View Full Version : Lawyer in NGSF
Meridian
08-11-2008, 11:24
Good afternoon,
When I joined this forum several years ago, I was a second-year law student interested in NGSF, and more particularly, the REP-63 program in Massachusetts. I decided to finish law school, and I've since passed the Massachusetts Bar Exam and the Patent Bar Exam. I have been practicing law (in a "big firm") for almost two years, and I enjoy it very much. But I still want to join NGSF (I have both simple and complex motivations, so feel free to PM me if you want more info). I've done a lot of research about NGSF and REP-63, but there is still one area that I haven't been able to learn very much, namely, the practicality of being an NGSF soldier and a civilian attorney at a big firm. If anyone could point me in the direction of an NGSF solider (either active or retired) who also practices law, I would really appreciate it. Other sources of relevant information would also be appreciated.
Thank you,
Ben
P.S. One thread I found particularly interesting, especially for law students: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15877
The Reaper
08-11-2008, 12:15
Some things cannot really be done well at the same time.
As a friend of mine recently learned, if your employer can get by without you for months or even years at the time, he may begin to question why you are employed there.
If you find that your work can be easily passed off to others and quickly resumed once you return, then you may be able to work something out.
My understanding was that legal work was not like that.
Good luck.
TR
My background is not in law, but I spent some time in law school and quite a bit of time at McKinsey and Goldman, which pose similar challenges.
If you try to stay on the partner track at a big firm simultaneously, I think that you are setting yourself up for failure at two things. It is easy to underestimate the logistical challenges of all this from the outside looking in. There will be delays between your schools, sometimes long and frequently they are moving targets, making it hard to plan your committments on the civilian side. Employers tire of this quickly, especially in professional service firms where you will quickly progress from being a novelty to a nuisance.
If you are ready to move in-house, it might be more workable and you'll benefit from whatever the employer's general attitude is toward the NG.
If you are entrepreneurial, ensure that your business can run without you or that you work on a project basis, so that you can transition in and out with a clear mind. Hoarde cash and prepare yourself to go through the "start up" phase over and over again. Look for low-touch ways to maintain relationships while away from your home base. LinkedIn, Facebook, ASW are great for this.
If you are married or engaged, she'd better be the kind that would volunteer herself if she were male. Serving in the NG is different than active duty in a lot of important ways, but probably nowhere more so than the area of family support. She will not be on base with women who are going through the same things while you are deployed, your kids will not be in school with peers whose dads are also gone. I have a lot of divorced friends.
I am not trying to discourage you, but this is a huge commitment and a life changing event, not a hobby. It is not a part-time job - it is a second career than runs concurrent with your primary one. It is not the same decision for a professional as it is for an hourly worker. I made the leap two years ago and do not regret it, but it has complicated life to an extent far greater than I originally anticipated.
Be ready for your plan to fail and to drive on anyway.
Everything already mentioned,,
Plus,,
I was in C/3/20th SF(A) FLNG 19771-1976 and had a different problem..
An A$$Hole boss socialist anti-war vet. He served one yr in the AF and managed to get out as an E2, on a medical discharged. He reminded me of Kerry. For two yrs I had to put up with his negative remarks about week-end warriors and his anti-war dribble. Made my life miserable until I had a chance to move to a new management team that appreciated those that served. I was lucky to work at a large site (8,000 people) were most were patriots.
I add this as you may have to deal with partners that are left leaning. You are in Kennedy/Kerry Land?? Even in a large office, you may not fine the support you and your family will need when you deploy.
Good Luck
As a small business owner, single parent and reservist, I found the following to be true in regards
to the commitment expected from your peers. They expect you to preform and execute your job regardless of your other obligations. And that applies to both work or duty.
Personally, the business required supervision and the childern a father. That said, I would like to offer you this thought: you are a lawyer. You will always find employment, but you may never have the opprotunity again to experience and actualize the dream that has possessed you for sometime now; joining the NG and attending the Q. If not now, then when?
Do not be that guy who finds himself sitting on the bench muttering: I could of, but for....
