View Full Version : Army opens prep school for dropouts to fill ranks
BMT (RIP)
08-27-2008, 13:46
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080827/D92QJ8GO0.html
BMT
Slantwire
08-27-2008, 14:09
There were a couple kids in my OSUT class who had been to some Army program to get their GEDs before basic. "GED Plus," or something like that, I want to say it was at Ft. Knox? Didn't sound too different from this.
Idea sounds fine as presented - if the kids are serious about drilling down and completing, and serious about serving the country and the Army afterward. Reality? Time will tell, I suppose.
Sounds like an actual version of "Renaissance Man," a Penny Marshall movie starring Danny Devito. 1994.
Not a bad movie, good for the kids to watch, like "Remember the Titans" or "Brian's Song."
A young lad I know took a couple of wrong turns and dropped out. Wanted to join up but didn't have a diploma or GED.
Had to take his GED classes at the local TEC school and work at the same time.
I don't see much different other than 1 month pay for a private and a few uniforms for those that drop out.
PS - He got in and will be in Iraq this winter.
Red Flag 1
08-27-2008, 16:08
Seems like a win-win.
RF 1
Originally posted by CSB:
Sounds like an actual version of "Renaissance Man"
Life imitating art, even the location of this school is the same as the movie.
Kyobanim
08-27-2008, 17:07
I think it's a great idea. I can see it working great for all concerned.
People make mistakes, especially when we're young. This is a good second chance.
Can not hurt.... Might give some direction and another chance for some people.
BMT (RIP)
08-27-2008, 17:27
Anyone ever tried to train a CAT 3 or 4 soldier?
When the 3AD was formed and started training for deployment to Germany, all the trainee's were CAT 1 or 2 men. The 3AD was one great outfit when it went to Germany. The fourth year we started getting CAT 3 and 4 replacement's. Need I say more!
Our step-grandson is at Jackson ready to start Wednesday. They will be 2 step's ahead of most of the other trainee's when starting basic, 4 week's of DD and PT.
BMT
Ambush Master
08-27-2008, 17:29
I say Good On-Em!!! They are at least making something of themselves!!! I liked the ending of the article:
"Gaddis said he knows his students might have quit high school, but believes that shouldn't be held against them. He added that the school is a move to reach those who have been left behind, not to attract those who are less qualified or lower than the Army's standards.
"These kids may have quit at some point, but the big thing is, a lot of people have quit on them," Gaddis said. "We are not going to allow them to quit." "
Take care.
Martin
60_Driver
08-27-2008, 17:45
"These kids may have quit at some point, but the big thing is, a lot of people have quit on them," Gaddis said. "We are not going to allow them to quit." "
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this just looks like more of the Army's "failure is not an option" social engineering. Don't meet the standard? Need a piece of paper? No prob, we can give you one right over here...
Why require A GED if the Army is just going to give them one? Fer chrissake, give 'em the ASVAB to see where their abilities lay and slot them accordingly, make a GED mandatory for reenlistment or something. It's a GED, not a MIT degree in nanorocketry.
This is just more "50 points in each event to pass basic".
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this just looks like more of the Army's "failure is not an option" social engineering. Don't meet the standard? Need a piece of paper? No prob, we can give you one right over here......
This is from the article - "Recruits must score in the top half of the Army's aptitude test to qualify for the prep school and get two tries at a General Educational Development certificate. If they still can't pass, the Army will release them from their contract, Sanderson said."
Red Flag 1
08-27-2008, 18:33
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this just looks like more of the Army's "failure is not an option" social engineering. Don't meet the standard? Need a piece of paper? No prob, we can give you one right over here...
Why require A GED if the Army is just going to give them one? Fer chrissake, give 'em the ASVAB to see where their abilities lay and slot them accordingly, make a GED mandatory for reenlistment or something. It's a GED, not a MIT degree in nanorocketry.
This is just more "50 points in each event to pass basic".
Maybe I read it wrong, but I did not think the Army was giving the students anything. It would not be in the best intrest of either party to give an unearned diploma.
Not requiring a GED would lower standards. Why do that :confused:
My $.02.
RF 1
I say Good On-Em!!! They are at least making something of themselves!!! I liked the ending of the article:
"Gaddis said he knows his students might have quit high school, but believes that shouldn't be held against them. He added that the school is a move to reach those who have been left behind, not to attract those who are less qualified or lower than the Army's standards.
