View Full Version : Predator Pilots Suffering War Stress
I'm not sure WTF to do with this, but I think there is a big problem in Isle # 3??? This reads like some sort of sick joke?? Are we going award PTSD Purple Harts for troops that never leave home???
Hovering under my desk,, reaching for the TFH (tin foil hat) & my meds...
Predator Pilots Suffering War Stress
http://www.military.com/news/article/predator-pilots-suffering-war-stress.html?col=1186032310810
August 08, 2008
Associated Press
MARCH AIR RESERVE BASE, Calif. - The Air National Guardsmen who operate Predator drones over Iraq via remote control, launching deadly missile attacks from the safety of Southern California 7,000 miles away, are suffering some of the same psychological stresses as their comrades on the battlefield.
Working in air-conditioned trailers, Predator pilots observe the field of battle through a bank of video screens and kill enemy fighters with a few computer keystrokes. Then, after their shifts are over, they get to drive home and sleep in their own beds.
But that whiplash transition is taking a toll on some of them mentally, and so is the way the unmanned aircraft's cameras enable them to see people getting killed in high-resolution detail, some officers say.
In a fighter jet, "when you come in at 500-600 mph, drop a 500-pound bomb and then fly away, you don't see what happens," said Col. Albert K. Aimar, who is commander of the 163rd Reconnaissance Wing here and has a bachelor's degree in psychology. But when a Predator fires a missile, "you watch it all the way to impact, and I mean it's very vivid, it's right there and personal. So it does stay in people's minds for a long time."
He said the stresses are "causing some family issues, some relationship issues." He and other Predator officers would not elaborate.
But the 163rd has called in a full-time chaplain and enlisted the services of psychologists and psychiatrists to help ease the mental strain on these remote-control warriors, Aimar said. Similarly, chaplains have been brought in at Predator bases in Texas, Arizona and Nevada.
In interviews with five of the dozens of pilots and sensor operators at the various bases, none said they had been particularly troubled by their mission, but they acknowledged it comes with unique challenges, and sometimes makes for a strange existence.
"It's bizarre, I guess," said Lt. Col. Michael Lenahan, a Predator pilot and operations director for the 196th Reconnaissance Squadron here. "It is quite different, going from potentially shooting a missile, then going to your kid's soccer game."
Among the stresses cited by the operators and their commanders: the exhaustion that comes with the shift work of this 24-7 assignment; the classified nature of the job that demands silence at the breakfast table; and the images transmitted via video.
A Predator's cameras are powerful enough to allow an operator to distinguish between a man and a woman, and between different weapons on the ground. While the resolution is generally not high enough to make out faces, it is sharp, commanders say.
Often, the military also directs Predators to linger over a target after an attack so that the damage can be assessed.
"You do stick around and see the aftermath of what you did, and that does personalize the fight," said Col. Chris Chambliss, commander of the active-duty 432nd Wing at Creech Air Force Base, Nev. "You have a pretty good optical picture of the individuals on the ground. The images can be pretty graphic, pretty vivid, and those are the things we try to offset. We know that some folks have, in some cases, problems."
Chambliss said his experience flying F-16 fighter jets on bombing runs in Iraq during the 1990s prepared him for his current job as a Predator pilot. But Chambliss and several other wing leaders said they were concerned about the sensor operators, who sit next to pilots in the ground control station. Often, the sensor operators are on their first assignment and just 18 or 19 years old, officers said.
While the pilot actually fires the missile, the sensor operator uses laser instruments to guide it all the way to its target.
On four or five occasions, sensor operators have sought out a chaplain or supervisor after an attack, Chambliss said. He emphasized that the number of such cases is very small compared to the number of people involved in Predator operations.
Col. Rodney Horn, vice commander of the 147th Reconnaissance Wing at Ellington Field Joint Reserve Base near Houston, said his unit went out of it way to impress upon sensor operators the sometimes lethal nature of the job. "No one's walking into it blind," he said.
Master Sgt. Keith LeQuire, a 48-year-old sensor operator here, said the 163rd asks prospective sensor operators whether they are prepared for the deadly serious mission. "No one's been naive enough to come in to interview but not know about that aspect of the job," he said.
