Stealerships and Car Troubles [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

The Reaper

07-19-2008, 16:56

Z06:

All great points.

Not bashing Ford, I have owned cars from all of the Big Three, Porsche, Nissan, Triumph, Toyota, Honda, Acura, and probably a couple of other that escape me. My very first car was a '67 Mustang. I loved it.

But since you brought it up, the last Ford I owned was an Explorer I bought new in 1993.

Within a few thousand miles, the O2 sensor went out on my way to work one morning, and the thing started smoking like a fiend.

I limped into a dealership an hour or so from home.

When the Service Department got around to me, they asked where I bought the car. When I named another dealer, they told me to have a seat. They eventually checked the vehicle out, told me it was the O2 sensor, and to call someone to come get me, that I could have the truck back in a couple of days.

Now bear in mind that an O2 sensor is a plug, much like a spark plug, that screws into the exhaust pipe. It has one wire connected to it. Given one in hand and access to the underside of the car, and the proper wrench, it would take a monkey maybe ten minutes to replace one.

When I asked why the delay, they said that they did not have the part in stock, and that they would have to get one from the nearest larger town dealership the next day or so on their scheduled parts run. Basically, I was an inconvenience to them.

After I leaned on them for a few hours, they sent someone at lunchtime to pick up the part on a run. I finally got the vehicle back after eight hours, about 1600, having missed an entire work day. No one ever called or followed up, or asked me what I thought of the service.

Contrast this to the local Acura dealership. I take my car in for an oil change. I did not buy the car from them. The service writer inquires about any other issues I might have with the car. They give me an option of a loaner, or waiting no more than an hour. They wash and vacuum my car. The lounge is comfortable and clean, with a TV, magazines, papers, and free coffee and sodas. I just went in last week for a minor recall issue. Car is now over four years old. I get a new loaner with 2,000 miles on the clock while they work on mine. They also check a minor complaint, and fix an item which is no longer under warranty for free, as a "good faith" repair. The cashier asks me about my experience. The service manager knows me (and my family) by name, and calls me. Acura also calls a couple of days later, and asks me if they can email me a formal survey.

That is why I no longer consider Ford when car shopping. The designs, minus the new Mustang, are uninspired, the performance is sub-standard, the products are poorly assembled of low-quality materials, the efficiency of the powertrains is poor, the prices are high, the depreciation unfavorable, the sales departments the worst of the bad old days, the service departments uncaring, the warranties barely honored, and to top it all off, the Ford Foundation supports a host of liberal causes that I do not appreciate, and do not care to have any portion of my money going to.

I could tell the same sort of stories about every brand I have driven, except for the Japanese owned companies. I do not think that the US assembled Japanese models are fully up to the Japanese standard, but they seem to be closer than the US brands, and with a tremendously better attitude throughout the ownership experience to boot. I moved my Mother (who had never owned an import) from a Caddy to an Acura RL. I was worried about the Caddy stranding her somewhere. She is very happy.

I am sorry that the corporate leadership, unions, and greedy dealers have managed to wreck what was formerly a quality, world-leading US industry. It is unfathomable to me why the Americans putting parts on a car on the line in Detroit for $45 an hour cannot do it as well as Americans in Marysville, Ohio doing it for $20 an hour, but that seems to be the way it is these days.

Fool me once, shame on you; you fool me twice....

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

kgoerz

07-21-2008, 05:46

The Reaper

07-21-2008, 07:18

My wifes truck which wasn't even a year old blew its engine. Ford said the warranty didn't cover it since she was using the Truck for her Horshoeing Business. She had the placards on the side of the truck when she brought it in. They would of never known otherwise. So now I am paying for a new Truck that we don't even have. We had to just leave it at the dealership. That was my fifth and last vehicle I will ever buy from ford.
If your a volunteer fireman make sure you take your lights out if you are going to use the warranty. That will void your warranty also. What a bunch of crooks. This was Lafeyette Ford in Fayetteville that did this.

LaFayette has a long history of being difficult to deal with.

Does Ford not warranty the commercial vehicles they sell?

Sorry for your troubles, K.

Didn't mean to turn this informative thread into a Ford bash. I could tell the same stories on Dodge, or Porsche, for that matter.

TR

zuluzerosix

07-21-2008, 09:13

Z06:

All great points.

Not bashing Ford, I have owned cars from all of the Big Three, Porsche, Nissan, Triumph, Toyota, Honda, Acura, and probably a couple of other that escape me. My very first car was a '67 Mustang. I loved it.

But since you brought it up, the last Ford I owned was an Explorer I bought new in 1993.

Within a few thousand miles, the O2 sensor went out on my way to work one morning, and the thing started smoking like a fiend.

I limped into a dealership an hour or so from home.

When the Service Department got around to me, they asked where I bought the car. When I named another dealer, they told me to have a seat. They eventually checked the vehicle out, told me it was the O2 sensor, and to call someone to come get me, that I could have the truck back in a couple of days.

Now bear in mind that an O2 sensor is a plug, much like a spark plug, that screws into the exhaust pipe. It has one wire connected to it. Given one in hand and access to the underside of the car, and the proper wrench, it would take a monkey maybe ten minutes to replace one.

When I asked why the delay, they said that they did not have the part in stock, and that they would have to get one from the nearest larger town dealership the next day or so on their scheduled parts run. Basically, I was an inconvenience to them.

After I leaned on them for a few hours, they sent someone at lunchtime to pick up the part on a run. I finally got the vehicle back after eight hours, about 1600, having missed an entire work day. No one ever called or followed up, or asked me what I thought of the service.

Contrast this to the local Acura dealership. I take my car in for an oil change. I did not buy the car from them. The service writer inquires about any other issues I might have with the car. They give me an option of a loaner, or waiting no more than an hour. They wash and vacuum my car. The lounge is comfortable and clean, with a TV, magazines, papers, and free coffee and sodas. I just went in last week for a minor recall issue. Car is now over four years old. I get a new loaner with 2,000 miles on the clock while they work on mine. They also check a minor complaint, and fix an item which is no longer under warranty for free, as a "good faith" repair. The cashier asks me about my experience. The service manager knows me (and my family) by name, and calls me. Acura also calls a couple of days later, and asks me if they can email me a formal survey.

That is why I no longer consider Ford when car shopping. The designs, minus the new Mustang, are uninspired, the performance is sub-standard, the products are poorly assembled of low-quality materials, the efficiency of the powertrains is poor, the prices are high, the depreciation unfavorable, the sales departments the worst of the bad old days, the service departments uncaring, the warranties barely honored, and to top it all off, the Ford Foundation supports a host of liberal causes that I do not appreciate, and do not care to have any portion of my money going to.

I could tell the same sort of stories about every brand I have driven, except for the Japanese owned companies. I do not think that the US assembled Japanese models are fully up to the Japanese standard, but they seem to be closer than the US brands, and with a tremendously better attitude throughout the ownership experience to boot. I moved my Mother (who had never owned an import)from a Caddy to an Acura RL. I was worried about the Caddy stranding her somewhere. She is very happy.

I am sorry that the corporate leadership, unions, and greedy dealers have managed to wreck what was formerly a quality, world-leading US industry. It is unfathomable to me why the Americans putting parts on a car on the line in Detroit for $45 an hour cannot do it as well as Americans in Marysville, Ohio doing it for $20 an hour, but that seems to be the way it is these days.

Fool me once, shame on you; you fool me twice....

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Thanks for sharing, Sir. But this is exactly why we will never see you again. It is shameful. Ford has nobody to blame but Ford. The dealer has to share blame too. Since you didn't buy your vehicle from that dealer you went on the shelf. That is common practice today. What they don't understand is they missed a golden oppertunity to try and win you back. Dealerships survive on the revenue generated from the service department. They are ones who pay the dealership's bills. That department missed a chance to earn you business too!

We did it to ourselves. We should all be buying American-right? The Japanese and the Europeans are beating our pants off in innovation, reliability, dependability and service.

We have to rethink the way we do business because we are not winning too many hearts and minds. The American auto industry is at stake.
:boohoo

I wonder how much worse will it get before we get it as an industry?

cold1

07-21-2008, 10:12

Well since we are sharing.

I like Fords, I have driven them as company vehicles since 94. Ford dealerships and service departments can kiss my dogs A$$.

My wife (gf at the time) bought a brand new 04 explorer Eddie Baurer edition. She put a healthy chunk down on it and finaced the rest. This was done at the big dealership in Durham, NC. 2 months later the back windows stop going down, service department replaces the motors. All work for 2 months same thing happens. Motors replaced again.

We get married she moves down to Chatham county with me. Windows screw up again. Take it to the local dealership in Siler. I tell them what has happened in the past. They look at it, all day long, and tell me that there was some "goo" in the tracks causing the windows to stick. 2 weeks later we are back same problem. They change the motors and they work for 2 months and we are back again. I explain that there is no way 6 motors could go bad consecutively. That there had to be another problem. I am assured that they will take care of it. I return to pick up the car the next day and the when the windows go down there is this LOUD Pop. The kind that you feel sitting in the drivers set. Every time that you open the rear driver side door you get a different pop. I get the service manager and he figures out that his guy put in the wrong motor in that door. I told him mistakes happen and that they needed to fix it, and also I needed a loaner car for my wife to drive.

