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Richard
11-16-2008, 17:07
Hang on to your money belts. The times they are a changing.

Richard :munchin

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/articles/2008/11/10/pentagon_board_says_cuts_essential/

Pentagon board says cuts essential
Tells Obama to slash large weapons programs
Bryan Bender, Globe Staff
November 10, 2008

WASHINGTON - A senior Pentagon advisory group, in a series of bluntly worded briefings, is warning President-elect Barack Obama that the Defense Department's current budget is "not sustainable," and he must scale back or eliminate some of the military's most prized weapons programs.

The briefings were prepared by the Defense Business Board, an internal management oversight body. It contends that the nation's recent financial crisis makes it imperative that the Pentagon and Congress slash some of the nation's most costly and troubled weapons to ensure they can finance the military's most pressing priorities.

Those include rebuilding ground forces battered by multiple tours to Iraq and Afghanistan and expanding the ranks to wage the war on terrorism.

"Business as usual is no longer an option," according to one of the internal briefings prepared in late October for the presidential transition, copies of which were provided to the Globe. "The current and future fiscal environments facing the department demand bold action."

The briefings do not specify which programs should be cut, but defense analysts say that prime targets would probably include the new F-35 fight er jet, a series of Navy ship programs, and a massive Army project to build a new generation of ground combat vehicles, all of which have been skyrocketing in cost and suffering long development delays.

Such cuts would affect the New England economy. General Dynamics builds warships and submarines in Maine and Connecticut, while Raytheon, Massachusetts' largest employer, is involved in numerous weapons programs from ships to missile defenses and satellites.

Pentagon insiders and defense budget specialists say the Pentagon has been on a largely unchecked spending spree since 2001 that will prove politically difficult to curtail but nevertheless must be reined in.

"The forces arrayed against terminating defense programs are today so powerful that if you try to do that it will be like the British Army at the Somme in World War I," said Winslow Wheeler, director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the liberal Center for Defense Information in Washington. "You will just get mowed down by the defense industry and military services' machine guns."

Since the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, funding has grown for both the annual defense budget and emergency spending for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The latest Pentagon budget, for the fiscal year that began Oct. 1, is an estimated $512 billion, not including more than $800 billion in additional war spending that has been allotted since 2001.

But a series of forces are now at play that make such large expenditures untenable, according to the Defense Business Board, the Pentagon oversight group, which includes about 20 private sector executives appointed by the secretary of defense.

The board, which meets at least four times a year, has a full-time staff and is an official government body. Because the board's report has not been made public, a Pentagon spokesman would not comment on it.

One factor is historical. Since the end of World War II there have a been four periods of significant increases in US defense spending and all were followed by significant decreases in funding from Congress, the group says.

Added pressure on the Pentagon budget comes from what the briefing calls "fiscal constraint in a tough economy" that is saddled with rising deficits and growing political support for increased government spending in other areas.

"We are all acutely aware there is a financial crisis going on," said a senior defense official closely involved in the transition process.

Exacerbating the problem, according to the advisory group, are the rising costs of military personnel, their healthcare, and overhead. The documents estimate that more than half the annual defense budget now goes to "people costs," including $60 billion a year for the healthcare of service members and retirees.

They will almost certainly grow, even with a reduction in US troops in Iraq, given that the Pentagon has said it will increase ground forces by more than 70,000 troops over the next few years.

That leaves dozens of weapons systems and other equipment under development as prime areas for cost-savings, according to Steven Kosiak, vice president of budget studies at the nonpartisan Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments in Washington.

"The areas most likely to get cut are acquisition and procurement," Kosiak said. "As long as the administration is committed to increasing troop strength you have to pay those people costs, and there is not a lot of flexibility when it comes to benefits."

A recent analysis by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, assessed the Pentagon's 95 largest weapons programs and found that as of March 2008 they had collectively increased in cost by nearly $300 billion over initial estimates.

