View Full Version : Advice on an Officer MOS?
Ferratus
05-24-2004, 01:37
As helpful as everyone's response was to Ross' post concerning college majors, I thought a few of you would have some thoughts on this question. It is really a three-part question that has to do with Ranger school as well, a subject I'm sure many users here are all too familiar with.
As former or current SF team members:
1.) Which Officer MOS do you feel would provide the greatest experience necessary to operate as an 18A? More specifically, would working in something like the Intelligence or Medical branches give more useful training than in the Infantry branch?
2.) Since it seems as though there are more applicants for an 18-A than there are open slots, is there an MOS that would increase my chances to be later selected for SFAS?
3.) Is Ranger School still an option for non-Combat Arms officers?
As a sidenote, I'd just like to extend my gratitude for those who have responded to this forum. While there seems to be ample information concerning the NCO SF MOS, it has been exceedingly difficult to find a good source of discussion about pursuing a military career as an 18A. If anyone can recommend any good books or websites that address this topic, I would be in your debt.
The Reaper
05-24-2004, 05:39
1. 11A.
2. No. You should be selected for SFAS regardless.
3. No idea. Why not go as a cadet?
Good luck.
TR
brownapple
05-24-2004, 06:40
Originally posted by The Reaper
1. 11A.
2. No. You should be selected for SFAS regardless.
3. No idea. Why not go as a cadet?
Good luck.
TR
1. Concur
2. Concur
3. According to a speech by General Schoomaker, Ranger School is going to get a lot more emphasis for all branches.
If you follow TR's advice in #1, you're pretty much guaranteed #3 right after IOBC. More importantly, you should probably choose an MOS of which you'd be willing to make a career, as there's no guarantee you'll get into SF (always plan PACE).
Ferratus
05-24-2004, 17:21
Thank you for the advice.
I anticipated 11A as the appropriate MOS, I just wanted to confirm that. As far as picking one that I would be willing to make a career out of, all of the three I mentioned were ones I was hoping to get into, including Infantry.
I appreciate your rapid responses to this question. I'll start looking into more information about 11A immediately to make sure it fits my military interests.
stschmidt
06-16-2004, 04:21
Looking at the list from this year there were quite a few different AOC's selected but 11A was predominant. You will see very few Medical Officers (70B) selected. Don't know if that was due to lack of applicants or type of person applying. Could be a little of both. Just my two cents.
Steve
Airbornelawyer
06-16-2004, 09:31
Originally posted by stschmidt
Looking at the list from this year there were quite a few different AOC's selected but 11A was predominant. You will see very few Medical Officers (70B) selected. Don't know if that was due to lack of applicants or type of person applying. Could be a little of both. Just my two cents.
Steve This is somewhat secondhand, but my understanding from a friend who was a Group Surgeon with 10th Group is that the Surgeon General of the Army generally opposes losing his doctors to another branch, after the time and money the Army invests in them. While SF can get priority over other Army-competitive branches, the Medical Corps may have a veto over branch transfers.
The Reaper
06-16-2004, 09:43
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
This is somewhat secondhand, but my understanding from a friend who was a Group Surgeon with 10th Group is that the Surgeon General of the Army generally opposes losing his doctors to another branch, after the time and money the Army invests in them. While SF can get priority over other Army-competitive branches, the Medical Corps may have a veto over branch transfers.
Doctors do not Branch transfer, they merely complete the training and receive a beret and tab.
They have been permittted to attend and denied the opportunity to. Current policy is that they may go to all phases but the language phase (Phase V). The exception is that they are presently sent to SERE first, to determine their suitability for further SF training.
If they are not permitted to attend, then we are going to run out of SF qualified Docs to fill positions in the headquarters, and that would be a seriously bad thing.
TR
Airbornelawyer
06-16-2004, 10:11
Thanks for the firsthand info. When my friend finished his internship and got to Carson, he had problems with AMEDD releasing him to go to the Q and I don't think he ever did (though I've lost touch). He did go to the undersea medicine program at Panama City and a few other places.
The chief group surgeon at 11th Group was tabbed, but I don't recall any of the other medical officers being so.
Has having a CIB-wearing and Ranger-tabbed Surgeon General affected AMEDD's attitude toward its doctors getting their boots dirty?
stschmidt
06-16-2004, 10:32
Thank you both for the clarification. I should have been a little more specific in my response though. I was talking in reference Medical Service Corps Officers and their lack of applications, desire to apply, whatever it may be. Looking over the past couple of years I have only seen a few.