Unlike Soldiers living together in the war zone, the Predator operators do not have the close locker-room-style camaraderie that allows buddies to talk about the day's events and blow off steam. But many Predator operators at Creech employ a decompression ritual during the long ride home, said Air Force Lt. Col. Robert P. Herz.
"They're putting a missile down somebody's chimney and taking out bad guys, and the next thing they're taking their wife out to dinner, their kids to school," said Herz, a Ph.D. who interviewed pilots and sensor operators for a doctoral dissertation on human error in Predator accidents.
"A lot of them have told me, `I'm glad I've got the hour drive.' It gives them that whole amount of time to leave it behind," Herz said. "They get in their bus or car and they go into a zone - they say, `For the next hour I'm decompressing, I'm getting re-engaged into what it's like to be a civilian.'"
Col. Gregg Davies, commander of the 214th Reconnaissance Group in Tucson, Ariz., said he knows of no member of his team who has experienced any trauma from launching a Predator attack.
Himself a Predator pilot, Davies said he has found the work rewarding. The Arizona Air National Guard unit flies Predators in both the Iraq and Afghanistan war zones. It has often provided protection for American convoys, and its personnel have seen insurgents planting roadside bombs.
"If we can have an effect there where we can take people out, that's a real plus in terms of saving American lives," Davies said. "Our folks look at it as they're in the fight, they're saving lives. They don't feel too bad about that."
Check out our PTSD resource page.
© Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Stress is Stress and needs to be dealt with but........
They do not have the luxury of the Fighter guys of drop and run. They do have to see the results and assess the damage they do. Well they are in the military and that is what we do. Hell no one ever asked me if I understood that there were lethal missions when I went to Infantry school. They may need a different pipeline for their operators of the sensors. Hell I bet you could get a lot of SF guys to go TDY and drop bombs in support of their Fellow QP's. Let the AF fly and we can be the bad guy that puts the bomb down the stove pipe.......... We already have to pull the trigger, do BDA and sty around the area after the Opn.
AF We are here to Help..............to relieve your stress :munchin
Have you seen the graphics on these video games?
Stay safe.
Have you seen the graphics on these video games?
Guy,
Good point,, back when they started the UAV programs, they actually looked for HS kids that had "game" aptitude. Remember the movie 1984 "The Last Starfighter".
In his wildest dreams Alex never suspected that tonight he would become...The Last Starfighter
They wanted someone who could handel the violence, while being able to work in a 3D World with the spacial acuity needed to fly these things..
I'm not trying to down play in-your-face violence,, it's bad and needs to be dealt with,, it's just that the left will be pounding on this as a anti-war topic...
All we need is one of these kids to go off the deep end,,
"Pvt 1st Class xxx, a Senior AF UAV pilot, goes xxx after flying xxx UAV missions over xxx" (fill in the xxx...)
My initial comments were meant to be obliquely satirical. After our long thread on PTSD & PH, this was a little disturbing..
Have you seen the graphics on these video games?
Stay safe.
Very graphic to say the least, but they games lack one crucial perspective, the sounds of agony, desparation and suffering. When gaming I found sitting in front of screen the most stressful.
Having had one experience with such sounds, I can say that of that entire experience the sounds still bother me.
My point, I personally would find the detachment of a screen much easier than being on site..
Firebeef
08-08-2008, 09:51
Stressful.............I'm sure
PTSD??? I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag. If'n I'm wrong, come visit me in Hell.
The Reaper
08-08-2008, 10:54
I agree.
PTSD for non-combatants.:rolleyes:
What about people who watch a lot of violent movies or video games?
TR
greenberetTFS
08-08-2008, 10:59
Stressful.............I'm sure
PTSD??? I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag. If'n I'm wrong, come visit me in Hell.
I totally agree with Firebeef....The bullshit flag needs to be dropped....Visit me in Hell also....:boohoo
Team Sergeant
08-08-2008, 11:04
Simple, give the CONTROL to those that have no problem with killing the enemy.
General George Patton would roll over in his grave if he knew about this article.
Team Sergeant
I totally agree with Firebeef....The bullshit flag needs to be dropped....Visit me in Hell also....:boohoo
Would you like me to hold the door or close it on the way in?? :D
Much agreed on the whole "PTSD" $hit. I'm about to buy hip waders since it seems to be getting deeper. I'm guessing a follow on bitch would be the need for HFP or Save Pay since they are "in the fight".