"None had proceeded through development while meeting the best-practice standards for mature technologies, stable design, and mature production processes all prerequisites for achieving planned cost and schedule outcomes," the GAO said in documents published last week to help guide the presidential transition.

It added: "Over the next five years, [the Defense Department] expects to invest more than $357 billion on major defense acquisition programs. Much of this investment will be used to address cost overruns rooted in poor planning, execution, and oversight."

All the branches of the military are in a similar situation. The Army plans to invest an estimated $160 billion in the coming years on a set of new combat vehicles collectively known as the Future Combat System. But their capabilities "are still early in development and have not yet been demonstrated," according to GAO.

The Navy, meanwhile, has continued to bust its budget for shipbuilding. The service's six most recent new ship designs have experienced cumulative cost growth of $2.4 billion over original estimates, according to GAO. Their delivery has also been delayed, on average, by 97 months.

The Air Force's portfolio for new equipment, meanwhile, "will demand unprecedented levels of funding," according to GAO's transition materials. Its development costs have increased nearly 50 percent above original estimates and eight separate programs have had to report cost breaches to Congress.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - designed for the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps and the most costly aircraft procurement effort in history - "faces considerable risks stemming from its decision to reduce test assets and the flight-test program to pay for development and manufacturing cost increases," according to the GAO.

Other programs suffering from big cost increases and delays include space systems such as satellites and the national missile defense system, the largest research and development program on the Pentagon's books.

Together these programs constitute a military crisis in their own right, according to the internal Pentagon documents.

The Pentagon, one document states, "cannot reset the current force, modernize and transform in all portfolios at the same time. Choices must be made across capabilities and within systems to deliver capability at known prices within a specific period of time."

And a few cuts here or there won't do the trick, they add. "Taking cuts at the margin won't work this time, nor will pushing things off to later years."

nmap
11-16-2008, 17:38
I don't think the defense cuts are regarded as a done deal yet.

The chart at the link compares the SP 500 with the Spade Defense Index (in Army Green :D ). Notice that the SP 500 is, for now, weaker than the defense index. So, the defense stocks aren't doing any worse than the general market - though that is cold comfort.

LINK (http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$DXS&p=W&b=5&g=0&id=p90249665702)

The index components are listed at: LINK (http://www.spadeindex.com/components.html)

I admit I would be surprised if the defense budget didn't get cut.

Puertoland
11-17-2008, 00:09
I say we cut Nasa's budget before we start cutting the military's.

The more immediate need should take priority.

504PIR
11-17-2008, 02:16
No doubt we have "fat" in the defense budget. But that budget(not sure offhand but I think less than 5%) is pretty small compared to the many entitlement programs that the US Govt offers,(Welfare, Food Stamps,etc) & Social Security.

At least with DOD we get something that goes "BANG".

I wouldn't want to cut NASA ether. The US gets allot out of that organization. Besides somebody has to build the "Deathstar"..LOL!

Soft Target
11-17-2008, 08:22
While I realize "politics are politics", I have always had a problem sending military into harm's way and then deny them every technological advantage. I would ask how they sleep at night. Then I see who they are and am sure they are sleeping quite well in thier mal-intended bliss.

Defender968
11-17-2008, 09:39
While I realize "politics are politics", I have always had a problem sending military into harm's way and then deny them every technological advantage. I would ask how they sleep at night. Then I see who they are and am sure they are sleeping quite well in thier mal-intended bliss.

Soft Target I completely agree with you, however I can tell you from personal experience that at least in the AF there is a tremendous amount of "waste" that could be cut out of the budget.

