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Scimitar
12-08-2008, 16:19
Very interesting article; I'm sure that most QPs are already inherently aware of this; would be interesting to see a study of USASF averages and the rest of the Army averages.

Interested on any thoughts from QPs

Scimitar


http://www.rhoyos.com/files/natural_killers.pdf

The Reaper
12-08-2008, 16:30
Sounds a lot like a Grossman piece.

TR

SFOC0173
12-22-2014, 18:08
Not sure if this is the same article, was unable to link to the article in the original post. This article was written by a Major David S. Pierson, US Army. He referenced Grossman five times in the footnotes.

https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/a80806fbebea8dd285257015006e1943/09613ff986b2a86885257599001505c1?OpenDocument

miclo18d
12-22-2014, 19:28
Not sure if this is the same article, was unable to link to the article in the original post. This article was written by a Major David S. Pierson, US Army. He referenced Grossman five times in the footnotes.

https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/a80806fbebea8dd285257015006e1943/09613ff986b2a86885257599001505c1?OpenDocument

From the article:the natural killer found in the US Army lacks social emotions, is a later son (not first-born), got into frequent fights as a child, enjoys contact sports, is from a middle or upper class background, is an extrovert, has above-average intelligence and a caustic sense of humor
I can react emotionally in social situations, never got into fights, wasn't really into contact sports (but didn't shy away from contact), and very much an introvert.

I was second born, middle class family, my sense of humor would be described as sarcaustic.

Above average intelligence is debatable. :D

Talked to an SF head shrinker and he said they looked for the "sociopath with morals". Someone who can kill (BAD guys), then have a beer and a laugh.

JJ_BPK
12-23-2014, 01:38
Talked to an SF head shrinker and he said they looked for the "sociopath with morals". Someone who can kill (BAD guys), then have a beer and a laugh.

I only hit 4 of seven traits, I like beer and sarcastic laughing.. :D

Sociopath w/morals,, Interesting tag line.. :munchin

Streck-Fu
12-23-2014, 05:49
..... lacks social emotions.....

I can't access the link (may be work filter) but what the hell is this supposed to mean?

And Sociopath with morals?

I am not sure I would label a person capable of and willing to kill someone that wants to kill him as a 'Sociopath' anything.....

miclo18d
12-23-2014, 06:20
I can't access the link (may be work filter) but what the hell is this supposed to mean?

And Sociopath with morals?

I am not sure I would label a person capable of and willing to kill someone that wants to kill him as a 'Sociopath' anything.....
"Sociopath with morals" see the quotations. That is a way to describe a person that can kill bad person and not be affected by the killing. Most sociopaths view killing as a means to their desires. They see no moral substance to it. A means to an end.

A drug dealer would be a good example. They have enacted they're own code and someone that deals in their territory can be killed. They don't think twice about it and are very proud of their "wins" record.

Yes, we do what we have to, but why a lower incidence of PTSD among SF? Because we did what we think is right to complete the mission or save our comrades, or ourselves, or our indigs. But we don't go around killing anyone we want for any reason we perceive. And we don't give a rats ass about filling body bags with undesirables as long as we have Freed the Oppressed!

"Sociopath....with morals"

Streck-Fu
12-23-2014, 07:01
But we don't go around killing anyone we want for any reason we perceive.

Which is why it seems "Sociopath with morals" is a conceptual oxymoron. I'm no shrink but the definition of Sociopath includes a lack of moral responsibility. Therefore, qualifying Sociopath to add morals negates the very trait that defines the condition.


Is there not a better term for people that can rationalize killing when necessary according to a set of ethical standards that benefit a society?

1stindoor
12-23-2014, 07:23
...Is there not a better term for people that can rationalize killing when necessary according to a set of ethical standards that benefit a society?

Killin' those that needed killin'

Streck-Fu
12-23-2014, 07:47
Killin' those that needed killin'

I'm good with it.... :lifter

JJ_BPK
12-23-2014, 08:51
Is there not a better term for people that can rationalize killing when necessary according to a set of ethical standards that benefit a society?



The benefit to society is not the word smithing of phrases,
it is the deed that society refuses to acknowledge that the need exist
and for strong people to do what society will not..

