The Blademaster said stress...

[NousDefionsDoc]

Col. Rex Applegate and i discussed this several times. both shooting and hand to hand fighting had some common factors, training the reflexes for emergency stress response had a lot to do with success or not.

I love this topic. Who can tell us the physiological reactions to stress as pertains to this topic and how it impacts on your ability to respond to a threat?





STOP LOOKING IT UP!

:munchin

[Bill Harsey]

I'll stand by for just a bit here...edited to say I'll repeat what Col. Applagate taught me if no else replies...

[Bill Harsey]

Ok, six minutes have gone by, Here's a hint, "incorporating a humans natural stress response to close sudden danger"

[DunbarFC]

Fight or flight ?

Increased heart rate ?

Dry mouth ?

Sweaty palms ?

[Bill Harsey]

before all that.

[DunbarFC]

Ummmmmmm

I'm out

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by DunbarFC
Fight or flight ?

Increased heart rate ?

Dry mouth ?

Sweaty palms ?

All of the above, which also leads to degradation of fine muscle skills.

Kill, or be killed. Monkey stomp, or be monkey stomped.

TR

[DunbarFC]

Any fight I've ever been in I've felt that before it happened

Last time was this winter when some buddies and I were jumped by a group of punks

[ghuinness]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
before all that.

Eye dilation?

[DunbarFC]

Check out your surroundings

What can you use and what could be used against you

How can you get out if you have to

How many bad guys are there - who should you stomp first

[Ambush Master]

BIG Time Adrenaline Dump and all of it's insidious side effects !! Learning how to control yourself during that phase is imperative. Then, after the "Inducers" are gone, to be able to maintain a rational thought process and di..di.. in a proper fashion is in order !!

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by The Reaper
All of the above, which also leads to degradation of fine muscle skills.

Kill, or be killed. Monkey stomp, or be monkey stomped.

TR Yes I think we are talking about instinctive response of big muscle groups, or the whole body.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by DunbarFC
Ummmmmmm

I'm out No your not, go back to flight or fight. It all begins just before then.

[NousDefionsDoc]

AM gave you the first one and primary casual factor. You guys should know this, your life depends on it - this is an OODA Loop killer.

Reaper and Blademaster are practically giving you the answers.

physiological reactions to stress

ghuinness,
Do you mean tunnel vision?

[Sigi]

...

[Ambush Master]

Does "TRAINING" come into mind ????

[DunbarFC]

I'm sure it does

Muscle memory just takes over

[Ambush Master]

Didn't mean to de-rail the train !!

[ghuinness]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
AM gave you the first one and primary casual factor. You guys should know this, your life depends on it - this is an OODA Loop killer.

Reaper and Blademaster are practically giving you the answers.



ghuinness,
Do you mean tunnel vision?

Eyes dilate to get more light. I believe the net result would be tunnel vision and peripheral capabilities are reduced.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by Ambush Master
BIG Time Adrenaline Dump and all of it's insidious side effects !! Learning how to control yourself during that phase is imperative. Then, after the "Inducers" are gone, to be able to maintain a rational thought process and di..di.. in a proper fashion is in order !! How fast does adrenaline enter our system? It must be in tenths or hundredths of a second.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Tunnel Vision

Auditory Narrowing

[Bill Harsey]

Natural instinct is to turn and face the threat...

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by ghuinness
Eyes dilate to get more light. I believe the net result would be tunnel vision and peripheral capabilities are reduced.

Very good, that's the stuff we're talking about. What else?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well, its official. I am on the slowest connection in the history of the internet.

[ghuinness]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Natural instinct is to turn and face the threat...

I thought curiosity was before the realization of a threat?

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Natural instinct is to turn and face the threat... in a crouched position...

[Ambush Master]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
How fast does adrenaline enter our system? It must be in tenths or hundredths of a second.

Regardless of how fast it enters into the equation, Training and "Mental Conditioning" are the Blocking factors that enable you to immediately react to a threat, respond accordingly then assess the situation and move/react accordingly. It really doesn't matter how fast it happens, how it technically/physiologically affects you, it is how you deal with it !!!

Just .02 from here !!

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by ghuinness
I thought curiosity was before the realization of a threat? Think about instant realization of threat like a gunshot right behind you.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by Ambush Master
Regardless of how fast it enters into the equation, Training and "Mental Conditioning" are the Blocking factors that enable you to immediately react to a threat, respond accordingly then assess the situation and move/react accordingly. It really doesn't matter how fast it happens, how it technically/physiologically affects you, it is how you deal with it !!!