The problem in my estimation is that B0 and his crew don't have the experience or judgment to make the cuts with a scalpel where they should be made, instead I think they will come in with a hatchet like Barny "Fat Moron" Frank wants and will cut deeply across the board which in turn will hollow out our military. Barny and the rest of the Dims may say they support the troops and the military but the reality is they don't. They just want to raid our budget and tell us to just make due, most remember the do more with less days, that's what we're in for with this new congress/senate/POTUS, after all they all think we're beneath them. Anyone who doesn't think so, think back to what Sen Kerry said about us being stuck in Iraq, that's how the Dims view military members. The politicians and especially the Dims see the Military as a place to go if you can't do anything else, they don't understand that to a great many it's a calling, not a place to hide out and just get by.

In any case if the powers that be would look at the spending habits of the AF and I suspect the Navy as well they could find plenty of places to make cuts that I think would be sufficient. The problem is the AF has gotten used to getting everything it wants, and when it doesn't, they lobby congress for more money, and often times they get it. The AF pisses away more money than most people can even comprehend while letting the truly important things go by the wayside. An example would be the purchase of the Osprey, which was an aircraft without a mission, we have spent Billions on that POS which has very limited unique capabilities, with significant unique disadvantages IMO while our Tanker fleet, which is the backbone of strategic airlift, US military mobility, and critical to our ability to rapidly project force on the global stage, has either already degraded or will be degraded by the time a replacement is fielded and acquired to near catastrophic levels, all because the AF always thinks it will get more money so they can throw it away on any and all the toys it wants. And that doesn't even consider the O&M budget that is so bloated they tear down perfectly good buildings to build newer prettier ones because they've got to spend the money, and the AF generals like new buildings. It's ludicrous, so IMHO before they cut dollar 1 from the Marines or Army budget the AF needs to stop spending money like drunken trust fund children and come back to reality. The AF brings some great abilities to the fight don’t get me wrong, but they can’t keep putting a 50 inch flat screen TV on every wall, there simply isn’t the money to support it, and for every 50 inch they purchase someone somewhere in the military is having to do without and most often IMO it's those who are actually in harms way. The AF needs to understand that we all draw funds from the same pot of money, and while the pot is big, it’s not bottomless.

Just my .02.

afchic
11-17-2008, 11:07
I agree wholeheartedly the AF needs to take a good look at some of its programs. It chaps my hide to no end that "the corporate AF" thought that it could cut 40,000 personnel and then take that cost savings and buy more F-22s with it, even when they were told by DoD that money would be shifted to the Army and Marine Corps personnel funds.

I just about vomited when I had a captain that met the separation board in 2006, while he was deployed to Afghanistan. He was told, thank you very much for your time in the AF but we no longer need you. BUT..... you are on a 15 month rotation with the Army (he was only in his first 2 months there) and you will finish out your deployment and then you have 30 days to get your affairs in order before you will be shown the door. And oh by the way, he was a loggie, who at this time is one of the AFSCs that is the most highly tasked in the AF.

God forbid the AF have separation boards for the pilots. Now there is a power point briefing going around the hallowed halls of the Pentagon talking about how badly the pilot community has it. If you could see "how bad they have it" you would want to vomit too. Can you say mismanagement?

To say that I had no problem with Gen Moseley getting fired would be an understatement.

But Congress has a huge part to play in this deal. If they didn't want the toys there wouldn't be toys. Tell me again why there are so many C-130Js being made that the Air Force has no need for? Whoever came up with the development plan for the C-17 is a genius. There are parts for that aircraft made practically in every district in the US. Kind of hard for Congress to cut a program that effects their own districts.

But there are other programs that are important that need to be kept on track. As much as everyone complains about the Raptor, it is needed when your F-15s have their wings falling off of them. They may not be essential to this particular war, but they will be needed in the future. But then again they will be pretty irrelevant if we don't get a new tanker, and soon.

Defender968
11-17-2008, 17:40
As much as everyone complains about the Raptor, it is needed when your F-15s have their wings falling off of them. They may not be essential to this particular war, but they will be needed in the future. But then again they will be pretty irrelevant if we don't get a new tanker, and soon.