The Reaper
06-16-2004, 11:00
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
Thanks for the firsthand info. When my friend finished his internship and got to Carson, he had problems with AMEDD releasing him to go to the Q and I don't think he ever did (though I've lost touch). He did go to the undersea medicine program at Panama City and a few other places.
The chief group surgeon at 11th Group was tabbed, but I don't recall any of the other medical officers being so.
Has having a CIB-wearing and Ranger-tabbed Surgeon General affected AMEDD's attitude toward its doctors getting their boots dirty?
Not sure about that, but I have a half dozen physician friends who are SF Tabbed.
The Surgeons at USSOCOM, USASOC, and the Dean of the SOF Med School at Bragg are almost always SF qualified.
Until recently, physicians were not permitted to attend the SFQC. That could change again.
I know of no SF qualified MSC officers.
TR
Deleted, asked same question on multiple forums and failed to read instructions before posting.
TR
Until recently, physicians were not permitted to attend the SFQC. That could change again.
TR
We tried to get my old boss (BN MD) in the program and it was an uphill battle that we didn't win.
Personally, I wished they let the BN Doctors and Chaplains go through. I don't see this happening with the war and the need for training slots at a premium right now.
Doc
Warrior-Mentor
07-24-2005, 15:54
1.) Which Officer MOS do you feel would provide the greatest experience necessary to operate as an 18A? More specifically, would working in something like the Intelligence or Medical branches give more useful training than in the Infantry branch?
2.) Since it seems as though there are more applicants for an 18-A than there are open slots, is there an MOS that would increase my chances to be later selected for SFAS?
3.) Is Ranger School still an option for non-Combat Arms officers?
As a sidenote, I'd just like to extend my gratitude for those who have responded to this forum. While there seems to be ample information concerning the NCO SF MOS, it has been exceedingly difficult to find a good source of discussion about pursuing a military career as an 18A. If anyone can recommend any good books or websites that address this topic, I would be in your debt.
1. 11A.
2. No.
3. My understanding is that it's now opened up to non-combat arms. The reality is the majority of slots still go to the Infantry.
Ref your last question about books to read specific to being or becoming an 18A...you won't find one written for a market that small...most books are targeted for "niche" markets of at least 200,000 people. I wrote GET SELECTED for a micro-niche (all SFAS Candidates), considering there's only about 3,000 men going to SFAS a year (10x classes of up to 300 studs).
Best bet is to read GET SELECTED, then ask SF O's (Me, Reaper, Razor, etc) about their experiences and advice. That way, you've got a foundation to ask from and you're not asking redundant things that have been covered already.
Best,
JM
1. i was an 11A...i was first selected for OCS as a 35A, but after seeing how the world shook out during my 90 days of bliss, i opted for Infantry branch...probably should have done that from the outset (almost wound up in the Corps of Engineers)...
2. don't know about now...
3. once again, i've been away for awhile...i know this...for a year and a half, this was my mantra..."Every Infantry lieutenant will be encouraged to attend Ranger School and all efforts will be made by the Trainers to prepare them for that endeavor..."
my son, who attended IOBC not all that long ago says that mantra is still in effect...Infantry LTs are expected to want to be Ranger School graduates and the course (IOBC or whatever passes for that these days) stresses the importance of that training, perhaps, (IMNSHO) to the detriment of other instruction...
as far as sources of information about the 18A career field, it is not an accession branch...very few of us served in SF at Lieutenants, even fewer as 2LTs...the days of LTs on A detachments are over, so until an officer has been in for awhile, there's not a lot of reason to discuss the career field during the pre-commissioning years, once again, IMNHO...
by the way, TR...a long time ago, in a land far away, i knew an MSC branched SF qualified officer...CRS, but i believe he was an SF medic gone astray...he had the group medical platoon at Devens around 77-78...?
The Reaper
07-24-2005, 18:31
by the way, TR...a long time ago, in a land far away, i knew an MSC branched SF qualified officer...CRS, but i believe he was an SF medic gone astray...he had the group medical platoon at Devens around 77-78...?
That is different. He was SF before he took a commission.
I seriously doubt that MSC would let one of their guys go SF, Medical Branch only does it to let them get the Tab, not to be Detachment Commanders.
Then there is SGT Woods.
TR
That is different. He was SF before he took a commission.true...although i understand that now it is not as straightforward for a prior service SF guy to branch SF after OCS and a tour in an accession branch...glad i did what i could when i did...