"These kids may have quit at some point, but the big thing is, a lot of people have quit on them," Gaddis said. "We are not going to allow them to quit." "
Take care.
Martin
AM,
If I may say so...Very well said Sir, IMVHO.
Holly
Ambush Master
08-27-2008, 18:58
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this just looks like more of the Army's "failure is not an option" social engineering. Don't meet the standard? Need a piece of paper? No prob, we can give you one right over here...
Why require A GED if the Army is just going to give them one? Fer chrissake, give 'em the ASVAB to see where their abilities lay and slot them accordingly, make a GED mandatory for reenlistment or something. It's a GED, not a MIT degree in nanorocketry.
This is just more "50 points in each event to pass basic".
This is from the article - "Recruits must score in the top half of the Army's aptitude test to qualify for the prep school and get two tries at a General Educational Development certificate. If they still can't pass, the Army will release them from their contract, Sanderson said."
Pete!!!
My thoughts exactly!!!
longrange1947
08-27-2008, 19:16
We have a brand new 2d Lt walking around the compound. He finished 2d in his class. He is 27 years old. Big deal right, but wait.
He was such a bad kid in high school they would not let him attend his own graduation. He was one step from jail when he deiced to run away and join the Army. In th Army he found himself and was given that chance to excell. He went to West Point Prep and the rest is history. West Point, Ranger, Airborne, and looking to Special Forces.
I say give them that chance, they will weed themselves out. Most are victims of the "let them do their own thing" fan club and never given the discipline required to function fully as an adult. Now they are getting it and finding themselves, no truly finding themselves not that "touchy feelly" left wing garbage of "Finding themselves"
OK, stepping away from the key board. :D
Ambush Master
08-27-2008, 19:42
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this just looks like more of the Army's "failure is not an option" social engineering. Don't meet the standard? Need a piece of paper? No prob, we can give you one right over here...
Why require A GED if the Army is just going to give them one? Fer chrissake, give 'em the ASVAB to see where their abilities lay and slot them accordingly, make a GED mandatory for reenlistment or something. It's a GED, not a MIT degree in nanorocketry.
This is just more "50 points in each event to pass basic".
As a "Rotor-Head", I hope that you have the Guts and Determination (Forget the Academic Standing!!!) to drive in through the Bullets-RPGs/Walls of Steel, to bring these guys out!!!
I served with several people that would fit the profile discussed above!! They performed admirably in Combat/In the Face of the Enemy and have gone on to be productive Citizens!!
CPTAUSRET,
Care to add to this Terry?
Like some of those mentioned in the story, I also left high school prior to graduation due to a less than desirable home situation. I joined the Army at 17 and was "encouraged" to obtain my GED by some of the most outstanding officers and NCOs with whom a young soldier could hope to serve. After leaving active duty, the inspiration I received in the Army encouraged me to obtain my adult high school diploma, an undergraduate degree and finally a law degree. I have been a practicing attorney for over 13 years and rarely a day goes by wherein I fail to thank God for the time I spent in the Army (both active and reserve). For the active duty and reserve officers and NCOs who frequent this site, your guidance and encouragement can truly change a young soldier's life.
Good to hear, now I just need to get a few more college credits in and I can join up as well, Although my circumstances are significantly different then the individuals about which the article is written.
Remington Raidr
08-27-2008, 20:39
I went to MEPS on my 17th birthday, a Saturday morning. I was in sunny San Diego and my 4th hour history teacher kept writing me up as UA, even though a couple of girls in the class told him I was in the Marines.
I looked him up after I got out of boot. My hairstyle made him look like a hippie.
I got my GED while at MCAS New River, got out, a BS in Criminal Justice, and then a JD.
Back in the day we had all types in boot. You either got your mind right or you got gone. Our series honorman was a gang leader from Philly. Just ONE day at Mote Platoon tightened him up.
Give 'em a shot.
60_Driver
08-27-2008, 20:57
Maybe I read it wrong, but I did not think the Army was giving the students anything. It would not be in the best intrest of either party to give an unearned diploma.
Not requiring a GED would lower standards. Why do that :confused:
Even in the civvie world, where academic credentials seem to be meaningful, for a GED the most important grades are often the "A for effort" and a minimum score on the standardized state tests.
