View Full Version : Draganov accuracy helps?
sfmedicw9
08-24-2008, 12:54
First let me make clear I am not a long gun guy, so be gentle
I have 12 Draganovs that are sitting in my arms room that have been collecting dust for years
\
I taught a couple basic skills courses with them to some of my CAT support guys
Zero
Dis / Ass
S/O deployment
Urban Sniping
etc.
I understand the requirement for matched ammo but all I have to work with is standard 7.62 x 54 (520 cases of the stuff) soo thats what my biggest
limitation is.
What my question is , is are there any kits or replacement parts for these thing that would make them more accurate ? Right now I feel pretty lucky getting a kill zone hit at over 300 meters
If there are replacement barrels or better glass then whats on them now let me know.
If not you'll be able to pick them out of my trash can soon
The Reaper
08-24-2008, 17:51
A Dragunov is not really a precision weapon, but it is a lot more accurate than an AK.
That having been said, the chamber and barrel should be inspected by someone who knows what they are doing, and you will need to get the match ammo to get the max accuracy from them. I would also have someone take a close look at the scope and mounts to ensure that they are tight and tracking properly.
Best of luck.
TR
What my question is , is are there any kits or replacement parts for these thing that would make them more accurate ?
Right now I feel pretty lucky getting a kill zone hit at over 300 meters
If there are replacement barrels or better glass then whats on them now let me know.
If not you'll be able to pick them out of my trash can soon
300 M is not bad.. What models do you have? Soviet SVD, Chinese NDM-86, Tiger, Romak PSL... Love to see some pictures..
There are a couple things you can get someone to:
Take the flash hider off and put a target crown the barrel
Make up a bi-pod that uses the bottom of the sight/gas port block as the contact point
Lap the bolt lugs
Re-set the barrel and re cut the chamber to allow the head space on the shoulder rather than the rim
To improve the sights, get some Krebs Custom rear sight rails. They attach to the rear sight mount. Then bridge back to the stock trunnion, forming a ridged base for a WEAVER - PICATINNY based sight system. I think someone is importing Polish Tantal parts that are similar. The Krebs are for AK/AKM, may or may not fit, if not Krebs may custom build some specials.
The use some better glass..
http://www.krebscustom.com/PartsPages/KalashnikovParts.shtml
sfmedicw9
08-25-2008, 10:59
all soviet - which actualy was the reason i got those i figured they would be a little better than the others ive seen floating around.
I agree 300+ into the kill zone is indeed a good shot with these. Ive always grimmaced when they say Draganov "sniper" rifle
Even if i got "match" ammo for these things and donate my x54 stash to the aussies and their FNs what is a realistic expectation of these things as is and if i did invest in the above "fixes"
also that mount for the glass makes it difficult to match up glass
In the interest of full disclosure - i am no fan of anything eastern block but you work with what you got. look forward to the day when i can bulldoze all this commie crap
The Reaper
08-25-2008, 12:36
all soviet - which actualy was the reason i got those i figured they would be a little better than the others ive seen floating around.
I agree 300+ into the kill zone is indeed a good shot with these. Ive always grimmaced when they say Draganov "sniper" rifle
Even if i got "match" ammo for these things and donate my x54 stash to the aussies and their FNs what is a realistic expectation of these things as is and if i did invest in the above "fixes"
also that mount for the glass makes it difficult to match up glass
In the interest of full disclosure - i am no fan of anything eastern block but you work with what you got. look forward to the day when i can bulldoze all this commie crap
What FNs are the Aussies using that takes 7.62x54R?
TR
sfmedicw9
08-26-2008, 10:17
quite a mix of FNs
I have a few of the old egyptian FNs with arabic writing here that are 7.62x57 Im not a 100% sure on where they got theres but i think they have some that came from a French Foreign Legionaire who got them in of all places south america
SAFN ?? sound right? ive shot a lot of x54s out of the x57s Not for nothing but I wouldnt want to carry those suckers all day long - they have more steel in them than a VW Bus
The Reaper
08-26-2008, 10:57
quite a mix of FNs
I have a few of the old egyptian FNs with arabic writing here that are 7.62x57 Im not a 100% sure on where they got theres but i think they have some that came from a French Foreign Legionaire who got them in of all places south america
SAFN ?? sound right? ive shot a lot of x54s out of the x57s Not for nothing but I wouldnt want to carry those suckers all day long - they have more steel in them than a VW Bus
Not familiar with the 7.62x57.