If you try to stay on the partner track at a big firm simultaneously, I think that you are setting yourself up for failure at two things. It is easy to underestimate the logistical challenges of all this from the outside looking in. There will be delays between your schools, sometimes long and frequently they are moving targets, making it hard to plan your committments on the civilian side. Employers tire of this quickly, especially in professional service firms where you will quickly progress from being a novelty to a nuisance.
I'm currently in the course and this is exactly what I've experienced. Due to an injury I will end up being here (assuming successful completion) almost twice as long as had been expected. When I tried to contact my boss a while back to give him an update on my status and to let him know that I would not be returning anywhere near my original expected graduation date and I couldn't get him to return phone calls oremails. I essentially went from being that "novelty" to that "nuisance".
To make matters worse, my boss was a friend who knew I was leaving my previous job because it became clear I was going to end up in a career quagmire due to my decision to enlist. We probably spent 90% of my interview talking about what my military future was going to entail and now I wonder what my status will be when I return. I know he can't "fire" me due to my service but he can certainly make things pretty miserable and not just from a workload standpoint (in my case, no workload is a bad thing) but from a salary standpoint.
I am not an attorney but as a CPA who has worked in both public accounting and transaction service firms, I think there is a strong parallel. We both have projects with indefinite deadlines that most likely require stable client relationships, at some point we are expected to bring business in to the firm and excelling at more than just your "job" are the keys to getting ahead.
I don't know you from a hole in the wall so I can't judge your motivations but with hindsight, and knowing that I may have done irreparable damage to my current in its previous form, I can tell you this...fuck em'. Again, assuming successful completion of the course, I will some day be able to look back and know that I had experiences that will mean more to me than closing a deal could ever mean. Money and "success" are what matters most to them. And while they matter to me, I think training an indig to shoot his bad-guy neighbor in the face will bring me alot more happiness. At some point in the future my teammates will look to me to cover their six while at the same time one of my current coworkers is mulling moving to the shop down the street because they have better parking and a Starbucks coffee machine. Who would you rather drink a beer with 30 years down the road?
In conclusion, (I apologize for the rant...guess I needed to vent), you have to weigh all the factors and decide matters to you. In the atmosphere that you are currently in, you will most likely do serious harm to your career. Facts are facts.
Blame the CPA in me for stating the obvious but it is certainly possible to do both (law and NG) just maybe not in your chosen field of patent law (my gf is a patent examiner in DC so I have a basic knowledge of the process).
D9 (RIP)
08-12-2008, 00:04
It's as simple as this: two things cannot occupy the spot of "top-priority" in your life at the same time. If you are setting off down a path in law that will demand your all to succeed there, then do not kid yourself that you can work SF in as second fiddle. The teams do not just need guys who can pass the Q-course. We need people who will commit to the success of the team beyond. That means time and priorities with your schedule.
I left a somewhat upwardly promising high-powered career in finance to come and do this. Man, was I right to leave! I could never have reconciled the commitment both required. Being in ARNG SF is a tricky deal. On the surface one gets the idea that you can have your cake and eat it too. You can't.
There are people out there, in the Guard, with tabs, who do not deploy or go to schools or serve any valuable purpose to their organization because they have other priorities. We do not need more people like this. Being an SF soldier is a commitment. The level of commitment is static whether you are active or not. It just depends on whether or not you are going do your training time M-F like a regular job, or try to cram it in on weekends or when the baby is taking a nap.
Either way the extent of the commitment is dictated not by whether you are active or guard, but rather by the nature of the job. I am not now and have never been an attorney, but truthfully trying to build a career in the law and be a worthwhile detachment member at the same time seems a little detached from reality.
Good luck. FWIW.
