View Full Version : A Canadian in SF.
BoilerPlate
07-31-2008, 12:59
Gentlemen thanks for the opportunity to post.
I have read nearly every thread on this forum it seems, and have a question pertaining to my own situation which I have not seen answered. Any and all help is much obliged.
I am a Canadian citizen with a green card but as I have just recently been married, (to a US citizen), I will not have Naturalization until around 3 years. I have lived in the US for a little over 10 years, and wish to serve. Although I may join the US Army regular service with the green card, my current citizenship status limits me from signing an 18x contract.
I am 29 and doing quite well as an independent business owner however I have decided to turn it loose, and earn my place in the US via military service. I am very upset I am ineligible for the 18x contract, so I have researched an alternative path to attend SFAS through an 11B infantry contract. I just recently returned from a visit to Ft.Bragg so I could see and learn first hand how my friend was doing, a current 18x candidate who is I think now in SERE.
My situation and question is this...
While in Ft. Bragg I contacted some SF recruiters who told me that if all my numbers (ASVAB + PT) were squared away, and I excel at BST (OSUT), I can come find them during and around AIT, and they will pull me from my 11B unit assignment, and allow me to work for them in SF liaison while my estimated 6 month citizenship is expedited, at which point they will allow me to sign a 'crossover' contract and carry on as a 18x. At this point I will be 30. (I know 18x age limit is 30 however they mentioned an age waiver for those already in the Army).
This is obviously a substantial risk as I am guaranteed nothing, (no one ever is), and it will not be in writing. All I am looking for is an opportunity and chance to try for SFAS before a years deployment as an 11B.
Is what I have been told by this SF recruiter an accurate enough assessment for me to make a risky yet informed decision down a military path where I can at least get a crack at attending SFAS before spending a year as an 11B? (I understand and am more than willing to serve an 11B if SF circumstances me.)
Many current 18x candidates informed me that during their BST, SF recruiters came and selected a few 11B's to crossover. Does anyone know if this is a regular occurrence? I am wondering if this seems a legitimate path, based on my personal goals. People say all the time that if the Army doesn't put it in writing, don't believe it. Well, I unfortunately have no other choice then blind faith, so I am looking to hear from those in the know.
I appreciate the opportunity to post and hope it's not an out of the line question. It is a complicated scenario and few regular recruiters want to even touch it. Making advice and answers very hard to find.
Thank you.
-Paul.
The Reaper
07-31-2008, 13:28
IMHO, if it isn't in writing in your contract, it isn't promised, and the Army has no obligation to honor the alleged agreement.
What is wrong with learning how to be an infantryman for a few months before dropping an SF packet?
Any particular reason you have to be an 18X?
TR
Thank you for your desire to serve.
Your issue is that you are not eligible for a security clearance. Why not sign for 11x or 68W with Airborne and worry about the rest once you're a citizen?
BoilerPlate
07-31-2008, 14:04
IMHO, if it isn't in writing in your contract, it isn't promised, and the Army has no obligation to honor the alleged agreement.
What is wrong with learning how to be an infantryman for a few months before dropping an SF packet?
Any particular reason you have to be an 18X?
TR
Certainly there is nothing wrong with infantry and learning things from those who already know far more than I. But in earnest, and please inform me if I'm wrong, I am seeing a vast difference between an SF man and an infantryman. Amongst which are important to me at this stage in my life, age and maturity. Of course they don't always go hand in hand, and I know the attrition rate for SF is very high, but at this point in my life, I would like to at least work myself an opportunity to try for QP's rather than spend a year 'hoot-n-holleran' with the 18-19 yr olds.
I know myself, and am more suited to the roles which SF plays, than to the roles of infantry. Am I SF material, we'll see. They'll tell me. And please don't take this as me taking a better-than-thou attitude on infantry. I certainly am not. I can and would learn a lot from those hard working experienced men. The old path to SF is probably as it should be. However things have changed and doors have opened, and I'd be a fool not to try to utilize them.