The co owner of the place comes out and tells me that he does not provide loaners to people who do not buy cars from him. This is the third time I have brought it here for the same problem, never asked for a loaner before, your guy screwed it up I need a loaner. Long argument short I did not get the loaner I called him everything but a child of God, and took the car to another dealership. They kept changing the motors out until the warranty went out now they want $750 to change them out again.

My wife took the car to a local mechanic in Lee county. She went there at 8 am, they took her on to work. By Noon the car was at her work the switches and wiring harness for the switch had been changed out.

The Bill was $85. Guess who gets my business and who gets trashed every chance I get.

The Reaper

07-21-2008, 11:02

Okay, you got me started now.

Non-Ford stories.

1986 Porsche 944 Turbo. Subject to intermittently not restarting with hot restarts. Run the engine up to temp, shut it off, and the engine will not restart. At that point, you have two choices. Wait for an hour or two till it cools off, at which point, it starts fine, or have your ODA push start the Porsche after PT. Good PT for the team, but since I am always in the driver's seat, not cool. So much for the vaunted German ubercar engineering.

Fayetteville Porsche dealer replaces fuel pump, lines, electronics, no joy. Back for repair five times. Could not replicate (basically, I do not think they were warming it up adequately). I accuse them of being "parts swappers". They give up, and tell me that I should "only bring it back the next time it is not starting". Obviously, unless I drive around with a roll-back wrecker in my pocket, that will be difficult.

I take to parking it on hills to assist with solo starting. Months later, I am reading an article in a Porsche magazine, and in the Tech section, I find that other people have the same issue. It is a check valve in the fuel system located in the tank. I roll the Porsche down hill to start it, take the car to the dealer, and ask them if they replaced the check valve. "No, that could not be the source of the problem," they tell me. I get the service manager, AKA, "King of the Parts Swappers" to humor me and replace the 39 cent part. I pick the vehicle up and it starts flawlessly the remainder of the years I own it.

Brand new 1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 extended-cab long bed with the V-10 and five speed.

Picked up the truck in Georgia, drive it back to NC. New car smell, no problems.

Within a week, I am noticing a whirring when the clutch pedal is depressed, having owned a Triumph, I am pretty good at diagnosing manual transmission problems, so I go to the local dealer in Sanford, NC and tell them that the throw-out bearing sounds like it is going bad after less than 1,000 miles.

They tell me that everything is up to specs and there is nothing to worry about.

I am getting sticky shifting and the whirring sound is getting worse. They tell me that it MIGHT be going bad, keep driving it. I ask what do I do with it, they say, "Keep driving it till it breaks". Two hundred miles later, I call back and tell them to pick it up in the parking lot of the local Wal-Mart, and to order a new pressure plate and flywheel to go with the throw-out bearing. They ask why, and I explain to them that the ball bearings from the throw-out bearing make a bad impression when they fly out and trapped between the clutch and pressure plates. They have parts delays for a week or so, and they finally fix it after I call the service manager three times. Three years later, I hear the noise starting again, and I take it to the Dodge dealer in Brandon, FL. He pulls the inspection plate and tells me that I should not put non-MOPAR parts in my truck. I tell him that the only time the bell-housing has ever been cracked was by my hometown Dodge dealer. Go figure.

The Dodge Ram is starting to occasionally spark knock heavily after hot restarts. Go to a gas station with the truck warmed up, shut it off for a few minutes, restart it and it sounds like a diesel rattling. Shut it off and restart, it runs fine. Take it in six times to the local dealer in Brandon. "Could not replicate", "Could not replicate", "Could not replicate". They swap parts to no avail. Finally, when I pick it up for the 7th time, and start to drive off, it does it. I pull back in and call the service manager over. He has a tech come over and get the diagnostic box. He hooks it up and we take it out for a test drive with him watching the meter. We rattle along like a fresh spray paint can in the hands of a tagger, and after a couple of miles, he tells me to bring it back to the shop. He says that he has never heard a gas engine sound like that. We pull up in front of the service manager, who asks the tech what the deal is. Tech says, and I quote, "Diagnostic test set says that it is running fine." Service manager shuts the truck off and restarts it, and it does not knock. He tells me, "Sounds like it is running fine now to me". He refuses to work on it any more. We get the regional service manager involved, and he says, well the truck is nearing the end of the warranty, and Chrysler has done all that we are prepared to do to fix it. I still own the truck, and it still does it occasionally.

Wipe out a large deer in the same truck (almost totalled) and it goes in to the only dealer that USAA recommended with an opening on the body shop schedule to repair it. Six weeks later, I get the truck back and the ABS light is on. I take it back to the same shop three times for the trouble light, finally, they farm it out to the Fayetteville Dodge dealer across the street for diagnosis. They say that I have a faulty ABS module, and that it will be about $600 to repair, could be more if other components are bad. I tell them that it was working fine before the accident, but the adjuster denies the repair saying there is no evidence (beyond my word for it) that the condition was not pre-existing. The body shop dealer is no help. Finally, in desperation, I take it to my neighborhood shade tree mechanic, who calls me back an hour after I dropped it off. "You can come get your truck". I asked him how he found a deal on an ABS box and got it installed so quickly. He replies, "there wasn't anything wrong with the ABS, the ground cable on the battery was not reconnected properly when they reinstalled it." I swear to God. Called the USAA adjuster back, told him the story, faxed him the bill for an hour of labor from my local wrench, and advised him to reconsider whether the Hendricks body shop or local Dodge dealer should be allowed to handle sharp objects like pens, much less work on cars.

I would tell a few more on the Dodge Intrepid we owned, but that would take more time than I have to type today.

TR

The Reaper

07-21-2008, 11:04

Well, we were cluttering up a good thread from Z06 on car pricing, so I started this tread for the dealership horror stories.

TR

zuluzerosix

07-21-2008, 11:30

My wifes truck which wasn't even a year old blew its engine. Ford said the warranty didn't cover it since she was using the Truck for her Horshoeing Business. She had the placards on the side of the truck when she brought it in. They would of never known otherwise. So now I am paying for a new Truck that we don't even have. We had to just leave it at the dealership. That was my fifth and last vehicle I will ever buy from ford.
If your a volunteer fireman make sure you take your lights out if you are going to use the warranty. That will void your warranty also. What a bunch of crooks. This was Lafeyette Ford in Fayetteville that did this.

This is pure BS the part of the dealer. When the F&I manager registered the warranty with Ford, all they add to do was check the box that said commercial use. The added surchage to the dealer's cost is only $250.

rubberneck

07-21-2008, 11:48

I have an experience that mirrors the Reapers but it was with a Nissan dealer not Ford. Bought my wife a brand new Quest that had to be taken back to Nissan 6 times in the first year for 6 different issues. The last of the six required towing and the dealers response was to call AAA instead of sending a flatbed to pick it up themselves. I will never consider a Nissan after the way the car performed and the total lack of empathy from the dealer, and even worse Nissan USA whom I wrote on at least two occasions to voice my displeasure.

The Honda dealership that I bought my last two cars from are great. Bright, clean showrooms and waiting areas, free high speed internet access, complimentary soft drinks and popcorn, and loaner cars for everything that will take more than 1 hour. I just bought a Subaru for the wife and they have bent over backwards to ensure it was a pleasant experience.

How hard is it to treat you customers right. I just don't get some of these car dealers.

4StringSlinger

07-21-2008, 16:10

Unfortunately, me experiences with the Big 3 mirror many of yours.

I have owned many domestics, mainly trucks and SUV's, Ford, Chevy, and Jeep. My first 'new' truck was a '99 Ford Ranger. By '01, it had gone through an 02 sensor, three fuel pumps, a transmission, and finally threw a rod...even though I had maintained it religiously. No love from Ford. I'll never own another. Had to sell it for scrap and roll the debt into a used Jeep. At the time I worked as a tech at the Jeep store, so I could massage the numbers enough to not get raped too bad...rape is still rape though. :rolleyes: The upside was I could fix it when it broke, parts were cost for me.

In 2003, I bought a brand-new Toyota Tacoma, x-cab, V6, TRD 4x4. 5 1/2 years later, never a trip to the dealer, tough as nails, no rattles or squeaks, everything a light truck should be. Never left me stranded, ever. Bought the wife a Matrix in '03, same thing...both cars are boringly reliable. We are Toyota customers for life. My pops bought a 4-runner brand new in '88...sold it last year with 280k on the clock. In that time, he rebuilt the trans once, and replaced the AC compressor, replaced the timing chain.

I would love nothing more than to be able to walk into a Chevy, Ford, Dodge dealer and feel comfortable knowing that I am buying a quality truck that will last 10+ years, but I have been burned too many times. At least the 70's era GM trucks I had were fairly reliable...or at least cheap to fix.

I look forward to a day when I can buy domestic again, and be proud that americans build great vehicles. I hope it's not a pipe dream. :boohoo

Red Flag 1

07-21-2008, 16:41

A good Ford story.