Good afternoon,
When I joined this forum several years ago, I was a second-year law student interested in NGSF, and more particularly, the REP-63 program in Massachusetts. I decided to finish law school, and I've since passed the Massachusetts Bar Exam and the Patent Bar Exam. I have been practicing law (in a "big firm") for almost two years, and I enjoy it very much. But I still want to join NGSF (I have both simple and complex motivations, so feel free to PM me if you want more info). I've done a lot of research about NGSF and REP-63, but there is still one area that I haven't been able to learn very much, namely, the practicality of being an NGSF soldier and a civilian attorney at a big firm. If anyone could point me in the direction of an NGSF solider (either active or retired) who also practices law, I would really appreciate it. Other sources of relevant information would also be appreciated.
Thank you,
Ben
P.S. One thread I found particularly interesting, especially for law students: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15877
My Brother is a Sr Partner in a big law firm so I called him and had a discussion last night about his perspective. He is a very strong supporter of the military and SF since I was in it for my whole career.
1st He said if you already had your training and was basically a drilling NG SF Type he could support you 100% and short of Long term Deployments into the box assist in juggling the case load. He has 3 lawyers in the firm that are NG/Reserves. Deployments into the box is supportable with planning but that starts to put a strain on the firm. He said many of his peers do not see this the same as he does and start putting up obstacles for the lawyers.
2nd If you are just starting training (Pipeline) you will be gone off and on for 1-3 years depending on your training schedule and you ability to Pass each Phase and not get injured. This begins to be counter productive to the reason you were hired and is a greater burden on the firm.
Partner Track - If your intentions are to make Partner he said that you would probably have 0% chance if you did your training in your current firm. If you already had the training then you would have a 30+% chance to make partner.
A partner is a person that dedicates himself to the Firm and has a commitment to the Firm.
It basically boils down to what are your goals in life. SF or Partner?
What is your Firms opinion of your possible venture into the NG SF world? Have you discussed this in depth with your Boss?
If you decide to go in he recommended that you start training with full discloser to the Firm. Do your best to work with them until you feel that it is starting to weigh heavily on them. Prior to getting to a bad point resign from the Firm on Good Terms and keep training and complete the school. After completion start looking for a Good Firm that can work with you and your other chosen Profession. Law Firms are there for one thing "Making Money by Billing Hours" If you are not a Worker you are not going to advance and you will be set to the side......
Just our 2 cents hope his perspective helps a little.
He is really good at his job but he has no time to enjoy life. He is a bigger workaholic than I am. I could not do it. Give me those 24x7 operational days with nothing to do on my off time except play with the wife and kids.
If yo are single this might be easier since a a single person you can live on little to nothing and sleep on about anything.:munchin
HardRoad
08-12-2008, 08:51
It comes down to this:
BLUF: Being in an SF unit is not the typical "one weekend a month, two weeks a year" NG commitment. You probably can be a lawyer and a SF NG soldier at the same time, but it won't be easy, and there will be some sacrifices along the way.
The first issue you have is training - what, realistically, is your firm going to think when you disappear for a year or more? Especially since the odds are good that soon after that, you'll find yourself on a year-long deployment. They can't fire you, but unless they're exceptional, and exceptionally supportive, you won't be advancing much further with them.
Assuming you make it over that hurdle, there will be the odd "special skills" course that will take anywhere from a week to ten weeks every few years (or more often), in addition to your regular commitments.
Plus, typical ATs are three weeks, not two, and drill weekends can often be three days.
With today's optempo, you can expect to deploy one out of every 3-4 years.
So, as most people here have noted, you won't be burning up the partner track at a big law firm. You'll be the guy who will be at drill when the brief has to be ready Monday.
If you can figure out how to manage your career and your personal life to meet the commitment you'll be making, then fine, But go into it with eyes open, and don't kid yourself about what your getting into. There's a reason most SF guard guys have jobs as cops, firefighters, paramedics, AGR, career ADSW and contractors.
I tried to juggle a fast-track career path moving up the ladder in a Fortune 500 company and being in guard SF. The final straw was a 4 month school leading into a year long deployment. I could have stayed with the company after that, but it was pretty clear that my career was stalled where it was. I ended up taking a pretty significant pay cut to work for a company that provides support to DoD - most guys where I work are ex-military, with a good smattering of ex-SF, so its a lot more conducive to what I do.