OK buddy, me too :rolleyes:
A new AF related injury for the VA to treat - PTHD (Post Traumatic-less Hemorrhoidal Disorder) for those who fight the war in air-conditioned vans without being too hungry, too tired, too hot, too cold, too dirty, too thirsty, too sore, too wet, or wearing boots that are too tight or being too scared? Give me a break. :rolleyes:
UCAV - you call, we bawl! :boohoo
Richard's $.02 :munchin
I swear sometimes I am actually embarrassed to be an AF member on this site. I too have to say I called BS when I read this article. My brother was an F-16 pilot dropping bombs on Afghanistan his first turn out. His second was dropping bombs on Baghdad. His third he was the commander of a UAV detachment in Iraq. I am sure at some point in time what you do becomes stressful, hell at some point in time all of us become stressed out doing what we do during wartime. BUt to in anyway compare what these folks are doing (albeit important) to what the guys on the ground are dealing with is simply ludicrous.
I would love to have one of these "warrirors" sit down with my son, the Marine who has done 2 tours to Iraq, one of which being in Fallujah, and compare notes. I am sure the guy flying the UAV can relate to my son's Hummer being blown up by and IED and all on board luckily surviving. (Seeing the pictures I can't believe anyone made it out alive) I am sure that is a direct comparison to watching things on a tv screen. I am sure they can also compare notes about holding your friend in your arms waiting for a Medivac and hoping he doesn't die before it gets there.
This is the same type of bullshit pilots of all types pull. I do not want to paint them all with broad brushstrokes. But with that being said, you are always going to have your guys complaining about shit like this because they want to feel that what they do is just as dangerous, stressfull, etc as the guys on the ground. I think it is shameful, and most of the pilots I am stationed with right now would agree with me, regardless of what airframe they fly.
Just remember, not everyone in the AF has this type of mentality. Also, there are plenty of us who have spent our time in the dirt so to speak. Knowing what we do isn't anywhere close to what you all face, but certainly different than sitting in an air conditioned hotel room while deployed to someplace really nasty like Ramstein!!!! My husband has been to more hell holes than I care to count. I wonder what these air chair warriors would say about their stress levels if they had to deal with what he has on the ground.
Not all of us are primadonas, even if that is what is being portrayed through the media as of late. I hope these guys are ashamed, very very ashamed.
Chris Cram
08-08-2008, 12:08
I suspect there is a Soldier or two, sidelined by a combat injury, who would appreciate the opportunity to ‘sit in’ for these Airmen… :lifter
( A new AF related injury for the VA to treat: 'Carpal Tunnel Syndrome':boohoo )
Hell, I'd like to do it on my time off. Going to war in AC, with a cup of coffee, smoking bad guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:
Sounds like a vacation. Can you get a backrub after putting a Hellfire right into the window of a HVT's house?:D
Jack Moroney (RIP)
08-08-2008, 14:26
There is more to this story than meets the eye. There is a big gun fight going on in the concrete sphincter among the AF, Army, Marines about who owns and who should fly the UAVs. The stress thingee is part of the AF ploy to retain control over the UAVs and want them flown by pilots. Gates, we need to prepare only for unconventional and terrorist threats SECDEF, wants the AF to ramp up the number of UAVs incountry. The AF, who wants sole ownership of UAVs, says they cannot comply with more UAVs because of pilot fatigue and shortage because they have to fly manned aircraft also. Apparently the stress argument by the AF is that if their seasoned pilots get stressed from playing video games sitting stateside flying missions think of the stress the other services who allow NCOs who are not seasoned pilots (perish the thought):D will have to suffer when they fly UAVs . Of course the other services counter with the fact that their UAV "operators" are in theater and work hand in glove with the troops that they support and are subjected to the day to day successes and failures on site because whom they support are real folks and not blips on the radar screen. At this point, from what they have reported, stress does not seem to be any more of a problem for them than for anyone else. And so boys and girls we have shitheads in uniforms and civilians in the five sided puzzle palace fighting over rice bowls while kids in the sand box deal with the realities of non support.
Monsoon65
08-08-2008, 14:30
I swear sometimes I am actually embarrassed to be an AF member on this site.