But again I am not disillusioned. I know who I am, where I am in life, and what I am more suited to. Hanging out with the infantry and SF guys in Ft.Bragg, I saw I fit well with one far better than the other. And it wasn't as much the infantry guys.
To me this is a huge life 180. It is for all who decide to serve. But at this point, I want to maximize my goals, efforts, and opportunities to their fullest. I would be a fool not to. And to maximize these opportunities the 18x best fits the bill.
So I guess, I hear what you are saying about having it in black and white. But as I said, I don't have much of an option there. I just wonder how often the Army comes through, or if my odds of getting SFAS via said path are even realistic.
Thank you for your input gentlemen. Big decision.
The Reaper
07-31-2008, 14:14
Very nice plan. I understand that you really want to be SF. Many people do.
Reality is you are more likely to become an infantryman than SF, even if you could get an SF contract. Attrition includes even people who see themselves as SF material.
This board is covered with stories from guys who thought they were a shoe in for SF. Most of them are now infantrymen on a 5 or 6 year tour.
One misstep, literally or figuratively, and you are out of the program, humping a ruck as a rifleman.
Just my .02, YMMV. Best of luck.
TR
BoilerPlate
07-31-2008, 14:42
Certainly.
I've read all the 'I am SF' material threads many times. But this isn't so much about whether or not I am SF material as much as it is about finding a path to SFAS.
My friend of 4 years in doing very well in the program now. Nothing is assured. However we are a lot alike. He is doing Chinese and 18D/medic. Infantry is a reality if I fail or falter, and one I will accept and handle. Any misstep as you say.
But I am looking at the 25m target, and to me, that is SFAS. Not my failure/washout 6 yr infantry contract and the reality that most who try, fail. For the record, I am not most. (Many say this, as will I. But I say this for myself, not for those who read this).
At this point I am less concerned (in fact not at all) with convincing others I am SF material, knowing in my heart and head I will give it 210% of nothing but my best, and actually getting to the places I need to be so I can prove my worth rather than praise it. Reality, confidence, visions of grandeur, washout, success, misunderstanding, complete understanding...all things pointless to prove, ask, or envision until the moment of truth arrives for each. But building my bridge to get me to that moment, and where I want to be, is with the help of others my goal here. Just want to know if the route I'm navigating is on a map which is current. Are my landmark's going to be there when I need them down the road? This I don't know. So gathering intelligence to make my best intelligent guess is all I can really do right now.
Surgicalcric
07-31-2008, 15:21
But I am looking at the 25m target, and to me, that is SFAS...
Your 25m target is enlisting. On a UK-D range, SFAS is somewhere between the 175 and 200m line. Pretty far away considering your position at this time.
Right now, 18X isnt an option for you. You can continue to moan about it or you can pony up and enlist into the Infantry, or any other MOS, and learn alot about yourself, being soldier, and the military while you wait for the chance to attend SFAS. Your time waiting would be better spent taking the fight to the enemy than sitting in some office working for a recruiter. No time learning to be an asset to your future team (if you get there) is a waste.
Also, there are quite a few 30+ y/o guys in the Infantry who thought they had what it took to be SF too. Infact I know of two guys who were dropped from the SFQC and sent to the 82nd for a couple years. They are back in the SFQC again and both of them are better for having been to the "line." I am sure they will be bringing something to their future teams because of their time well spent as well...
The 'I will be 30 and dont want to spend my time with a group of 18-19 y/o's' argument is petty to say the least. Those young troopers are out there shooting bad guys in the face everyday. Next time you may want to consider they are doing the deed while you are still talking about it.
Crip
Trip_Wire (RIP)
07-31-2008, 17:49
I sure have met and know many Canadians in the Ranger BN's. I can't think of a better basic education for an SF soldier, than serving as an Airborne Ranger!. :lifter
I'm not a QP but have been doing research relevant to your issues, I hope nobody minds me offering a little of what I've discovered.