I know that the FN-49 (or SAFN-49) was chambered for the 7x57 (7mm Mauser), 7.62x51 (NATO), 7.62x63 (.30-06), 7.65x53 (Argentine), and the 7.92x57 (8mm Mauser), but the FN-49 does not look much like the FN-FAL. I have owned two of them in 7x57. The Egyptians did buy the FN-49 in 7.92x57.
The 7.62x54R, which is rimmed, will not fit, function, or fire in any of the other rounds discussed. The 7.62x54R will not chamber in the 7.92x57. The much fatter case of the 7.62x54R will not fit into the chamber due to its larger diameter at the shoulder and base, and the rim is a lot larger than the bolt face of the 7.92x57, so it will not feed either.
Curious.
Nevertheless, the Russian arsenals claim (FWIW) that the standard 7.62x54R ammo is required to be sub 2.8 moa at 300m, and the Match version should be sub .9 moa. Clearly, the accuracy issue should be with the rifle or the optics and mount.
TR
sfmedicw9
08-26-2008, 20:57
.9 moa?? interested for sure
if i could get 4-5 k for duty that would be cool
as long as i have lot integrity i could pull out duty and training weapons and just zero with the duty lots on duty guns hmmmm
I hope I am not digging up too old of a post here...
There is a great reference book that was translated by maj Gebhardt that you can get from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Official-Soviet-SVD-Manual/dp/1581600321/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221363469&sr=8-1
This is a translation of the Soviet MOD manual and its pretty good on how to run this weapon... not on sniping.
Next question... since not all 7.62x54R ammo is created equal... and some is better for this rifle than other...whereas others are just usless, What kind of ammo do you have? Confirmed Soviet 7.62x54R?
Reason I ask... is that some of the Russian stuff will allow you to have more than reasonable groups with the SVD... where as the Chinese stuff is useless. You would be better served throwing it at your target.
Hope this helps.
Y-
There is a gun author by the name of David Fortier. He did an article on what specific ammo and how to identify it from the Russians that ran seriously MATCH SICK results. His testing using a bonafide Russian Dragunov that came in the early 90's was that with this SPECIAL match ammo he was getting serious sub-MOA groups compared to 3-4 inches with regular 762x54 ammo.
It's out there and there was a thread in another board where a Marine unit member found this special match ammo in the cases in Fallujah.....
The Reaper
10-03-2008, 07:42
There is a gun author by the name of David Fortier. He did an article on what specific ammo and how to identify it from the Russians that ran seriously MATCH SICK results. His testing using a bonafide Russian Dragunov that came in the early 90's was that with this SPECIAL match ammo he was getting serious sub-MOA groups compared to 3-4 inches with regular 762x54 ammo.
It's out there and there was a thread in another board where a Marine unit member found this special match ammo in the cases in Fallujah.....
I find it hard to believe that any Dragunov is capable of sub-MOA accuracy, regardless of the ammo.
If someone can produce a Dragunov that can consistently put 10 rounds under a MOA at 100 meters or more, rather than cherry picking a few lucky three round groups, I would be amazed. The tolerances are just too loose and the action not rigid enough, IMHO.
TR
It's the ammo dude, believe me.
And Fortier doesn't dicker around with 3 hole groups. He plays with 5 hole groups and sometimes goes all the way to ten to get a more accurate result.
Any rifle can reach there.
A good article talked about making the FAL series rifles near sub-MOA.
One noted author found the holy grail for the FN-FAL series rifles including the Inch Commonwealth series and that his rifles including those he worked with was completely happy and in the bliss with Hornady TAP 150 grain ammo.
Author swore all day on it and his results ranged from .50 to 1 MOA using the TAP ammo.
Seriously...the Dragunov is pretty capable...it's just the ammo.
Like any weapons platform.....your mileage may vary but in the end....ammo brings consistency no matter what and from various sources and one notable gun writer...the Russian Match ammo MADE, researched and developed specifically for the Dragunov is the missing link to making it an true sniper rifle.
