View Full Version : Prediction on the election
This is a quote from an article on Clinton supporters defecting to McCain with check book in Hand: one Texas donor, who gave $2,300 to Clinton earlier this year and contributed $2,300 to McCain last month, told ABCNews.com.
"I talk to plenty of people like me who just won't accept an unqualified president."
And that is the issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This election reminds me of McGovern/Nixon 1972. Huge press support and young voters for McGovern...Nixon won in a landslide IIRC. As a result, I am predicting McCain overwhelming wins and that race will not factor into the results of his doing so.
One side note that I looked up. Mcgovern and Nixon were tied at 41% with George Wallace at 18% in September. Nixon won by more that 23 % points over McGovern.
Red Flag 1
08-28-2008, 11:27
Please be right Chef!!
RF 1
Thank you for the report, Chef Penn!
Perhaps there is hope, after all.
I am predicting McCain overwhelming wins and that race will not factor into the results of his doing so.
I totally agree with you – although every time you turn on a news channel the liberal media is bringing up race. Someone posted a video on here that showed Obama saying himself in 2004 that he was not qualified to run for president. I think McCain wins but I would have bet a lot of money that after everything Clinton did he would not have been elected for a second term so what do I know. :munchin
Team Sergeant
08-28-2008, 15:13
This election reminds me of McGovern/Nixon 1972.
I'll take your word on that, I was still playing with Play-Doh in 1972.;)
greenberetTFS
08-28-2008, 15:32
This is a quote from an article on Clinton supporters defecting to McCain with check book in Hand: one Texas donor, who gave $2,300 to Clinton earlier this year and contributed $2,300 to McCain last month, told ABCNews.com.
"I talk to plenty of people like me who just won't accept an unqualified president."
And that is the issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This election reminds me of McGovern/Nixon 1972. Huge press support and young voters for McGovern...Nixon won in a landslide IIRC. As a result, I am predicting McCain overwhelming wins and that race will not factor into the results of his doing so.
One side note that I looked up. Mcgovern and Nixon were tied at 41% with George Wallace at 18% in September. Nixon won by more that 23 % points over McGovern.
Sure hope your right Chef.......:D
GB TFS :munchin
I'll take your word on that, I was still playing with Play-Doh in 1972.;)
I think I was still eating it.:cool:
ZonieDiver
08-28-2008, 17:08
This is a quote from an article on Clinton supporters defecting to McCain with check book in Hand: one Texas donor, who gave $2,300 to Clinton earlier this year and contributed $2,300 to McCain last month, told ABCNews.com.
"I talk to plenty of people like me who just won't accept an unqualified president."
And that is the issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This election reminds me of McGovern/Nixon 1972. Huge press support and young voters for McGovern...Nixon won in a landslide IIRC. As a result, I am predicting McCain overwhelming wins and that race will not factor into the results of his doing so.
One side note that I looked up. Mcgovern and Nixon were tied at 41% with George Wallace at 18% in September. Nixon won by more that 23 % points over McGovern.
It was my first election! I almost voted for McGovern because I thought he had an NCO running with him. Then I found out that "Sargent" was his first name, not his rank! ;)
Soft Target
08-29-2008, 06:23
It was my first election! I almost voted for McGovern because I thought he had an NCO running with him. Then I found out that "Sargent" was his first name, not his rank! ;)
Now that thar's funny, I don't care who you are. Way to go, Zonie.
Soft Target
08-29-2008, 06:26
This is a quote from an article on Clinton supporters defecting to McCain with check book in Hand: one Texas donor, who gave $2,300 to Clinton earlier this year and contributed $2,300 to McCain last month, told ABCNews.com.
"I talk to plenty of people like me who just won't accept an unqualified president."
And that is the issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This election reminds me of McGovern/Nixon 1972. Huge press support and young voters for McGovern...Nixon won in a landslide IIRC. As a result, I am predicting McCain overwhelming wins and that race will not factor into the results of his doing so.
One side note that I looked up. Mcgovern and Nixon were tied at 41% with George Wallace at 18% in September. Nixon won by more that 23 % points over McGovern.
I had the dubious honor of pulling Staff Duty on the night of McGovern's "Chicken in Every Pot" speech. It was the only thing on since we had only rabbit ears and the Big Three networks, so I heard every word.
This is why I didn't listen to BO's speech, I heard it before.
jamber97
08-29-2008, 09:37
Obama in a land slide. Now that Obamas talking details and moving to the center Mcains in trouble. I predict that Obama comes across stronger, younger etc in the debates which will put him over the top.
