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uscav_scout
08-22-2008, 20:30
I wasn't sure whether to post this here, or in the PT / H2H forum, I decided to post it here because I wanted more of a medically oriented response (18Ds, PAs, and MDs (although any response will be gladly appreciated, for I am a green horn and want to learn)), Mods do as you see fit.

I am going to try and paint a complete yet concise picture, as to facilitate with responses.

I have been working myself pretty hard for the past six months or so, in preparation for a deployment to Afghanistan and eventually selection. One thing that I have began incorporating in to my workout cycles prior to a good recovery week, was a week of "tempering" as I like to call it.

"Tempering" is when I cut my caloric intake to my Basal Metabolic Rate(BMR) on day one, for me that is about 1900 calories (5'10", 170, 21 years, male), I gradually reduce my caloric intake on each of these days by about 100 calories, so by day seven, I am consuming 1200 calories.

During these days, most of my calories come from protein (whey, fish, or lunch meat), and the carbs I do get come from a few slices of whole wheat bread that is I swear is a close relative to sandpaper, never more than 600 to 800 calories. I do my best to eat a bag of leafy greens, usually spinach every day, light on the calories, high in nutrients.

My workouts during this week are still decent. I run everyday, distance will vary from 4 to 7 miles, at a nice aerobic pace (This is extremely difficult for me, because I love and live for lactic acid threshold training, 80% - 90% MHR for an hour or so, at pace where if I run any faster I'm going to have to slow down in the next minute). I don't lift during this week, but I do a lot of calisthenics, situps, pushups, chinups, pullups, and dips (10 sets till failure, 1 minute rest between sets, 3 minutes between exercises), Then I'll cap it off with a good five minutes of flutter kicks. The numbers I put up on day one are great, but by the last day, they are pretty bad compared to the first.

Last night was the last day of one of these weeks, and I went a little crazy on the run, I clocked in just over 10 miles, on 1200 calories, 440 of which were carbs. I hit a nice wall around mile 7 and got a pretty crazy runner's high for the rest of the run. I spent the rest of the run fantasizing about eating... (All I wanted to do was eat a two pound bad of mandarin oranges when I got back) I laid down in the yard for a good 20 minutes post run, waiting for the high to wear off (It was 0230 in a college town, I got some weird looks from some of my fellow students). I drank water, ate a bag of spinach and went to bed.

Motivations

Mental Conditioning/Toughening - Its easy to run/workout while you are well fed, it becomes more of a mental endeavor for me when I don't get to eat.
Fat Loss - I shed a lot of fat during one of these weeks (got to be some muscle too....)
Reality Focused Training - Being in the Army for three years, I have learned that it very rarely do we get to do our jobs under ideal conditions (lack of sleep, food, water, supplies, etc). To me this reinforces this.
SFAS - From what I have heard and read, I like to think that this type of training is going to help me be successful.
Confidence - I like knowing that I can operate on so little, so if shit hits the fan over there and I need to hike back to the FOB with little or no food, I can rely on this.
Personality - This type of training fits in with the type of person I am, competitive, never content, proactive, etc. I like it.



Am I crazy for doing this?
Is there any real physical benefit to doing this to my self?
Is there any danger in what I am doing (long term or otherwise)?
Would you say in your opinion that I am wasting my time? Destroying my gains by doing this?
Would you advise against this type of training?
Any other comments.

I have a pretty good understanding of how the body works, so feel free to be as technical as you want.

If you just want to ream me for being stupid too, that will be greatly appreciated too. I am just trying to push the envelope, and I want to see if I am on target, or overzealous.

GratefulCitizen
08-23-2008, 01:24
Motivations

Mental Conditioning/Toughening - Its easy to run/workout while you are well fed, it becomes more of a mental endeavor for me when I don't get to eat.
Fat Loss - I shed a lot of fat during one of these weeks (got to be some muscle too....)
Reality Focused Training - Being in the Army for three years, I have learned that it very rarely do we get to do our jobs under ideal conditions (lack of sleep, food, water, supplies, etc). To me this reinforces this.
SFAS - From what I have heard and read, I like to think that this type of training is going to help me be successful.
Confidence - I like knowing that I can operate on so little, so if shit hits the fan over there and I need to hike back to the FOB with little or no food, I can rely on this.
Personality - This type of training fits in with the type of person I am, competitive, never content, proactive, etc. I like it.