7N1 sniper load and the 148 grain LPS ball. The 7N1 is a 152 grain FMJBT designed specifically for use in the SVD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54mmR
Here;s his article on the subject
http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/RussiasSniperLoad.htm
Here is the Russian criteria for groupsize...The Russian LVE cartridge factory states the accuracy of their common cartridge (57-N-323C) to be less than 24 cm at 300 m (0.8 mrad; 2.8 MOA) at R100[5] - "R100" being the groupsize of three series of 20 shots at 300 m. Their sniper cartridges (7N1, 7N14) are stated less than 8 cm at 300 m (0.3 mrad; 0.9 MOA) at R100
Like I said..it's not 3 shot...1 shot or some mickey mouse bench trick.
http://www.lveplant.ru/boevpat_eng.htm
Here's the ammo plant that makes it. Last I heard...it can be purchased quite easily in Europe and Finland. The one I have for my collection was purchased from a gentleman in Sweden.
Used it on a Romanian PSL belonging to a friend and it was quite simply.....amazing.....well worth the 40 bucks I spent to get it here from overseas....
The Reaper
10-03-2008, 09:10
"Dude"
I was involved in a comparative research study of the Dragunov vs. the M-21 in 1983. The AMU assisted me in my research. I shot the Dragunov quite a bit.
The ammo, along with the weapon/optics, and the shooter, are the critical components of accuracy testing. Each one affects the accuracy capability in an aggregate manner, and a sub-MOA shooter, with a sub-MOA load cannot reliably shoot sub-MOA with a 3 MOA weapon.
Our findings were that the Dragunov itself lacks the capability (in both design and manufacture) of being a sub-MOA rifle. It may be possible for a Dragunov specialist to take the rifle, tear it apart, and rebuild it with an aftermarket barrel, tight chamber the rifle for the specific round, reinforce the receiver, hand fit and lap the bolt, tune the trigger, weld on the scope mount, install a better piece of glass, etc., and produce a weapon that MIGHT be capable of a MOA for a brief period, much like an M-21. The weapon, as manufactured, is NOT a tack driver, regardless of the ammo.
FWIW, I have met David Fortier, and have no issues with him. OTOH, his job is to write articles that sell magazines.
BTW, I previously cited the same ammunition numbers that you did earlier in this discussion. Have you read all of the posts on this thread?
TR
yes...I've met Fortier myself a couple of times, he was a good friend of my Uncle's best friend. Charles Karwan, while Fortier is not the noted sicked gun nut like Karwan, I like his writings and various articles.
I salute you for what you said, all I am saying from my limited experience is that the Dragunov is capable....but I AM not gonna say..that it's a PALMA rifle it in itself nor is it better than our system with the m24 and m40 series and even the m21.
I could bet you to the moon that your experience back in 1983 would have been vastly different if you were using the sniper ammo made(7N1) SPECIFICALLY for that rifle or were you guys using it or just standard ball or special hand loads ?
Curious on that.
I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes or do a measuring contest on our wieners......for some special watering hole but I do congrat you for being a participant in that 1983 incident.
I'm just saying it's capable of sub or near sub MOA if the right ammo is used. I've seen it only once and that was in Hungary and the British Marines that came to Hungary brought their lovely AI setup...which still danced around the Drag despite the ammo.
While there are far better play sticks to use in the field...if the Dragunov is all I got....it'll do decently....
I rest with humble regards...
The Reaper
10-03-2008, 18:13
We used the sniper grade ammo, as well as even handloading for it.
What might be sub-MOA in a US bolt gun chambered for it, or even in a Mosin-Nagant, will not hold MOA with a Dragunov.
A Dragunov is better than an AK, but not better than any of the US bolt guns, or even the 7.62x51 semis, IMHO.
TR
Gene Econ
10-04-2008, 19:28
I salute you for what you said, all I am saying from my limited experience is that the Dragunov is capable....but I AM not gonna say..that it's a PALMA rifle it in itself nor is it better than our system with the m24 and m40 series and even the m21.
I'm just saying it's capable of sub or near sub MOA if the right ammo is used. I've seen it only once and that was in Hungary and the British Marines that came to Hungary brought their lovely AI setup...which still danced around the Drag despite the ammo.
While there are far better play sticks to use in the field...if the Dragunov is all I got....it'll do decently....
I rest with humble regards...
prdubi:
Why is the Dragunov all you have?
What type of outfit are you an armorer for?
Gene
Ive had better luck with PKM ammo threw the SVD then with standard ball ammo see if you can get yourself some black tip AP ammo thats used in the PKM machinegun.
but like TR said you are not going to get 1 MOA out of that gun.
I am not an armorer just a simple REMF IT geek for an engineering unit.
I was just saying that IF the Drag is all I got, I would still use it but hunt for the 7n1 ammo.