You ain't kidding, Ma'am. :o
Oh, shucks, they are having some stressful moments? Tough. Get out of the AF if you can't hack the mission. Let someone else with a bit more testicular fortitude do the job for you. I have a section full of young studs (and studettes) that would give their stripes and wings to fly UAVs and fill bad guys full of lead.
How come I have a hunch that regardless of the "stress" they are going thru, how much of a mental hell they are put thru, they somehow still manage to try to file the paperwork for an Air Medal or Aerial Achievement Medal. :rolleyes:
You ain't kidding, Ma'am. :o
Oh, shucks, they are having some stressful moments? Tough. Get out of the AF if you can't hack the mission. Let someone else with a bit more testicular fortitude do the job for you. I have a section full of young studs (and studettes) that would give their stripes and wings to fly UAVs and fill bad guys full of lead.
How come I have a hunch that regardless of the "stress" they are going thru, how much of a mental hell they are put thru, they somehow still manage to try to file the paperwork for an Air Medal or Aerial Achievement Medal. :rolleyes:
They already are from what I understand.
Monsoon65
08-08-2008, 14:45
They already are from what I understand.
If they are, I'm throwing mine in the garbage. :mad:
If they are, I'm throwing mine in the garbage. :mad:
Then I take it you don't want me to post the articles I found on the subject??? BTW my husband feels the exact same way. Kind of like the bronze star he was awarded for the things he did in Iraq, while some of our leadership recieved ones for sitting in the CAOC in Saudi.
They need to put the AF back in the Army so they will start supporting the ground pounder and quit protecting their sacred Rice Bowls.......:confused:
They spend more time and money trying not to do the mission than doing it with what we have.... I am tired of their Crying.:boohoo
Then I take it you don't want me to post the articles I found on the subject???
I would like to see the link.. Tx..
Just to clarify something I said about stress and the computer screen.
The stress I got from looking at a monitor while gaming was from the fact I like being up and around, not sitting around gazing at a screen wearing a callus on my ass.
I intended to sarcastic.
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1997/n19971201_971531.html
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/army_UAV_awards_070403w/
The first is from 1997. The second is about the army giving the medals to their UAV operators. I understand there is a difference between the two.
I remember a move afoot not too long ago by the AF UAV guys pushing for more Air Medals but I can't find the article. I will keep looking
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1997/n19971201_971531.html
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/army_UAV_awards_070403w/
The first is from 1997. The second is about the army giving the medals to their UAV operators. I understand there is a difference between the two.
I remember a move afoot not too long ago by the AF UAV guys pushing for more Air Medals but I can't find the article. I will keep looking
Understand you see the difference. The problem is the AF Brass do not. Small UAV's on the front lines operated bu Combat troops in proximity to the Bad Guys in the Hostile Zone vs Operators in another country living in Hotels or their houses pulling shifts. I think I saw a while back the ref to AF looking for more medals and I would be ashamed to say we need more medals. Everyone in the military is in it for the job. If you do some act that is Above and Beyond and or valorous you should be put in for it. Just doing your job is no reason for an award... Seams like they were more concerned that the AF was not going to get some awards......
Monsoon65
08-08-2008, 17:17
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1997/n19971201_971531.html
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/army_UAV_awards_070403w/
The first is from 1997. The second is about the army giving the medals to their UAV operators. I understand there is a difference between the two.
I remember a move afoot not too long ago by the AF UAV guys pushing for more Air Medals but I can't find the article. I will keep looking
I remember everyone having a fit over that first article. Why should someone get an Aviation-based decoration for sitting at Nellis working a joystick while the UAV was in Bosnia? Kind of like those guys that got Bronze Stars for doing B-2 mission planning in Missouri.
That second article is interesting. Why not just make a badge for UAV drivers and leave the wings for guys that fly an actual aircraft? And I can't wait for the day some UAV guy gets the DFC!
BTW my husband feels the exact same way. Kind of like the bronze star he was awarded for the things he did in Iraq, while some of our leadership recieved ones for sitting in the CAOC in Saudi.