I'm excited to see more of Palin. This election season is going to be a nice change in comparision to the ones in the past. Either way we'll have a first, first minority as president ot first female vice president.
The Reaper
08-29-2008, 09:48
Obama in a land slide. Now that Obamas talking details and moving to the center Mcains in trouble. I predict that Obama comes across stronger, younger etc in the debates which will put him over the top.
I'm excited to see more of Palin. This election season is going to be a nice change in comparision to the ones in the past. Either way we'll have a first, first minority as president ot first female vice president.
Did you see the Saddleback debate?
I must have missed the Obama details. When has he explained those?
Have you served in the military with Dem in the White House before? If you haven't, you are in for a great big freaking surprise.
TR (served under both the Carter and Clinton administrations)
jamber97
08-29-2008, 09:55
Did you see the Saddleback debate?
I must have missed the Obama details. When has he explained those?
TR
Yes I watched the saddleback debate and quite a few of the Dem debates. Obama has all the tools to be a stronger debater but needs to pull it together. Based upon what I've observed it seems as though he's starting to pick up momentum and figure things out.
Obamas details were laid out in his speech last night and all of the details pointed towards the middle ground. I'm excited to see how the Republicans counter.
Is you missed the (debate) interview you can download the full text and video here: http://trevinwax.com/2008/08/17/obama-mccain-with-rick-warren-at-saddleback-forum-video/
Oh, Jamber, your bais is showing.
"Obama has all the tools to be a stronger debater but needs to pull it together."
I have heard him speak without a teleprompter and he makes W sound eloquent. He is a dumbass. a carefully groomed and controlled dumbass. He will fuel saturday night live with his speaking gaffs if elected. Do a youtube search of his interviews (not speeches) and then see if you think he has tools or is a tool.
The Reaper
08-29-2008, 10:06
Yes I watched the saddleback debate and quite a few of the Dem debates. Obama has all the tools to be a stronger debater but needs to pull it together. Based upon what I've observed it seems as though he's starting to pick up momentum and figure things out.
Obamas details were laid out in his speech last night and all of the details pointed towards the middle ground. I'm excited to see how the Republicans counter.
I did not see any vaunted debating skills displayed by Obama during Saddleback. Frankly, he looked stunned, confused, and wandered around the questions without answering them directly. Makes me wonder if he can work without a prepared speech and a teleprompter.
I watched the acceptance speech last night and saw few, if any details. Can you point a few out to me?
Saying what it takes to get elected does not a centrist make. Make no mistake - Obama is a liberal to the core. Look at his voting record, and his spending proposals. Well, the ones he actually bothered to vote Yes or No on. His long-time attendance at the Rev Wright's church makes me suspect that he is a serious racist as well.
As far as the momentum goes, how many of the last 14 primaries did he win?
20 point generic Dim preference, and he can barely stay ahead of McCain in the polls? Looks like a loser to me.
TR
I'll take your word on that, I was still playing with Play-Doh in 1972.;)
Practicing for the C-4 I would imagine?:D
charlietwo
08-29-2008, 10:19
I have to agree with Penn... this is going to end up being a landslide in McCain's favor. Just wait for a few debates and the American people will see the "change" Obama wants to bring. Not to mention, he has approximately 70 days to put his foot in his mouth, repeatedly.
It's McCain's to lose, and I think his choice in Palin is going to seal the deal. He'll pull in many more middle-aged, middle-class, white mother voters. Possibly even some middle of the road dems. Obama won't pull anyone except the unwashed/uninformed mass, and the ones who hate "republicans and neocons". Just my .02 :munchin
ZonieDiver
08-29-2008, 10:37
I have to agree with Penn... this is going to end up being a landslide in McCain's favor. Just wait for a few debates and the American people will see the "change" Obama wants to bring. Not to mention, he has approximately 70 days to put his foot in his mouth, repeatedly.
It's McCain's to lose, and I think his choice in Palin is going to seal the deal. He'll pull in many more middle-aged, middle-class, white mother voters. Possibly even some middle of the road dems. Obama won't pull anyone except the unwashed/uninformed mass, and the ones who hate "republicans and neocons". Just my .02 :munchin
I ran for school board in '06, and depended on some very liberal people to walk neighborhoods and distribute flyers. At planning sessions, they were all enthused about potentially getting rid of a very racist, mean SB president. When the Saturday morning arrived, with hundreds of flyers ready, only 3 showed up! I guess the rest were too busy collecting McDonald's french fries grease to convert to bio-fuel. Liberals, especially the younger ones (the 3 who showed up were 40+), are very long on talk - and very short on action. They are NOT "action people"!
