View Full Version : Texas Schools and Guns
It can only happen in Texas. Danm I love Texas
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080815/ts_nm/texas_guns_dc
HOUSTON (Reuters) - A Texas school district will let teachers bring guns to class this fall, the district's superintendent said on Friday, in what experts said appeared to be a first in the United States.
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The board of the small rural Harrold Independent School District unanimously approved the plan and parents have not objected, said the district's superintendent, David Thweatt.
School experts backed Thweatt's claim that Harrold, a system of about 110 students 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth, may be the first to let teachers bring guns to the classroom.
Thweatt said it is a matter of safety.
"We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said. "It's just common sense."
Teachers who wish to bring guns will have to be certified to carry a concealed handgun in Texas and get crisis training and permission from school officials, he said.
Recent school shootings in the United States have prompted some calls for school officials to allow students and teachers to carry legally concealed weapons into classrooms.
The U.S. Congress once barred guns at schools nationwide, but the U.S. Supreme Court struck the law down, although state and local communities could adopt their own laws. Texas bars guns at schools without the school's permission.
(Reporting by Jim Forsyth in San Antonio; writing by Bruce Nichols in Houston, editing by Vicki Allen)
How does it go??
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.", Lao Tzu
Good on 'em, more should (but won't) follow their example.
Defender968
08-15-2008, 18:56
I think it's a great idea as long as they're responsible and willing to use their weapon should the situation arise. I would however like them to have a little extra training on top of your basic concealed classes were it up to me, just for their protection. Hell if I were their local police chief I'd offer to do a free class, give them some range time, try to get them into the mindset of firing from cover if possible, I'd also give them a short class on the legal ramifications of the use of deadly force and at the same time try to instill in them the fact that once they've neutralized the bad guy/guys, should it come to that, that they need to be very compliant when the PD shows up. With the extra training hopefully the good guys would have all their basis covered and with a little luck, should the unthinkable happen, none of them would accidentally get shot.
Recent school shootings in the United States have prompted some calls for school officials to allow students and teachers to carry legally concealed weapons into classrooms."
I agree with the teachers and also agree they need more than the basic conceal carry training but as far as students carrying I strongly disagree.
But it is amazing with all that has happened with school shootings how some schools still have zero security. In the last four year I have moved twice and my teenage daughter has had to change HS and because of my job I have visited several other HS and I'd say 7 out of the last 10 schools I could walk in or get buzzed in and roam the halls without anyone challenging me what so ever.
I think it's a great idea. Teachers should not only be permitted to carry, but encouraged to do so. Having some training - particularly with regard to scenarios involving a bad guy with a student hostage, and some solid shoot-don't shoot training would be even better.
With regard to students carrying...a Texas CHL requires that the holder be 21 years of age or older. That implies higher education - and, given the size and nature of today's campuses, I believe students should be permitted to carry there as well. Perhaps they, too, should be given some opportunities for additional training.
students
I agree with the teachers and also agree they need more than the basic conceal carry training but as far as students carrying I strongly disagree.
I think the students in this context are in collage. There have been several articles about students advocating that those with valid permits be allowed carry. I first read about it shortly after the shooting at VT back in 2007. If only ONE person had been armed, some of the 32 lives lost could have been saved..
I think the students in this context are in collage. There have been several articles about students advocating that those with valid permits be allowed carry. I first read about it shortly after the shooting at VT back in 2007. If only ONE person had been armed, some of the 32 lives lost could have been saved..
Yes I agree with college students that are at least 21yrs of age and have certified training. My other daughter just turned 21 and I'm looking at purchasing a Glock 26 or something similar for her to conceal/carry and she knows she must complete a certified course before I do so. But you do gotta love Texas...
GratefulCitizen
08-16-2008, 11:37
I think the students in this context are in collage. There have been several articles about students advocating that those with valid permits be allowed carry. I first read about it shortly after the shooting at VT back in 2007. If only ONE person had been armed, some of the 32 lives lost could have been saved..
Many would-be rampage shooters have been stopped by unarmed men.
The problem is mindset as much as lack of a weapon.
People have been conditioned to react meekly when they are threatened.
THIS IS COMPLETE BULL!
Always fight back.
Appeasement encourages/escalates criminal behavior and defers the problem to the next victim(s).
ZonieDiver
08-16-2008, 12:10
A bill in the Arizona Legislature to allow teachers to carry weapons on high school campuses failed to pass last year. They did, in their wisdom, change a law that had prohibited even LEOs from carrying their weapons on community college campuses - or allowing the security there to be armed.
As a teacher - for a long time - I can assure you that on my campus there are not many other teachers I'd like to see carrying a weapon, no matter how much training they receive.
As someone mentioned, it is often easy for a person to enter a HS campus. Our police SRO said once that there were around 30 entry portals on our campus. People leave gates open often. Fences can be easily scaled in the back - where bushes have been allowed to screen visibility. We have lockdown procedures - but they fail to take into account many possible scenarios. For instance, two years ago, a suspicious package arrived in the Admin building. It was decided to start lockdown, but it occurred at lunchtime, and there were NO procedures as to where kids were to go, or which teachers would go where to monitor, etc. An announcement was made to go to the bleachers at the athletic fields - but not all areas of campus can hear the loudspeakers. Few teachers showed up to monitor - many standing around like the "sheeple" they are. But for the good-nature and willing compliance of the great bulk of our students, the few involved in making sure they were "safe" would not have been able to control the situation.