Bought a 1999 Expedition new in C'ville,Va . At 60,000 miles a snap ring in the tranny launched its self and bagged the transmission; 10,000 miles out of warranty. Had it towed back to the dealer in Charlottesville, Va. The dealership, Battlefield Ford, lobbied Ford on my behalf and I got a new transmission under warranty after paying a $450.00 deductable. Ford also extended the warranty on engine and drivetrain to 100,00 miles. Used this @ 75,000 for head gasket replacement without question, $50.00 deductable.

Bought a new 2007 F-150 that has about 17,000 now. No problems.

Guess I'm lucky.

My Hondas have been more trouble, but that is another story.

RF 1

AngelsSix

07-21-2008, 17:50

I owned two Ford's. One was a Probe, one an Explorer. I bought the Explorer used at a dealer in VA (not a dealer) and the original warrantee was valid and transferred. I had the transmission fail at 58,000 miles. Ford made me pay $1,500.00 to rebuild the tranny. My ex husband stopped making payments and had the damn thing repo'd a short time later. Figures.
The Probe I bought used as well from one of those dealers in VA that charge an arm and a leg in finance charges. I had no choice at the time, but the car itself was an issue from day one. I must have replaced every major exhaust component in the car. Two sets of O2 sensors, a catalytic converter, you name it. I even changed out components under the hood to see if it would help. I constantly had a check engine light. I spent thousands on that car trying to get rid of that damn light. I finally got rid of it and bought a Dodge Durango. Best truck I ever owed. I traded that for a Jeep Cherokee Laredo when the mileage went out of warranty on the Dodge. I will probably go to the Toyota dealer and look for a 4 Runner or a Pathfinder next.

frostfire

07-21-2008, 21:31

.....Now bear in mind that an O2 sensor is a plug, much like a spark plug, that screws into the exhaust pipe. It has one wire connected to it. Given one in hand and access to the underside of the car, and the proper wrench, it would take a monkey maybe ten minutes to replace one.

.....Fayetteville Porsche dealer replaces fuel pump, lines, electronics, no joy. Back for repair five times. Could not replicate (basically, I do not think they were warming it up adequately). I accuse them of being "parts swappers"..... .....I get the service manager, AKA, "King of the Parts Swappers" to humor me and replace the 39 cent part. I pick the vehicle up and it starts flawlessly the remainder of the years I own it.

.....Finally, in desperation, I take it to my neighborhood shade tree mechanic, who calls me back an hour after I dropped it off. "You can come get your truck". I asked him how he found a deal on an ABS box and got it installed so quickly. He replies, "there wasn't anything wrong with the ABS, the ground cable on the battery was not reconnected properly when they reinstalled it."

hmmmm, reminds me of my 2nd car, a Corolla when the speedometer stopped working. Took it to the dealer, they said something was wrong with the speed sensor box. They replaced it, didn't fix the problem, so they replaced the entire dashboard display set-up. :mad: $700+. This, combined with other bad experience with a dealer mechanic lead me to believe the following:

Whether it's out of incompetence, or inconvience, or profit-chasing, or who-knows-what, dealer mechanics = part swapper. Here I am thinking that a (competent) mechanic should be one who does not go straight to replacing anything and everything, but actually fixes actual problem, even going to some ingineous Mcgyver solution that saves $$$. I will never, ever use a dealer mechanics again. Granted this is a generalization on my part and there are many crooks at repair shop also ( I'll never use my local Firestone), but I've observed enough from others experience and my own to notice the trend.

This past month, I accompanied a friend who got nail in his Corvette tire. The dealership couldn't/wouldn't even fix it and fulfill the warranty. Instead, they referred us to several other tire repair shops in the area. Since they were all backed up, at the end of the day, a back-woods mechanic in a hilbilly looking shop fixed the tire.

FWIW, now I sincerely believe the secret to many happy years with a car is to be willing to learn as much as possible about it (now I replace oil, filter etc. all the way to break system on my own ), and know at least one competent and honest mechanic.

zuluzerosix

12-31-2008, 16:26

Didn't think we needed a new thread on this, I just wanted to give you guys a heads up.

The Kelly Blue Book used to change it's value estimates every quarter. We just got a heads up they will be doing it on a weekly basis now.

I am referring specifically to Karpower, the KBB program that dealers use to get the actual (dealers dont use KBB.com) trade value.

I hope this makes sense. But you may be seeing the value of your vehicle change weekly if you are car shopping...

Just a heads up.

http://www.karpower.com/Marketing/index.aspx

This is the website that dealers use. It is very expensive to get a log on.

Happy New Year to everyone.

zuluzerosix

05-09-2009, 12:05

Hello folks, I hope everyone is doing well on this fine Saturday morning. I thought I would stop in and give you all an insider's update about about the car biz. This is purely from my perspective, so take this with a grain of salt.

Lending is starting to loosen up. But Credit Union financing is still the way to go. Big banks and finance companies rates are still very high. Citibank, Wachovia, Bank of America, Capital One Auto Finance to name a few are lending, but they are mostly at the beginning of the month. They are blowing through their allocated funds really fast, cherry picking the top tier credit customers only.

The Captive Lenders such as GMAC and Ford Motor Credit are offering suvenned rates right now, 0% for 72 months (which is a great deal-remember after 6 payments you can pay off the loan at any time with no penalty), but this is on select vehicles-usually the ones that need to sell the quickest.

Rebates are pretty fat right now-but do the math, if you have really good credit, sometimes it saves money to take the fat rebate and finance at your credit union instead of take no rebate and 0 % apr.

You need a finance calculator to do that, I can help with that send me a PM.

GMAC is now funding Chrysler loans-that is an interesting development.

The Kelly Blue Book values are actually going up! It changes every week now so stay away from the Blue Book they sell in the stores and always book your car online at http://www.kbb.com/

Our Ford dealership is doing well, we have actually had to hire another sales person. We have a different business model than most dealships, I think. Everything new except Hybrids is $250 over invoice plus rebates, and used cars have a $500 mark up. So we are blowing through alot of inventory.

Toyota just posted a 7 Billion dollar loss. This is devastating for the Japanese. GM and Ford have yet to post any profits and are still blowing through cash like a hot knife through butter. Ford has yet to take any 'Bailout Money," I hope we can stay the course. We are getting alot of good press about our improving quality and upcomming new product like the 2010 Fusion Hybrid and new Taurus. But I think we still have a way to go, and it will take years to win back consumers we have lost-if we even can.

Here are the average credit union rates right now, based on Tier 1 (Stellar Credit)

5.99% at 60 months.... West Coast
6.25% at 72 months.... East Coast
6.19% at 60 months.....Southwest
6.25% at 72 months.....Southwest

No number available to me for the Midwest. These numbers came from my Credit Union Direct Lending (CUDL) representative. The CUDL software allows me to submit application to credit unions.

Here are National rates for big lenders, these are top tier 0 and tier 1 rates. Based on 60 months.. Score 700+

Wachovia 7.59%
BOA 7.95%
Capital One 7.89%
Citi 7.99%
WaMu 7.25%

Here are the overnite averages as reported by bankrate.com

Auto Overnight Averages

Product Rate +/- Last week
48 Mo Used Car 7.91% 7.92%
48 Mo New Car 7.43% 7.44%
36 Mo Used Car 7.83% 7.83%
36 Mo New Car 7.17% 7.36%

So as you can see rates are a bit high, when you can get it in the 5% range at some credit unions.

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Hope I didn't wast anybody's time. Remember, if anyone needs info on any new Ford, Lincoln or Mercury product,
please send me a PM, I am here for you.

The Reaper

05-09-2009, 12:26

Z06:

Thanks for the insider perspective and advice.

Good gouge.

TR

echoes

05-09-2009, 12:59

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Hope I didn't wast anybody's time. Remember, if anyone needs info on any new Ford, Lincoln or Mercury product,
please send me a PM, I am here for you.

Zuluzerosix,

Wow! Thanks for writing such an informative post!:)

Good info to have indeed!

Holly

Gypsy

05-09-2009, 16:05

Z06, not a waste of time at all...thanks for the info it was very informative.

Roguish Lawyer

05-09-2009, 17:13

I had a Mercury Cougar XR7 in the early 90s, purchased used with maybe 15k miles, and I never had any problems with it. 96% domestic content, loved it. I now drive a Cadillac Escalade EXT. Not sure where it was assembled or the parts content, but except for door seals that leave a little to be desired, it freaking RULES. No problems with it, it is the most satisfying vehicle I have ever owned. I had terrible problems with a '68 Mustang I owned in the mid-80s, but I don't think you can whine about manufacturing with a car that old.

Red Flag 1

05-09-2009, 17:59

ZO6,

Thanks for the insight!!