Obamas details were laid out in his speech last night and all of the details pointed towards the middle ground. I'm excited to see how the Republicans counter.
I heard a lot of words, but no details. I'm going to ask you the same question that I asked a co-worker, who BTW couldn't really pinpoint one in answer to my question. What details did you hear?
We definitely weren't watching the same speech.
Obama may be a good speaker, nice voice poses well. Doesn't mean he has debating skills for real facts, intelligent direction. It's like another thread involving an individual with "eloquent" writing skills. It sounds or reads just fine, but it's still shit.
jamber97
08-29-2008, 14:26
Maybe my idea of details in an acceptance speech are different than yours. You can only be so detailed with out putting people to sleep and losing their attention. You'll notice the same thing when Mccain gives his acceptance speech. FYI I'm a registered Republican and love politics. I try not to be biased but that hard to do when I listen to conservative radio all day.
The gist:
Tax cuts for 95 percent of working families, a pledge to end dependence on foreign oil in 10 years through investment in natural gas, safe nuclear power, clean coal technology, more fuel-efficient cars and $150 billion invested in alternative energy. He promised to improve education, pay teachers more, provide every American with affordable health care and protect Social Security's financial future.
Details:
Obama has pledged to attack the weak economy with another stimulus plan to follow the $168 billion package of tax rebates for individuals and tax breaks for businesses that Congress passed last February. Obama's stimulus would include tax rebates, aid to state and local governments and increased spending for infrastructure projects. He would also increase spending in other areas such as alternative energy programs.
Retain President Bush's tax cuts for families making less than $250,000 a year and provide more relief to the squeezed middle class by creating new tax breaks for lower-income families; extend the current "patch" that keeps the Alternative Minimum Tax, designed to make sure the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes, from hitting more middle-class families; exempt seniors making less than $50,000 per year from paying income taxes, expand the tax credit for college and provide incentives to encourage savings, and help pay for child care and pay mortgage expenses.
A short-term rebate of $1,000 per couple to help with rising energy costs; release of up to 70 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, and investment of $15 billion a year over the next decade to encourage renewable energy, clean-coal technology and electric cars.
Obama would increase the number of people with health insurance by having the government subsidize the cost of coverage for low- and middle-income families. To help pay for that expense, Obama would increase taxes for those families earning more than $250,000. He also would require employers not offering health coverage to pay a percentage of their payroll toward a national health plan. And he would mandate that children have health insurance, and expand who can participate in Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program.
Obama says he would engage both allies and adversaries to repair the U.S. image abroad and regain leverage and leadership that he says Bush squandered. He says he will marshal international pressure against Iran, boost U.S. efforts against extremists along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and get a faster and firmer start on Middle East peacemaking.
Pull all U.S. combat forces out of Iraq within 16 months, send more combat troops to Afghanistan and provide better care for wounded troops and veterans.
An $18 billion plan that would encourage, but not mandate, universal pre-kindergarten; teacher pay raises tied to, although not based solely on, test scores; an overhaul of President Bush's No Child Left Behind law to better measure student progress, make room for non-core subjects like music and art and be less punitive toward failing schools, and a tax credit to pay up to $4,000 of college costs for students who perform 100 hours of community service a year. Obama would pay for his plan by ending corporate tax deductions for CEO pay and delaying NASA's moon and Mars missions.
Soft Target
08-29-2008, 14:30
Did you see the Saddleback debate?
I must have missed the Obama details. When has he explained those?
Have you served in the military with Dem in the White House before? If you haven't, you are in for a great big freaking surprise.
TR (served under both the Carter and Clinton administrations)
TR = Absolutely Right!!! In a sense I was lucky to retire three months before Clinton took office. As you know; what a thrill it was doing our job while dealing with the Vance/Christopher State Department. Oh of course, the time I bought gas at the Campbell AAFES Gas Station in my jeep; I was a company commander with troops in the field and no gas. Sound familiar?
Soft Target
08-29-2008, 14:34
Just heard about McCain's VEEP selection. McCain by more than ten percent of the electoral votes.
Tax cuts for 95 percent of working families
Obama has pledged to attack the weak economy with another stimulus plan to follow the $168 billion package of tax rebates for individuals and tax breaks for businesses that Congress passed last February. Obama's stimulus would include tax rebates, aid to state and local governments and increased spending for infrastructure projects. He would also increase spending in other areas such as alternative energy programs.
exempt seniors making less than $50,000 per year from paying income taxes, expand the tax credit for college and provide incentives to encourage savings, and help pay for child care and pay mortgage expenses.
