View Full Version : Short M4/AR
Anyone have a link to the absolute shortest AR Carbine in .223 on the Market. I remember seeing one somewhere that didn't have any type of stock, just a buffer tube. We need something that we can carry concealed in a back pack. It has to be an AR Model. We cant purchase any other model of Weapon.
Team Sergeant
09-17-2008, 08:04
How about a 223 pistol?
Rock River Arms, good kit, I have one that is flawless.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=231
You beat me to it. Thats exactly what I was looking for. Only question, isn't it critical to use only a certain type of ammmo for reliability?
Team Sergeant
09-17-2008, 08:53
You beat me to it. Thats exactly what I was looking for. Only question, isn't it critical to use only a certain type of ammmo for reliability?
I've not shot one yet.
Drop an email to Rock River Arms and ask them....;)
The Reaper
09-17-2008, 09:26
Do not forget that as a government issue weapon, you can get the 7.5" upper on a regular FA lower, with a shorty collapsible buttstock, which makes for a much more accurate platform. You could also go with a side folding buttstock, like the Para FAL. It should add slightly to the bulk, but little to the overall length. A vertical foregrip, optical sight, and optional shorty suppressor would make a nice package, probably could find someone to make a nice, low-profile case for it.
The PDW concept, built around the M-4. MSTN could help you.
TR
I have a shorty 7.5 inch barrel in the pistol configuration. With a little practice using a sling to help brace it, it is pretty much like a SBR. It uses the regular AR sights, so as a pistol I am iffy on it. Maybe a flat top with halo sights would have been a better choice.
This is strictly for civilian enjoyment.
Would the Olympic Arms OA-98 (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=38&category_id=8&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37) or the OA-93 (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=37&category_id=8&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37)work? You can also get it with a folding stock OA-93 LE (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=65&category_id=11&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37)
It's an AR lower but no buffer tube or stock, 6.5 in barrel....
It6's a shame you HAVE TOO have a M16 based frame. The dam recoil tube does not make for a "short" package,, and it's not esthetically pleasing...
Here are several picture of AK's in pistol format.
1st pic is a composite of my three AK's, top: AMD-65 with 4" extension and ACE folder, 2nd: AMD-65 Pistol w/12" barrel, 10 rd mag, 3rd: Romanian "G" model.
2nd pic is a MP-5 & FAL 7.62x51 pistol,, Lot's of noise and kick
3rd pic is a AKS-74U, Krinkov
4th pic a very stylized AK, not mine, but very pretty?? AND yes that is a SKS folding bayo... :eek::eek:
AK's can be made to accept 5.56x45 ammo.
Right now I am hearing a lot about Wes at Mid South Tactical. He makes a 7" upper for Mil and LEO. Link is below.
http://www.mstn.biz/
steelcobra
09-17-2008, 12:23
DPMS also makes a "Kitty-Kat" AR.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/military/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=30
The Reaper
09-17-2008, 12:34
Right now I am hearing a lot about Wes at Mid South Tactical. He makes a 7" upper for Mil and LEO. Link is below.
http://www.mstn.biz/
Wes and Paul are great guys who are fanatics about their builds. They use some very high end parts in their uppers.
Wes is a member here (MSTN), I am sure that you could PM him with any questions and he would be glad to help.
TR
Wes uses the 7.5 Noveske barrel on his uppers.
There are some pics on AR15.com MTSN 7.5 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=134&t=162796)
Boomer-61
09-17-2008, 19:48
WWW.Bushmaster.com
Carbon 15 Type 21S Pistol
Carbon 15 9mm Carbine
Carbon 15 Model 4
Carbon 15 Type 97S Pistol
Carbon 15 Top Loading Carbine
Bushmaster SuperLight Carbines
I contacted Bushmaster about these 6 months ago when we had some break in's in our neighborhood. The robbers worked in teams of three and I'm not that good with my .45 so I thought 30 rounds of .223 would enhance my chances. Bushmaster was kind enough to email the balistics on these weapons which I have since misplaced. Interesting concept.
The Reaper
09-17-2008, 20:00
WWW.Bushmaster.com
Carbon 15 Type 21S Pistol
Carbon 15 9mm Carbine
Carbon 15 Model 4
Carbon 15 Type 97S Pistol
Carbon 15 Top Loading Carbine
Bushmaster SuperLight Carbines
I contacted Bushmaster about these 6 months ago when we had some break in's in our neighborhood. The robbers worked in teams of three and I'm not that good with my .45 so I thought 30 rounds of .223 would enhance my chances. Bushmaster was kind enough to email the balistics on these weapons which I have since misplaced. Interesting concept.
Extremely bad reputations for not running.
Caveat emptor.
If you cannot shoot a pistol well, I do not think 30 rounds of 5.56 is going to help do anything but endanger the people living within a mile or two of you. Might I suggest a long gun with a buttstock, that functions properly, or some good handgun instruction?
TR
Wes and Paul are great guys who are fanatics about their builds. They use some very high end parts in their uppers.
Wes is a member here (MSTN), I am sure that you could PM him with any questions and he would be glad to help.
TR
I am going to buy 15 from Wes and Paul. They come highly recommended. I just didn't feel good about buying one of these from a commercial Manufacturer.