Just .02 from here !! That's certainly correct.

[Sacamuelas]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
before all that.
Before anyone gets into listing the sympathetic nervous system responses... there is a key reaction much more important for some of you HIGHLY trained guys...

The prime ‘directive’ of the human brain is to promote survival and procreation. Therefore, the brain is ‘over-determined’ to sense, process, store, perceive and mobilize in response to threatening information from the external environment. All areas of the brain and body are recruited and orchestrated for optimal survival tasks during the threat. This total neurobiological participation in the threat response is important in understanding how a traumatic experience can impact and alter functioning in such a pervasive fashion.

In order for any experience to be dealt with, traumatic or not, it must be ‘sensed’ -- it must be experienced by the individual. The first step in experiencing is sensation. The first ‘stop’ of this sensory input from the outside environment (e.g., light, sound,etc) is the lower, more ‘regulatory’ parts of the brain(brainstem and midbrain).

As the sensory input comes into the brain stem and midbrain, it is matched against a previously stored patterns of activation and if unknown, or if associated with previous threat, an initial alarm response begins. The alarm response begins a wave of neuronal activation in key brainstem and midbrain nuclei which contain neurons utilizing a variety of neurotransmitters (e.g., norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin), neuromodulators and neuropeptides such as ACTH, corticotrophin releasing factor, vasopressin.

A cascade of activity is initiated in these primitive areas of the brain which moves up to more complex parts of the brain.In addition to sending these signals to higher parts of the brain, this cascade of activity also initiates a set of brainstem and midbrain ‘responses’ to the new information from the environment, allowing the individual to react in a near-reflexive fashion. In many instances, the brain’s response to incoming sensory information will take place well before the signals can get to the higher, cortical parts of the brain where they are ‘interpreted’.

At the level of the brain stem and midbrain, there is very little subjective perception. It is only after communication with cortical areas that the individual is able to make more complex, cognitive associations which allow interpretation of that internal state of anxiety or fear.

Simply stated, then, the fear response will involve a tremendous mobilization and activation of systems distributed throughout the brain. Because the system alter itself in a ‘use-dependent’ way in response to patterned, repetitive neuronal activation(training), a state of repetitive trauma's will result in a set of ‘memories.

This overview describes the sensing, storing and perceiving elements of the response to threat. At each level of the brain, as the incoming input is ‘interpreted’ and matched against previous similar patterns of activation, a response is initiated. The brain responds to the potential threat. This immediate response capability is very important for rapid response to potentially-threatening sensory signals – the classic example of this is the immediate motor action of withdrawal of the finger after being burned – or the jump that takes place following an unexpected loud sound (startle response). Clearly, in order for the brain to react in this immediate, ‘un-interpreted’ fashion, the more primitive portions of the brain (i.e., the brainstem and the midbrain) must ‘store’ previous patterns of sensory input which are associated with the threat – there must be ‘state’ memories – memories of previous patterns of sensory input which were connected with the experience .

The classic ‘response’ to the threatening cues involves activation of the autonomic nervous system. This ‘fight or flight’ reaction involves the physiological manifestations of alarm, arousal and the emotion of anxiety (e.g., profuse sweating, tachycardia, rapid respiration). These physical symptoms are manifestations of activation of the autonomic nervous system and the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, again, an adaptive response to the impending threat.

[Bill Harsey]

Wow, Tactical Tooth Grinder! That's not in any of my knifemaking books. I'll have to back and read that again.

[ghuinness]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Think about instant realization of threat like a gunshot right behind you.

Closest example I have was an experience in a Belize jungle.

1) didn't turn; eye dilation and auditory restricted
2) didn't run - actually froze - immobility
3) brain plays games about reality; is this real? Disbelief etc.
4) the sound creating the fear was coming from behind me.
5) actually waited until the animal jumped me - turned out to
be a safe animal.

I always seem to do things abnormally.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
E=MC2, brain housing group (x-Y2)x(B4/2710)=Cortex BG/12x the square root of a piece of pie=medulla

Right - OODA

If you've seen it before, you'll recognize it faster - especially if it kicked your ass last time.

[Sacamuelas]

LOL.... GO back and read it again and quit being scared of the big words. You sound like Cric and his fear of SOAP format(don't understand it so you make fun of it)...LOL



not exactly ALL that my post said...