A short-term rebate of $1,000 per couple to help with rising energy costs;
and investment of $15 billion a year over the next decade to encourage renewable energy, clean-coal technology and electric cars.
Obama would increase the number of people with health insurance by having the government subsidize the cost of coverage for low- and middle-income families. And he would mandate that children have health insurance, and expand who can participate in Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program.
...provide better care for wounded troops and veterans.
An $18 billion plan that would encourage, but not mandate, universal pre-kindergarten; teacher pay raises... make room for non-core subjects like music and art... a tax credit to pay up to $4,000 of college costs for students who perform 100 hours of community service a year.
How to pay for all that...
To help pay...Obama would increase taxes for those families earning more than $250,000. He also would require employers not offering health coverage to pay a percentage of their payroll toward a national health plan... by ending corporate tax deductions for CEO pay and delaying NASA's moon and Mars missions.
The above and an increase in taxes for the evil 5% left out of the tax breaks.
Not mentioned is the U.N. treaty package he'd like to sign into which includes ending world poverty that has no indication of what money the United States will be asked to provide, though I'd believe it would be the largest amount.
So what's the math on this. I'm not rich and it all sounds good, but I'm just thinking the money isn't there.
Neither do I give a damn how many houses the McCains have. I rent an apartment. They had their goals I had mine, we both worked for what we have and that's the real American dream.
greenberetTFS
08-29-2008, 15:35
Just heard about McCain's VEEP selection. McCain by more than ten percent of the electoral votes.
Soft Target hit it right on the head. :) John McCain should win by at lease that margin...:D
GB TFS :munchin
ZonieDiver
08-29-2008, 16:33
Maybe my idea of details in an acceptance speech are different than yours. You can only be so detailed with out putting people to sleep and losing their attention. You'll notice the same thing when Mccain gives his acceptance speech. FYI I'm a registered Republican and love politics. I try not to be biased but that hard to do when I listen to conservative radio all day.
The gist:
Tax cuts for 95 percent of working families, a pledge to end dependence on foreign oil in 10 years through investment in natural gas, safe nuclear power, clean coal technology, more fuel-efficient cars and $150 billion invested in alternative energy. He promised to improve education, pay teachers more, provide every American with affordable health care and protect Social Security's financial future.
Details:
Obama has pledged to attack the weak economy with another stimulus plan to follow the $168 billion package of tax rebates for individuals and tax breaks for businesses that Congress passed last February. Obama's stimulus would include tax rebates, aid to state and local governments and increased spending for infrastructure projects. He would also increase spending in other areas such as alternative energy programs.
Retain President Bush's tax cuts for families making less than $250,000 a year and provide more relief to the squeezed middle class by creating new tax breaks for lower-income families; extend the current "patch" that keeps the Alternative Minimum Tax, designed to make sure the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes, from hitting more middle-class families; exempt seniors making less than $50,000 per year from paying income taxes, expand the tax credit for college and provide incentives to encourage savings, and help pay for child care and pay mortgage expenses.
A short-term rebate of $1,000 per couple to help with rising energy costs; release of up to 70 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, and investment of $15 billion a year over the next decade to encourage renewable energy, clean-coal technology and electric cars.
Obama would increase the number of people with health insurance by having the government subsidize the cost of coverage for low- and middle-income families. To help pay for that expense, Obama would increase taxes for those families earning more than $250,000. He also would require employers not offering health coverage to pay a percentage of their payroll toward a national health plan. And he would mandate that children have health insurance, and expand who can participate in Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program.
Obama says he would engage both allies and adversaries to repair the U.S. image abroad and regain leverage and leadership that he says Bush squandered. He says he will marshal international pressure against Iran, boost U.S. efforts against extremists along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and get a faster and firmer start on Middle East peacemaking.
Pull all U.S. combat forces out of Iraq within 16 months, send more combat troops to Afghanistan and provide better care for wounded troops and veterans.
An $18 billion plan that would encourage, but not mandate, universal pre-kindergarten; teacher pay raises tied to, although not based solely on, test scores; an overhaul of President Bush's No Child Left Behind law to better measure student progress, make room for non-core subjects like music and art and be less punitive toward failing schools, and a tax credit to pay up to $4,000 of college costs for students who perform 100 hours of community service a year. Obama would pay for his plan by ending corporate tax deductions for CEO pay and delaying NASA's moon and Mars missions.