I understand the point of requiring a GED. It shows a recruit has a certain level of education and, presumably, knowledge. But a GED, or a high school diploma for that matter, isn't much of a standard. Kinda like that 15-pound weight, or however much it is, that you have to lift over your head to pass the medical.
The ASVAB is a much better gauge of whether a person has the aptitudes required for an Army MOS. There are plenty of high school grads who don't make the minimum scores on it. Personally, I'd be more inclined to give an Army job to a guy with no GED but a good aptitude score, than a guy with a Master's who makes the minimum score.
If the Army is so hard up that we have to make a special school just to produce enough enlistees, then we need to lower the entrance standards. Notice I said entrance standards. If I had my way, and unlimited funds, the door would be wide open to just about any individual to try for any MOS he wanted, but the standards for qualification would stay the same. If your qualification standards are where you need them to be, it doesn't matter who comes in...just matters who comes out.
I know very well that the Army likes to see certain civilian educational qualifications in its members. It helps with relations with civilians if we can show certain academic credentials, kinda offsets the drag marks our knuckles leave. A bit. I joined with a HS diploma, had to get an Associate's before I came up for CW3, a Bachelor's before my CW4 board, and I'm nearly done with that Master's for CW5.
If the Army wants its EMs to have diplomas or GEDs, make it mandatory for a second enlistment. That second signature is where a troop becomes "professional" in the true sense of the word, IMO. First contract is a taste test.
Spending more Army money ( read: taking out another Chinese loan) to give special education *twice* to a bunch of people that may not even pass basic training, just so they have a piece of paper that lets them sign a contract, is dumb.
Mis dos centavos...
Ambush Master
08-27-2008, 21:54
Even in the civvie world, where academic credentials seem to be meaningful, for a GED the most important grades are often the "A for effort" and a minimum score on the standardized state tests.
I understand the point of requiring a GED. It shows a recruit has a certain level of education and, presumably, knowledge. But a GED, or a high school diploma for that matter, isn't much of a standard. Kinda like that 15-pound weight, or however much it is, that you have to lift over your head to pass the medical.
The ASVAB is a much better gauge of whether a person has the aptitudes required for an Army MOS. There are plenty of high school grads who don't make the minimum scores on it. Personally, I'd be more inclined to give an Army job to a guy with no GED but a good aptitude score, than a guy with a Master's who makes the minimum score.
If the Army is so hard up that we have to make a special school just to produce enough enlistees, then we need to lower the entrance standards. Notice I said entrance standards. If I had my way, and unlimited funds, the door would be wide open to just about any individual to try for any MOS he wanted, but the standards for qualification would stay the same. If your qualification standards are where you need them to be, it doesn't matter who comes in...just matters who comes out.
I know very well that the Army likes to see certain civilian educational qualifications in its members. It helps with relations with civilians if we can show certain academic credentials, kinda offsets the drag marks our knuckles leave. A bit. I joined with a HS diploma, had to get an Associate's before I came up for CW3, a Bachelor's before my CW4 board, and I'm nearly done with that Master's for CW5.
If the Army wants its EMs to have diplomas or GEDs, make it mandatory for a second enlistment. That second signature is where a troop becomes "professional" in the true sense of the word, IMO. First contract is a taste test.
Spending more Army money ( read: taking out another Chinese loan) to give special education *twice* to a bunch of people that may not even pass basic training, just so they have a piece of paper that lets them sign a contract, is dumb.
Mis dos centavos...
You did not OBVIOUSLY read or even more Obviously, DID NOT COMPREHEND, what I posted earlier!!!
With all due respect SIR, step back a few and re-read ALL OF THE ABOVE!!
I would highly suggest that you TURN ON YOUR SA!!! (SA = SITUATIONAL AWARENESS) and realize that you are amongst folks (on this Site) that not only TRAIN People that are TOTALLY uneducated, but will LEAD them into Battle and return to answer your inane posts/comments!!!
Have a VERY SF DAY!!!
.....The ASVAB is a much better gauge of whether a person has the aptitudes required for an Army MOS. .... Personally, I'd be more inclined to give an Army job to a guy with no GED but a good aptitude score, ......