Completely couldn't agree more, we need the F-22s, but a new tanker is a deal breaker the whole show will come screeching to a halt without them. If they would just cut out crap like this;

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/07/the_air_forces_use_of.html

not to mention the white jet fleet, if they would just cut back they might be able to pay for all those extra people, and maybe a few extra jets. Achic you probably know better than most how much money we burn on C-21s and the like for DV transport. The overwhelming problem is that the AF is run by guys whose sole qualification for command is that they wear the universal management badge, and can make the world get smaller or bigger by pulling back or pushing forward on a stick, they haven't the foggiest idea by far and large about the larger military world, or what their part in it is. If they had the slightest clue things like DV pods and C-21's would cease to exist.

I agree that congress has a role in how the AF spends money, however the AF has a huge lobbying organization that pushes....hard....for more money....which I have a serious issue with, not to mention congresses involvement in procurement which leads to things like the Osprey, but that's a whole bigger issue that I'm not even going to get into in this thread.

afchic
11-17-2008, 19:11
Completely couldn't agree more, we need the F-22s, but a new tanker is a deal breaker the whole show will come screeching to a halt without them. If they would just cut out crap like this;

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/07/the_air_forces_use_of.html

not to mention the white jet fleet, if they would just cut back they might be able to pay for all those extra people, and maybe a few extra jets. Achic you probably know better than most how much money we burn on C-21s and the like for DV transport. The overwhelming problem is that the AF is run by guys whose sole qualification for command is that they wear the universal management badge, and can make the world get smaller or bigger by pulling back or pushing forward on a stick, they haven't the foggiest idea by far and large about the larger military world, or what their part in it is. If they had the slightest clue things like DV pods and C-21's would cease to exist.

I agree that congress has a role in how the AF spends money, however the AF has a huge lobbying organization that pushes....hard....for more money....which I have a serious issue with, not to mention congresses involvement in procurement which leads to things like the Osprey, but that's a whole bigger issue that I'm not even going to get into in this thread.

Oh lord I could go on about this forever:p You are 100% correct on the universal management badge community. Take for instance the fact that I am now at IDE with a huge number of pilots, all of them great individuals in their own right. We have had this conversation quite a few times, and at least with this group they are willing to listen. I started out my career as an Admin officer, who then did some time in personnel before those two career field merged and the AF (thank GOD) gave the opportunity to cross train.

As a 2nd Lt I worked in the CVI division where I was in charge of the base Exercise Evaluation Team, as well as getting the base ready for an ORI, an NSI, an numerous other inspections, as well as being one of the wing protocol officers where I was in OIC of 5 individuals.

As a 1st Lt I was the section commander of a 720 person maintenance squadron which at the time was the largest squadron in the Air Force. I personally wrote EPRs for over 20 individuals, and was responsible for seeing all the others that needed to go the the commander or first shirt for signature, not to mention all the other administrivia that goes along with being in charge of an orderly room.

As a Capt I was personally responsible for a 90 million dollar Defense Level Repairable program for AF Space Command as well as doing the POMing for the maintenance for such systems as MILSTAR, GPS, Titan and Minuteman weapons systems, and the entire AF helicopter fleet.

Now my contemporaries who were in the flying community were doing what all of us as CGOs do, learning our jobs. And they were very good at it. But not one of them could tell me what an EPR looked like, or what a firewall 5 was. None of them had ever had to notify the family of an airman who took his own life. I had to do it 3 times in a couple of month time frame. None of them really knew what UCMJ action was, and were actually surprised that I was the signatory on a few Article 15's (for some of the small stuff).

Now that we are getting to the senior Maj, Lt Col level I have friends who are in the "support" business like myself who have been squadron commanders, sometimes twice. But as we continue in rank, those of us in support will continue on a path where we can, if we are lucky, be a Mission Support Group commander. But we will not ever COMMAND anything higher than a Group.