It did say that if you seen it before..you'll recognize it faster expecially if it has kicked your ass before....BUT...

It also said that if you create patterns with enough repetition.. you will create reflexive reactions to trained for threats that will actually occur BEFORE your mind even has a chance to interpret that you are in danger. THAT IS THE KEY to being a level 6 monkey stomper!! LOL ( NO, I am not claiming to be at this level)

[Bill Harsey]

gross motor skills, Col. Rex Applegate realized fine motor skills went away just like Reaper said, he adapted his training to teach use of the whole body in sudden emergency situations to both aim and fire the weapon, whether it was handgun, shotgun, rifle or hand held machinegun. He/they trained to take advantage of the bodies natural stress responses to shoot fast and on target while training to overcome problems like loss of fine motor skills and convulsive gripping of the weapon. I know you guys have taken this science farther than the old school could have ever imagined.

[NousDefionsDoc]

It also said that if you create patterns with enough repetition.. you will create reflexive reactions to trained for threats that will actually occur BEFORE your mind even has a chance to interpret that you are in danger.

We KNOW that, but you're putting the fix in before we define the problem.

PS - I'm not scared of big words. I have a gun and I am more than competent.:D

[Sacamuelas]

I just finished reading the CQB pistol paper from a link on that gutterfighting website you posted NDD. I see Bill H. is covering most of that material in perfect detail... Great read BTW. I am lost as to what you are referring to though NDD.

Therefore, I will :munchin

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
We KNOW that, but you're putting the fix in before we define the problem.

Way guilty, I jumped too far forward.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Way guilty, I jumped too far forward.

Not you, the tooth mechanic.

create patterns with enough repetition.. you will create reflexive reactions to trained for threats that will actually occur BEFORE your mind even has a chance to interpret that you are in danger. is how you fix the problem. He's jumping the gun.

Muscle memory is one of the fixes. We haven't finished defining the issue yet. I have to go to bed.

Mr. Harsey, you are a Warrior of many talents.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
We KNOW that, but you're putting the fix in before we define the problem.

Ok, defining the problem now: "seizing up", "freezing" , "hesitating", "Failure to monkey stomp"...

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I have to go to bed.

Good night Sir. Will keep thinking here.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Ok, defining the problem now: "seizing up", "freezing" , "hesitating", "Failure to monkey stomp"...

Right, caused by AM's adreneline dump - tunnel vision, auditory narrowing, body goes into a protective crouch to protect vital organs, head goes down to protect eyes, blood rushes to organs and face, arms come up, muscles tighten, convulsive grip, fine motor skills are lost. Subject focuses on threat to the exclusion of surroundings, etc.

[Solid]

Why oh why did I miss this thread?! Stress response was a big part of Psych 1.

To spit out what I learnt, and maybe (maybe!) add something to the Tactical Toothpuller's post-

The stressor triggers the hypothalamus. This links off into two chains. The first leads to the release of conticotrophin (CRF), which causes the anterior petuitary glands to release ACTH, the adrenal cortex releases many variants of stress hormones such as cortisol, which activate stress responses in the various organs (heart etc). The second chain begins with the hypothalamus causing the 'sympathetic nervous system' to cause the adrenal medulla to release another set of stress hormones such as epherine, which compliment the hormones released by the adrenal cortex. The sympathetic nervous system also activate stress responses in smooth muscles, which lead to pupil dilation etc. The sum total of these effects is the fight or flight response.
The sympathetic nervous system prepares the body for action by increasing levels of energy available to muscle groups by taking energy away from, for example, the immune system.
The reactions is causes are:
Increases strength of skeletal muscles

Decreases blood clotting time
Increases heart rate
Increases sugar and fat levels
Reduces intestinal movement
Inhibits tears, digestive secretions.
Relaxes the bladder
Dilates pupils
Increases perspiration
Increases mental activity
Inhibits erection/vaginal lubrication
Constricts most blood vessels but dilates those in heart/
leg/arm muscles

Seyle pioneered the concept of the General Adaptation Syndrome in the 1950s, which observes three stages of stress-reaction in the normal person. The first is Alarm Reaction. This is the stage which we are discussing, where the brain activates pre-cached stress responses in the body to better allow itself to survive. It is followed by the Resistance stage, where the sympathetic chain 'powers down' the immune system to allow it to sustain the stress-response. This eventually leads to the final stage, Exhaustion, where the immune system is so low that the body succumbs more easily to disease. The stress response itself can have a toll on the body, for example causing ulcers.