Am I crazy for doing this?
Is there any real physical benefit to doing this to my self?
Is there any danger in what I am doing (long term or otherwise)?
Would you say in your opinion that I am wasting my time? Destroying my gains by doing this?
Would you advise against this type of training?
Any other comments.

I have a pretty good understanding of how the body works, so feel free to be as technical as you want.


Disclaimer:
-I am not a medical expert.
-Just someone who did many different forms of athletic training for the better part of 20 years and helped to train a few others.


It is unclear what your training goals are.

What are the specific, definable goals you have in mind?
Do you have an effective way to measure progress?
What is your timeline?
From whom/from where did you assemble your training regimen?

Leozinho
08-23-2008, 09:25
You can read intelligent discussions of intermittent fasting (IF) on the forums at www.performancemenu.com.

What you are doing isn't IF, but the effects may be similar.

The folks at performancemenu are not so interested in the mental aspects of this sort of training, but seem to have a good grasp of how your body reacts.

uscav_scout
08-25-2008, 02:09
Sorry about taking so long to respond, I was traveling back home from civilian training down in the old Orange Republic.

GC, thanks for responding, I am going to do my best to answer your questions fully.


What are the specific, definable goals you have in mind?


Two fold as I said before, my deployment to Afghanistan, and passing SFAS. I will break these down further.

Deployment (I want to survive, lead, complete my mission)

Survive

There is a direct correlation between physical fitness and survival rate. This is especially true for cardiovascular fitness and blood loss.
A higher level of fitness may make it easier for me to continue fighting in an injured state.
A higher level of fitness pre-injury, can lead to a faster, more complete recovery.

Lead

I am going to be expected to do more as a leader, that may involve carrying more weight, etc, therefore physical fitness is paramount.
I may be a fairly "new" E-5, but I plan on leading by example, one part of that (amongst several others) will be physical fitness.
Physical fitness prepares the body for dealing with stress, I need to have every advantage I can as a leader (and a soldier), so I can complete my mission and bring home my soldiers.

Complete My Mission

I see physical fitness as a form of risk management. Increasing my physical fitness will be the key to completing my missions. And since I have no way of knowing what lie ahead, I want to be as prepared as possible.
I want to be an asset to my leadership. I want it to be known, through my actions that I am capable of performing my duties. I feel that there is a correlation with physical fitness in this.



SFAS - I want to get selected!!!!
NOTE:I have heard and read a lot in regards to what selection may entail, I have done my best to set goals to prepare myself to meet these challenges (foreseen or unforeseen)

Run a 10k in under 40 minutes
Score over 100 points in each APFT event
Two separate sets of 25 chinups and 25 pullups from a dead hang
A set of 40 dips
Grip two 75lbs dumbbells for 10 minutes
Ruck

12 miles in three hours w/75lbs
6 miles in one hour w/50lbs
18 miles w/75lbs


Any other suggestions would be appreciated

Any thoughts?


Do you have an effective way to measure progress?

Yes I do, I track everything in excel. I am a data junkie when it comes to my physical fitness.

Weight Lifting - I graph the number of repetitions completed per set per lift. Each workout become as a separate series on a graph. Its awesome watching my central nervous system recover around set 7 and watching the completed reps spike for two sets.
Cardio - Track time, distance, and HR. I like seeing time and HR decrease for a specific distance


Any thoughts?

Disclaimer:
What is your timeline?

Without violating OPSEC. I am MOBing within the next 45 days. I will continue to workout as I do now until boots on the ground in the next 100 days. I will probably drop the calorie restriction depending on training tempo (mission first) while at MOB site. Tour will be a typical length. I will drop into a maintenance/lower intensity mode while over there due to OPTEMPO. 20th group has tryouts twice a year, fall and spring. I will probably get back just after they have them in the fall of 09', therefore will have another six months to get prepared, if I feel ready, I'll pull the trigger. But right now Afghanistan is my 25m target.