Here's a detail he had in his speech: Obama wants to DOUBLE the capital gains tax on "rich" people and eliminate it on "Small and Start-up businesses" despite the fact that most small businesses don't pay much, or any, capital gains taxes. And the upshot of increasing cap gains tax is to drive investment ELSEwhere! That'll be great for our economy. The man is a demagogue - preying on the economic ignorance of the vast majority of our populace. This is in part to blame on turning over the teaching of econ in HS to "consumer advocates" with NO knowledge of actual economics. Just my opinion...
jamber97
08-29-2008, 17:54
Here's a detail he had in his speech: Obama wants to DOUBLE the capital gains tax on "rich" people and eliminate it on "Small and Start-up businesses" despite the fact that most small businesses don't pay much, or any, capital gains taxes. And the upshot of increasing cap gains tax is to drive investment ELSEwhere! That'll be great for our economy. The man is a demagogue - preying on the economic ignorance of the vast majority of our populace. This is in part to blame on turning over the teaching of econ in HS to "consumer advocates" with NO knowledge of actual economics. Just my opinion...
Where would investment go? The United States is one of a slew of countries who have capital gains taxes, some as high as 43%. The last time I checked US capital gains taxes were at 15% for those in the upper tax brackets. I guess they could move to Hong Kong where theres no CG tax. I had a schoolmate who accepted a job there and received a huge signing bonus in stock options. Obama also mentions some tax breaks for those companies who keep jobs here, so maybe that will offset the increase and give incentive?
Jamber97 is an BHO supporter, peroid. Thats all well and good, but you are wrong across the board. Americans seem to always see through the BS, and they will come to realize in the next ten weeks that BHO is to the far extreme left. And They will adjust their sights and balance the democrats in congress with a republican President by the name of McCain.
[QUOTE=sf11b_p;222816
Neither do I give a damn how many houses the McCains have. I rent an apartment. They had their goals I had mine, we both worked for what we have and that's the real American dream.[/QUOTE]
Where did that dream go for so many Americans? I personaly am a college student, working minimum wage trying to get through and paying it all on my own. I dont expect people to pay for me, I dont want it. I believe that if I work my way through it I will be a better person in the end. And as you said, I have my goals and I am WORKING towards them.
I honestly blame the Democrats for getting rid of the idea that to get what you want in life all you need is to work for it.
And as far as paying for all of this goes, without raising taxes, we could always cut away a lot of the sensless government beurocracy. The IRS could go away. And we could also stop giving welfare away willingly to people who dont try to better their situation on their own.
jamber97
08-29-2008, 19:54
Jamber97 is an BHO supporter, peroid. Thats all well and good, but you are wrong across the board. Americans seem to always see through the BS, and they will come to realize in the next ten weeks that BHO is to the far extreme left. And They will adjust their sights and balance the democrats in congress with a republican President by the name of McCain.
Someone has to play the devils advocate or you guys would get bored agreeing with each other all day.
GratefulCitizen
08-29-2008, 23:19
The gist:
Tax cuts for 95 percent of working families, a pledge to end dependence on foreign oil in 10 years through investment in natural gas, safe nuclear power, clean coal technology, more fuel-efficient cars and $150 billion invested in alternative energy. He promised to improve education, pay teachers more, provide every American with affordable health care and protect Social Security's financial future.
Sounds kinda like he's for things that are "good" and against things that are "bad".
Change.
Gee, why didn't some other politician think of that plan?
Details:
Obama has pledged...
Change.
Why didn't some other politician think of making a pledge?
(perhaps to the flag, even...)
He would also increase spending in other areas such as alternative energy programs.
I absolutely believe the first five words.
What comes after that could be anything.
A short-term rebate of $1,000 per couple to help with rising energy costs;
release of up to 70 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve,
and investment of $15 billion a year over the next decade to encourage renewable energy, clean-coal technology and electric cars.
Giving away money will only drive the cost of energy higher.
Undermining the profits of energy companies only postpones the problem.
Ummm...why doesn't he just not tax those industries he wishes to encourage?
Obama would increase the number of people with health insurance by having the government subsidize the cost of coverage for low- and middle-income families. To help pay for that expense, Obama would increase taxes for those families earning more than $250,000. He also would require employers not offering health coverage to pay a percentage of their payroll toward a national health plan. And he would mandate that children have health insurance, and expand who can participate in Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program.
More change.
Anybody remember hillarycare from the 90's?