It's possible to get "option 4" in an 11x or 13series (probably more MOS types) in contract, which means if you meet all requirements and graduate OSUT or Basic/AIT- you have a slot available in airborne training- which upon graduation, you're "Airborne Qualified" and likely to get placed on an Airborne infantry unit (82nd, 173rd, etc). Lots of people cite the difference between a normal infantryman (leg) and a paratrooper, some call them "different breeds." If that is the sort of training you want, I would do everything I could to get option 4 in contract.
If you went that route, became airborne qualified, you may even end up stationed at Ft. Bragg. Either way, I've heard nothing but amazing things about all of the US Army's Airborne Units. Most beneficial to your cause- if you were still pursuing SFAS- you would already be airborne qualified, and would save some time, since it seems to be important to you.
That said, although I'm trying to be helpful, I'm a peon, and bow in the QP's presense :o
Slantwire
08-25-2008, 10:55
To respond to the initial questions:
Is what I have been told by this SF recruiter an accurate enough assessment for me to make a risky yet informed decision
That's something you have to decide for yourself.
Many current 18x candidates informed me that during their BST, SF recruiters came and selected a few 11B's to crossover. Does anyone know if this is a regular occurrence?
We never had SF recruiters visit my OSUT class. Maybe five or six weeks in, the drill sergeants asked if anyone wanted to add Airborne, Ranger, or SF to their training pipe. Lots of guys did. The cadre attitude made it seem like a routine thing.
Two guys in my class started with SFAS pipeline orders (both of us were Guard REP-63s). One added when the drill sergeants offered. Two more went to the SF recruiter while on the Sand Hill airborne hold unit.
On a related note: One guy in my OSUT platoon was Canadian, and he came in with a RIP contract. He was dealing with clearance paperwork through the entire process, and eventually was barred from RIP due to inability to get a clearance. He did have some legal history, though. Judging from Trip_Wire's comment, his citizenship probably wasn't the issue.
blue02hd
08-25-2008, 11:28
You do realize that the 18X program has not always been present? That being said, this forum, not to mention the teams, are full of QP's that have payed their dues in the infantry, as well as every other MOS out there.
My personal story includes time in RGR Bn, as well as 101st before I was accepted to try my hand in SFAS. I personally feel it has improved my performance, and allowed me to bring more to the table to share once I did arrive on an ODA.
Just because you WANT something does not mean you deserve it. As has been pointed out, your pathway to the long tab will be slightly different from others due to your security clearance issue. This is the reality of your situation. You can accept it and choose to arrive at SFAS via a different route, (a route that many of us have also traveled), or you can choose to drop it and excel somewhere else. Pretty simple choice really, but I am not you.
Any attempts to backdoor, circumvent, or "get over" will only prove to others that you are not willing to do the same thing that non- 18x's have been doing for decades: Earn it.
I simply don't see why your challenges are any worse than challenges other QP's have had to face, and defeated.
<Steps off his soap box>
The 'I will be 30 and dont want to spend my time with a group of 18-19 y/o's' argument is petty to say the least. Those young troopers are out there shooting bad guys in the face everyday. Next time you may want to consider they are doing the deed while you are still talking about it.Crip
Missed that one.....VERY WELL SAID!
Sinister
08-25-2008, 19:37
The Army/DOD rules covering a resident alien say you may enlist and serve to the end of a second enlistment before either qualifying for citizenship or be administratively separated from the service.
Citizenship is required for the base Special Forces prerequisite of a Secret security clearance.
You would be enlisting for the Army first, and later qualifying as an in-service Special Forces volunteer (at grade E-4) and not as an 18X.
There are no guarantees or contracts for anyone who does not qualify or is waived for the baseline.
mark46th
08-25-2008, 20:00
If you can qualify for SF selection, or whatever the hell they call it now, and you have something that is wanted or needed, your citizenship status can be resolved. I remember when I woke up my first morning in the SF barracks. At first I thought I was in Germany, then Hungary. There were conversations in several languages going on around me. My favorite was the semi-famous story of an A-team XO born in Europe-
"I speak German, Norwegian and have a working knowledge of English."