:munchin

atticus finch
12-23-2014, 10:10
Which is why it seems "Sociopath with morals" is a conceptual oxymoron. I'm no shrink but the definition of Sociopath includes a lack of moral responsibility. Therefore, qualifying Sociopath to add morals negates the very trait that defines the condition.


Is there not a better term for people that can rationalize killing when necessary according to a set of ethical standards that benefit a society?

As it applies to the discussion here yes, it'd be called a soldier, serving in the military.
I remember my own time in the military and I used to hear some of the conversations about combat & killing. People talking along the same lines and the same issues of it.
It never bothered me, it is the job of the military to do such things & back in my day I knew who the bad guys were, what they stood for relative to what I stood for, and it was simple. Them or us.
Perhaps in laymens terms it would be 'cold-blooded' as opposed to being 'mean'. Sociopaths are mean in that they genuinely do derive pleasure from thier wrongful behavior and have no moral restriction on thier behavior. Cold-blooded people don't, they do what they know has to be done with no emotional attachment, with the moral restriction being only when they know it's the right thing to do.

JJDT
12-23-2014, 10:35
Is there not a better term for people that can rationalize killing when necessary according to a set of ethical standards that benefit a society?


'Warrior'.

These studies are interesting and it's a worthy thing to study the mindset of those who kill as part of their job and lifestyle; but in the end they are classifying and studying what we have always known as the 'warrior class'; a class we as men trying our best to be part of it's legacy have idealized, admired, honored, and tried our best to carry on the traditions of.

A warrior doesn't need a psychiatrist to explain why we fight, kill, cheerfully celebrate our (violent) victories and darkly lament our equally violent defeats and losses. A psychiatrist on the other hand needs a plethora of research, statistics, variables, etc. to even come close to fathoming a tiny amount of the mind of a warrior.

That's were these studies come in, it's impossible to completely explain if you are part of it and it's impossible to understand if you are not part of it.



DISCLAIMER: I am obviously not a QP but though we might be vastly different in many ways, we also share common bonds. This is something I would imagine is common amongst all those who go to war with the express duty to fight.

Barbarian
12-23-2014, 11:20
Killing is a natural part of life on Earth. Kill to eat, kill to protect, kill to live. Those who cannot do so are simply less capable than those who can.

NurseTim
12-23-2014, 11:41
If I may ask a question.

Has there been an instance when someone has qualified, but when the time came, they could not pull the trigger, not due to fear, due to conscience? Or does selection weed them out so effectively that it has never come up?

miclo18d
12-23-2014, 17:20
If I may ask a question.

Has there been an instance when someone has qualified, but when the time came, they could not pull the trigger, not due to fear, due to conscience? Or does selection weed them out so effectively that it has never come up?
I can't answer your question directly as asked, but when I jumped into Panama (3/75th), we had a guy in my platoon that was "injured" during the jump (I think he got a d-bag across his face, I only saw some scratches on his face) that feigned as if he was extremely injured and couldn't fight. Obviously, Ranger Batt was physical and at that time there was no psych eval to go through and RIP was not like SFAS and the Q.

He was gone by end of D+1, Black Chinook with the Headless Loadmaster came and disappeared him.

Was it fear or did he object, or both? Either way, it is the same result. BTW, this person was a big shit talker about how bad azz he was.

Team Sergeant
12-23-2014, 20:09
I know of an SF'er that could not face the battlefield. He was sent to the B-team and left SF shortly afterwards. He was no shit talker, very quiet guy.

Flagg
12-23-2014, 22:41
Talked to an SF head shrinker and he said they looked for the "sociopath with morals". Someone who can kill (BAD guys), then have a beer and a laugh.

Love it.

I'm going to ask the Army psych I know well about that one and see where the conversation goes.

Too bad this thread isn't a week or so older and I could have asked her straight away.

And I can't seem to find the article I just read that roughly equated to" "a bit of sociopathy can be a good thing".

Guy
12-24-2014, 07:12
When I go home people'll ask me, "Hey Hoot, why do you do it man? What, you some kinda war junkie?" You know what I'll say? I won't say a goddamn word. Why? They won't understand. They won't understand why we do it. They won't understand that it's about the men next to you, and that's it. That's all it is.