Obama says he would engage both allies and adversaries to repair the U.S. image abroad and regain leverage and leadership that he says Bush squandered. He says he will marshal international pressure against Iran, boost U.S. efforts against extremists along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and get a faster and firmer start on Middle East peacemaking.
He is meat on the table to foreign leaders.
They can smell the empty rhetoric.
Pull all U.S. combat forces out of Iraq within 16 months, send more combat troops to Afghanistan and provide better care for wounded troops and veterans.
Considering the forum, I'll defer on this one.
An $18 billion plan that would encourage, but not mandate,
Is that kind of like a funded un-mandate?
I've poked some fun here, but in all seriousness, b-ho's socialist economic agenda won't work for one simple reason:
You cannot lift the wage earner by bringing down the wage payer.
One thing, anyone think this Hurricane Gustav occurring during the Republican National Convention might hurt the party's prospects...?Louisiana has a "new" governor....
Stay safe.
Where did that dream go for so many Americans... I have my goals and I am WORKING towards them.
You answered your question, it didn't go anywhere your doing it. So are others, you all just don't get the media attention because you don't whine about it.
Broadsword2004... good points.
jamber97
08-30-2008, 07:46
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080603/NEWS02/890859691
WASHINGTON -- A look at where Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain stand on a selection of issues as they go head-to-head for the presidency:
ABORTION
McCain: Opposes abortion rights. Has voted for abortion restrictions permissible under Roe v. Wade, and now says he would seek to overturn that guarantee of abortion rights. Would not seek constitutional amendment to ban abortion.
Obama: Favors abortion rights.
CAMPAIGN FINANCE
McCain: The co-author of McCain-Feingold campaign finance law, he plans to run his general campaign with public money and within its spending limits. He has urged Obama to do the same. He turned down federal matching funds for primaries so he could spend more than the limits. Federal Election Commission letter said he needs FEC approval before withdrawing from the primary public financing system, but FEC has not had quorum to act. McCain says he needs no such approval. McCain accepts campaign contributions from lobbyists.
Obama: The presidential campaign's fundraising champion has brought in nearly $265 million. Has signaled he will raise private money for his general election, despite his proposal last year to accept public financing and its spending limits if the Republican nominee does, too. Obama refuses to accept money from federal lobbyists and has instructed the Democratic National Committee to do the same for its joint victory fund, an account that would benefit the nominee. Obama does accept money from state lobbyists and from family members of federal lobbyists.
CUBA
McCain: Ease restrictions on Cuba once U.S. is "confident that the transition to a free and open democracy is being made."
Obama: Ease restrictions on family-related travel and on money Cuban-Americans want to send to their families in Cuba. Open to meeting new Cuban leader Raul Castro without preconditions. Ease trade embargo if Havana "begins opening Cuba to meaningful democratic change."
DEATH PENALTY
McCain: Has supported expansion of the federal death penalty and limits on appeals.
Obama: Supports death penalty for crimes for which the "community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage." As Illinois lawmaker, wrote bill mandating videotaping of interrogations and confessions in capital cases and sought other changes in system that had produced wrongful convictions.
EDUCATION
McCain: Favors parental choice of schools, including vouchers for private schools when approved by local officials, and right of parents to choose home schooling. More money for community college education.
Obama: Encourage but not require universal pre-kindergarten programs, expand teacher mentoring programs and reward teachers with higher pay not tied to standardized test scores, in $18 billion plan to be paid for in part by delaying elements of moon and Mars missions. Change No Child Left Behind law "so that we're not just teaching to a test and crowding out programs like art and music." Tax credit to pay up to $4,000 of college expenses for students who perform 100 hours of community service a year.
GAY MARRIAGE
McCain: Opposes constitutional amendment to ban it. Says same-sex couples should be allowed to enter into legal agreements for insurance and similar benefits.
Obama: Opposes constitutional amendment to ban it. Supports civil unions, says states should decide about marriage.
GLOBAL WARMING
McCain: Broke with President Bush on global warming. Led Senate effort to cap greenhouse gas emissions; favors tougher fuel efficiency. Favors plan that would see greenhouse gas emissions cut by 60 percent by 2050. Supports more nuclear power.
Obama: Ten-year, $150 billion program to produce "climate friendly" energy supplies that he'd pay for with a carbon auction requiring businesses to bid competitively for the right to pollute. Joined McCain in sponsoring earlier legislation that would set mandatory caps on greenhouse gas emissions. Supports tougher fuel efficiency standards.