Any thoughts?

Disclaimer:
From whom/from where did you assemble your training regimen?

German Volume Training - 10 sets of 10 per lift, at 60% 1RM. 1 minute rest in between sets. 3 Minutes between lifts. One lift per body part. Increase weight when able to do all 10 sets. Change lifts every cycle. Chest & Back, 2 days off, Arms & Shoulders 1 day off. My legs are too destroyed from cardio to do this lifting.
Ruck - 2 to 3 times a week. Weight & speed before increasing distance.
Run - A combination of what I have read in: Run Faster, Competitive Runner's Handbook, and Slow Burn.
Pushups - Do them on the days I lift.
Abs - Hit them hard everyday.
Chinups and Pullups - Twice a week, five sets till failure, 1 minute off between sets.
My Hell Week - I created it. I have read a lot on working out, and have a few years of practical experience, along with some general knowledge gained through college biology/physiology courses. I like it because its hard and it makes food taster better.

May seem like a lot, but I get through it faster than you may think. Lifting takes around 40 minutes, run is usually an hour or so. Abs 10-20 minutes. Rucking varies.
Any Thoughts?

Any questions, comments from anyone would be greatly appreciated. I thank you all in advance.

uscav_scout
08-25-2008, 02:10
Leozinho,

I'll check it out and let you know what i think. Thanks for the reply and link.

Razor
08-25-2008, 13:06
My thought is you're working much, much harder than I ever did to get through Ranger School, SFAS, or SFQC, but then I went through the last easy class for each.

If you're rucking with 75lbs dry weight (before adding water that you'll drink during the ruck) on a regular basis, I foresee overtraining and stress injuries in your future. The SFAS prep workout was created with data from lots of folks that tried and either were or weren't selected, and analyzed to create an effective program that wouldn't lead to overuse injuries in the long term. Ignore its guidelines at your own risk.

10 sets of 10 reps at 60% RM sounds like a bodybuilding routine for hypertrophy, rather than for raw strength gains. If you're comfortable with it, by all means drive on. Folks much smarter than I that are seeking strength and power gains seems to gravitate towards Olympic lifts. They also seem to be able to endure both weight training and cardio training for their leg routines. Remember, there's a significant amount of endurance work in SFAS/SFQC.

If your fitness regimen is what your body requires to maintain a high degree of fitness, or what you need to do to feel mentally prepared and comfortable, then power to you. I wish I had your energy.

Red Flag 1
08-25-2008, 16:19
uscav,


Have you talked with your Doc about this at all?

Have you thought of talking with a Clinical Dietitian about this yet ?

If not, why not?

Best of luck.



RF 1

GratefulCitizen
08-25-2008, 23:53
Any Thoughts?

Any questions, comments from anyone would be greatly appreciated. I thank you all in advance.

Your posts caught my interest because of some experiences with overtraining.
Your enthusiasm and extensive training regimen reflect a pattern which I have frequently seen (and done a few times).

I'm trying to stay in my lane here, so my response will be narrow.

Some basic principles:
-More is not better, better is better.
-Your body does not get stronger from exercise, it gets stronger due to the changes your body makes after being stressed from exercise.
(it gets stronger when you rest)
-Injuries delay conditioning.
-It takes as long as it takes. Allow more time than you need in your timeline.

Right now, you're 21 years old and feel invincible.
Your body adapts very quickly and heals quickly.
However, you could be laying the seeds for long-term damage, as well as putting yourself at unnecessary risk for short-term setbacks.


The only advice I have to give: Make sure you schedule rest!

Rest should be daily, weekly, and between training cycles (active rest).
("Active rest" is typically 1-2 weeks without organized training after an 8-12 week training cycle)

If you haven't had sufficient rest/recovery, postpone (not "skip") the next workout.
The only thing you accomplish by working out when your not sufficiently recovered is to burn calories.
Make sure to allow for the occasional postponed workout in your training timeline.

