View Full Version : 18D Ethical Issue
Roguish Lawyer
06-04-2004, 15:21
TR made a comment elsewhere that raised this issue in my mind:
When an 18D beats the living shit out of someone, is he then required to administer medical treatment?
LOL
I suppose one could see this ethical dilemma one of two ways, there is either a "Conflict of Interest"; or the 18D is just providing himself with Job security.
NousDefionsDoc
06-04-2004, 15:40
WHAT THE HELL?
NousDefionsDoc
06-04-2004, 15:43
"Special Forces Medical Sergeant"
In my day, we were called Special Operations Medical Sergeants
Notice what comes first in both cases. Its not called Medical Special Operations Sergeant. Makin' Martyrs comes first.
Eagle5US
06-04-2004, 15:44
I once beat the shit out of our junior weapons guy (who BTW did the 10 month Ranger school) for going to a DIFFERENT teams medic to get meds before a 25K foot HALO drop...the other medic didn't now about the drop, I didn't know about his drugs...he had rebound congestion, blew a sinus, and for treatment I broke his nose in the hallway when I found out what he had done. No additional "care" was given-at least not by me.
On the more serious side...once you cross the objective, anyone left still alive you have to care for. So...on crossing said OBJ, unless you want them as patients, mae sure they are dead.
Similiarly, 18D's were prohibited from being the primary shooters (snipers) when I was in B 2/7.
PA
NousDefionsDoc
06-04-2004, 15:50
Similiarly, 18D's were prohibited from being the primary shooters (snipers) when I was in B 2/7.
Mmmm. That's a new one for me. I was the long gun (not very good at it - no patience), #1 rabbit, etc., the whole time I was in. think maybe they didn't consider me a real medic? Message there somewhere.:D
mffjm8509
06-04-2004, 16:16
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
"Special Forces Medical Sergeant"
In my day, we were called Special Operations Medical Sergeants
Notice what comes first in both cases. Its not called Medical Special Operations Sergeant. Makin' Martyrs comes first.
Well said!
All of my guys are counseld on being gunfighters first. MOS responsibilities come second in my book.
My 18D is my primary shooter on the Barrett SWS, and quite the scrapper. Occasoinaly, someone else has to patch him up
mp
The Reaper
06-04-2004, 16:50
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Mmmm. That's a new one for me. I was the long gun (not very good at it - no patience), #1 rabbit, etc., the whole time I was in. think maybe they didn't consider me a real medic? Message there somewhere.:D
Concur.
Charlie D. was one of the best shots on 753, and humped the long gun for them.
Must have been a more recent change.
Newbies!
TR
How in the hell do provide medical treatment, if you run out there and get shot also?
Self aid...
Buddy aid...
Then once the shooting stops...here we come!
Shooter first then we provide Tx.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
06-04-2004, 19:42
That is also news to me. Two of my best snipers were 18Ds. Sort of gave a whole new meaning to surgical precision.
Jack Moroney
mffjm8509
06-04-2004, 19:55
Originally posted by Guy
How in the hell do provide medical treatment, if you run out there and get shot also?
Then once the shooting stops...here we come!
Guy, I think I'm missing something.....
Do you really agree that an 18D should stay out of the fight unil aid is needed?
mp
NousDefionsDoc
06-04-2004, 20:00
I'd like to meet the man that could keep Guy out of a fight. LOL
mffjm8509
06-04-2004, 20:03
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I'd like to meet the man that could keep guy out of a fight. LOL
NDD,
I dont know Guy, but his posts here seem very level headed to me......
Thats why I think I missed something on that last post....
My medic will be fighting......I couldnt stop him if I wanted too....
Hell, he's fought me at more than one drunken team party....and thats exactly the kind of aggressiveness I want on my team no matter what MOS.
mp
The Reaper
06-04-2004, 20:04
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I'd like to meet the man that could keep guy out of a fight. LOL
No problems, he is a little guy, about 3'6", if I remember correctly.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
06-04-2004, 20:05
Originally posted by The Reaper
No problems, he is a little guy, about 3'6", if I remember correctly.
TR
That one's going to leave a mark. LOL
The Reaper
06-04-2004, 20:11
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
That one's going to leave a mark. LOL
Inside joke with Guy.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
06-04-2004, 20:14
I know. LOL
Eagle5US
06-04-2004, 21:52
wasn't trying to cause a stir with the medic no sniper thing fellas...just what CW3 Brit taught us and the same explaination followed once I was on a team. If I am dicked up...it won't be the first time.
Eagle
mffjm8509
06-04-2004, 22:01
Originally posted by Eagle5US
wasn't trying to cause a stir with the medic no sniper thing fellas...
Eagle
No such thing......good conversation
I, including myself have 6 snipers on my team. With 2 M24s, an M21, MK 14, and Barrett SWS......that leaves only one guy without the long gun......
I choose to the opportunity control 5 gunners rather than deny one of my guys the opportunity to shoot due to MOS....
Now, if we were talking machine guns........well........I gues I can alway trump them......
mp:lifter
Originally posted by mffjm8509
Guy, I think I'm missing something.....
Do you really agree that an 18D should stay out of the fight unil aid is needed?
mp
to come get YOU! Someone or something is getting SHOT!
That's why we teach...
Self aid, then...
Buddy aid and everyone carries a blowout kit.
If an 18D runs out there and gets hit,...who is there to provide medical attention? Especially when you only have one medical person assigned to a team of six guys.
mffjm8509
06-05-2004, 08:55
Right on, were on the same page....