RF 1

ZooKeeper

05-09-2009, 18:26

Zuluzerosix, great info. I am in the middle of a transfer & no longer will have a company vehicle, so I've been looking for a Toyota Tacoma the past few weeks. Basically, same thing everyone else is saying, I'm tired of the problems I've had with Jeep & GM vehicles I've had.
Anyways, when looking at financing, I'm finding a big difference between banks.
For example, Wells Fargo, who I do all my banking with, gave me a rate of 9%, while US Bank gave me a rate of 6.1% or 5.6% if I would open up a checking & savings account with them. The difference in rates surprised me.

greenberetTFS

05-10-2009, 02:26

I have a good Ford (Lincoln) story to add to this post....:) I've got 2 old Lincoln's that are a 1994 and 1999.... Town Cars, Signature series that have served me very well... They say cars like these will cost you an arm and a leg to repair.... And that is true,but that's the catch, I didn't buy them new... The 94 was 10 years old when I got it and the 99 was 5 years old when I bought it..... I've had them for about 5 years now and I've haven't had to spend more than $1,000 in minor repairs total on both of them.... The quality is there and I've had 7 Lincoln's in my lifetime and I'll vouch for their quality......:D

GB TFS :munchin

swpa19

05-10-2009, 05:52

Z06 is spot on re: Credit Union interest charges. Wife just bought an 09 Dodge Journey (We have for the last 10 years or so owned Caravans) the rate in this area is 6.15%.

The Reaper

05-10-2009, 06:46

Pentagon Federal is at 3.99% for up to 60 months.

Most of the military members here are eligible.

If you were in the market for a new car right now.

TR

Stras

05-10-2009, 12:32

Anyone who goes to Wilson Offroad here in Fayettenam is going to get F**Ked over hard.

I can't even begin to tell you just how bad they screwed my truck up. Would you like the Fuel Pump story where they replaced my fuel pump for me.. and then I drove the truck back to them with about 5 gallons of gas flowing out of the truck from the fuel pump seal (they fixed this frigging thing 5 times. before I just wrote these bozos off).

Never mind the Swaziland school of engineering feat that they did on my 3" lift. first the wrong lift kit, then put the rear springs on backwards, and the ensuing issues that I've had to bring back to them multiple times to fix under their warranty.

Keith Wilson is a POS !!!!

buddy of mine bought some new rims from them.. and of course they scratched (9" gouge) one of the rims.. then claimed it came in like that. oh yeah, he was caught in that lie.. when they realized that they opened the boxes on the new rims.

I'm still looking for a good offroad place to have my truck checked out to see what else I need fixed after I let wilson touch my truck.

BoyScout

05-10-2009, 22:07

During the 90's I was an amateur mechanic with a diploma from the Local VoTech and while I worked on a lot of gm vehicles, I learned a few things about Ford that was a little surprising. Things like they did not give out troubleshooting codes, even dealerships had a hard time getting them much less my school. There were other issues. While at school, the phrase "Ford and all their knowledge..." was commonly used.

shortbrownguy

05-10-2009, 22:34

Stras

05-11-2009, 08:44

Shortbrownguy,

Thanks,

I'm up there for med appts and will check them out.
Gives me another excuse to go shop for another Harley too.

zuluzerosix

05-11-2009, 10:29

There is a Ford Dealer in Fayettville, Crown Ford, if not mistaken. My Ford Factory rep complained to me on about all the problems and complaints with that place.

The Reaper

05-11-2009, 11:08

There is a Ford Dealer in Fayettville, Crown Ford, if not mistaken. My Ford Factory rep complained to me on about all the problems and complaints with that place.

Crown and Layfayette are the two Ford dealerships here.

Both bad places to do business, IMHO.

TR

echoes

05-11-2009, 12:07

Crown and Layfayette are the two Ford dealerships here.

Both bad places to do business, IMHO.

TR

TR Sir,

Since first reading this thread a while back, my mind wondered if these places did NOT know that if you attempt to provide bad customer service to SF Men, the word IS going to get out and about?:confused:

Of all people, U.S. Service Men & Women are the ones they should be twisting around backwards to help...to put it politely.:mad:

Some how, am guessing these Stealerships just don't get it! GRRRRRRR.

Here is an idea... I want my tax dollars to go into a fund, like SS. Except this fund is for Military personel to purchase a vehicle for themselves, or their families. Any vehicle, at NO cost to them! The least we American citizens could do, IMHO.
Holly

zuluzerosix

05-11-2009, 12:51

zuluzerosix

07-04-2009, 13:32

Ok....Just did the fist cars for clunkers. Yep, as expected it is a Cluster-Chuck.

The dealers are fronting the cash. Then getting a rebate from the Gov. We all knew that would happen. Here's the problem, there is no real way to accurately account for the program on the sales contract or on our own accounting systems.

Here are supporting websites, and Ford Motor Company is providing support on their website as well.

www.cars.gov

http://www.cars.gov/files/day-one.pdf

www.ford.com (click on "Let Ford Recycle)

The information on the $4500 or $3500 government rebate is set in stone, but for trucks it is very confusing. There will be the final word on trucks around the 24th of July.

Trip_Wire (RIP)

07-06-2009, 20:44

I have of course over the years had 4 Fords, 1 Plymouths, 2 Porsche, 2 Audi, 2 Volkswagen and 3 Jeep Cherokees. Now I have two Lexus's a sedan (2006 GS AWD 300 & a 2010 RX 350 Suv.) We have had a Lexus Suv since 2003.

Of all the past cars their Companies and dealers I have had in the past none beat the service I get at my local Lexus dealer. We both actually enjoy going in for maintenance. If the service takes time they always offer a loaner. They have free soft drinks, milk, and one of those coffee machines that make all kinds of hot stuff.

I just can't say enough good things about their cars and the service! :lifter

armymom1228

07-06-2009, 23:15

One more thing thing, then I will give this block a rest until next time. The FTC has implemented Red Flags Rules. Car Dealers must comply with this. It is causing abit a havoc among car dealers-for some reason. They are fighting a battle they can't win. Our policy is already in place.

Red Flags Rules:

http://www2.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/alerts/alt050.shtm

Guide:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/idtheft/bus23.pdf

This is some good info, because it doesn't just apply to Stealerships. It is good to know what business are responsible for when it comes to identity theft.

Yeah well...I paid CASH for my 2006 Mercury Milan in June 2009... did you read the word CASH... and I still had to prove who I was because I use a mail forwarding service for my address. There are NO flags on my name at the credit bureau. I had to answer some dumb questions.. "have you ever worked at any of these places?" "Have you ever lived on any of these streets.." I mean it was both lame and an insult. I made a point of asking the dude in the office IF I refuse to answer the questions will you still sell me this car I am paying cash for? He hemmed and hawed.. I came within a heartbeat of walking.. had the sales manager not been my son's best friends dad. I probaby would have.. however any place I go this is the new invasion of my privacy..
The guys asked for ID in addition to my drivers license.. I gave him my passport.. that alone should have proven who I was.. I swear, next thing they will want to know which hand I wipe with and the names of all my ex's.. geez..

Mercury ran like a bat out of hel all the way north.. 80-85 the whole way.. once I hit I-95. Hit the Pentagon on 395 at 7pm, thru DC and under the city out New York Ave and it was 7:35pm when I turned on the BW Parkway.. don't think I Have ever made ALL the lights like that. It was super. Nope, did not speed in DC, they get all upset and stop me for that sort of thing.. besides I have a radar detector.

Flew home to Florida to buy a car... I had had several pointed discussions with the salesman at Crystal Chevrolet. WE, my kids and all had already purchased three cars thru them or their Nissan dealership.. 2 cobalts and my son bought his Altima with them.. this would have been a 4th vehicle.. I told the salesman how much I wanted to spend out the door. He starts showing me cars. I settle on a Malibu.. not thrilled with it, but considering I Had like 4 days to do this and get home to Maryland.. I was going to just suck it up and live with the deal. Then I get to the money part.. suddenly my xxx out the door has jumped by a good 2500 and that was unacceptable. So I am in the little glassed in room talking to the salesman and my mom, who puts warren buffet to shame when it comes to money managing.. she has made me a wealthy woman playing the stock market with my money.. she is 90 btw, has all her own marbles land a few of the neighbors as well, she is about as helpless as a piranha, thought she likes to play the helpless old lady.. yeah sure.. not to mention the arsenal and ammo stockpile she has would make TS's heart flutter geez... well anyway.. the salesman, Gary and I and mom who was listening on my bluetooth headset were all talking about what we could work out..when the used car manager comes in and plays the vulture intimidation game..He was around six three, beer belly, white shirt and tie.. he stands over me, I was sitting. Says in a nasty tone of voice.. "well you were looking at cars you cannot afford why don't you just go home and come back when you have some real money" I just looked at him like he had grown a third eye.. mom who heard him.. said in m ear, "honey, we can do better than this jerk, you just come on home now you hear"... snickers.. I looked at both guys, dropped into a deep southern drawl like a 12 yr old and said, "my momma says I gotta come home raht now......" I looked from one jerk to another for effect, "will one of you guys give me a ride back to the house please?" That was southern belle speak for "well buckwheat you just lost a deal."..

I got home, called over to Gulf Coast Ford and spoke with Jim Preston. His son and mine are brothers born of two mothers, is the way they tell it.. Jim said, "I will send one of my boys to get you and lets look as what we can do for you."
Salesman drives up in this sage green Milan.. ten feet out of the driveway I knew that was the right car. Jim knew what my price was, out the door.. when I got to the dealership he told me that since the car had sat on the lot for an extra week he could take a grand off the price and was going to give me a 'military discount' of $500 since my son was deployed. I think in the end I got out of there for about $800 below my max..