Y'know what I think? Don't really matter what I think. Once that first bullet goes past your head, politics and all that shit just goes right out the window.

See you're thinking. Don't. 'Cause Sergeant, you can't control who gets hit or who doesn't or who falls out of a chopper or why. It ain't up to you. It's just war.

Take care.

PRB
12-24-2014, 17:38
I don't like the OP title....
Killing, to me, is killing an unarmed person...
Fighting, as we fight, is against an armed foe...each has a chance to win/lose.
Why should one agonize over a fight like that, or have an issue with it.

Team Sergeant
12-24-2014, 17:43
I don't like the OP title....
Killing, to me, is killing an unarmed person...
Fighting, as we fight, is against an armed foe...each has a chance to win/lose.
Why should one agonize over a fight like that, or have an issue with it.

Not the way I saw it during Desert Storm. We afforded them a chance to surrender and told them they had no chance to win.....;) The smart ones surrendered.

I like the like in General Patton's speech, We make them "die for their country and their cause."

PRB
12-25-2014, 11:49
Not the way I saw it during Desert Storm. We afforded them a chance to surrender and told them they had no chance to win.....;) The smart ones surrendered.

I like the like in General Patton's speech, We make them "die for their country and their cause."

Yeah, but you get my point....when you 'uniform up' the game is on and you know it.
The term Killing has a connotation of more than that.
Kids ask "Have you ever killed anyone?"
I respond 'No, but I've whacked a guy trying to whack me".

WarriorDiplomat
12-26-2014, 10:28
Sounds a lot like a Grossman piece.

TR

Grossman is a piece of work. His books have been shown to be stolen ideas, opinions and ideas he makes alot of assumptions with biased research he has begged, borrowed and stolen from others with made up data. Not a fan of his generalizations and his simple psychological conclusions. His implications are we all kill because of the conditioning without real discretion. Are there or were there a lot of cold blooded killers in SF during GWOT I have no doubt. Are there those who seem to avoid this and are not killers in that sense...I have no doubt. Understand like all soldiers there are killers and then there is a murderer and IMO there is a difference. A lot of soldiers get bloodlust in battle and sometimes during the entire tour. I personally am not put off by the act of killing but I am not a murderer I have a strong Christian belief as to why I fight.

There are quite a few soldiers who would tell anyone out of their inner circle about how much they enjoy killing. These same guys will say it to anyone about how much of a killer they were and can't wait to kill again there next deployment. This is either a psychotic person or B.S., who cannot quit talking about killing or their desire to kill again there fascination with the act of killing is abnormal. I don't put much stock in story tellers who see to focus on the act more like they were traumatized by the image. Then there are the matters of fact guys in the Army who don't engage in 1 ups man ship with others they simply talk about a mission and only mention killing as PART of the mission but no real detail. As in " So my squad entered the courtyard and I went left around the corner and shot two guys and then we cleared the house and found the cache of bomb building material and shut down a terrorist MSS.". No stories of the pink mist or death throws or blood or any other gory details they have seen in Hollywood dramas that type is IMHO a sociopath. No craving to kill or any other stupidity you hear some talk about and if they talk about going back overseas to kill terrorists it is to eliminate bad guys NOT kill people there is a difference.

Does SF have more than its share of sociopaths who are willing to kill.....perhaps, I am sure that there is a perception about us, it seems implied that those types would be drawn to us. But understand that the goal of SF is not killing it is to topple a government or regime and killing is part of that. In our job our guys can’t get hung up on the act of killing enemy we have to analyze and assess the expected outcomes of everything we do so that we can anticipate the psychological effects on the campaign. I would say the kinetic units within SOF may have a higher percentage give their mission and purpose.

miclo18d
12-26-2014, 11:49
Love it.

I'm going to ask the Army psych I know well about that one and see where the conversation goes.

Too bad this thread isn't a week or so older and I could have asked her straight away.

And I can't seem to find the article I just read that roughly equated to" "a bit of sociopathy can be a good thing".
The exact conversation had to do with one of the psych's interns doing the target graphs for SF psych evals. The intern after completing one freaked out as she saw the pattern of a sociopath. He told her yes, but we look at this part over here that shows what we are looking for (some other part of the graph).