GUN CONTROL
McCain: Voted against ban on assault-type weapons but in favor of requiring background checks at gun shows. Voted to shield gun-makers and dealers from civil suits. "I believe the Second Amendment ought to be preserved -- which means no gun control."
Obama: Voted to leave gun-makers and dealers open to suit. Also, as Illinois state lawmaker, supported ban on all forms of semiautomatic weapons and tighter state restrictions generally on firearms.
HEALTH CARE
McCain: $2,500 refundable tax credit for individuals, $5,000 for families, to make health insurance more affordable. No mandate for universal coverage. In gaining the tax credit, workers could not deduct the portion of their workplace health insurance paid by their employers.
Obama: Mandatory coverage for children, no mandate for adults. Aim for universal coverage by requiring employers to share costs of insuring workers and by offering coverage similar to that in plan for federal employees. Says package would cost up to $65 billion a year after unspecified savings from making system more efficient. Raise taxes on wealthier families to pay the cost.
HOUSING
McCain: Open to helping homeowners facing foreclosure if they are "legitimate borrowers" and not speculators.
Obama: Tax credit covering 10 percent of annual mortgage interest payments for "struggling homeowners," scoring system for consumers to compare mortgages, a fund for mortgage fraud victims, new penalties for mortgage fraud, aid to state and local governments stung by housing crisis, in $20 billion plan geared to "responsible homeowners."
IMMIGRATION
McCain: Sponsored 2006 bill that would have allowed illegal immigrants to stay in the U.S., work and apply to become legal residents after learning English, paying fines and back taxes and clearing a background check. Now says he would secure the border first. Supports border fence.
Obama: Voted for 2006 bill offering legal status to illegal immigrants subject to conditions, including English proficiency and payment of back taxes and fines. Voted for border fence.
IRAN
McCain: Favors tougher sanctions, opposes direct high-level talks with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Obama: Initially said he would meet Ahmadinejad without preconditions, now says he's not sure "Ahmadinejad is the right person to meet with right now." But says direct diplomacy with Iranian leaders would give U.S. more credibility to press for tougher international sanctions.
IRAQ
McCain: Opposes scheduling a troop withdrawal, saying latest strategy is succeeding. Supported decision to go to war, but was early critic of the manner in which administration prosecuted it. Key backer of the troop increase. Willing to have permanent U.S. peacekeeping forces in Iraq.
Obama: Spoke against war at start, opposed troop increase. Now says his plan would complete withdrawal of combat troops by end of 2009, four months sooner than his previous commitment. Before that, had said a timetable for completing withdrawal would be irresponsible without knowing what facts he'd face in office.
SOCIAL SECURITY
McCain: Would consider "almost anything" as part of a compromise to save Social Security, yet rules out higher payroll taxes for now.
Obama: Proposes raising cap with an unspecified "small adjustment" that would subject a portion of higher incomes to Social Security taxes.
STEM CELL RESEARCH
McCain: Supports relaxing federal restrictions on financing of embryonic stem cell research.
Obama: Supports relaxing restrictions on federal financing of embryonic stem cell research.
TAXES
McCain: "No new taxes" if elected. Twice opposed Bush's tax cuts, at first because he said they were tilted to the wealthiest and again because of the unknown costs of Iraq war. Now says those tax cuts, expiring in 2010, should be permanent. Proposes cutting corporate tax rate to 25 percent. Promises balance budget in first term, says that is unlikely in his first year.
Obama: Raise income taxes on wealthiest and their capital gains and dividends taxes. Raise corporate taxes. $80 billion in tax breaks mainly for poor workers and elderly, including tripling Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credit for larger families. Eliminate tax-filing requirement for older workers making under $50,000. A mortgage-interest credit could be used by lower-income homeowners who do not take the mortgage interest deduction because they do not itemize their taxes.
TRADE
McCain: Free trade advocate.
Obama: Seek to reopen North American Free Trade Agreement to strengthen enforcement of labor and environmental standards. In 2004 Senate campaign, called for "enforcing existing trade agreements," not amending them.
I go down the list and put a check by the name of the Candidate more in line with my views. Even though a couple of the issues have a somewhat slanted view against McCain.
Yeap, what I thought. McCain , while not perfect in my view, is a lot closer in most of his positions than the other guy.
USANick7
08-31-2008, 15:13
Well Jamber you are certainly attempting to swim up stream here, so I give you credit for that.
I do have one question...what would you say is the foundation of your world view?
Mine is Christianity, but if I might elaborate it goes something like this...