OTOH, a month since i bought it one window switch is semi functioning and i am going to shoot the seat belt alarm if it does not acknowledge I am tied up and bound firmly in place in the drivers seat.. sheesh.. ding, ding, ding..I can hear it over the the Rolling Stones..

Speaking of vehicles... back in 1975 I bought a 3/4 ton manual shift 4x4 jeep pickup.. there were two identical on the lot, I chose the blue one. My husbands work buddy bought the white one.. My truck never saw a dealer or a mechanic, either him or me did the oil changes and any very minor stuff it needed.. I rebuilt the engine at 200k it is still a working vehicle on the ranch I sold in 1984. The white jeep spent most of its life in and out of the dealer and various mechanics..it was a lemon from the day that guy bought it.. luck of the draw I guess.

Back in 1983 my son's dad bought me a 240D Benz.. paid cash for that car too. It was like the energizer bunny. It just ran and ran.. great car.. last yr they made a manual shift. Was expensive if anything went wrong though.. new transmission cost me $6K... had that car from '82 till I came up to DC in 2005.. I was told that my car was unstealable.. mmm, tell that to the dipshit who appropriated it without my permission.. man I miss that car.. pale yellow comfortable to drive and good on fuel.. I could go from Tampa to Key West on one tank of gas. Coming back, going uphill, I could almost get back to tampa.. about 20 miles from my house.. great car.. In fact I came within a heartbeat of looking at mid 80-early 90's 360D's.. but got talked out of it by my kids.

VVVV

07-07-2009, 10:01

Of all people, U.S. Service Men & Women are the ones they should be twisting around backwards to help...to put it politely.:mad:

Why should they be treated any different than other customers?

Here is an idea... I want my tax dollars to go into a fund, like SS. Except this fund is for Military personel to purchase a vehicle for themselves, or their families. Any vehicle, at NO cost to them! The least we American citizens could do, IMHO.
Holly

And then what...a fund so they can purchase a house, any house at no cost to them?

echoes

07-07-2009, 12:04

Why should they be treated any different than other customers?
And then what...a fund so they can purchase a house, any house at no cost to them?

My sincerest appologies Sir, if my post was of any offense. Sometimes I can get carried away with my patriotism, having never served one day in uniform.

All I can do is say thank you, to you that have.

Holly

VVVV

07-07-2009, 15:17

I am sorry that the corporate leadership, unions, and greedy dealers have managed to wreck what was formerly a quality, world-leading US industry.

When was it that the GM, Ford, Chrysler, or American Motors produced those quality automobiles?

I've been a licensed driver for more than 50 years, my first car was a nine year old 1951 Ford, and I spent more than 35 years in the automotive field (service, parts manufacturing and distribution, and as a manufactures representative) and I can't recall a period where American automobile manufacturers produced better, more reliable vehicles than they do today.

The Reaper

07-07-2009, 15:43

When was it that the GM, Ford, Chrysler, or American Motors produced those quality automobiles?

I've been a licensed driver for more than 50 years, my first car was a nine year old 1951 Ford, and I spent more than 35 years in the automotive field (service, parts manufacturing and distribution, and as a manufactures representative) and I can't recall a period where American automobile manufacturers produced better, more reliable vehicles than they do today.

Sure they do.

But in the 50s and 60s, they produced much better cars than the alternative foreign manufacturers. The first cars I remember were my Dad's '52 Ford, my Grandfather's '49 Chevy, and my other Grandfather's '48 Plymouth. Dad upgraded to a '59 Ford, then a progression of Fords and GMs every four years or so. His last vehicle was a '62 GMC pick-up.

By the 70s, that was changing, and the American QC got progressively worse, as the foreign makers, particularly the Japanese, made the cars people wanted and made them better, in both design and quality. The impression that the Big Three projected was that we know what you need and want better than you do. Check the Consumer Reports, JD Powers, and other quality satisfaction surveys. The U.S. auto makers got an import tax levied on imports, ostensibly to allow them to undercut foreign pricing while they converted to build fuel efficient vehicles, then almost immediately raised their own prices by a matching amount.

In the 80s and 90s, they were consistently building poor quality cars of limited utility. They alienated an entire generation.

They have improved since then, and have closed the gap a bit with the foreign manufacturers (especially as the foreign companies built factories here in the US), but based on previous treatment (and the fact that there is still a gap), many of us will never buy a Big Three car again.

They may make a car that will last 100,000 miles relatively trouble free, rather than the 60,000 they used to last, but the Japanese make cars that will run 200,000 miles or more without anything other than routine maintenance. I had an uncle who put 450,000 miles on a 80s era Honda wagon over 15 years before letting his son have the car. I sold our Dodge Intrepid with 206,000 miles on it, and it was a wreck, after having body integrity, cooling, HVAC, steering, transmission, and engine issues. We spent several thousand on unscheduled repairs for it. We are at 175,000 miles on a Honda minivan with no significant issues. The last Ford Explorer I had started breaking down at 15,000 miles. I have a Dodge Ram in the driveway right now which started giving me engine troubles at 19,000 miles. It was in the dealer's service department at least eight times for the same problem under warranty. The dealer acknowledged the problem, but refused to fix it, and the regional service rep told me to live with it. If I take my Acura in with any complaint, however minor, they fix it right then, treat me right, and charge nothing. If it going to take more than an hour, they will usually offer me a loaner.

If you read the entire thread, you will see my negative experiences with the dealerships, management, build quality, warranty service, etc. I will maintain that poor products, bad designs, exorbitant labor costs, uncaring tenured workers, a bloated dealer network, and questionable business practices have ruined the US auto industry. I have been driving since the early 70s, in 60s cars, and have owned U.S. (all of major makes), British, German, and Japanese cars.

You fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I gave Detroit many chances, they screwed me, repeatedly, and laughed in my face about it. Never again.

Hope that explains my comments. Your mileage may vary.

TR

armymom1228

07-07-2009, 16:26

echoes

07-07-2009, 16:46

Any
Holly our service members are Citizens just like you and me... If you want to see something done for them and our Vets...lobby Congress them the pay raise they deserve.. pay them what they are worth.. which is considerably more than they make, most of them, now.. My son, a single guy, told me that after he takes what deductions he is entitled to, he is eligible for food stamps.. now add a family in there.. that suxs in my book...

Our Vets... no free houses, but force the VA to do its job.. to put service connected problems first in line.. instead the back or somewhere in the middle.. you want to do something for our guys... become a Vets Advocate.. take the time to educate yourself about the issues then advocate for a Vet needing medical care in a VA who is stymied by the system..

Hijack over...back to Stealerships...
AM

Ma'am,

Please tell your son thank you for his service.

In any case, I still believe that Our United States Veterans should not have to pay for a car, a house, or anything. I am just twisted that way...and though my dearly departed Uncle, an Army WWII veteran would not like me saying so, I will not be swayed...

But rest assured Armymom, I DO take Our Vets causes seriously! If I didn't, I would not have stuck around on this board for so long, for I love Our Vets, Ma'am, am I am sure you do.

Holly

sg1987

07-07-2009, 19:51

I have had three Fords…presently drive and an F-150. I’m beginning to think that an illuminated “service engine light” comes standard.:mad:

GratefulCitizen

07-07-2009, 20:53

Sure they do.

But in the 50s and 60s, they produced much better cars than the alternative foreign manufacturers. The first cars I remember were my Dad's '52 Ford, my Grandfather's '49 Chevy, and my other Grandfather's '48 Plymouth. Dad upgraded to a '59 Ford, then a progression of Fords and GMs every four years or so. His last vehicle was a '62 GMC pick-up.

By the 70s, that was changing, and the American QC got progressively worse, as the foreign makers, particularly the Japanese, made the cars people wanted and made them better, in both design and quality. The impression that the Big Three projected was that we know what you need and want better than you do. Check the Consumer Reports, JD Powers, and other quality satisfaction surveys. The U.S. auto makers got an import tax levied on imports, ostensibly to allow them to undercut foreign pricing while they converted to build fuel efficient vehicles, then almost immediately raised their own prices by a matching amount.

In the 80s and 90s, they were consistently building poor quality cars of limited utility. They alienated an entire generation.

They have improved since then, and have closed the gap a bit with the foreign manufacturers (especially as the foreign companies built factories here in the US), but based on previous treatment (and the fact that there is still a gap), many of us will never buy a Big Three car again.

They may make a car that will last 100,000 miles relatively trouble free, rather than the 60,000 they used to last, but the Japanese make cars that will run 200,000 miles or more without anything other than routine maintenance. I had an uncle who put 450,000 miles on a 80s era Honda wagon over 15 years before letting his son have the car. I sold our Dodge Intrepid with 206,000 miles on it, and it was a wreck, after having body integrity, cooling, HVAC, steering, transmission, and engine issues. We spent several thousand on unscheduled repairs for it. We are at 175,000 miles on a Honda minivan with no significant issues. The last Ford Explorer I had started breaking down at 15,000 miles. I have a Dodge Ram in the driveway right now which started giving me engine troubles at 19,000 miles. It was in the dealer's service department at least eight times for the same problem under warranty. The dealer acknowledged the problem, but refused to fix it, and the regional service rep told me to live with it. If I take my Acura in with any complaint, however minor, they fix it right then, treat me right, and charge nothing. If it going to take more than an hour, they will usually offer me a loaner.