If this is of no use, I'll delete it to make space.

Thank you and have a good morning,

Solid

[The Reaper]

I think that the thread has merit, but if you back up a few steps, you could have already been prepared or avoided the threat altogether if you had been prepared.

I am in a minimum Condition Yellow at all waking times, and frequently while sleeping.

If it is night or a high crime area, I go to Orange.

While you have to train for that contingency that you might be surprised, if you have sufficient Situational Awareness in the first place, you can eliminate the vast majority of those "well, I was at the ATM and the guy just came out of nowhere" situations.

The second part is having the tools at hand to deal with problems on an escalating continuum of threat responses. From SA, to a serious look, to a hard word, to OC, to impact weapons, to lethal force, you have to be prepared. Physical resistance may be a part of that tool kit. It is not the only tool. You cannot shoot a mob for throwing rocks at your car, nor is it wise to go into your White Crane kung-fu kata then.

The next part is having the training to use the tools, automatically after deciding on your course of action. Your best course of action, as has already been stated by some martial arts practioners, is to gain space by temporarily disabling your opponent allowing you time and space to depart. Your reaction needs to be simple, rehearsed to be almost automatic upon receiving the threat, executed swiftly, violently, and until the threat is neutralized.

Finally, you have to have the will to see it through. I refuse to recommend firearms to people without the will to take a life. You take that thing out and wave it around at a provocation, you may be legally wrong, and someone may take it from you who DOES have the will to use it.

This does look a lot like an OODA loop, albeit a very accelerated one. Be situationally aware, identify threats early. Identify threats and analyze courses of action, select the appropriate COA, and execute, determine is reapplication or escalation is required.

Of course, when your plan is disrupted (and no plan survives contact with the enemy), you have to have a contingency plan. When Tony Pryor broke into that room in Afghanistan, shot a couple of bad guys, and got hit from behind with a 4x4 (breaking his clavicle and dislocating his shoulder), he had to break the other guy's cycle and go to a new plan. He did, and he won in a dirty rolling around on the ground fight to the death.

Just some observations and opinion.

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Well said Sir Reaper. This is an unusual group of people here (stating the obvious...). The old saying is that the best fighters win because they train and use the basics very well, not because they have achieved fancier and more complicated tecnique. NDD asked the foundation question that a Col. Rex Applegate also sorted out as the beginning of all problems in close contact combat. NDD also defined the human response to a close sudden threat better than I've ever seen it done.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Right, caused by AM's adreneline dump - tunnel vision, auditory narrowing, body goes into a protective crouch to protect vital organs, head goes down to protect eyes, blood rushes to organs and face, arms come up, muscles tighten, convulsive grip, fine motor skills are lost. Subject focuses on threat to the exclusion of surroundings, etc. In case anyone missed this. Here it is again.

[rubberneck]

I am in a minimum Condition Yellow at all waking times, and frequently while sleeping.

What is the psychological toll of being a constant state of readiness? I would have to imagine that being a a constant state of readiness would become draining very very quickly. While I understand that you can dial it down as the situation merits is it possible to aclimitize yourself to a semi state of constant readiness or is there a point that it catches up to you and it kicks your ass.

[Air.177]

Originally posted by rubberneck
What is the psychological toll of being a constant state of readiness? I would have to imagine that being a a constant state of readiness would become draining very very quickly. While I understand that you can dial it down as the situation merits is it possible to aclimitize yourself to a semi state of constant readiness or is there a point that it catches up to you and it kicks your ass.

No toll whatsoever, other than possibly surviving/avoiding bad situations you may have blundered right into if you were just cruising along fat and happy. There are absolutely no adverse side effects to living your life in a constant condition yellow. Basically this just means pull your head out and Pay attention to wtf is going on around you. Do it, You'll live longer

My .02

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by rubberneck
What is the psychological toll of being a constant state of readiness? I would have to imagine that being a a constant state of readiness would become draining very very quickly. While I understand that you can dial it down as the situation merits is it possible to aclimitize yourself to a semi state of constant readiness or is there a point that it catches up to you and it kicks your ass.

None, other than my wife tells me that I am paranoid and make other people nervous. I guess that makes me a stress carrier, not a stress victim.

Friends tell me that I have an evil laugh, and tend to smile with my mouth when my eyes are not smiling, if you get my drift.