I'd strongly advise you to make the decisions about what kind of sacrifices you're willing to make upfront, instead of mid-career. If you're not willing to make those kinds of trade-offs, then NGSF probably isn't a good move for you.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Roguish Lawyer
08-12-2008, 09:05
In my firm, you could not do it even as an associate. Why not go the JAG route?
Blame the CPA in me for stating the obvious...
I love it....as a former CPA, that may be an occupational hazard. :D
Anyway, I believe you have received some very thorough and good advice. I think you should also consider the possiblity of working for companies like Triple Canopy or other PMC's where both your legal and SF experience can be beneficial.
Your instincts related to your priorities are pointing you towards something which is very important. Follow your instincts because in the end you will not regret it.
You will always find employment, but you may never have the opprotunity again to experience and actualize the dream that has possessed you for sometime
I think the Chef has identified the right ingredients once again.
D9 (RIP)
08-12-2008, 15:22
In my firm, you could not do it even as an associate. Why not go the JAG route?
It is also worth noting that it is only BARELY possible to have over 6,800 posts on this website and be an attorney at the same time. :D
Roguish Lawyer
08-12-2008, 15:52
It is also worth noting that it is only BARELY possible to have over 6,800 posts on this website and be an attorney at the same time. :D
LOL
It is also worth noting that it is only BARELY possible to have over 6,800 posts on this website and be an attorney at the same time. :D
He is billing his time here as Professional Consultations.......:D:p:D
Meridian,
I am starting my third-year of law school this week. I, too, have long had a desire to tryout for SF, especially with my sights on NG (20th SFG). I have spoken with many current and former SF guys. I have also spoken with many civilian legal employers. government employers (mostly District Attorneys), and many JAGs. What I have learned is that no matter with how many people I speak, they cannot give me the answer. It just boils down to asking yourself how much are you willing to sacrifice. All I know is that it will be extremely difficult to successfully practice law as a civilian and be SF.
I just finished a two month internship with Army JAG - overall a great experience. The SJA sat me down before I left. Having heard of my plans to tryout for SF, he advised me against it - actually, he flat out said, "don't do it, don't do it, don't do it." He told me that I was a better asset to the Army as a JAG using the skills I learned in law school. I was told that if wanted to get real hooah, which I obviously do, I could try and get slots for Airborne and possibly even Ranger school. He said if I wanted to get deployed and get some downrange experience that it would be no problem. I am currently asking myself whether I could better serve my country and my family as a JAG or as SF. I know I could be a great JAG, but I am selfish and I want the hooah. If I could get attached as a JAG to a high-speed unit and attend some of the high-speed schools, I would most probably go JAG, as I could serve my country, better support my family, and still sit in the rocking chair in my later years able to reminisce on some pretty cool experiences. The thought that keeps kicking me in the back of the head is, "we need more combat guys, more boots on the ground." It's a tough decision. I would suggest, however, at least taking at look at JAG - perhaps your same motivations can be fulfilled through taking a different path.
I am currently researching the possibililty of getting into high-speed schools as a JAG. If you are interested, I will let you know what I find out. Either way, best of luck to you.
The Reaper
08-14-2008, 11:51
I have known exactly two JAGs who were SF qualified who were not prior service SF enlisted.
They both went through in the old days when that was permitted.
The SFQC is an MOS producing school, and is not intended to entertain anyone's Walter Mitty fantasies. Sounds like some people have watched too many episodes of JAG, and want to be a SEAL, a fighter pilot, and a lawyer.
The JAG Corps is organized and staffed to produce lawyers to meet the Army's needs. Unless you are assigned to an Airborne unit, you have no need for Airborne School. A few get to go because the skill is needed and the school is short. Very few JAGs will get to go to Ranger School, because it is not needed, the school is long, and people get hurt there.
I wanted to be an astronaut and a cowboy at one time, but made a reality check, decided what I really wanted to do, and did it.
I recommend that others do likewise.