From the article "Recruits must score in the top half of the Army's aptitude test to qualify for the prep school........."
Sigh
60_Driver
08-28-2008, 07:13
From the article "Recruits must score in the top half of the Army's aptitude test to qualify for the prep school........."
Sigh
Guys, I understand that.
My single point is this: We're spending money on people before they're even qualified to sign a contract, much less graduated basic training. Is that smart?
Drop the GED requirement to enlist if it's become a roadblock.
Use the ASVAB scores instead.
Spend money on them to help them complete their GED *after* they've completed basic and AIT. Make a GED mandatory for promotion/reenlistment.
And I'll bore you no more with my inanity...
Red Flag 1
08-28-2008, 11:07
Guys, I understand that.
My single point is this: We're spending money on people before they're even qualified to sign a contract, much less graduated basic training. Is that smart?
Drop the GED requirement to enlist if it's become a roadblock.
Use the ASVAB scores instead.
Spend money on them to help them complete their GED *after* they've completed basic and AIT. Make a GED mandatory for promotion/reenlistment.
And I'll bore you no more with my inanity...
Read the article again, please. This program is a lot more than a GED. These students are taking steps beyond the GED.
Really great program for the students. Better applicants to the military, or any where else for that matter. A true win-win!
RF 1
Originally posted by 60 Driver:
My single point is this: We're spending money on people before they're even qualified to sign a contract, much less graduated basic training. Is that smart?
Just an opinion, and with all due respect Sir, is it smart for the Army to pay 18X Soldiers for the SOPC prior to SFAS? I'd rather see the Army spend my tax money to obtain (for lack of a better term) "unconventional" personnel than on recruiting trinkets or other unnecessary items that do not increase our manpower for the current tumult we face. Is that not a primary mission for the people on this site you wish to converse with? Force multiplication? Back in my lane. Out.
greenberetTFS
08-28-2008, 13:25
I think it's a great idea. I can see it working great for all concerned.
People make mistakes, especially when we're young. This is a good second chance.
They didn't have anything like this when I went in....I was 17 and was a senior in high school.Got into trouble an was offered an opportunity to join the service or "?"
I did get my GED and after the service used my VA school benifit to go onto college and receive my degree in Mechcanical Engeering.This would never of happened if the service won't have given me a 2nd chance.....:D
GB TFS :lifter
CPTAUSRET
08-28-2008, 19:15
As a "Rotor-Head", I hope that you have the Guts and Determination (Forget the Academic Standing!!!) to drive in through the Bullets-RPGs/Walls of Steel, to bring these guys out!!!
I served with several people that would fit the profile discussed above!! They performed admirably in Combat/In the Face of the Enemy and have gone on to be productive Citizens!!
CPTAUSRET,
Care to add to this Terry?
Can do!
I can see merit in this program; unlike McNamara's 100,000.
This is one hell of an example!
"We have a brand new 2d Lt walking around the compound. He finished 2d in his class. He is 27 years old. Big deal right, but wait.
He was such a bad kid in high school they would not let him attend his own graduation. He was one step from jail when he deiced to run away and join the Army. In th Army he found himself and was given that chance to excell. He went to West Point Prep and the rest is history. West Point, Ranger, Airborne, and looking to Special Forces.
I say give them that chance, they will weed themselves out. Most are victims of the "let them do their own thing" fan club and never given the discipline required to function fully as an adult. Now they are getting it and finding themselves, no truly finding themselves not that "touchy feelly" left wing garbage of "Finding themselves"
OK, stepping away from the key board".
__________________
Hold Hard guys
Rick B.
If these guys want it badly enough to succeed, it's a win-win.
Dick Carmona was a high school dropout when he joined the Army...earned his GED...became an SF Medic...
http://www.hhs.gov/about/bios/sg.html
The program is arguably a solid social constructive idea. It also reinforces a standard that has existed with in the Army for years; and that is to foster an environment that will reflect/change the society at large. Some of the most recent social activism that has taken place and accepted as normal: integration; easily the most difficult and controversial. Not to mention the integration of women in combat roles as female pilots, medics, etc.