I am in agreement with Air.177 on this. I notice no toll or cost associated with being aware. Blundering about in Condition White is how you see people who were carjacked and say that they never even saw the guy. As my Dad used to say, you grab my doorhandle, you better have a good grip, cause we are going to see whether the 0-60 time changes with an external passenger.

I threaten no one intentionally, but I keep my eye on everyone. It is a healthy habit, and I expect to live longer because of it.

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by The Reaper
I guess that makes me a stress carrier, not a stress victim.



TR LOL! Your right! About the vigilance I mean...

[Razor]

Rubberneck, Condition Yellow isn't necessarily stressful; its more about being aware of what's going on around you and filtering out the white noise to pick up danger indicators. Do you look around, up and down rather than straight ahead when you walk down a street? When you enter a building, do you take note of the exits and room layout? Before you approach an ATM or other area with a possible threat do you look around to see where others are and what they're doing? When you drive, do you check your mirrors often and look as far ahead as you can see? If you answer yes to questions like these, you're in Condition Yellow.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Right - Condition Yellow = Head removed from 4th Point of Contact.

[NousDefionsDoc]

tunnel vision, auditory narrowing, body goes into a protective crouch to protect vital organs, head goes down to protect eyes, blood rushes to organs and face, arms come up, muscles tighten, convulsive grip, fine motor skills are lost. Subject focuses on threat to the exclusion of surroundings, etc.

So, how will this affect reactions?

[brownapple]

Originally posted by rubberneck
What is the psychological toll of being a constant state of readiness? I would have to imagine that being a a constant state of readiness would become draining very very quickly. While I understand that you can dial it down as the situation merits is it possible to aclimitize yourself to a semi state of constant readiness or is there a point that it catches up to you and it kicks your ass.

Ask the people who live in NYC. Reaper's description sounds about like most of the folks I know who were raised there (bridge and tunnel people not included, some of them seem to be in a daze).

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tunnel vision, auditory narrowing, body goes into a protective crouch to protect vital organs, head goes down to protect eyes, blood rushes to organs and face, arms come up, muscles tighten, convulsive grip, fine motor skills are lost. Subject focuses on threat to the exclusion of surroundings, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, how will this affect reactions?

Slows it down if you are untrained.

When shit goes down you have to either fight your bodies natural defenses, or train so much that you alter your bodies natural defenses into a set course of action(s) that will give you the best chance of survival.

My Professor used to call this your "Inner Warrior Awakening". You train the Inner Warrior every time you do any type of Martial Arts, Shooting, or Monkey Stomping training. Basically any type of self defenses/preservation training. Any time the shit hits the fan and you are not ready for it your body will do what you train it to do. This is AKA as muscle memory drills stuff you don't have to think about.

Am I close NDD and Blademaster? Or am I giving the cure to the problem?

[shadowflyer]

My wife seems to think I am crazy/paranoid, but I carry concealed religously. She doesnt understand that alot of people in this land would just as easy gut her and watch her bleed out as say" hey how are you doing". I am constantly evaluating everyone walking near us or past us, always sizing up the situation. Does this person look like he is packing?Is that guy keeping his glance or stare a lil longer than he should. Is that area behind the car safe? I am putting My son in the car and my wife and daughter are on the other side, constantly looking up and over at them and behind me to make sure my 6 is clear.

JJ

[NousDefionsDoc]

When shit goes down you have to either fight your bodies natural defenses, or train so much that you alter your bodies natural defenses into a set course of action(s) that will give you the best chance of survival.

Or maybe find a system that takes advantage of these natural reactions to stress?

[brownapple]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Or maybe find a system that takes advantage of these natural reactions to stress?

Hmmmm.... sounds like the "Kill or be killed" system to me....

[NousDefionsDoc]

Roger.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Or maybe find a system that takes advantage of these natural reactions to stress?


Um.....Ya that too. :)

[hoepoe]

Good morning

Training helps to channel these natural changes on our bodies to use them to the maximum.

Being "civilized" humans as we are, much of our instinctive defenses have been lost through evolution, sometimes training the mind and body helps reawaken/hone these natural instincts allowing us to use them one step further than the defense mode as NDD mentioned.

ie. when the proverbial shit hits the fan, a trained mind/body will be able to look, assess and react as part of the bodies natural defenses whilst an untrained mind/body would go into defensive mode (as described above) and then only would the LAR come into play, after the subject has actively thought, ok, WTF!