Flash forward to now - the problem of what do do if something occurs at lunch, or during class change, has STILL not been addressed by Admin. At our evening school, on one building of the same campus - during hours of darkness - only two security guards are present, and one must contantly man the main gate. Admin closes a blind-eye, and will - until "something" happens.
tom kelly
08-16-2008, 12:18
I think it's a great idea as long as they're responsible and willing to use their weapon should the situation arise. I would however like them to have a little extra training on top of your basic concealed classes were it up to me, just for their protection. Hell if I were their local police chief I'd offer to do a free class, give them some range time, try to get them into the mindset of firing from cover if possible, I'd also give them a short class on the legal ramifications of the use of deadly force and at the same time try to instill in them the fact that once they've neutralized the bad guy/guys, should it come to that, that they need to be very compliant when the PD shows up. With the extra training hopefully the good guys would have all their basis covered and with a little luck, should the unthinkable happen, none of them would accidentally get shot.
As far as the Police Chief offering classes, Consider this The Police Chief in San Francisco has not been to a gun range to qualify with HER weapon in 5 years,this is in violation of Ca. State Law. Chief Fong is a liberal bureaucrat who is above the LAW. Second, As far as "a little extra training and the will to use a weapon should the need arise" It is more than just training it is your mindset and your SA that should be in condition 1 while you are armed. If you are involved in a shooting resulting in injury or death, call the police AND MORE IMPORTANT CALL YOUR LAWYER. Defer answering any questions about the shooting untill your GOOD CRIMINAL ATTORNEY is by your side. Remember the police are not your friend there to help you, they are there to gather evidence and statements that they will present to the District Attorney who will decide if you should be charged with a crime.A CCW and the use of deadly force have huge ramifications, economic,social,and psychological and political. Just My .02 Regard's, tom kelly
Defender968
08-17-2008, 10:35
As far as the Police Chief offering classes, Consider this The Police Chief in San Francisco has not been to a gun range to qualify with HER weapon in 5 years,this is in violation of Ca. State Law. Chief Fong is a liberal bureaucrat who is above the LAW. Second, As far as "a little extra training and the will to use a weapon should the need arise" It is more than just training it is your mindset and your SA that should be in condition 1 while you are armed. If you are involved in a shooting resulting in injury or death, call the police AND MORE IMPORTANT CALL YOUR LAWYER. Defer answering any questions about the shooting untill your GOOD CRIMINAL ATTORNEY is by your side. Remember the police are not your friend there to help you, they are there to gather evidence and statements that they will present to the District Attorney who will decide if you should be charged with a crime.A CCW and the use of deadly force have huge ramifications, economic,social,and psychological and political. Just My .02 Regard's, tom kelly
What I meant by "little extra training" is on top of a basic CCW class which in my mind is not adequate for this type of scenario, if you're going to have armed teachers I'd like them to realize the full ramifications of that decision because as you said they are huge. I'd also like them to have a fighting chance in a gun fight, after all that is ultimately the reason to carry a concealed weapon, to use it to defend one’s self and others, and the CCW class is not going to provide them with that chance, they need better training and to be in the proper mindset when they leave the house with that weapon strapped on, especially when they're going to be in a school with kids. Locally the only organization that's probably going to be able and willing to do that is the local PD, is it an optimal situation, no, but it's probably the best they'll have, and it is completely feasible.
As for the police not being your friend you are also correct, and should there be a shooting at school and a teacher has to draw and use the weapon they've brought, first as I said I want them to win the engagement, and then I want them very specifically trained on what to do after the engagement is over, that way some poor officer doesn't have to live with killing the good guy for the rest of his/her life because the teacher didn't realize the cops can't tell a teacher from a criminal in that circumstance. That is something that can be ingrained into someone’s mindset, but it requires training, and they have to know it way in advance of things going down.
Even as a LEO I realized that if I had to shoot someone I wasn't going to make a statement until I'd talked to my lawyer, in today’s litigious society that's just the way it is. LEO's know any time they use force there's a good chance they will be sued, and if they have to use lethal force we all know we will be sued no matter how righteous the shooting was.
It's not right, but it is the way it is.
GratefulCitizen
08-17-2008, 13:47
So the school administration and teachers have no idea what they're doing for some of these instances...? When I was in high school, we had a situation where there was a bomb threat. The school's response? Herd everyone into the auditorium. Now me and quite a few other students thought this was a ludicrous idea, I mean if there's a bomb threat in the school, put everyone into the auditorium...!? If the threat is real, what if the bomb is in the auditorium...!?
I thought maybe that there was another reason they did this that we were not aware of (and maybe there was), surely they wouldn't be stupid enough to put all the students into an area where we could be blown up, but now I'm not so sure...
This would help to expose the person who likely made the bomb threat and would discourage repeats.
Make the students continue to do their schoolwork, preferably in an uncomfortable environment, and their is less incentive to make a threat in order to avoid school.
My parents were career public school teachers.
This scenario happened in Cortez, Colorado in the early '70s.
Bomb threats were made.
Once the gym was determined to be safe, the students were herded in there to continue classes until the rest of the school could be cleared.
The same student kept turning up absent after the threats (wanted to go home after lunch).
Guess who was discovered to be making the threats.
Defender968
08-17-2008, 16:48
Just pondering, but if teachers can carry in the schools, what's to stop some crazy students from, say, sneaking up on a teacher and thwacking them on the back of the head with a crowbar or something, and then stealing their weapon...?
I carry every day, and my wife knows only because she knows I don't leave the house without it, other than that even in a T-Shirt and shorts you'd never know it. So long as you are cognizant of the weapon, how/were you wear it and choose a concealable weapon no one should ever know they are carrying, so unless every teacher is carrying the students should never know who to whack.
ZonieDiver
08-17-2008, 19:42
Just pondering, but if teachers can carry in the schools, what's to stop some crazy students from, say, sneaking up on a teacher and thwacking them on the back of the head with a crowbar or something, and then stealing their weapon...?
That is precisely why I wouldn't want most of my colleagues to carry, no matter the amount of "training" they had!