My understanding was that other part of the graph, was what made us different that the "average sociopath", the morals part.

I look at killing much like Warrior Diplomat. I look at it through 2 lenses. 1. do what ever it takes to bring my team mates home and 2. As long as that fits into my moral obligation to my God and Savior. Killing is not murder. Killing is what you do when you are protecting your home, your property, your team mates from someone trying to do you harm, armed with a gun or an IED, or even talking on a radio planning my demise.

Murder is what you do when someone doesn't have the means to further harm you and you consciously, through anger, malice, jealousy, envy, revenge, politics, peer pressure, or power (I'm sure there are other reasons) end their life.

I talked to a guy once that told me he would help bury bodies in the impact area for a team mate if asked. I thought that went a bit far for me. I never looked at him the same again. I'm sorry but if a team mate or friend murdered someone, I couldn't stand by or help in that. I would more so convince them to come clean. Or if given the chance try to talk them out of the act to begin with.

It comes down to this for me: Do what you think your soul can handle.

craigepo
12-26-2014, 14:16
Killing is not murder. Killing is what you do when you are protecting your home, your property, your team mates from someone trying to do you harm, armed with a gun or an IED, or even talking on a radio planning my demise.

Murder is what you do when someone doesn't have the means to further harm you and you consciously, through anger, malice, jealousy, envy, revenge, politics, peer pressure, or power (I'm sure there are other reasons) end their life.



I was doing some studying a few weeks ago. A scholar opined that the King James Bible mistranslated a line of the Ten Commandments. According to the scholar, "Thou shalt not kill" should have translated to "Thou shall not murder", but the two words had little to any distinction in old English at the time of the King James translation. The gulf between the words today is rather large.

Scimitar
12-26-2014, 21:28
I was doing some studying a few weeks ago. A scholar opined that the King James Bible mistranslated a line of the Ten Commandments. According to the scholar, "Thou shalt not kill" should have translated to "Thou shall not murder", but the two words had little to any distinction in old English at the time of the King James translation. The gulf between the words today is rather large.

Couldn't agree more...

Ask any Rabbi, and they're not confused.

Murder = Ratsach (Hebrew)
Kill = Harag (Hebrew)

Exodus 20:13 = Thou shall not "Ratsach"

The KJV got it wrong because there was still some vagueness on ancient Hebrew meaning, until the Dead See Scrolls where discovered in the decade following WWII.

...just saying ;)

S

Sigaba
12-27-2014, 03:11
Which is why it seems "Sociopath with morals" is a conceptual oxymoron. I'm no shrink but the definition of Sociopath includes a lack of moral responsibility. Therefore, qualifying Sociopath to add morals negates the very trait that defines the condition.?Streck,

IMO, you are asking great questions.

However, in your haste, you may be reducing the complex diagnostic criteria of anti social personality disorder as offered in DSM-V to a single sub criterion and also forgetting that the disorder may exist as a continuum <<LINK (http://www.theravive.com/therapedia/Antisocial-Personality-Disorder-DSM--5-301.7-%28F60.2%29)>>.

The Reaper
12-27-2014, 08:27
Does anyone perceive any of the the QPs on this forum to be sociopaths or killers?

And yet you never know what the people you meet are thinking or capable of.

Even the ones that seem perfectly normal.

TR

MR2
12-27-2014, 08:39
Be Polite, be Professional, be Prepared.

Team Sergeant
12-27-2014, 12:42
Does anyone perceive any of the the QPs on this forum to be sociopaths or killers?

TR

Most folks on here have never met Guy..............:munchin

mark46th
12-27-2014, 16:27
A quaker would lay down the weapon, let you shoot the child and call it God's Will.

PatrickS
12-28-2014, 17:57
Everyone is a natural born killer if the right circumstances arise. Find The the most peace loving vegan hippie chic you can. Now hand her a deadly weapon and threaton her child and see how deadly she becomes.

Reminds me of some people's extremely annoying attitude à la "I could never kill someone!"