I told you I thought I'd misunderstood your post
mp
Footmobile
06-05-2004, 11:43
How does being an 18D, in a gunfight, relate to the Law of Land Warfare with respects to medical personel? Do you automatically lose that status if you choose to, or are ordered to offensively engage the enemy?
Granted, not many of our enemies today play by the rules anyways, but how is that aspect of things handled?
Eagle5US
06-05-2004, 12:12
Originally posted by Footmobile
How does being an 18D, in a gunfight, relate to the Law of Land Warfare with respects to medical personel? Do you automatically lose that status if you choose to, or are ordered to offensively engage the enemy?
Granted, not many of our enemies today play by the rules anyways, but how is that aspect of things handled?
It has little relevance. Soldier First. We don't wear the red cross armband any longer or the "helmet target".
PA
Originally posted by Footmobile
How does being an 18D, in a gunfight, relate to the Law of Land Warfare with respects to medical personel? Do you automatically lose that status if you choose to, or are ordered to offensively engage the enemy?
Granted, not many of our enemies today play by the rules anyways, but how is that aspect of things handled?
Never gave it much thought, then again...never thought about it at all.
CPTAUSRET
06-08-2004, 08:35
Good thread, guys.
Terry
Furthermore, we don't get the "Med"category ID card.
SouthernDZ
02-16-2007, 15:53
When an 18D beats the living shit out of someone, is he then required to administer medical treatment?
There's no law against creating one's own graphic training aid for hip pocket training.
CPTAUSRET
02-16-2007, 16:35
Guys going to be in the fight, unless the other guy has a grill full of gold teeth!:D
<cussword cussword>You<cussword cussword> or I'll <cussword cussword> to <cussword cussword>..... <cussword cussword> <cussword cussword>
:D
Gotta love Guy-speak ;) :cool:
<cussword cussword>You<cussword cussword> or I'll <cussword cussword> to <cussword cussword>..... <cussword cussword> <cussword cussword>
:D
Gotta love Guy-speak ;) :cool:
I miss guy, He isn't as high profile around here as he used to be, Too bad.
I miss guy, He isn't as high profile around here as he used to be, Too bad.
Yeah.. he's been out doing fun stuff, I guess ;) He's one crazy Guy.... :p
SouthernDZ
02-17-2007, 10:11
Good and relevant stuff
Two years ago I was doing curriculum development with the 91W (now the 68W), so believe me, they're asking the same questions on the CF side.
Tactical Combat Casualty Care which is now mainstream thinking, teaches that the best treatment a combat medic can provide a wounded soldier who is still recieving "effective" enemy fire is to get on line and lay down suppressive fire in your lane. This is called the "care under fire phase" of TC3. As stated, SABA (self-aid/buddy-aid) will have to do until the medic can retrieve you and move behind cover (the "tactical field care" phase). TCCC also advocates that wounded (if lucid and otherwise able) should add their firepower to the fight; if not, play dead.
The 18D, being 18-series, is a combat arms MOS. They are not under the AMEDD (MEDCOM) proponent for this reason, they are USAJFKSWCS poroponent. They are as much a member of a fire team until a team member, striker or indig is wounded - even then, hold what you've got until you are no longer under effective fire.
Unfortunately, the law of land warfare has not caught up with this philosophy (the definition of war and combatant also needs an update).
sfbaby1982
02-17-2007, 11:29
I just went through TCCC while having the old basic training mentality fresh in my mind (yes i'm 18x). It was quite the contrast, logical vs. illogical and is by and large thought to be totally taboo by the DS's that I was under at the time. In fact, I proposed the idea of cover fire first, care second during basic. The answer NO WAY, you should pull as many men off of the fighting as was necessary to get that wounded man out of there. I persisted as any A type personality would (being that at the time I wasn't grasping the whole my rank supercedes logic thing) and was subsequently "smoked."
Please tell me that TC3 has started to make its way down to the lowest common denominator, because that could be of serious everyday use to some of those soldiers.
R
The Reaper
02-17-2007, 13:11
IMHO, the best thing that you can do for a casualty is to return fire until it is suppressed to some degree and it is safer to move him to cover or to treat him where he is. Obviously, that needs to be as soon as possible, like within a minute or two.
Two wounded require twice as many people, and if the medic is one of the wounded, they will both get worse care.
That also means that if you are hit, you need to make a quick assessment and keep shooting or quickly treat yourself and get back into the fight, as it might be a minute or two before we can get to you.
Just my .02, but I think well justified.
TR
SouthernDZ
02-17-2007, 14:19
sfbaby,
Naturally if someone was raised on the A-B-C method of caring for wounded, change comes hard. To your DS's this must seem like heresy (controlling bleeding before I've checked his airway; in other words, "C before A?")
This may be hard for you to hear, but here goes, "Your Drill Sergeants are behind current thinking and are completely wrong." While they are great at conducting PT, marching you to chow and rodding you off the line - they probably never fell out of an aircraft, fired a well-aimed shot in anger or watched a casualty die (yes they die, even when you do everything right and get a "go" at this station).
Until last month, the Institute for Surgical Research has been teaching TC3 to all SFODAs (and MARSOC teams) prior to deployment. This was done under R&D money. Now that TC3 is no longer research and is considered a mainstream concept, they are facilitating AARs with returning detachments, not just 18Ds, the whole team. Questions like, "what part of TC3 worked, didn't work; what equipment was useful, was the IFAK helpful?" etc.
Two things sfbaby:
1. You need to listen to what you are being told by the people who are training you to wear a green beanie; you might need to let go of some of what you were told in the past.
2. If you run out into an area that is recieving effective fire or a zeroed-in area, you will likely become part of the problem, not the solution.
You'll do.