Sitting in theatre and being awarded a BSM for mritorious service is one thing...the ones that get me are the BSMs awarded to the staff officers at Whiteman AFB for their support of OEF/OIF by sending the Spirits to the IO and back...which is about as bad as some of the A&Ds handed out across the services during Urgent Fury. :mad:
Richard's $.02 :munchin
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1997/n19971201_971531.html
In this 1st one the AF guy received the AF "Aerial Achievement Medal" for saving a UAV damaged in action. The award in this instance is supported by
definition:
[quote] The decoration is intended to recognize the contributions of aircrew members who would, otherwise, not be qualified for the award of the Air Medal. The decoration is awarded in the name of the Secretary of the Air Force and is presented to any member of the United States military who, while serving in a capacity with the U.S. Air Force, distinguishes themselves by sustained meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight. The achievements must be accomplished with distinction above and beyond that normally expected of professional airmen..
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/army_UAV_awards_070403w/
Soldiers who operate unmanned aerial vehicles now are eligible for award of the Aviation Badge, Distinguished Flying Cross and Air Medal. The policy change will be included in an upcoming revision of Army Regulation 600-8-22 (Military Awards). Under the new policy, approved last month, unmanned aerial vehicle system warrant officers and enlisted operators may be awarded the DFC or AM “if they are physically located on the aircraft (system) during the cited period, and all criteria for the decorations have been met.”
This second link supports the ARMY awarding the DFC & AM for those operating UAV's. I guess if I was in the middle of a large pickle and someone is operating a UAV, dumping ordinance on bad guys,, that saves my butt.. I would be very appreciative. Not unlike the AF truck drivers that flew air cover for me or the 155 battery back on the FB..
I remember everyone having a fit over that first article. Why should someone get an Aviation-based decoration for sitting at Nellis working a joystick while the UAV was in Bosnia? Kind of like those guys that got Bronze Stars for doing B-2 mission planning in Missouri.
That second article is interesting. Why not just make a badge for UAV drivers and leave the wings for guys that fly an actual aircraft? And I can't wait for the day some UAV guy gets the DFC!
Hummmmmmm Hummmmmmm Hummmmmmmm
UAV??????? Unmanned Areal Vehicle Hummmmm Is that not a Plane? It Flys? Some one Flys it? Let the Video Geeks have their wings. Just do not think that it is the same as sitting in a F15 at Mach ###. I give them their due and am thankful that this is now out there but they are getting a little toooo AirForceish for me.
They should bring their buts to IQ and Afghanistan and work out of an airbase there. Then I would feel a little better as they cry for a badge and Decoration.
Just my 2 cents
OK They will give a thousand reasons not to do it but everyone else is there why not them.......
Red Flag 1
08-08-2008, 17:54
When my son graduated from VMI, he had a flying slot fwith he USMC. Before he could begin UPT he had to complete Marine OCS, and TBS. These are the courses all Marine officers must complete, no matter what.
My son related thea the USMC idea is that the most important position on the battelfield is the Marine with weapon. The Marine is supported by all, including close air support. The only way to understand the needs of a Marine in the field is to be one.
I think the USMC has it right. The USAF needs a lot more training in reality than it has. Send UPT candidates to USMC TBS and you'll loose half of the students. Those that can hack it will be better pilots....IMHO.
RF 1
Why not just make a badge for UAV drivers and leave the wings for guys that fly an actual aircraft? And I can't wait for the day some UAV guy gets the DFC!
Change is coming,, VERY SOON.
There are current funded USN projects, publicly announced, that will put armed UAV's on the current aircraft Carrier fleet.
The NG X-47A & X-47B J-UCAS are about to fly.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3738/is_200410/ai_n9426182
http://www.northropgrumman.com/unmanned/jucas/overview.html
The RQ-4B Global Hawk is about the size of a 707, currently in operations as a littoral surveillance platform. It could be retro-fitted to an attack craft with J-DAMS for a modest effort. The Global Hawk is 100% independently flown by it-self, NO OPERATOR INVOLVED.
http://www.northropgrumman.com/unmanned/globalhawk/overview.html
Things are going to change on the battle field. The current "GATE" on expanding UAV's in combat,,, are the AF & Navy Jet-Jockies,, They want people pilots,, you can't make 4-star by commanding a platoon of Armed Lap-Tops on remote control..
Monsoon65
08-08-2008, 18:46
Hummmmmmm Hummmmmmm Hummmmmmmm
UAV??????? Unmanned Areal Vehicle Hummmmm Is that not a Plane? It Flys? Some one Flys it? Let the Video Geeks have their wings. Just do not think that it is the same as sitting in a F15 at Mach ###. I give them their due and am thankful that this is now out there but they are getting a little toooo AirForceish for me........