Quite a few folks are stating that as if it were a fact. It is however a statement that is unproven and should therefore be categorised under assumption/hope/wishful thinking.
A lot of these people will also remind everyone of the "fact", that unlike them, the majority of military personnel are "killing machines".


Judging one's decision making and actions in a scenario, that the self-proclaimed jugde has never encountered, is more than just a bit....well....nuts.


Once faced with previously unknown circumstances- they will of course "commit the act" and kill. But why not consider yourself morally superior while you can?

mugwump
12-28-2014, 18:22
Reminds me of some people's extremely annoying attitude à la "I could never kill someone!"

Quite a few folks are stating that as if it were a fact. It is however a statement that is unproven and should therefore be categorised under assumption/hope/wishful thinking.
A lot of these people will also remind everyone of the "fact", that unlike them, the majority of military personnel are "killing machines".


Judging one's decision making and actions in a scenario, that the self-proclaimed jugde has never encountered, is more than just a bit....well....nuts.


Once faced with previously unknown circumstances- they will of course "commit the act" and kill. But why not consider yourself morally superior while you can?

Pretty broad brush there. The Amish will watch their property stolen, barns burned, and daughters raped at their feet without raising a finger. They certainly wouldn't harm anyone in self-defense. Their philosophy is inexplicable to me but they are certainly among the most principled people I've ever met.

PatrickS
12-28-2014, 18:58
Pretty broad brush there. The Amish will watch their property stolen, barns burned, and daughters raped at their feet without raising a finger. They certainly wouldn't harm anyone in self-defense. Their philosophy is inexplicable to me but they are certainly among the most principled people I've ever met.


Would be interesting to know whether the Amish can be found in crime statistics.
If they aren't mentioned anywhere- I'd be stunned.

Regardless of their belief, we're talking about human beings. A certain belief might be able to define a person, I would however doubt that it could erode one's survival instinct.

mugwump
12-28-2014, 19:39
Would be interesting to know whether the Amish can be found in crime statistics.
If they aren't mentioned anywhere- I'd be stunned.

Regardless of their belief, we're talking about human beings. A certain belief might be able to define a person, I would however doubt that it could erode one's survival instinct.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but there are countless examples of Amish and Mennonites refusing to defend themselves and dying in the defense of their principles.

The Amish are a magnet for the brand of dirtbag that preys on the defenseless. They rarely appear in crime statistics because they don't report the crimes. They consider the court system to be "polluting" and a nexus of state violence. It was considered a breakthrough in Wisconsin when one John Vieth was convicted, with the grudging cooperation of the local Amish, for the kidnapping and rape of a 15 yo Amish girl. The trial brought to light numerous unreported assaults, buggy burnings, drive-by shootings, etc etc.

Sorry for the hijack, gents.

craigepo
12-28-2014, 19:51
Pretty broad brush there. The Amish will watch their property stolen, barns burned, and daughters raped at their feet without raising a finger. They certainly wouldn't harm anyone in self-defense. Their philosophy is inexplicable to me but they are certainly among the most principled people I've ever met.

There are some Amish in this area, some are builders. My late father was not a fan. His take was that if they won't pick up a rifle and defend the country, or at least register for the draft, they shouldn't be able to compete against guys who did.

The area Amish won't register for the draft, won't serve jury duty. They poach unceasingly, to the point where there have been some rather tense stand-offs with neighbors.

It's easy for the Amish to be "principled" when they have better men protecting them, and running the society that allows their freedom.

Sigaba
12-28-2014, 20:55
Reminds me of some people's extremely annoying attitude à la "I could never kill someone!"

Quite a few folks are stating that as if it were a fact. It is however a statement that is unproven and should therefore be categorised under assumption/hope/wishful thinking.
A lot of these people will also remind everyone of the "fact", that unlike them, the majority of military personnel are "killing machines".


Judging one's decision making and actions in a scenario, that the self-proclaimed jugde has never encountered, is more than just a bit....well....nuts.


Once faced with previously unknown circumstances- they will of course "commit the act" and kill. But why not consider yourself morally superior while you can?Is it intellectually sustainable to challenge a constellation of assumptions and labeling them as "wishful thinking" and "nuts" based upon another constellation of assumptions about human nature and survival instinct?

mugwump
12-28-2014, 23:12
It's easy for the Amish to be "principled" when they have better men protecting them, and running the society that allows their freedom.