Boomer-61
05-14-2010, 06:36
Kgoerz, Did you end up getting the pistol variant from Wes and Paul? If so, how do you like it now?
We ended up going with the Noveske 7.5". They worked great. Then they disbanded the Team.
the DPMS Kitty is a decent set up so I hear. It is 7inch as well.
the DPMS Kitty is a decent set up so I hear. It is 7inch as well.
Ive trained with the US Marshals SOG a few times and their entry guys were running the DPMS kitty. They seemed to work just fine, I don't recall a single hiccup across the line.
I do remember one of the guys putting a silencer on his gun and it ran through a 30 mag in what seemed like a second and a half. It really amped up the cyclic rate.
perdurabo
05-23-2010, 00:49
I do remember one of the guys putting a silencer on his gun and it ran through a 30 mag in what seemed like a second and a half. It really amped up the cyclic rate.
How/why? Any armchair physicists in the audience, feel free to jump in.
per
Methinks it is because of the increased back-pressure of some suppressor designs. Increased number of RPM is also observed in some SMGs when running a can. Heard on uzi.com that it is the design of the can (ie different cans increase back-pressure to different levels and hence the RPM)
The Reaper
05-23-2010, 06:36
Methinks it is because of the increased back-pressure of some suppressor designs. Increased number of RPM is also observed in some SMGs when running a can. Heard on uzi.com that it is the design of the can (ie different cans increase back-pressure to different levels and hence the RPM)
pro:
There is nothing in your brief intro or nonexistent profile to indicate that you have any personal expertise with SBRs, automatic weapons, or suppressors.
We do not need unsubstantiated comments from other web sites regurgitated by someone with no known personal experience.
Either lay out your personal experience in your profile and intro, or if you have none, refrain from posting on these threads.
Thanks for your cooperation.
TR
Iraqgunz
05-25-2010, 07:55
The most common side effects encountered when shooting suppressed (especially with the M16/M4) is increased back pressure as well as an increase in the cyclic rate. This is due to the fact that the gases are being "retarded' and diverted by the baffles. You will also see a drop in the muzzle velocity as well.
This is why it may also be necessary to change buffers when shooting suppressed. For example, my 11.5" would cycle 100% using an H2 buffer, but I would not get 100% magazine lockback everytime. Once I went to an H3 buffer the problem was solved.
The baffles work by slowing down and traping the gases before they leave the barrel as well as allowing it to cool.
How/why? Any armchair physicists in the audience, feel free to jump in.
per
Sorry, TR. thought he asked for a physicist (admittedly haven't graduated yet). I'll keep my mouth shut and fingers off the keyboard.
The Reaper
05-31-2010, 22:23
Sorry, TR. thought he asked for a physicist (admittedly haven't graduated yet). I'll keep my mouth shut and fingers off the keyboard.
No worries, just stay in your area of expertise, after you explain what they are.
GTG.
TR
The most common side effects encountered when shooting suppressed (especially with the M16/M4) is increased back pressure as well as an increase in the cyclic rate. This is due to the fact that the gases are being "retarded' and diverted by the baffles. You will also see a drop in the muzzle velocity as well.
This is why it may also be necessary to change buffers when shooting suppressed. For example, my 11.5" would cycle 100% using an H2 buffer, but I would not get 100% magazine lockback everytime. Once I went to an H3 buffer the problem was solved.
The baffles work by slowing down and traping the gases before they leave the barrel as well as allowing it to cool.
I would say your post is mostly correct, but I must disagree with the mention of a lower MV. Where have you seen or tested this?
If there is a change, it is usually a slight increase.
Whilst the post is still about suppressors, a quick photo from a test shooting / zeroing session today. Range 100 meters with Lapua 167 gr Scenar :D
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
Iraqgunz
06-01-2010, 12:50
Tuuka,
I remember seeing this data, just can't remember where. I personally do not have access to a chrono so I can validate it. I would assume that since the gases are being diverted it would slow down the bullet as it exits the barrel.
I would say your post is mostly correct, but I must disagree with the mention of a lower MV. Where have you seen or tested this?
If there is a change, it is usually a slight increase.
Whilst the post is still about suppressors, a quick photo from a test shooting / zeroing session today. Range 100 meters with Lapua 167 gr Scenar :D
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
Tuuka,
I remember seeing this data, just can't remember where. I personally do not have access to a chrono so I can validate it. I would assume that since the gases are being diverted it would slow down the bullet as it exits the barrel.
As I said, usually the opposite will happen, a slight increase.
As an example, here is a link to data from an extensive suppressor test organized by the Finnish gun magazine, Kaliberi, in the fall of 2007;
http://www.aseutra.fi/english/Kaliberi_magazine_sound_suppressor_test_results_20 07.JPG
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
Justinmd
06-01-2010, 23:19
Firing with a can produces a phenomenon that I've heard called freebore boost. So yes it boosts MV not lowers it. And it's not too consistent in my experience, unfortunately.
A can does increase the amount of blowback through the bore, this raises carrier velocity significantly, surprisingly, by pushing the empty case while still held in the bolt face.
IG, If the increasing numbers means a heavier buffer, and an H3 locked back, I would say that with the H2 buffer your cycle times were too fast for the bolt stop. If you check the rim of an empty case, you would probably notice a part where it looks like the extractor tried to rip the rim off. This will be less with the heavier buffer.