I don't mind if the video geeks get "wings", I just don't want them wearing the same ones I do, simply for the fact you mentioned: Flying a real aircraft is no way the same as flying a UAV.
They should bring their buts to IQ and Afghanistan and work out of an airbase there. Then I would feel a little better as they cry for a badge and Decoration.
Just my 2 cents..
And a well spent 2 cents it is. I think they'll have more appreciation for their job if they lived/worked with the guys they supported.
:DI don't mind if the video geeks get "wings", I just don't want them wearing the same ones I do, simply for the fact you mentioned: Flying a real aircraft is no way the same as flying a UAV.
And a well spent 2 cents it is. I think they'll have more appreciation for their job if they lived/worked with the guys they supported.
They will be different it will be a Joystick with wings. SR and Master will have Helfires on each side.
CPTAUSRET
08-09-2008, 10:35
Stressful.............I'm sure
PTSD??? I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag. If'n I'm wrong, come visit me in Hell.
I wasn't going to respond...But WTF?
I spent 3 1/2 years flying gunships NOE (25-50 ft AGL), in VN, when I hosed someone I was close enough to describe them. I used to catch hell from my CO for returning to home base with mud on my windshield, so I worked out a deal with Co ops, we set up a code whereby they would have someone standing by to get the mud, and sometimes blood off my windshield when I landed. We often had blood on the inside of the windshield, I lost 2 co-pilots in one day.
I once ended up with a goodly portion of my CE in my lap, he caught a .50 caliber round, and his leg ended up between the seats. I was shot down on several occasions, wounded more than once! We had 10 pilots, to man 5 Aircraft, which meant that everyone flew every day, my nick was "Magnet Ass" cause I always came home with holes in my aircraft. But you know what, that was my "F@@KING" job!! I put myself and my crewmembers between the Good Guys and the BGs. The lines were often indistinct, so I would at times hover directly over the good guys, and we sometimes put hot brass down their collars.
I would do it over again in a heartbeat, I loved what I did! The worst part of being in VN for me was the cold showers!
These guys are stressed, BS!!
Slicks are for kids!
I wasn't going to respond...But WTF?
I spent 3 1/2 years flying gunships NOE (25-50 ft AGL), in VN, when I hosed someone I was close enough to describe them. I used to catch hell from my CO for returning to home base with mud on my windshield, so I worked out a deal with Co ops, we set up a code whereby they would have someone standing by to get the mud, and sometimes blood off my windshield when I landed. We often had blood on the inside of the windshield, I lost 2 co-pilots in one day.
I once ended up with a goodly portion of my CE in my lap, he caught a .50 caliber round, and his leg ended up between the seats. I was shot down on several occasions, wounded more than once! We had 10 pilots, to man 5 Aircraft, which meant that everyone flew every day, my nick was "Magnet Ass" cause I always came home with holes in my aircraft. But you know what, that was my "F@@KING" job!! I put myself and my crewmembers between the Good Guys and the BGs. The lines were often indistinct, so I would at times hover directly over the good guys, and we sometimes put hot brass down their collars.
I would do it over again in a heartbeat, I loved what I did! The worst part of being in VN for me was the cold showers!
These guys are stressed, BS!!
Slicks are for kids!
You are Great and that is the difference between Warrior's and the AF. Not sure what they are but I always found if I needed Tac Air from Fast movers Call the Navy/USMC, if I needed Gunships they were always there and the thing that the AF was good for was Chow..... OK they are all not bad but they are a different animal....
CPTAUSRET
08-09-2008, 18:23
You are Great and that is the difference between Warrior's and the AF. Not sure what they are but I always found if I needed Tac Air from Fast movers Call the Navy/USMC, if I needed Gunships they were always there and the thing that the AF was good for was Chow..... OK they are all not bad but they are a different animal....
Thanks, Brother. I appreciate the compliment!
AngelsSix
08-09-2008, 18:58
I wish my job was as simply as playing video games or joysticking all day..............I will trade those guys any day of the week.
:rolleyes:
Monsoon65
08-10-2008, 14:33
You are Great and that is the difference between Warrior's and the AF.....
That's the difference between AF computer operators and AF aircrew. They shouldn't be mixed. We drum it into the heads of the new kids that we are there to support guys on the ground and that is first and foremost the mission of the day.