The Reaper
08-26-2008, 05:04
If you can qualify for SF selection, or whatever the hell they call it now, something that is wanted or needed, your citizenship status can be resolved. I remember when I woke up my first morning in the SF barracks. At first I thought I was in Germany, then Hungary. There were conversations in several languages going on around me. My favorite was the semi-famous story of an A-team XO born in Europe-
"I speak German, Norwegian and have a working knowledge of English."
Times have changed.
TR
magician
08-26-2008, 11:28
The Army/DOD rules covering a resident alien say you may enlist and serve to the end of a second enlistment before either qualifying for citizenship or be administratively separated from the service.
Citizenship is required for the base Special Forces prerequisite of a Secret security clearance.
You would be enlisting for the Army first, and later qualifying as an in-service Special Forces volunteer (at grade E-4) and not as an 18X.
There are no guarantees or contracts for anyone who does not qualify or is waived for the baseline.
I recently sat down with the CSM of USSOCOM. He mentioned that one of the more effective ways that SF Command is sourcing successful 18X recruits was siphoning off the "top percentages" at OSUT (he also emphasized that all candidates were infantrymen). I got the impression that this was a recent means of accessing candidates, and I have no idea whether it will be formalized. It certainly is not a sure thing upon which you could depend. Literally, it was not much more than the recruiters talking to three or four candidates in each class and asking them if they would like to try out for SF.
In any case, the clearance issue stated above is probably your primary obstacle.
The SF recruiters are probably absolutely sincere. Keep in mind that they may rotate to new assignments before you are ready to work for them. New guys who have never heard of you may be sitting at those desks the next time that you walk in.
In my opinion, you should be prepared to put your butt on the line as an infantryman in combat before you attend SFAS. If you get lucky and get a shot at SFAS instead, fine. But you are seeking exceptions to exceptions, and the odds are heavily stacked against you on many levels.
Good luck, and thanks for considering service in the US Armed Forces.
No matter what happens, I guarantee that serving in my Army will change your life forever, and for the better.
mark46th
08-26-2008, 21:18
Reaper- So I have noticed....
If you can't sort out your citizenship issues there is another option.
http://www.csor.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp
Falstaff
09-04-2008, 21:03
We worked with CanSOF on the last push. Those guys are some of the best operators I've ever had the pleasure to work along side. Their tier two force, the equivalent of us, is only a couple of years old, so they have that cool dynamic of being plank owners in a fluid, transformational time. Their young guys still think FID and UW are what makes us special. It's a refreshing change of pace. If I were Canadian, I would certainly give them a look before I scoured the manuals for loopholes into SF.
Are there possibility to get in the SF pipeline without a citizenship. I'll be done with university in about 3 years, will be 26 then and I'd like to know how can I get my ducks in a row now to try to get in the pipeline one day. Is citizenship a must have before joining? A green card requires 5(!) years of permanent residence and I'm not sure it would be enough for the Secret clearance.
I've asked various recruiters and all they told me is they don't want to get involved in any immigration issues. I've heard of some .mil programs converting civilian pilots to military so it might help my case but I'm not convinced it'll solve my citizenship issue nor that it's the best MOS for SF. I could be wrong.
As of right now I'm open to any suggestions; beside, you know, coming illegally and waiting for President Obama's nation-wide amnesty.
I'm not interested in any other .mil branch both US and Canada. CanSOF/US Navy/Marines are not viable options right now.
Are there possibility to get in the SF pipeline without a citizenship.
No
Utah Bob
07-12-2009, 08:34
But this isn't so much about whether or not I am SF material as much as it is about finding a path to SFAS.
Au contraire my northern friend. That's exactly what it's about. If you are SF material you will find a path. And it won't be a shortcut.
I understand your desire but you are definitely not looking at the 25m line. Valuable training and experience can be gained in the big Army. The essence of soldiering is the same. Pay your dues in the infantry or Rangers. You'll be a better all around trooper and can be an asset to SF.
If you don't like life in a regular unit there's a real good chance you might not be as suited for SF as you think. Only time will tell.
Au contraire my northern friend. That's exactly what it's about. If you are SF material you will find a path. And it won't be a shortcut.
