the technique you use with this type of sling and use it myself. I have worn out some due to fraying but so what at ten dollars a copy? A high speed leather sling costs fifty bucks and is a pain in the ass to adjust while in position.

I have a couple of Sling M-1907's with the coveted MRT coating sitting around in the packages somewhere. I recall maybe fifteen or twenty years ago that we got a bunch of these that were about a foot too short. Couldn't even use them with an M-16. Probably some bureaucrat thought they could save money by using less leather and the coveted MRT impregnation that doesn't work. I doubt you could sling up with one of those if you used a M-4 and were a "Little Person".

Merry Christmas to All and to All a Good Night!

Gene

[irnbndr]

For what it is worth, I prefer not to spend alot on glass. I have a 4-12x40Leupold VX II on my hunting rig. (Remington 700 classic (BDL), 7mm Rem Mag). I hunt both mule deer and whitetail, ususally taking shots from 150m to 300m. My "medium range" AR-15 has a Leupold MK IV 4.5-14x40 mildot reticle. I shoot paper out to 600m with that weapon due to the lack of ranges with anything deeper.

For a beginner, these scopes will suit you perfectly. Anything more and you are wasting your money IMO.

I would agree with others who have posted here stating that iron sights would serve you best until you know your weapon and are able to aquire the neccessary muscle memory for accurate shooting.
Happy shooting!

[Gene Econ]

I would agree with others who have posted here stating that iron sights would serve you best until you know your weapon and are able to aquire the neccessary muscle memory for accurate shooting.
Happy shooting!

IRN:

What is muscle memory in terms of marksmanship?

LR1955

[frostfire]

Rick:

That is what I am talking about. M-1 Garand canvas sling. Cost is eight to ten dollars at a gun show. I know the technique you use with this type of sling and use it myself.


Gene Econ Sir,

is the technique you and Rick mentioned different than this
(copy and paste) ray-vin.com/tech/websling/webslinghelp.htm

[longrange1947]

It is similar but I pull the running end of the sling through the first buckle. This produces a sling loop that tightens as you apply pressure to the loop and you can still use the quick adjust buckle. Leaving the rear clip allows the sling to be snapped into the rear sling swivel for standing offhand.

It is hard to explain and would require a couple of photos. My sling is out at work and I will not return to work until 5 Jan so can not take photos until then.

[GratefulCitizen]

This thread was the closest I could find, but still couldn't find an answer.
Google-fu is failing as well.

Anyone ever heard of a Leupold Vari-x iii with a 34mm tube?
Older or custom perhaps?

[Justinmd]

Leupold's only 34mm scope of which I am aware is their one of their newer "PSR" type scopes. It is not a vari-x III. You can recognize this scope because the turrets are the size of soup cans, and there is a little button on top that you have to push down to turn the turrets.
Justin

[Buffalobob]

They have several 34mm scopes now in the military tactical models plus the discontinued VX-7L. But as far as the older VariXs I never heard nor saw one in 34mm but I never made it my business to keep track of scopes.

[GratefulCitizen]

34mm on the VX-3 not an option at the Leupold custom shop, either.
Nonetheless, the one in my possession seems to be such a creature.

Maybe the custom shop used to do it.
<shrug>

If it proves to work well, I'll have no complaints.

[Buffalobob]

Make sure it is not a knock off clone.

[longrange1947]

Some of the military scopes, based on the varX-3 series have been in 34 but I thought they were not for sale and only X models. Gives them more travel and a little more rugged. May be what you have. Could be abd clone as well though. :munchin :D

On a side note, you guys need to take a look at the new Bushell tactical series. Nice scope and the price is in the ball park of the average guy. Ihave looked at them and would own one before a Night Force anyday. :D

Needs a bit more work before perfect but so does most items.

[mark46th]

RL- It has been 2 1/2 years since you started this thread. Where and how are you shooting? I'm in the LA area and Burro Canyon is about the only range still open.

[dadof18x'er]

RL- It has been 2 1/2 years since you started this thread. Where and how are you shooting? I'm in the LA area and Burro Canyon is about the only range still open.

RL, what did you end up with? what did you learn?;)

[GratefulCitizen]

Some of the military scopes, based on the varX-3 series have been in 34 but I thought they were not for sale and only X models. Gives them more travel and a little more rugged. May be what you have. Could be abd clone as well though. :munchin :D


It came mounted on the rifle -- a Robar SR60.
The previous owner also left the handload data for this rifle.

If it was a scam, it was thorough.

[koz]

On a side note, you guys need to take a look at the new Bushell tactical series. Nice scope and the price is in the ball park of the average guy. Ihave looked at them and would own one before a Night Force anyday. :D

Needs a bit more work before perfect but so does most items.

I'll second this - Bushnell has been hard at work.

[dollarbill]

I'll second this - Bushnell has been hard at work.
Might want to take a look at Nikon Scopes. The Spot On ballistic match with a Buckmaster 4.5 - 14x40 is awesome.

[mark46th]

I have a simple Buckmaster 3-9X40 on my M70 in .270 that I love. But I put a Leupold MK4 4.5-14X50 on my .338.

[koz]

Might want to take a look at Nikon Scopes. The Spot On ballistic match with a Buckmaster 4.5 - 14x40 is awesome.

Two different animals. The BDC is fine for hunting, but Bushnell is putting Horus reticles in their new scopes. IMO their new glass is much better than the Nikon.

[BigJimCalhoun]

I went with a Nikon Monarch mildot yesterday. I thought I wanted a BDC reticle but learned that in the second focal plane, the BDC reticle is only calibrated at the maximum zoom. Since my intended use will include dark timber and shaded slopes, I suspect I will not always be able to use the full magnification at all times.

[longrange1947]

I would stay away from BDC reticles. They are too limiting and only work for a single round at nomimal atmospherics.

[longrange1947]

Your email address bounced my reply and you do no thave email turned on here on site. Check so that I can reply to your questons.

Sorry guys, slight hijack to get info to a shooter. :D

[SLVGW360]

LR,

PM inbound and I updated my email on this board as well. Apologies to all.

SLVGW360