Michael Phelps and Jerry Rice worked out six days a week...and rested on the seventh.

Good luck, train smart.

cornelyj
09-02-2008, 13:26
Grip two 75lbs dumbbells for 10 minutes

The last couple times I have gone to the gym I have tried this and try as I may I cannot for the life of my get past about 6ish minutes. Whats your best so far? and any other reasons you do this besides grip strength for rope climbing and/or your trap muscles?
Any QPs have comments or advice on this exercise?

uscav_scout
09-02-2008, 17:31
The last couple times I have gone to the gym I have tried this and try as I may I cannot for the life of my get past about 6ish minutes. Whats your best so far? and any other reasons you do this besides grip strength for rope climbing and/or your trap muscles?
Any QPs have comments or advice on this exercise?

I can consistently hit 8.5 minutes, my best is 9:13.

You will not succeed in this feat by doing every/one set till failure, it will take forever for you to achieve the goal I have set of ten minutes this way (although this type of training is a component of my workout).

When I first started doing this type of endurance training, I'd do one set till failure. Then the next time I would strive to push myself longer than the last time previously achieved. This worked for about two weeks, and then I stopped seeing consistent gains. On the overall I would see an upward trend, but my times would oscillate above and below this "trend" line".

So I stepped back from the problem and reassessed the situation. One of the first questions that came to mind was, How am I going to get good at holding this weight for ten minutes, when I can only hold it for five minutes at a time? How am I going to get good at holding a weight for ten minutes, when I only hold it for fiveish minutes a day? To solve this quandary, I resolved to do the exercise for at least 10 minutes everyday I was doing the lift. But how does one do this, if they can only do it for five minutes at a time? Keep reading.

From what I have read, and my experience, if you want to do something for a long period of time, or consecutively for a lot of reps there should be two parts to your workout to achieve this quickly.

You want to be able to do an exercise for X mins/reps, and can do one set of a maximum of Y mins/reps

1. You should do at least X reps/mins of an exercise in a work/rest circuit consisting of manageable "sets"....

and

2. You should do at least X rep/mins of an exercise in a work/rest circuit consisting of (X/Y) + 1 sets, or more as to ensure more than X minutes are executed (this depends on how much time/reps you loose each set).

For example....

I want to be able to dead hang from a bar for 10 minutes (X=10 minutes). I can currently hold myself up there for 3.5 minutes (Y=3.5 minutes).

Since Y is so low, I would start something like this.

1. 10 sets of 1 minute on the bar, with 1.5 minute rests in between sets.

2. (X/Y) = 10 / 3.5 = 2.86 round up to three, then add 1 for four sets till failure, my rest interval would something around 3-4 minutes, you want to make a "full" short term recovery.

I would alternate between these two workouts for that body part, taking the appropriate rest.

Progression is fairly simple.

1. Once 10 sets of 1 minute on the bar, with 1.5 minute rests in between sets can be done, you have two options, increase exercise time, or decrease rests moving towards 10 minutes straight no rest. I would do a combination of both.

2. As your maximum time increases, your number of sets will decrease. I would also decrease rest time to achieve 10 minutes.

Why in the hell would I try to hold two 75 pound dumbbells for ten minutes?

A litter has four handles, a set of BDUs filled with sand may weigh 240 pounds. 240 pounds / 4 (people) = 60 pounds. Throw in an extra 15 pounds for the dynamic loading required to carry such a monstrosity cross country. 10 minutes because I figure that will be the majority of a mile, depending on the pace.

I mean this is what I did in WLC (see my post in general discussion), but the course manager told us it was SFAS esque (he was a QP), along with all the other shit he put us through, haha.

I just want to be prepared.

Note: In the next day or so, I am going to address all previous posts, and what Razor and I have talked about. I am changing my direction slightly, and I want to share what I have learned and what I am going to try next.

cornelyj
09-05-2008, 18:45
so whats the new direction?
got any new work out goals you wanna give me?