It is my opinion however, that not everyone requires training to reach this level of "knowing your self", some have it naturally.

Make any sense?

Hoepoe

[Roguish Lawyer]

Great thread. :munchin

[Tetrian]

Yep, it sure is!

Think im beginning to suffer from sensory overload from all the things i learned here.

:munchin <-- joins the popcorn party


-Tetrian

[Sdiver]

Here's my .02

In a book I read quit a bit, by Joe Hayms called "Zen in the Martial Arts", he asked one of his Instructors this question :

"If you ever found yourself having to defend yourself in a Court of Law, for having killed someone, in an act of Self Defense, what would your defense be?"

His Instructor thought for a moment and answered:

"If I ever found myself in that situation, I would say it was Musin, or the state of NO MIND. That is where, through training repetition, your body and mind work as one. You act and react without thinking, like breathing. You do it without thinking. It just happens."

His Instructor was Bruce Lee.

[Doc T]

Originally posted by The Reaper
None, other than my wife tells me that I am paranoid and make other people nervous. I guess that makes me a stress carrier, not a stress victim.

I threaten no one intentionally, but I keep my eye on everyone. It is a healthy habit, and I expect to live longer because of it.

TR

you and the team sergeant make a great pair!

doc t.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Doc T
you and the team sergeant make a great pair!

doc t.

That is high praise, Doc, and I appreciate it.

TR

[Roycroft201]

Stress vs. situational awareness.

If I am reading this correctly, trainging and education create a natural state of situational awareness,ie. Condition Yellow, such as that described by The Reaper and Doc T of Team Sergeant.

? - Therefore, Condition Yellow does not cause the body to release the hormones normally released in stressful situations, cortisol et al, nor does it create the additional reaction of immune deficiency during stress ? Condition Yellow is therefore not being in a state of "fight or flight" at all times, as it pertains to hormonal response. The body can be trained to not react hormonally. Yes ?

Roycroft201



edited by RC201

[The Reaper]

Follow this story:

SUBWAY SHOOTING

By DAN MANGAN, MURRAY WEISS and TODD VENEZIA

June 2, 2004 -- A model who played a bit part on TV's "Law and Order" became the center of a real-life crime drama beneath Times Square yesterday when a mystery gunman shot her while she rode the subway, cops said.

Monica Meadows, a 22-year-old Georgia beauty who recently moved to New York to pursue stardom, told cops she was sipping a soda on an uptown W train approaching the Times Square station when she heard a popping noise — and saw her white sweater turn red with blood.

She staggered out of the train at the bustling station — her shoulder burning with pain — while the "scruffy"-looking gunman made his escape in the crowd of fleeing straphangers, police sources said.

"There was just a loud pop," said a 25-year-old student who witnessed the attack. "Nobody even knew she was shot.

"All of a sudden, she started gushing blood and people ran away. There were people screaming . . . She was, like, 'I think I've been shot . . . Somebody help me. Somebody help me.' "

The 5-foot-10 Meadows, who had worked as a model while attending college in Colorado, was riding back from her talent agency on 28th Street when the shooting occurred at about 2 p.m., some 30 seconds before the train pulled into the station.

Cops said they don't know if she was the intended target, but added that the shooting was no accident.



Meadows and the gunmen were sitting near each other when he fired, police said. No one confronted her before the shooting, but cops haven't ruled out the possibility the gunman fought with someone else.

The shooter — described as a white man in his early 30s with a messenger bag and shoulder-length hair — walked into the next car after the attack and then disappeared into the crowd of passengers after the train stopped.

Meadows was helped by fellow passengers to a token booth. She gave her cellphone to a witness to call her boyfriend.

"I said, 'I have unfortunate news: Your girlfriend has been shot,' " said the woman who made the call.

"I just said she seems to be doing fine."

Meadows was in stable condition at Bellevue Hospital.

"She's very, very lucky," said hospital spokesman James Saunders. "The doctors are calling her the 'Miracle Model.' "


Meadows hails from McDonough, Ga., and is the daughter of one of Atlanta's most prominent attorneys, Roy G. Meadows.

She studied acting at the University of Northern Colorado, according to Brad Baldwin, the owner of a Denver modeling agency where she worked.

Since coming to New York in the past year, Meadows had started down the hard path to stardom, scoring a bit part in a January episode of "Law & Order: Criminal Intent."