If you read the entire thread, you will see my negative experiences with the dealerships, management, build quality, warranty service, etc. I will maintain that poor products, bad designs, exorbitant labor costs, uncaring tenured workers, a bloated dealer network, and questionable business practices have ruined the US auto industry. I have been driving since the early 70s, in 60s cars, and have owned U.S. (all of major makes), British, German, and Japanese cars.

You fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I gave Detroit many chances, they screwed me, repeatedly, and laughed in my face about it. Never again.

Hope that explains my comments. Your mileage may vary.

TR

Two words: planned obsolescence.
The big three needed turnover in the vehicle fleet to support big union contracts.

I still think the push to ban r12 (freon) was partially about cars.
Not only was Dupont's patent expiring (with r-134 waiting in the wings), but you wouldn't be able to recharge your car's A/C.
For certain areas of the country, an otherwise functional car without A/C is junk.

Complex emissions systems + smog standards turn many otherwise functional vehicles into junk (usually just a little while after the warranty expires...).

If your heads didn't have hardened valve seats, you were in trouble when leaded gasoline was phased out.
Studies concerned with lead pollution were touted, but the incompatibility between catalytic converters and tetraethyl lead was the driver for unleaded gasoline.
(I wonder if there was something else that might have worked...)

Propane/CNG conversions are simple, they can be cheap, produce far fewer emissions, and greatly prolong engine life.
Anyone ever seen all of the red tape necessary for a conversion on a modern car in Arizona?
Propane and dual-fuel weren't uncommon in the 60's (commercial) and 70's.
What happened?
(Oh yeah...we decided it was wiser to burn food.)

Next it will be "your car makes too much CO2, it is now banned -- the new GM model is compliant and/or has an exemption".

DDT, freon, emissions standards, peak oil (sorry nmap), greenhouse gasses...the truth don't matter.
Follow the money.

zuluzerosix

07-08-2009, 17:18

Any product and any company is as only good as the customer support that backs it.

When a customer service rep takes the time to really listen and a mechanic the time to really try to fix the issue, not parts swap... when they offer you a loaner car... that goes a gianormous way to customer satisfaction.

If American manufacturers held their dealers to the standards that Lexus and Benz dealers are held to.... then we might see more Americans buy American cars..

Holly our service members are Citizens just like you and me... If you want to see something done for them and our Vets...lobby Congress them the pay raise they deserve.. pay them what they are worth.. which is considerably more than they make, most of them, now.. My son, a single guy, told me that after he takes what deductions he is entitled to, he is eligible for food stamps.. now add a family in there.. that suxs in my book...

Our Vets... no free houses, but force the VA to do its job.. to put service connected problems first in line.. instead the back or somewhere in the middle.. you want to do something for our guys... become a Vets Advocate.. take the time to educate yourself about the issues then advocate for a Vet needing medical care in a VA who is stymied by the system..
Hijack over...back to Stealerships...
AM

Echoes, not to hijack this any further, But I recently purchased a home using a VA loan. It went off with out a hitch. The only problem I had was finding a home in my community that could meet the VA standard for pest inspection. Had I been purchasing a new home this would not had been an an issue. Thge process was smooth and easy with little paperwork when considering the amount I thought I was going to have.

When I redeployed home form Desert Storm, I was a"pay hurt" just like everybody else. I had to make a quick jump, we did and I managed to break my back. I am 60% service connected. I have never really had a bad time with the VA. They are very nice and although they see quite a few people I never feel like a number there.

I just wanted to relate one VA sucess story.

echoes

07-08-2009, 17:24

Echoes, not to hijack this any further, But I recently purchased a home using a VA loan. It went off with out a hitch. The only problem I had was finding a home in my community that could meet the VA standard for pest inspection. Had I been purchasing a new home this would not had been an an issue. Thge process was smooth and easy with little paperwork when considering the amount I thought I was going to have.

When I redeployed home form Desert Storm, I was a"pay hurt" just like everybody else. I had to make a quick jump, we did and I managed to break my back. I am 60% service connected. I have never really had a bad time with the VA. They are very nice and although they see quite a few people I never feel like a number there.

I just wanted to relate one VA sucess story.

Z6,

Taken to PM, sir. Thank you.

Holly

zuluzerosix

07-08-2009, 17:59

Sure they do.

But in the 50s and 60s, they produced much better cars than the alternative foreign manufacturers. The first cars I remember were my Dad's '52 Ford, my Grandfather's '49 Chevy, and my other Grandfather's '48 Plymouth. Dad upgraded to a '59 Ford, then a progression of Fords and GMs every four years or so. His last vehicle was a '62 GMC pick-up.

By the 70s, that was changing, and the American QC got progressively worse, as the foreign makers, particularly the Japanese, made the cars people wanted and made them better, in both design and quality. The impression that the Big Three projected was that we know what you need and want better than you do. Check the Consumer Reports, JD Powers, and other quality satisfaction surveys. The U.S. auto makers got an import tax levied on imports, ostensibly to allow them to undercut foreign pricing while they converted to build fuel efficient vehicles, then almost immediately raised their own prices by a matching amount.

In the 80s and 90s, they were consistently building poor quality cars of limited utility. They alienated an entire generation.

They have improved since then, and have closed the gap a bit with the foreign manufacturers (especially as the foreign companies built factories here in the US), but based on previous treatment (and the fact that there is still a gap), many of us will never buy a Big Three car again.

They may make a car that will last 100,000 miles relatively trouble free, rather than the 60,000 they used to last, but the Japanese make cars that will run 200,000 miles or more without anything other than routine maintenance. I had an uncle who put 450,000 miles on a 80s era Honda wagon over 15 years before letting his son have the car. I sold our Dodge Intrepid with 206,000 miles on it, and it was a wreck, after having body integrity, cooling, HVAC, steering, transmission, and engine issues. We spent several thousand on unscheduled repairs for it. We are at 175,000 miles on a Honda minivan with no significant issues. The last Ford Explorer I had started breaking down at 15,000 miles. I have a Dodge Ram in the driveway right now which started giving me engine troubles at 19,000 miles. It was in the dealer's service department at least eight times for the same problem under warranty. The dealer acknowledged the problem, but refused to fix it, and the regional service rep told me to live with it. If I take my Acura in with any complaint, however minor, they fix it right then, treat me right, and charge nothing. If it going to take more than an hour, they will usually offer me a loaner.

If you read the entire thread, you will see my negative experiences with the dealerships, management, build quality, warranty service, etc. I will maintain that poor products, bad designs, exorbitant labor costs, uncaring tenured workers, a bloated dealer network, and questionable business practices have ruined the US auto industry. I have been driving since the early 70s, in 60s cars, and have owned U.S. (all of major makes), British, German, and Japanese cars.

You fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I gave Detroit many chances, they screwed me, repeatedly, and laughed in my face about it. Never again.

Hope that explains my comments. Your mileage may vary.

TR

We can argue this point all day, but if TR was off, even just a little bit-so many Americans would not share his point of view.

Ford Motor Company openly admits to quality problems with their cars and suv's. We came come along way recently in terms of quality. But how does that matter to someone who has spent many thousands of dollars on a product that reapeatedly breaks with little or no support from the product manufacturer or seller?

Remember, Ford admitted that the Ford Taurus in the the mid-80's actually saved the company.

All Ford can do as a company is build quality products, improve the quality of its dealers and try and win those folks back. Some folks will never return.

There are many, many sucess stories. Ford has loyal buyers. But Lexus Dealers for an example have focused on creating customers for life. They have been sucessful at it. While American dealers only sell what they can see and move on to the next customer. It's all about today, today and today. When it should really be about establishing relationships and building on them.

One's position as a sales rep gets his foot in the door with customer. How he conducts himself will determine his sucess. The same rule applies to the service dept.

I try and teach my sales force to focus on the service, lay the ground work for life long customers. Service, service Service. One of the things that we do is have the salesperson meet his customer everytime they come in for an oil change and see how things are going, make them feel welcome etc....

And some still don't get it. We still have a long way to go. But as much as I want to argue against TR's point, I think he is right.

Gypsy

07-08-2009, 20:05

I try and teach my sales force to focus on the service, lay the ground work for life long customers. Service, service Service.

As a consumer I can't tell you how far this goes with me, and pretty much every one I know.

And as a sales professional for the past gazillion years (feeling old after another birthday :p ) in many different industries, to include headhunting, that is how I positioned my product. Everyone has <insert your product/service here, your competitor has the same stuff> it's all about the individual service you provide to your customer.

Team Sergeant

07-08-2009, 20:18

You fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I gave Detroit many chances, they screwed me, repeatedly, and laughed in my face about it. Never again.

Hope that explains my comments. Your mileage may vary.

TR

I'm with you.

After the UAW's influence with the last election I can tell you now, I've purchased my last "American" made car, or should I say "union" car.