I work off the fundamental principle that individual liberty is a "good thing" (value judgment) provided it is restrained from direct interference of someone else individual liberty. There are exceptions to this rule, but this is the starting point from which I begin my analysis of a policy.
Therefore I think that the government should be restrained. Government should provide a very limited amount of services at the federal level. Mainly dealing with defense, interstate commerce, and foreign affairs. And even in this regard, should use its powers conservatively.
i.e. I believe in Federalism. Governments power should be in inverse proportion to its level. The lower the level, the more intrusive government is permitted to be (provided it stays within Constitutional boundaries), and even then, it should utilize great restraint.
I think that voluntary cooperation is preferable to coercion.
My problem with the Democratic party and its subsequent shift to modern liberalism or progressivism since the early 20th century, is that the principles upon which this nation was founded are no longer the guiding principles of the party.
You cannot honestly tell me that Jefferson would recognize the modern democratic party.
I cannot bring myself to support an institution that would bribe 51% of the population at the expense of the remaining 49%.
1936 marks the year that the Democrats became the party of "identity politics". This was the year that FDR decided that he would benefit certain sectors of the population at the expense of others; and democrats have not strayed from it since.
Have you ever noticed how the party that claims a more docile approach heavily relies on coercion for all of its programs?
Let me ask you, what prevents you from living a socialist's dream?
Its not conservatives...its not republicans...its not libertarians...
If you want to leave your home, join a commune and live in a tree house, I could care less. My only stipulation is this...DON'T MAKE ME PAY FOR IT! Don't threaten me with the use of force if I don't care to join you. But that is exactly what Democrats espouse.
And there is the clincher.
The answer for a democrat is ALWAYS, someone else has to pay! Everyone has to do "their" part. But its not "their" part. "Their" part is what happens in a free market, where you keep what you earn, and I keep what I earn. You don't have to pay me more than you think my labor is worth if you can find someone else to do it for less, and I don't have to take less if someone else is willing to pay me more.
I'm sorry, but if collectivist ideas were so great, they would win recognition on their own merits. They would succeed in a free market. Because contrary to popular opinion, the free market doesn't discriminate between labor and industry, between white and black, male and female, etc. the Free market discriminates on one thing, and one thing only...efficiency.
If your idea, product, service, etc. doesn't add up, it is discarded in favor of one desired by a greater number of consumers. This economic principle holds true for political philosophy.
Socialism, Collectivism, Fascism, etc. fail to work, not because the right people weren't in charge, but because they run contrary to human nature. They are contradictory, and therefore defiant of reality.
In the war between "hope and change" and reality...bet on reality.
Obama doesn't offer anything new...he offers the same thing his socialist predecessors did with new packaging. You may want to believe that we can live in a world where things are run "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need", but such a policy has NEVER worked through coercion, for one simple reason. Such a set up rewards inefficiency with fruits of labor it did not earn, and punishes the industrious by robbing it of its rewards. This philosophy incentiveizes laziness; and since you get more of what you reward and less of what you punish...you see where I am going with this.
Now I don't mind going point by point with you down the list and explaining in great detail why I think Obama is not up to the task, but before I debate an issue I like to know where the other person is coming form.
So I always ask a couple philosophical questions:
Do you subscribe to the law of non-contradiction?
And do you believe in such a thing as absolute truth and objective morale values?
If you do believe in these concepts then we can have a meaningful conversation.
If you take the post modernist view, then we don't have a chance. Because post modernists don't believe in objective truth, so therefore they cant have objective meaning.
Take care!
The Reaper
08-31-2008, 15:57
Jamber:
Not exactly using an unbiased source, are you?
TR
Red Flag 1
08-31-2008, 16:23
Jamber:
Not exactly using an unbiased source, are you?
TR
TR,
Me thinks you are being kind.
Nod to the Chef!
RF 1
Remington Raidr
08-31-2008, 17:27
How about:
1. McCain - opposes the right to kill babies for convenience.
Obama - supports the right to kill babies for convenience.
It's sad because it is true.:rolleyes:
Over at Freerepublic, someone wrote the following:
Obama wants to kill babies and raise taxes.
Palin wants to kill taxes and raise babies.
Do you think if I put that on a poster outside my house I'd get in some trouble with the two neighbors I've got who've just put out GINORMOUS Obama signs?:munchin
USANick7
09-01-2008, 00:29
Do you think if I put that on a poster outside my house I'd get in some trouble with the two neighbors I've got who've just put out GINORMOUS Obama signs?:munchin
Id say that's even more of a reason to put the sign out! :p