DoctorDoom
07-25-2005, 05:13
x
CommoGeek
07-25-2005, 06:50
Then there is SGT Woods.
TR
Sir,
Are you speaking of the MAJ turned SGT from 3/20?
The Reaper
07-25-2005, 08:15
I'm being told that the only way any department in MC would allow an O3 doctor go to SFAS and the SFQC is if it did not interfere with their residency training, in other words during the GMO year. Since AMEDD is doing away with GMO years in the Army, the word I've gotten was "it ain't gonna happen so don't even ask." Given the high requirements for general surgeons right now, and for all doctors in the Army, combined with the need for slots for candidates that will actually serve on ODA's, it makes sense. The Army doesn't spend all this time and money training us so we can get hurt, waste training slots, or otherwise gum up the works.
I was also told by my Department Chief that the FAST teams are the way doctors work with SF, and there's no reason to have SF qualified doctors except in certain specific positions in USASOC. He said that it makes much more sense for 18D's to fill the surgeon slots at USASOC and SOCOM, rather than expect enough bookworm types like us to apply and then actually make it through the Q course.
Could just be their way of telling me me nicely...
BS.
If you want to go as a Doctor, and meet the requirements, follow my instructions. Call the USASOC Surgeon.
AFAIK, physicians going to assigmments in Group are occasionally permitted to attend the 18A Track SFQC, if you pass SERE and SFAS first.
TR
Molon Labe
07-25-2005, 09:29
3. No idea. Why not go as a cadet?
TR
Just to chime in on the Ranger School issue and cadets....
Currently, Cadets from USMA, ROTC etc cannot attend Ranger School. The only time that the 60+ day course would fit into is the summer. Because we cannot recycle (that would cut into the academic school year, and lord knows we can't sacrfice math for military training....), we cannot attend....
But we sure can go to SFAS as a cadet!
Molon Labe
Never Quit
The Reaper
07-25-2005, 09:50
But we sure can go to SFAS as a cadet!
Molon Labe
Never Quit
Which is as complete and utter a waste of time as I have ever seen.
TR
The Reaper
07-25-2005, 09:51
Sir,
Are you speaking of the MAJ turned SGT from 3/20?
Yes.
TR
DoctorDoom
07-25-2005, 15:22
x
Which is as complete and utter a waste of time as I have ever seen.what is the point in SFAS prior to commissioning...? is the intent to branch-detail officers at accession, then put them in the pipeline after 3-4 years?
The Reaper
07-25-2005, 15:43
what is the point in SFAS prior to commissioning...? is the intent to branch-detail officers at accession, then put them in the pipeline after 3-4 years?
Negative.
This is a drug deal between GOs to let cadets play soldier for a few weeks.
Cadets are not evaluated by commanders in multiple OERs prior to attending, selected by a board, or held to the same standards as officers attending SFAS.
Nevertheless, they are permitted to attend, while ROTC cadets and OCS candidates are not.
IMHO, it is a waste of slots.
TR
Cadets are not evaluated by commanders in multiple OERs prior to attending, selected by a board, or held to the same standards as officers attending SFAS.so, if a cadet completes SFAS while a cadet at USMA, would still be required to attend for the record, as it were, after commissioning...? i agree...a waste of time and assets...what ever happened to Camp Buckner...? couldn't a detachment or three go up to WP and conduct some valuable training that would be of long term benefit...
Airbornelawyer
07-25-2005, 16:14
so, if a cadet completes SFAS while a cadet at USMA, would still be required to attend for the record, as it were, after commissioning...? i agree...a waste of time and assets...what ever happened to Camp Buckner...? couldn't a detachment or three go up to WP and conduct some valuable training that would be of long term benefit...
My old battalion - 1/11 SFG(A) - was headquartered at Newburgh, NY, maybe 20 miles from USMA. We used to conduct training for the cadets and IIRC even ran an air assault school for them.
The Reaper
07-25-2005, 16:35
so, if a cadet completes SFAS while a cadet at USMA, would still be required to attend for the record, as it were, after commissioning...?
It used to be that way when it started. No credit but the knowledge that you had made it.
Then a new SWCS CG decided that they should get credit for having completed SFAS.
No idea what the current deal is.
TR
CommoGeek
07-26-2005, 00:07
Yes.
TR
Thank you. His case and career path were "different" as I recall from the normal surgeon.
Blue Skies, SGT Wood.
Molon Labe
07-26-2005, 03:39
Molon Labe
brownapple
07-26-2005, 07:20
Good for you, cadet.