I understand your desire but you are definitely not looking at the 25m line. Valuable training and experience can be gained in the big Army. The essence of soldiering is the same. Pay your dues in the infantry or Rangers. You'll be a better all around trooper and can be an asset to SF.
If you don't like life in a regular unit there's a real good chance you might not be as suited for SF as you think. Only time will tell.
Good advice.
All SF tasks are based off the basic's , Master the basic's of Shoot, Move, and Communicate.
The more advanced skills will then make more sence to you.
You will also appreciate getting a chance to lead a fire team in the infantry. Without that base of experience you will be behind your peer's that have.
Thats just a fact most 18X's find out in the Q-course.
Leadership is not common it has to be developed threw experience of doing leadership duties and threw watching other leaders at the next level over you.
CasperMike
07-18-2009, 09:15
Bottom line--do your time in a line unit, get some working experience, and then put in your packet.
Be careful of what you say about the infantry or those '18 and 19 y/o's'
Originally Posted by Surgicalcric
The 'I will be 30 and dont want to spend my time with a group of 18-19 y/o's' argument is petty to say the least. Those young troopers are out there shooting bad guys in the face everyday. Next time you may want to consider they are doing the deed while you are still talking about it.Crip
Let's say hypothetically that I do the citizenship thing (get a job stateside, get married, green card, etc). 18X would probably be unavailable to me (Will probably be over 30 then, etc). Then enlisting MOS 11B then serve in a unit then volunteering for Airborne/Ranger/SFAS would be probably the best choice.
My question would probably be odd for any QPs but being already a rotarhead, wouldn't it be a better idea to enlist under the CWO program and after 4-8 years volunteer for SF ? Does it comes back to the choice of being a Pilot or a Special Force soldier? I know the Army is always hurting for qualified Pilots.
Utah Bob
07-24-2009, 07:16
I think you are still struggling mightily with the decision. And I think you may have waited too long to make one. You're 29 and have been in the US for 10 years. A good time to enlist for you would have been 10 years ago. Then you'd be on here as a QP now.
My advice FWIW is to continue with your civilian aviation career, become a citizen and an asset to your community.
If you still feel that you want to enlist, the flight program would be fine for you but I really don't see you on a team in the future. I could be wrong. That's just my read based on your posts so far. Nothing personal.
greenberetTFS
07-24-2009, 13:10
We worked with CanSOF on the last push. Those guys are some of the best operators I've ever had the pleasure to work along side. Their tier two force, the equivalent of us, is only a couple of years old, so they have that cool dynamic of being plank owners in a fluid, transformational time. Their young guys still think FID and UW are what makes us special. It's a refreshing change of pace. If I were Canadian, I would certainly give them a look before I scoured the manuals for loopholes into SF.
I never served with the Canadian SF,but Falstaff seems to me like he's giving you some really sound advice from a guy who has......:cool: Listen to him and investigate what Canada's requirements are for SF and then give it some serious consideration....:)
Big Teddy :munchin
One of my Chiefs (a Brit by birth) came to the states for school and ended up as an 11B in the Rangers at age 30. That's right, he was an old man in the Ragnars. Did his time in Regiment, then came to our Regiment and has been working solid ever since; I think he's in his early 40's now. He's one of the most competent, physically fit, nicest guys to carry a gun I know.
Another story, this time of a Dark Side Canadian (you know, the French speaking ones) who also came here for school. Joins up as an 11B, does his thing in Corps LRS before coming here. Had to surrender his Canadian citizen ship to get his clearance. Again, a super competent, fit, gunslinger.
I could rattle off a ton of examples like these. I'm older too (went to SFAS at 31). If I could do it again, I think I should have spent some time in a line unit (I came from the Navy). I'd be even better now at my job. As far as I can tell, perhaps the crummiest, most vital, most honorable job in the Army is as a PFC in a line unit. No sense in shirking that experience.
So just join the damn Army or don't. No matter what happens, you'll have a good story, eh? "No fate but what we make," right?
Stay safe,
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