She also spent time last spring paying her dues in a production of the play "Fashion," at the White Plains Performing Arts Center. The Journal News review panned the production, but hailed Meadows as "every bit the intended statuesque beauty."

Baldwin said Meadows never had trouble in her personal life.

"You get people coming through this business that are troubled people," he said. "She wasn't one of them. She's the all-American girl."

Additional reporting by Jennifer Fermino and Philip Messing

Not to be critical, but we have a beautiful woman, not from the area, riding a subway in NYC, sipping a soda, failing to notice that an altercation is taking place and a weapon is drawn and pointed at her, within a few feet.

Vulnerable and desireable individual, Condition White (in a situation hardly warranting it), SA turned off, gets hit.

Folks an entry into a NY subway would put me on Orange, at least. Having her head up and looking around might have let her see this coming in time to react.

Unfortunately, that is the sort of thing that eventually happens to people who try to be stress free and oblivious to things happening around them.

Wake up. Be alert and stay alive, people.

TR

[shadowflyer]

Here is a link for information on the Awareness Spectrum.


Awareness....it will save your life (http://www.albany.edu/ssw/projectsafe/awareness.html)

[Roycroft201]

Thanks, shadowflyer. The link answered my question. This is a great thread.

Roycroft201

[Sacamuelas]

RC201-

First off, I think might be confused as to what the main players in the fight or flight scenario are... Cortisol is not one of the key players in what effects your physical reactions. Epinephrine (adrenaline in laymen's terms) is the main player. It is almost completely responsible for most of the reactions that NDD described.

Secondly, the point of my post and somewhat the others was to point out that if trained properly, an individual can actually develop a brainstem level TRUE REFLEX response similar to the automatic ducking that a normal individual will do when he/she hears a loud bang. A well trained individual may draw his CCW at that same bang, even before his mind has processed the fact that he has even heard a loud bang and then decide to do something about it. This happens way before (relatively) his Epi is dumped in his system to cause the fight or flight response systems.

What it seems NDD, Bill, Ambush Master, etc were focusing on is the next phase of the process where the fight or flight mechanism is evident and the person has had time to Comprehend that he is in danger- even if just in a very simple and quick realization that the stimulus is dangerous
.
This coincides with what NDD and Bill H. were referencing from the Kill or be Kilt techniques. Ex. The natural reflex is to crouch down when in danger, so one should practice shooting techniques that encompass this body position as it is likely to be your "natural" position if faced with an extremely dangerous situation. The same goes for grip on pistol, target focus patterns when in danger, etc.

I think the idea of being at condition yellow is really a slightly different point/process, yet probably more important to personal safety overall than ANY response you can make after an incident has occurred.

Standing by for correction by experienced guru's....:munchin

[Roycroft201]

Thanks, Saca.



Roycroft201

[brownapple]

Regarding the subway shooting...

There may or may not have been an altercation for her to see.

When I was working as a photographer in NYC, there was another photographer who basically raped models he employed for jobs. He figured it was part of what he was due for giving them the job. Models who resisted, he hurt (or tried to). His career came to an abrupt ending when he raped the girlfriend of a gentleman of Italian descent who had a rather large house in Brooklyn.

I do agree with TR. Regardless of how much safer NYC is and the subways are courtesy of Rudy Guliani, you still have to be aware. I don't sit on subways... ever. Restricts the ability to be actively alert without drawing attention to you (typical riders of subways and mass transit trains anywhere have a tendency to not look around, to focus on a book, newspaper or just look down when seated,).

[hoepoe]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3791357.stm

Brain has 'early warning system'
The researchers scanned people's brains to monitor activity
University College London experts have shown how the brain subconsciously remembers details around past dangers.

Writing in Nature, they say blocking this system could help treat pain by interrupting such a brain process. "

In order to save bandwidth, the complete article can be viewed at the lnk above.

Hoepoe

[NousDefionsDoc]

I wonder how much of the reaction to stress is physiological from holding one's breath?

[Solid]

NDD,
Just before 2000, there was a study performed on the British Freediving team to determine if their ability to hold their breaths was a function of physical abnormality or mental ability to minimize the stress response and thereby maintain normal, and lesser, bodily requirements for oxygen. The results were inconclusive.

It makes sense, though, that as your body needs more oxygen when stressed, your ability to hold your breath for a long time is at least partially determined by your ability to control your stress response.

HTH,

Solid