Ranger School was once open to cadets, despite the recycle issue. And it was a darn good experience for cadets as well... pass or fail.
I can't explain to you the feeling of building a team out of individuals give it a try...i'm listening...i am interested in hearing how that happens...
For the QPs, while you may still disagree, I only respectfully ask that you be mindful who you disagree to. why should i be mindful of whom i may disagree with...? i find that a rather curious statement...were i of a mind, i might take offense to that comment...
The Reaper
07-26-2005, 08:16
Molon Labe:
I hear a lot about how beneficial it was for you. Memememe. That is not the sound of a team member.
What did SF get out of it?
I thought that SFAS stood for Special Forces Assessment and Selection. When will you all be joining the force, if ever? This course is not designed to educate or train, the intent of SFAS is to assess and select qualified soldiers with the potential for SF training and send them to the SFQC. Yet you and your comrades were not sent there for that purpose.
What would you tell the 8 ODAs that are in the box without a full complement of team members and will not get them for a little while longer? Why are their replacements late? Because their slots to SFAS were given to cadets taking the course for summer sport and to "lead senior NCOs and even commissioned officers"?
I guess we could let you cadets have a platoon in Iraq for 30 days as well. That would be good leadership training for YOU. What about the people going through with you? I was out there while you were going through. This experimentation is always fun for the leader. I am not sure that many "senior NCOs and commissioned officers" find it entertaining to be the training aid for a cadet. The commander and 1SG were told they had to take you. They did not have a choice. I am pretty sure that they would have rather had soldiers or actual officers to select and assess.
The only opportunity? What happened to Airborne, Ranger, Air Assault, or the CTLT programs? So SWCS is solely responsible for entertaining a bunch of kids on summer break? What is next, skydiving lessons for you at MFF School?
What happens when a female cadet files a complaint that this is a summer training opportunity which she is being denied and it will adversely affect her career if she is not permitted to attend? Will we have female cadets in SFAS?
While you are entitled to your opinion, do not be dropping SF personnel names on this board again. Finally, as far as your request that I "be mindful who you disagree to", as an SF officer, I will make my opinion known whenever I am asked for it, and your concerns for summer entertainment for yourself and your fellow cadets will take a back seat to my concerns for my SF brothers.
Have a very SF day.
TR
Molon Labe, the important thing for you to take away from this is a realization that you simply don't know what you don't know. As a cadet, I would have given my left nut to attend SFAS, because it is a great challenge and let's a cadet 'put the 'M' in USMA' after a long, demanding academic year. I now realize that while it would have been good for me, it would not have been good for the Army as a whole, and the bottom line is that your service is not for you, but the Army; don't ever forget that. Do cadets still have the opportunity to attend the Sapper Leader Course? That's a great small unit leader training course that would actually benefit both you (from the leadership and SUT skills you'd learn) and your future soldiers (due to the leadership and self-awareness you'd gain). How about the Mountain Warfare Course run by the VTARNG? That's an excellent introductory course to the military application of mountaineering, and if you didn't notice, there are a few significant terrain features in Afghanistan. As a vast majority of the regular Army has little to no mountaineering training, the skills you could learn there would make you a valuable asset to your unit. If you are truly concerned about learning to be a good combat leader, are you a member of the Infantry Tactics Club? The Orienteering Club? Are you on your company's Sandhurst team every year? There are many, many opportunities at USMA to learn skills to make you a better leader without needing to attend a specialized assessment and selection course for a unit to which you can't even begin to apply for at least four years from now. This is of course assuming you even decide to apply, and that your packet is accepted (given the number of officer applicants, your acceptance is far from a sure thing). A great deal can change in four years, to include the decision to allow your SFAS to count. Don't be too presumptuous about what will be reality in four years.
In short, be glad you were able to attend SFAS, assume that it was a good training experience for when you'll have to do it again (if you're even afforded the opportunity), and stop to consider exactly who you're lecturing here before you get carried away in youthful exuberance. This is an excellent lesson in knowing your audience; if you remember it, it will serve you well in your military career.
Warrior-Mentor
07-26-2005, 14:26
So SWCS is solely responsible for entertaining a bunch of kids on summer break? What is next, skydiving lessons for you at MFF School?
TR
We shut that down.
Won't go into details but it was CRACK. PURE CRACK.
JM SENDS.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-26-2005, 14:32
Good for you, cadet.
Ranger School was once open to cadets, despite the recycle issue. And it was a darn good experience for cadets as well... pass or fail.