I understand your position. It's a fairly common one around the farmstead. I've found them to be ruthless bargainers, brilliant tinkerers, and good neighbors to have around in a pinch. The local Sheriff wishes they'd allow him to protect them; they refuse to summon help or report victimization.

I agree with you that they aren't fully engaged citizens. But they're good stewards of the land, work their asses off, pay their taxes on time, and consume virtually no county services. I'd exchange a thousand of the voucher-carrying public housing crew and gangbanger-wannabes for more Amish, that's for sure.

PatrickS
12-29-2014, 01:38
Is it intellectually sustainable to challenge a constellation of assumptions and labeling them as "wishful thinking" and "nuts" based upon another constellation of assumptions about human nature and survival instinct?


Depends on whether one considers the influence of circumstances and instincts on human behaviour/ their significance to be a fact, or views it as an assumption that they dictate how one behaves in a live-or-die situation.

I was solely referring to "take a life or lose yours" scenarios. I thought the quote from the post I replied to would imply that. My apologies if that wasn't the case.

cbtengr
12-29-2014, 19:13
I understand your position. It's a fairly common one around the farmstead. I've found them to be ruthless bargainers, brilliant tinkerers, and good neighbors to have around in a pinch. The local Sheriff wishes they'd allow him to protect them; they refuse to summon help or report victimization.

I agree with you that they aren't fully engaged citizens. But they're good stewards of the land, work their asses off, pay their taxes on time, and consume virtually no county services. I'd exchange a thousand of the voucher-carrying public housing crew and gangbanger-wannabes for more Amish, that's for sure.

I am enjoying everyone's take on the Amish in their respective area's. I live amongst the largest population of Amish West of the Mississippi River, and for the most part I agree with your assessment of them except for the being good stewards of the land. Their farming methods dictate that they till the ground to dust much like all farmers did 40-50 years ago, their farms are also without a doubt the trashiest junk ridden farms in the area but they are without a doubt hard working individuals and a lot hardier than I will ever be.

Guy
01-02-2015, 11:35
Most folks on here have never met Guy..............:munchinOnly liberals/democrats (Congressional Black Caucus, NAACP and/or et al) would refer to me a sociopath or killer....:p

I have a patch that said: DO NO HARM; DO KNOW HARM :cool:

BTW....my family are going out to lunch and they say...

Guy, make sure you lock the doors...

Me: Break up in here if you want; the wife will be buying new carpet.:eek:

Stay safe.

Team Sergeant
01-04-2015, 19:05
Only liberals/democrats (Congressional Black Caucus, NAACP and/or et al) would refer to me a sociopath or killer....:p

I have a patch that said: DO NO HARM; DO KNOW HARM :cool:

BTW....my family are going out to lunch and they say...

Guy, make sure you lock the doors...

Me: Break up in here if you want; the wife will be buying new carpet.

Stay safe.

;)

And you can also tell them your SF friends are only a phone call away.....;)

Joker
01-04-2015, 21:12
;)

And you can also tell them your SF friends are only a phone call away.....;)

With e-tools :D

x SF med
01-05-2015, 02:59
With e-tools :D

...and asking how deep do you want the hole, and what kind of beer do you want after?

x SF med
01-05-2015, 03:01
Good god man. Rent a backhoe and do it right. You can dig deeper in less time. No sense in sweating. Just the opinion of an old CA guy. :D

a backhoe leaves tracks and does not get where you need to in order to truly cache the item....

Joker
01-05-2015, 04:24
a backhoe leaves tracks and does not get where you need to in order to truly cache the item....

...and we are the Quite guys, unlike you CA types :p

Team Sergeant
01-05-2015, 09:59
Good god man. Rent a backhoe and do it right. You can dig deeper in less time. No sense in sweating. Just the opinion of an old CA guy. :D

E-tools don't leave a traceable electronic credit card transaction or receipt.

Have they found Jimmy Hoffa yet? :munchin

mark46th
01-05-2015, 10:22
Jimmy 'The Weasel' Fratiano told 60 Minutes that Hoffa was a hubcap on a Buick...