It burns my ass to be forced to pay taxes to bail out a private company or the socialist unions that destroyed it.

Never again.

Maybe Wal-Mart will start making cars!

Team Sergeant

armymom1228

07-08-2009, 21:13

TS,
When Sam Walton was still alive, he touted that all products in Wally World were American made...see how many you find now..

Team Sergeant

07-09-2009, 10:18

TS,
When Sam Walton was still alive, he touted that all products in Wally World were American made...see how many you find now..

I shop ther almost every day and I see thousands of American products such as, Winchester, Federal, Plano, Mossburg, Remington, Hunter Specialities, Browning, Bear, Mossy Oak, Leatherman, Real Tree,Thompson Center Arms, Kleen Bore etc etc etc etc etc etc

"You sure you want to ride this train?" (Hancock, that movie cracks me up every time I watch it.)

Don't get me started.

Again, I will never purchase another, left wing, socialist, United Auto Worker made vehicle.

Team Sergeant

Richard

07-09-2009, 11:07

We've got two black Trail Blazers (2007 w/7k mi and 2003 w/63k mi) and a patriot blue Sebring convertible (2000 w/53k mi) - all are paid for and we've have had no troubles with any of them. ;)

But I wish I had my '62 Vette back. :lifter

Richard's $.02 :munchin

ZonieDiver

07-09-2009, 12:30

I'm with TS and The Reaper! (Do I know how to pick sides, or what?) My last "US made" vehicle was an '89 GMC 3500 one ton pickup - used mainly to tow a large boat. I got it serviced at a Cadillac/GM dealership and had good luck with repairs and customer service. I cannot say the same for the Dodge's that came before it, or the Ford in the early 80's.

My current vehicle is a KIA, built by our S. Korean allies! It is a 2006 Sportage, which replaced a '97 Sportage (traded in with 140,000 miles). Not a lick of trouble from either, great service, great follow-up, fantastic customer service, and... a great price and warranty.

And now, KIA is opening a US plant in West Point, GA!

armymom1228

07-09-2009, 16:38

I shop ther almost every day and I see thousands of American products such as, Winchester, Federal, Plano, Mossburg, Remington, Hunter Specialities, Browning, Bear, Mossy Oak, Leatherman, Real Tree,Thompson Center Arms, Kleen Bore etc etc etc etc etc etc

"You sure you want to ride this train?" (Hancock, that movie cracks me up every time I watch it.)

Don't get me started.

Again, I will never purchase another, left wing, socialist, United Auto Worker made vehicle.

Team Sergeant

Don't blame you about the car. I always thought that the UAW was stupid for not taking a cut in pay to keep a job. If I can take a ten dollar and hour cut to keep money coming in.. why cannot they? Something is better than nothing.

Sam said he would never allow foriegn made goods in his store. After his death.. look at the clothing labels.. am wearing a top made in VietNam and shorts sewn in Nicarauga from Wally World... guns... well, in Baltimore City/County NO gun sales period.. Have to go down to Anne Arundel.. and for me back to Floridaze to get anything since my DL is from there..

zuluzerosix

08-17-2010, 16:07

What is SAE?

You see it everywhere in the automotive industry. SAE 40 motor oil, SAE certified parts, brake fuid, transmission fluid etc....

The Society of Automobile Engineers began in 1905.

SAE is a non-profit educational and scientific organization dedicated to advancing mobility technology to better serve humanity. Over 90,000 engineers and scientists, who are SAE members, develop technical information on all forms of self-propelled vehicles including automobiles, trucks and buses, off-highway equipment, aircraft, aerospace vehicles, marine, rail, and transit systems. SAE disseminates this information through its meetings, books, technical papers, magazines, standards, reports, professional development programs, and electronic databases.

History (http://www.sae.org/about/general/history/)

Website Home (http://www.sae.org/)

VVVV

08-17-2010, 20:54

What is SAE?

You see it everywhere in the automotive industry. SAE 40 motor oil, SAE certified parts, SAE certified mechanics, brake fuid, transmission fluid etc....

The Society of Automobile Engineers began in 1905.

SAE is a non-profit educational and scientific organization dedicated to advancing mobility technology to better serve humanity. Over 90,000 engineers and scientists, who are SAE members, develop technical information on all forms of self-propelled vehicles including automobiles, trucks and buses, off-highway equipment, aircraft, aerospace vehicles, marine, rail, and transit systems. SAE disseminates this information through its meetings, books, technical papers, magazines, standards, reports, professional development programs, and electronic databases.

History[As/URL]
[URL="http://www.sae.org/"]
Website Home (http://www.sae.org/about/general/history/)

I'm a former member of the SAE, and to my knowledge the SAE has never certified mechanics. The the certification you are thinking of is ASE / the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence .

http://www.ase.com/

zuluzerosix

08-19-2010, 10:16

I'm a former member of the SAE, and to my knowledge the SAE has never certified mechanics. The the certification you are thinking of is ASE / the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence .

http://www.ase.com/

Yes, you are right, my mistake.

wet dog

12-29-2010, 20:54

http://jalopnik.com/391696/1961-ferrari-250-gt-california-sells-for-10976000-setting-world-record-as-most-expensive-car-ever

uplink5

12-29-2010, 21:19

That's nuts, more power to you if you can but, just nuts....:eek:

Masochist

12-31-2010, 12:22

EVERYTHING

Sadly I have to fall in with the "never again" Ford crowd. I have driven numerous Fords (Bronco, Escort, Taurus, Explorer), as I grew up in a Ford family and followed their lead once I became of driving age.

Why I'll Never Buy Ford Again

Fast-forward to just after my first mobilization. As a single E-4, I purchased a new Explorer in cash to replace my '89 Cadillac (it was almost 13 years old). Right off the bat, the dealer did everything humanly possible to get me to sign for a loan. "Are you SURE you want to put down that much cash?" :rolleyes:

As I was returning to college after coming off active duty, I didn't yet know of a reputable mechanic in the area. I make it a habit of finding someone local who I can get to know personally and develop a report with for servicing I don't do on my own, as I've had way too many dealership issues. One morning I took my year-old Explorer into the local Ford dealership for new break pads; they said it would be a few hours and they would call when it was finished. I finally received a call right before COB saying the work was done and my bill was ~$900. Apparently they decided to replace the break pads, rotors and do some other work they said was "necessary" even though my truck was only a year old. Long story short, after speaking with the manager and looking at the original request for work, I only had to pay for the brake pads and service as I never authorized the additional work.

A few years later while driving home from drill, my transmission dies approximately 45 mins from the armory (and two hours from home). It had less than 85,000 miles on it at this point and was the first issue I had outside of regular fluid and break pad changes and scheduled maintenance. After researching my model and confirming with the dealer, it seems Ford switched to an "improved" transmission that year and it was notorious for failing early (yet not considered recall-worthy :mad:). I read of the same transmission failing as early as 24K for some people. To top things off, I was just outside of the warranty and had to pay $2800 for a rebuilt transmission.

And since I can't leave on a sour note during the holiday season:

My Positive Ford Story

I was home for the holidays, and Murphy decided to come with me for the ride. In the week before Christmas the rear passenger-side motor for my window failed (leaving the window down in single-digit weather) and the door ajar light/tones would go off randomly while driving. I took it to the local dealership at the recommendation of family. The service manager put a rush on ordering a new window motor (for this model there are different motors for front and rear windows - he only had the front) and replaced a faulty door sensor that day. The following afternoon both issues were taken care of with a reasonable bill in time to continue visiting with the family.

A few days later the door chimes/light started coming on again. I contacted the dealership and they asked if I could bring it in that day (even though it was right before Christmas). They replaced and lubed all seals on the doors, as the expansion/contraction of the old seals were causing the issue, all for no charge.

Turns out the service manager is a VN vet with a Bronze Star (w/ V) and two Purple Hearts. One of the most humble and generous guys I've been fortunate to meet.

GratefulCitizen

12-31-2010, 12:56

wet dog

12-31-2010, 13:09

I like all old cars and trucks.

The newest truck I have is a 2000 F350 7.3L Diesel, 450,000+ miles.

I replaced the transmssion two years ago at 300,000 miles not because it was failing, but because I needed more drive torque to pull bigger trailers with heavier equipment. The engine remains strong. I'm soon going to pull the bedbox off and build a new flat bed with tool boxes. I'll retire it to the farm, but allow my oldest to drive it to school in a few years. I'd like to buy a new truck, but can't seem to swallow the $30K or higher price tag.

The '67 International has a well running 304, V8, but I'm going to put a 392 Mopar in it this summer. The 75 Torino has a 351 Motified V8, 111,000 miles.

I have a 2000 Dodge Intrepid, 7000 miles, bad motor. I have another Dodge, 2004, good motor, but a totaled car, got it for $100. I'll sell both for $1500 or trade. The one motor will work in the other car. Plan on spending a $1000 to move the motor.

I'm not the best mechanic, but have friends that are.

Whose taking bets these vehicles are still on the road well after the 2010 Prius finds the nearest scrapper/recyle center?

wet dog

12-31-2010, 13:18

Won't waste my money on a new car.