Oh please, this was a hand holding experience at best. Standards were adjusted to meet other ROTC requirements and for the most part many of the cadets were ill prepared to even understand what this was all about. The worst thing I saw from this effort was that they came back to ROTC programs thinking that leadership was defined by how loud you could yell and how many push ups you could make the underclassmen do. This program was not an incentive it was a command directed outward bound experience with blanks. While some cadets had the benefit of good preparation and actually came away with some requisite skills associated with a Ranger School Graduate, more came away with time ill spent in the preparation for service as commissioned officers where those skills might have been actually of some benefit. The Army lost a lot of good slots for active duty soldiers who could have actually benefited from this training and I have to totally agree with both TR and Razor's comments on SFAS.
Jack Moroney
Molon Labe,
I think the "O's" covered everything fairly well. Your situational awareness and name dropping are two areas you need work on.
We all make mistakes. I apologized for one today in front of everybody affected. You should follow that advice.
You're a Cadet. Learn from this situation and do the right thing.
Doc
brownapple
07-26-2005, 19:50
Oh please, this was a hand holding experience at best. Standards were adjusted to meet other ROTC requirements and for the most part many of the cadets were ill prepared to even understand what this was all about. The worst thing I saw from this effort was that they came back to ROTC programs thinking that leadership was defined by how loud you could yell and how many push ups you could make the underclassmen do. This program was not an incentive it was a command directed outward bound experience with blanks. While some cadets had the benefit of good preparation and actually came away with some requisite skills associated with a Ranger School Graduate, more came away with time ill spent in the preparation for service as commissioned officers where those skills might have been actually of some benefit. The Army lost a lot of good slots for active duty soldiers who could have actually benefited from this training and I have to totally agree with both TR and Razor's comments on SFAS.
Jack Moroney
Not my experience. And the ROTC detachment I was at sent more cadets to Ranger School than any other ROTC detachment in the nation during the 3 years period that it was open while I was a cadet (the opportunity was closed just before I would have attended along with 3 other cadets). Not one of the BGSU graduates was a yeller. And those who failed were pretty good leaders as well. One of the graduates even became a Chaplin.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-26-2005, 19:59
Not my experience. And the ROTC detachment I was at sent more cadets to Ranger School than any other ROTC detachment in the nation during the 3 years period that it was open while I was a cadet (the opportunity was closed just before I would have attended along with 3 other cadets). Not one of the BGSU graduates was a yeller. And those who failed were pretty good leaders as well. One of the graduates even became a Chaplin.
That is good to hear. But when I walked the lanes with them and saw the adjustments required to the program, regardless of what you think was produced it was not the same as a troop that wentthrough the regular program. One of the reasons why it was closed was my after action report to the ROTC folks which was substantiated by others that had observed the same problems. So if you missed out as a ROTC cadet quess you can blame me and a host of others that did not share your experience.
brownapple
07-26-2005, 20:19
That is good to hear. But when I walked the lanes with them and saw the adjustments required to the program, regardless of what you think was produced it was not the same as a troop that wentthrough the regular program. One of the reasons why it was closed was my after action report to the ROTC folks which was substantiated by others that had observed the same problems. So if you missed out as a ROTC cadet quess you can blame me and a host of others that did not share your experience.
Did you write your report in 1978? Or later? I understand that it was reopened to cadets after I was commissioned and then closed again.
Btw, I think the reason that BGSU was successful at sending Cadets to Ranger (and also had a reputation at FT Lewis of sending well prepared cadets) was because of the efforts of certain cadre, particularly two Infantry Officers and two Special Forces NCOs.
Personally, I feel its wrong the cadets even have the chance for any of the aboved schools, when its so hard for Ad and National guard soldiers to try to get those slots(due to Mos and available slots per units). People who are already serving and could use the skills should have prority for them not some Civillian on school break.
just my .02
DoctorDoom
07-27-2005, 02:47
x
The Reaper
07-27-2005, 07:32
Sir, I apologize for asking again, but I'm confused. These are physicians who are in the middle of residency training? or completed residency for their first utilization tour? I'm still getting the negative on even beginning the SF training as a resident O-3.
Physicians who are assigned to USASOC or who wish to be. I would assume that those assigned to an actual SF Group have the highest likelihood of attending.
Those physicians would be O-3s.
IIRC, they have to attend SERE before SFAS.
Again, the USASOC Surgeon could explain the policy to you.
Basically, can't get to an SFG, no real need for the training.
TR