I stand by my earlier comments. You are not going to be practicing law at a "big firm" for very long whilst going through the pipeline, much less while making operational deployments for seven months at the whack. If you have six years to take off, join the Army as an 18X, take your shot, and either become an SF soldier or an Infantryman till your ETS back to a legal career. If not, stay where you are and be happy.
Best of luck, either way.
TR
Absolutely, unless you are assigned to an Airborne unit, you have no need to go to Airborne school. I was told that upon commissioning a JAG gets to pick his top three assignments and that the Army is pretty good with working with new JAGs to situate them with one of the three. If I am in the top of my JAG class and in top physical condition, I might stand a good chance at being placed with a high-speed unit, no? I am seriously asking - I have been told so many different things - a COL SJA told the above.
Yes, I have watched too many episodes of JAG, but you have to admit...it would be pretty cool to be a JAG/SEAL/fighter pilot even if it's only possible in dream land;)
The Reaper
08-14-2008, 12:48
Absolutely, unless you are assigned to an Airborne unit, you have no need to go to Airborne school. I was told that upon commissioning a JAG gets to pick his top three assignments and that the Army is pretty good with working with new JAGs to situate them with one of the three. If I am in the top of my JAG class and in top physical condition, I might stand a good chance at being placed with a high-speed unit, no? I am seriously asking - I have been told so many different things - a COL SJA told the above.
Yes, I have watched too many episodes of JAG, but you have to admit...it would be pretty cool to be a JAG/SEAL/fighter pilot even if it's only possible in dream land;)
You do not need to be an SF soldier to be a legal advisor in an SF unit.
The UCMJ is the same throughout the Army.
TR
Absolutely, unless you are assigned to an Airborne unit, you have no need to go to Airborne school. I was told that upon commissioning a JAG gets to pick his top three assignments and that the Army is pretty good with working with new JAGs to situate them with one of the three. If I am in the top of my JAG class and in top physical condition, I might stand a good chance at being placed with a high-speed unit, no? I am seriously asking - I have been told so many different things - a COL SJA told the above.
Yes, I have watched too many episodes of JAG, but you have to admit...it would be pretty cool to be a JAG/SEAL/fighter pilot even if it's only possible in dream land;)
Key word is Needs of the Army. Yes everyone that goes to ROTC and West point and Doctors & Lawyers get to gave your 3 choices. That does not mean you get any of them. Timing, Timing, Timing ........ If there is not a Position Open you just do not get it. I will tell you also that New Jags normally do not get more senior assignments in SOF Units. They are far and few between and they need JAG's that have experience to deal with the non standard problems that will pop-up. You will need to do a few years in a division then put in for a SOF slot if one is open and corresponds with your departure date. If you are at Ft Bragg, in 18ABC or 82 Airplane Gang you are in a better position to slide into one of these positions. There is a JAG Mafia and you need to get the secret hand shake before moving up. Just my take on it after having a few JAG friends at Bragg.
Oh Guess what it is really hard to waste a SF or other SOF specialty school on a non SOF guy today.... The old days of every NBC officer, JAG, DOC going to the Q Course and Scuba and Halo school are over........
Just my 2 cents
I'm a civilian lawyer in Guard SF. I think it's possible to have a successful legal career and to be a contributing member of a Guard ODA. There are tradeoffs, as the previous posters have said, and the compatibility of law practice with military service depends a lot on what type of law you do and on the institution and individuals you work for.
I'm happy to discuss specifics with the originator of this thread, or with any other lawyers or law students considering NG SF.
Ive been practicing law here in MA for 14 years. I only wish in hindsight that I stayed in group. Law is blind but SF is the "Quiet profession". Just ask Team Sergeant.:munchin
Meridian
08-22-2008, 09:50
I just wanted to thank you all for your thoughtful responses. Your replies (and private messages) have provided me with more useful information on this topic than any other source. I hope this reply doesn't have a chilling effect on this thread, but I wanted to let you know that I've really appreciated your feedback. Thanks again.