Environment is probably the most influential of all issues in an individuals development. An example could be the following: I have a niece being raised in the Bronx, a daughter being raised in Summit NJ, both are 12. Yet, the difference between the two; command of language, reading and math skills, are worlds apart. When asked what my niece wanted for her birthday she replied; “I want these new sneakers, their like..” when asking my daughter what she wanted, she asked for a gift certificate to Barns and Nobel. The priories are different because the parenting is different for each child, which is the enviorement in which they are raised. It a small example, but it can be projected that my niece has a greater chance of not finishing high school than my daughter. It does not imply that she lacks ability to succeed as much as the opprotunity to do so.
We are all in some way victims of our enviorement, a prep school administered by the Army affords these individuals, who scored better that 50% on the entrance exam, the opprotunity to overcome the obstacles placed before them. And if some of the examples stated above are indicative of the power to motivate; I think this social activism by that Army is right on point.
Red Flag 1
08-29-2008, 13:47
Dick Carmona was a high school dropout when he joined the Army...earned his GED...became an SF Medic...
http://www.hhs.gov/about/bios/sg.html
Take note 60 Driver!
RF 1
ZonieDiver
08-29-2008, 16:44
The program is arguably a solid social constructive idea. It also reinforces a standard that has existed with in the Army for years; and that is to foster an environment that will reflect/change the society at large. Some of the most recent social activism that has taken place and accepted as normal: integration; easily the most difficult and controversial. Not to mention the integration of women in combat roles as female pilots, medics, etc.
Environment is probably the most influential of all issues in an individuals development. An example could be the following: I have a niece being raised in the Bronx, a daughter being raised in Summit NJ, both are 12. Yet, the difference between the two; command of language, reading and math skills, are worlds apart. When asked what my niece wanted for her birthday she replied; “I want these new sneakers, their like..” when asking my daughter what she wanted, she asked for a gift certificate to Barns and Nobel. The priories are different because the parenting is different for each child, which is the enviorement in which they are raised. It a small example, but it can be projected that my niece has a greater chance of not finishing high school than my daughter. It does not imply that she lacks ability to succeed as much as the opprotunity to do so.
We are all in some way victims of our enviorement, a prep school administered by the Army affords these individuals, who scored better that 50% on the entrance exam, the opprotunity to overcome the obstacles placed before them. And if some of the examples stated above are indicative of the power to motivate; I think this social activism by that Army is right on point.
Before my current HS teaching job, I taught for four years at a charter HS at a Job Corps site. Most of my students were around 20-21 years old and had dropped out of HS and had many problems since. They had matured, realized they needed job training and education, and were anxious to obtain such. If I went into work early to grade papers, etc. I had to keep my lights off, because if the kids in the dorm saw them go on at 6 a.m. - they'd be over to get to work.
Some people mature later. Some people need to get away from the oppressive, less than stellar environments they are born into. That the Army is foresighted enough to have a program such as this makes me even prouder to be a US Army vet.
GratefulCitizen
08-29-2008, 23:42
It seems like the program is an effort to dance around a politically incorrect truth:
Intelligence and education are not the same thing.
Officially, the AVSAB isn't an intelligence test.
However, the more intelligent test-takers probably tend to score higher.
To quote TR:
We can make people stronger, faster, better educated, etc.
The only things we cannot do is to make someone smarter or give them a sense of ethics.
reference: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=221561&postcount=3
BMT (RIP)
08-30-2008, 05:46
Pvt X on the third day of basic. The company moved out of the classroom and Pvt X made this statement "Damn I quit school and joined the Army toget out of the classroom and what does the Army do but put me right back in a classroom".
I ask Pvt X to tell the platoon everything he knew about the Army and how he thought we could train him without using a classroom.
The next 7 weeks and 4 days Pvt X was quiet.
BMT
I joined under the GED plus program 5 years ago and have done alright for myself. Was accepted to West Point Prep myself but turned it down. Most MOSs in the Army don't require people to be a rocket scientist, but to be able to follow instructions, and eventually be able to lead. If programs like these are done correctly, we might get some quality guys in for little investment. I am all for spending the recruiting budget on something other than Army of One and $1 Billion for Army Strong.
The USMC has had discipline/education programs for dropouts like these for a while.
60_Driver
08-30-2008, 19:01
Take note 60 Driver!
RF 1
Indeed, it reinforces my point. A GED is worthless as a standard for entry into the military.
Abolish the requirement.
Help them after they're inside, instead of spending money on them before we'll even know if they'll pass basic.