This is also the time when leadership begins to tell us being a commander is not about what AFSC you carry, but your leadership skills. So although pilots have not been brought up running a mobility processing line they can lead the people that do. But bring up the fact that a loggie should be able to do the same, say run an OSS, they all start backpeddling and say then it is about knowledge base. Hell I know more about Mission Capable Rates and what it takes to keep a jet flying than most pilots do but they will get the command.

I know it sounds like I am bitching about my lot in life, but all I have said previously brings me to why I believe we are having problems with our leadership. Not to say there aren't some slimbucket senior officers in my career field, but for the most part we grew up knowing that if we didn't get the job done right we were in for a hard ride. We learned early what it takes to lead people. Pilots may be very good at flying jets, but they did not get the same background the rest of us did as far as leadership goes. Additionally, they don't want to piss off their buddies, so they are willing to go along with stuff the rest of us would have called bullshit on long before.

Until we get leadership that begins to understand that a lot of the time what causes you to succeed is your subordinates, not your superiors. I have long understood the adage that if you take care of the troops, the troops will take care of you. Pilots never had to deal with troops, and therefore only had to deal with one another, and therefore have a tendency to not think about their subordinates.

I think we have begun a new era with Gen Schwartz at the helm. The mere fact that the fighter community was so up in arms about his nomination tells me that he is doing something right. He is a good man, and is going to do good things for us as AF Chief. We will see a new tanker deal come through under his leadership, because he understands what will happen without it. We will see programs being slashed, because he understands the guys on the ground may need the funds more than we do at this point in time. He has a great relationship with Congress, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was able to convince quite a few of them that their pet projects, although important, are not the MOST important thing right now.

Sorry for the diatribe, but that washingtonpost article has gotten under my skin since it first came out this fall.:mad:

Richard
11-18-2008, 06:33
I think we have begun a new era with Gen Schwartz at the helm. The mere fact that the fighter community was so up in arms about his nomination tells me that he is doing something right. He is a good man, and is going to do good things for us as AF Chief. We will see a new tanker deal come through under his leadership, because he understands what will happen without it. We will see programs being slashed, because he understands the guys on the ground may need the funds more than we do at this point in time. He has a great relationship with Congress, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was able to convince quite a few of them that their pet projects, although important, are not the MOST important thing right now.

Sounds like a "Hope and Change" campaign for the blue suiters. :p

Actually, his bio shows he has a lot of first-rate experience in joint multi-service operations (from the SO and C vs F or B side of the airfield for a change)** and I think the SECDEF is sending the message that this is how America wins its wars.

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7077

Richard's $.02 :munchin

SO - SpecOps
C - Cargo (transport)
F - Fighter
B - Bomber

afchic
11-18-2008, 09:41
Sounds like a "Hope and Change" campaign for the blue suiters. :p



I am sure alot of people are not happy about his hope and change message:p but having worked for the man directly for a year and a half I can tell you the difference between his hope and change and others we have seen recently is he actually knows what the hell he is talking about.:D

Team Sergeant
11-18-2008, 10:05
Change is coming to the AF in big way.... the F-22 or JSF will probably be the last "manned" fighters the US military ever purchases.

Soon the bombers will also be unmanned. Change is coming and I like it.;)

Some smart guy once told me that 2/3's of a fighter AC is to keep the human alive that is driving it. Remove the human and you can have a %100 more lethal AC at 1/3 the size and 25% of the cost.

Constant
11-18-2008, 11:56
Change is coming to the AF in big way.

I for one am glad for the change; I was thrilled to learn Secretary Donley had taken over the position as Secretary of the AF and the same with General Schwartz taking over CSAF. The AF has the mindset of "me me me" and it destroys unit cohesion as the small minded individuals back stab each other in order to gain favor with superiors. There are other issues, for an Air Force forum, that could be discussed in length; but hopefully the change that happens will bring us to a level of humility rather then a constant boasting of how great "I" am.