I know when I'm in the AOR, it's actually a lot easier than at home station. I just fly, eat, workout, sleep, and read. I don't worry about a thing that's going on back at home because I have my A Game going on.
For the UAV operators in that states, it must be interesting. They are at the console and they are working their A game, but when it's over, they have to remember to pick up milk on the way home, and that the wife has a doctors appointment the next day.
I say pack them up and move them to the AOR. That way, they can keep their head in the game and not be distracted.
The Reaper
08-10-2008, 14:42
The AF UAV pilots are all former fighter pilots, at the service's insistence.
The Army UAV drivers I have met are mostly junior enlisted soldiers flying from the Box, and they are doing just fine, as far as we are concerned.
TR
That's the difference between AF computer operators and AF aircrew. They shouldn't be mixed. We drum it into the heads of the new kids that we are there to support guys on the ground and that is first and foremost the mission of the day.
I know when I'm in the AOR, it's actually a lot easier than at home station. I just fly, eat, workout, sleep, and read. I don't worry about a thing that's going on back at home because I have my A Game going on.
For the UAV operators in that states, it must be interesting. They are at the console and they are working their A game, but when it's over, they have to remember to pick up milk on the way home, and that the wife has a doctors appointment the next day.
I say pack them up and move them to the AOR. That way, they can keep their head in the game and not be distracted.
At the AF insistence the Pilots are Pilots, former Jet Jockyes.... Yes or No? As far as I know it is Yes. TR also agrees.
I agree with you they should be packed up and work in the AOR. Les distractions and everyone else is there making the sacrifice they should also. It will let them have less distractions and be more focused. It may also cut down on the stress....... No decisions except work......
Monsoon65
08-10-2008, 19:07
The AF UAV pilots are all former fighter pilots, at the service's insistence.
I heard that the AF is going to start forcing more pilots to do the UAV job.
The Army UAV drivers I have met are mostly junior enlisted soldiers flying from the Box, and they are doing just fine, as far as we are concerned.
And the enlisted kids in the AF are green with jealously over that fact, too!:)
The Army UAV drivers I have met are mostly junior enlisted soldiers flying from the Box, and they are doing just fine, as far as we are concerned.
TR
During his last deployment my husband was a UAV PL. The pilots he worked with were all enlisted, though I'm pretty sure some of them were NCOs. Anyway, I just told him about this whole thing and he'd heard about it and thought it was ridiculous. The guys he worked with were all top-notch, they were all very squared away, AND they regularly demanded they work through "crew-rest" and the rest of the funny requirements given for time-off in order to get the mission done. They were there to do a job and they did it very, very well. In fact, they did it so well that my husband had a love/hate feeling about his time as their PL because they needed so little in terms of supervision and he was just a token officer. He loved the guys, but hated feeling useless. They ended up piling a couple other jobs on top of him to keep him busy because these guys ran themselves. In the year they were there his crew never lost a bird due to operator error.
Army soldiers can fly UAVs extremely well (in theater even :rolleyes:)
During his last deployment my husband was a UAV PL. The pilots he worked with were all enlisted, though I'm pretty sure some of them were NCOs. Anyway, I just told him about this whole thing and he'd heard about it and thought it was ridiculous. The guys he worked with were all top-notch, they were all very squared away, AND they regularly demanded they work through "crew-rest" and the rest of the funny requirements given for time-off in order to get the mission done. They were there to do a job and they did it very, very well. In fact, they did it so well that my husband had a love/hate feeling about his time as their PL because they needed so little in terms of supervision and he was just a token officer. He loved the guys, but hated feeling useless. They ended up piling a couple other jobs on top of him to keep him busy because these guys ran themselves. In the year they were there his crew never lost a bird due to operator error.
Army soldiers can fly UAVs extremely well (in theater even :rolleyes:)
Hummmmmmm AF spends multi millions on Pilots (Officers) and pulls them out of Manned AC to have them fly Big RC AC. Army sends a kid to Boot, AIT and selects him to fly RC AC in theater at a cost of ? near to nothing. What is wrong with this picture. Army guys refuse to go on crew rest because the guys on the ground need them right now...... Must be an Army thing, they are still in touch with the person they are supporting on the ground.