You know what is pathetic? The unwillingness to reassess convictions; I understand the point, and it is well taken; however, the second level is retention in the long term. The program fosters an environment that is conducive to an individual’s development, a second chance. With out peer pressure of the home AO, and for that opportunity, for those involved. It’s a win win. The Army commits to a standard, the individual rises to it.
That said, I find it quite remarkable that a service organization such as the Army would invest in a program that did not foster, in an overt fashion, its goal of retention, but rather the wholeness of the individual in the program first.
Granted, the individual who completes the process will have an affinity for those who assisted their progress; as they should, but that is respect for the opportunity, not clever manipulation which enhances the long term advancement of the committed, or the Army seeking a return on its investment.
It is a program that states: we want soldiers that are intelligent enough to realize that they have a widow to change their lives, and be an asset to not only themselves, but those with whom they will be involved with, the program says: welcome to the 21st century. Be useful, understand that we will not only believe in you, we will help you complete your basic education requirement and ask nothing in return if you do not. Rather generous in my book; and a standard that is sure to rise, that someday will require a BA.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
09-01-2008, 09:02
My single point is this: We're spending money on people before they're even qualified to sign a contract, much less graduated basic training. Is that smart?
...
You mean like ROTC scholarships, recruitment of atheletes into the service academies, and slotting civilians into some of our senior service colleges? I think you can say that about many of the government programs but like all investments some pay off and some do not, there is always a risk. But without risk, there is no gain. If you look at some (many) high schools today, tell me what they produce other than kids without direction. These folks have a goal in mind which, in my simple way of looking at things, gives them a target for successful completion of the first part of what will become a continuing educational process. I think many civilian institutions could learn something about student motivation from those that get a chance and elect to get into this program. Just a thought.
Red Flag 1
09-01-2008, 09:32
Military members planning a career in the military have benchmarks to meet. Associate, Bachelors, Masters, and Doctoral completion. This has been true for enlisted and officer alike. The same holds true for civillian job advancement.
The junior Sen from Mass. offered an opinion not long ago, that either you went to school and got "smart"' or you could be sent to Iraq. Generally seen as a blunder on his part for the statement.
It would seem to me, IMMHO, that should the military lower the entry standards, we then agree with Kerry. I'm pretty sure the junior Sen from Mass. would jump at a chance to look a "little smarter".
RF 1
Help them after they're inside, instead of spending money on them before we'll even know if they'll pass basic.Before they have done a damn thing for this country, a recruit is issued uniforms, given vaccinations, a medical exam, eye exam, etc...before they have done a damn thing, they have been issued glasses, fed, and given a place to sleep...before they so much as touch a rifle, we've spent a lot of money on a recruit...should we charge room and board, make them pay for uniforms, glasses, medical care until they finish training?
A baseline education is as essential as glasses and dental work...it is as essential as uniforms and haircuts...
And let me emphasize the link between retention and opportunity...the first pair of new shoes my dad ever had were issued to him in basic...the first new clothes, the first underwear, the first new socks...he said he didn't know a chicken had anything other than a back or wings until he ate in a mess hall...Dad was willing to serve his country, willing to fight and perhaps, die for his country because of the way he felt the Army treated him when he enlisted out of the coal fields of Appalachia...he was grateful for the opportunity for the rest of his life...and he felt it was unwarranted for a skinny kid from Horsepen, Virginia to be "given" all that neat stuff...he never forgot it...he loved the Army, probably more than he loved his country...the uniforms, the food, the opportunity to do more than work in a coal mine made a very powerful first impression on an man that earned CIBs in WWII, Korea and Vietnam...
These people have the potential to be soldiers...they have the motivation...what they don't have, is a piece of paper granted by, in my opinion, a failed educational system...the Army is fixing what it can for what it needs...it is not the social engineering we saw under the Carter administration, where we pulled troops out of vital training to get their GED...if they have the damn thing before the get to the unit, it is one less training distractor for the chain of command to deal with...I remember leaving three or four guys out of my platoon back from an ARTEP because they needed to work on their GED...and we had no choice, because the Army had become a place for dropouts to get up to speed...I have no problem with that...but let's pay the freight up front, so when these guys get to units, they can be used like everyone else...
Posted by a former education officer of 1/509 IN...