AF Enlisted are jealous of Army guys, that is a new one.:D
I am not a AF hater. I have worked side by side with some great guys but in the Big AF picture they are not grounded as to why they are there. They are there to support the guy on the ground that is going toe to toe with the enemy. Sitting in Las Vegas and going home every night is not how they should be supporting the troops in contact. I agree with Monsoon65 that it is better to be in the AOR with less distractions.
Chris Cram
08-11-2008, 14:12
Thanks, Brother. I appreciate the compliment!
Sir
Thanks for being there. And with respect to the brass… such is life.
You guys brought my cousins’ home, one Army, one Marine, both riflemen.
(Both are Grandfathers now)
By the time I was 11B in Alaska, most of your associates were probably Army NG. We (the Grunts) were 100% comfortable flying with those pilots. RA seemed a little high strung (the career thing, we figured), but it was clear that the NG Pilots loved what they were doing, and they did it with precision and style.
With gratitude and the highest respect, thank you.
cc
CPTAUSRET
08-13-2008, 10:53
That's an amazing story Sir, maybe you should write a book about your time in Vietnam! :lifter
I am comfortable with my "Brothers In Arms" on this website, so much so that a "War Story" will slip out every once in awhile...I am not so sure that I would/could put my story out there for the general public to ingest.
My wife is a gifted writer, she has encouraged me to write a book and has even volunteered to co-author it, it hasn't happened, probably won't!
My wife is the famous one in this family, and I am quite happy with that (do a search for Nancy Andreasen, then a further search for Nancy C Andreasen). There are a couple of threads on this site re Nancy, one, which afforded me the opportunity to speak very candidly with then pres. Clinton in the Oval Office.
And finally; I was just doing my job, a job I fought for, and loved doing! I figured every VC/NVA I planted accounted for one more young American who could then return home safely!
What's better than that?
Defender968
08-13-2008, 20:17
I am not a AF hater. I have worked side by side with some great guys but in the Big AF picture they are not grounded as to why they are there. They are there to support the guy on the ground that is going toe to toe with the enemy. Sitting in Las Vegas and going home every night is not how they should be supporting the troops in contact. I agree with Monsoon65 that it is better to be in the AOR with less distractions.
I agree that's what the AF mission is supposed to be, supporting the troops on the ground, however what the AF mission actually is, is to make more generals and get more funding, Col M is correct in that the AF is using this as an excuse to try to keep all the UAV's, "they're really horrible guys you don't want them":rolleyes:
Unfortunately the AF brass has lost is focus so badly and is so out of touch that they don't even realize how F*(#ing retarded this claim is. As a cop I've been to lots of scenes with grizzly bodies that have had lots of horrible things done to them by bad people, and these were innocent victims, not bad people that needed killing, and you know what, I don't have PTSD. So I'm sorry if these F(*^ing Sallies don't understand that the military's job at it's most basic level is to kill people and break things, get the F(*^ over it or get out and go work at Starbucks you freaking sheep. Next thing you know they'll want a purple heart for stubbing their toes going to get another cup of coffee. I’m so sick of AF office pukes and AF zipper suited sun gods freaking whining about how hard their jobs are and how it’s so terrible to be them with their flight pay and their 12 hour crew day, with their additional duties, in their air conditioned deployed locations for 2 whole months with their coffee shops, most of whom don’t understand the first thing about war, leadership, or anything besides flying, drinking and trying to get laid. Out of every 100 AF pilots I meet maybe 1, maybe, has his head out of his ass and has the slightest clue about the bigger picture, and what his job really is and why he even exists, and no fellas it’s not to get promoted, chase tail on Friday night, get more flight pay, or to look cool in your nifty pajamas, and that goes for all ranks of AF pilots. Though there are lots of great people doing hard jobs in the AF our/their leadership are all pilots and all equally out of touch with the fact that we are at WAR! You know now that I think of it, maybe if they actually went to the desert for more than 2 months they’re realize that….. No that gives them way too much credit.
So whine on you bunch of UAV flying nancies, while better men go out and make sure you have the freedom to snivel and go home at every night to momma.
Don’t get me wrong they (UAV pilots and pilots in general for that matter) do bring a great asset to the fight, it’s just I’m so sick of their freaking whining, man up or go home.
The Air Force, the viable alternative to military service :mad:.