Depreciation is expensive.
Registration is expensive.
If you finance it, insurance is expensive.
New cars still break down and still can get damaged/vandalized/stolen.

Found a '77 Mercedes 240D to use as a daily driver.
Cost about ~$1500 total for purchase/new tires/initial repairs and maintenance.

Tags and insurance are minimal, maintenance is trivial, and they only last for around 1 million miles or so (seriously).
Gets about 25-30 mpg in town, and can run on vegetable oil or used hydraulic fluid.

I just rent a new car for long out-of-town trips.

GC - good on you!

The carbon footprint cost of the older car has been accounted for and paid long ago. The new hybrid is still costly to the environment, metals, lead, painting, fabricating, etc. Who says they are better? Obama?

The 77 Mercedes will still be on the road twenty years from now.

I've got a friend who restores old Volvos, be bought one for $100, drove it 500,000 miles over a period of 15 years. Sold it to a young kid for $100, got his money back.

Penn

01-01-2011, 00:39

not a motor head, but I have bought Ford products for years. Recently, decided to put a new engine via motorworks $4700 - in a 1990 explorer with 235000+ miles.

For me the math was new 350 per/mo + full comp ins @ 250 per/month. or base cost 600 per/mo; crazy money, so I opted for spreading 5K over 3yr with 100K warranty.
The rig when into the shop with 235K miles, thanks to PM and oil changed every 3.5 k miles.

GratefulCitizen

01-03-2011, 20:28

I like all old cars and trucks.

The newest truck I have is a 2000 F350 7.3L Diesel, 450,000+ miles.

I replaced the transmssion two years ago at 300,000 miles not because it was failing, but because I needed more drive torque to pull bigger trailers with heavier equipment. The engine remains strong. I'm soon going to pull the bedbox off and build a new flat bed with tool boxes. I'll retire it to the farm, but allow my oldest to drive it to school in a few years. I'd like to buy a new truck, but can't seem to swallow the $30K or higher price tag.

Found an '88 Ford 3/4 ton short-tail van, in good condition, for $1000.
The engine is a port-fuel injected 460 and only had 40k miles on it.

C6 tranny, Dana 60 rear end, 10,000lb hitch, trailer brake system, near-new bench seats, roof rack/ladder, etc.
Lotsa smokin' deals here in nothern Ariz/southern Utah.

**************
**************
IMO, big engines are good for the environment.
Everything else being equal, the big engine will last much longer.

How much energy does it take to manufacture a new vehicle?
How many vehicles are junked once the engine is done?

It's simple physics.
Engines with lower power-to-displacement ratios receive less stress on their parts.

One of the best engines ever made was the 500 Caddy.
Most of them are still around, just in different vehicles.

Big engines with higher power-to-displacement ratios rarely make full power, lowering the ratio in practice.
CAFE standards just result in faster vehicle turnover.

For nearly 40 years (with some exceptions) the game has been planned obsolescence.

uplink5

01-03-2011, 21:50

I like all old cars and trucks.

The newest truck I have is a 2000 F350 7.3L Diesel, 450,000+ miles.

I replaced the transmssion two years ago at 300,000 miles not because it was failing, but because I needed more drive torque to pull bigger trailers with heavier equipment. The engine remains strong. I'm soon going to pull the bedbox off and build a new flat bed with tool boxes. I'll retire it to the farm, but allow my oldest to drive it to school in a few years. I'd like to buy a new truck, but can't seem to swallow the $30K or higher price tag.

I was in the market for a 7.3L F-350 but will have to wait for now. That's a great motor and there easy to find on ebay if you don't mind traveling. I'm waiting to see if the new 6.7 L will be a bomb, or The Bomb. I may also go with a 3500 RAM Cummings Diesel but will have to wait till I'm in the market before making my final decision.

I'm still driving my 98 RAM Sport which came with a 318 that I replaced a year ago with a 360ci. It makes quite a differece pulling the boat but still gets lousy mileage doing so. Next truck will be diesel.......

I won't buy a brand new truck or car, period. A couple years of age on a well serviced and documanted vehicle, and good consumer reports is fine with me. Beats the hell out of the big money sticker prices. I do like the older vehicles but my goal is to buy the last truck I'll ever need, one that will pull my boat and a decent camper.....jd

wet dog

01-03-2011, 23:50

I was in the market for a 7.3L F-350 but will have to wait for now. That's a great motor and there easy to find on ebay if you don't mind traveling. I'm waiting to see if the new 6.7 L will be a bomb, or The Bomb. I may also go with a 3500 RAM Cummings Diesel but will have to wait till I'm in the market before making my final decision.

I'm still driving my 98 RAM Sport which came with a 318 that I replaced a year ago with a 360ci. It makes quite a differece pulling the boat but still gets lousy mileage doing so. Next truck will be diesel.......

I won't buy a brand new truck or car, period. A couple years of age on a well serviced and documanted vehicle, and good consumer reports is fine with me. Beats the hell out of the big money sticker prices. I do like the older vehicles but my goal is to buy the last truck I'll ever need, one that will pull my boat and a decent camper.....jd

If you're given the option to buy a 6.7L Diesel motor or jump off a cliff, take the cliff, it will be less painful.

The Dodge motor is great, but up against the transmission Dodge chose is poor engineering. The motor is fine, but the transmission can't take the torque.

Never dismiss a gas motor.

Let me explain, fuel will always be available, explosive fuel that is. Diesel is nothing more then pent up energy wanting to be released, oil will always be avail too.

If a comparision was to be made is would be this.

Consider two trucks identical to each other, make, model, year, etc., but one is diesel and the other gas.

The diesel truck will cost $6000 more. While fuel costs are different, total costs remain the same. You simply take more from the fuel budget over a period of 60 months, or five years. Get it?

When I was in HS, we moved heavy equipment and livestock back and forth between California winter pastures and Wyoming summer grazing. We had (4) trucks moving 1000 head of cattle non-stop twice a year. The fuel cost was insignificant compared to the cost of feed.

We spent aprox, $1000 per truck per week, ($4000 a week in fuel), kind of steep right? We also never changed oil, unless it was necessary. Changing motor oil in a diesel truck was a primary discussion between my grandfather, uncles and myself. We would draw from the vehicle one pint sample, send it off to a lab to have the oil analyzed, then wait for a report that read, "you are good for another 10,000 miles".

Scheduled maint., became a cost center, budget reduction usually ended in me taking a paycut. Usually resulting in me going from canned tuna fish to sharing a can of wet dog food with "Blue", Rusty" or "Banjo", three Dingo blue healers, who by the way were worth more than any damn cow we moved.

Sorry for the rant, never buy a 6.7L diesel motor.

uplink5

01-04-2011, 01:32

If you're given the option to buy a 6.7L Diesel motor or jump off a cliff, take the cliff, it will be less painful.

The Dodge motor is great, but up against the transmission Dodge chose is poor engineering. The motor is fine, but the transmission can't take the torque.

Never dismiss a gas motor.

Let me explain, fuel will always be available, explosive fuel that is. Diesel is nothing more then pent up energy wanting to be released, oil will always be avail too.

If a comparision was to be made is would be this.

Consider two trucks identical to each other, make, model, year, etc., but one is diesel and the other gas.

The diesel truck will cost $6000 more. While fuel costs are different, total costs remain the same. You simply take more from the fuel budget over a period of 60 months, or five years. Get it?

When I was in HS, we moved heavy equipment and livestock back and forth between California winter pastures and Wyoming summer grazing. We had (4) trucks moving 1000 head of cattle non-stop twice a year. The fuel cost was insignificant compared to the cost of feed.

We spent aprox, $1000 per truck per week, ($4000 a week in fuel), kind of steep right? We also never changed oil, unless it was necessary. Changing motor oil in a diesel truck was a primary discussion between my grandfather, uncles and myself. We would draw from the vehicle one pint sample, send it off to a lab to have the oil analyzed, then wait for a report that read, "you are good for another 10,000 miles".

Scheduled maint., became a cost center, budget reduction usually ended in me taking a paycut. Usually resulting in me going from canned tuna fish to sharing a can of wet dog food with "Blue", Rusty" or "Banjo", three Dingo blue healers, who by the way were worth more than any damn cow we moved.

Sorry for the rant, never buy a 6.7L diesel motor.

What rant?

All sage advice and some valuable things to definitely consider, thanks.

I am still going to consider any 99-03 7.3L diesel especially since on the used market, it's price is more typically reasonable than not, especially compared to anything new. I agree the Dodge Cummings has tranny issues which are prohibitive but I also keep hoping the latest upgrades will show promise. (not holding my breath though)
Your fuel analysis by comparison sounds spot on. Your comparison for new vehicles makes this an excellent thought process for consideration for anyone who wants a "NEW" truck that performs and is dependable.....with real economic considerations. Excellent :)

I'll be in the market later this year or the next and will be playing the field thoroughly. You've given me some very real and much appreciated considerations and I suspect we'll talk some more. Thanks again....jd

Penn

01-04-2011, 04:42

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/01/02/MT541H0I23.DTL

JoelBlack

01-04-2011, 07:29

I thought all SF drove BMW M6s, Z06 Corvettes, Hummer H2s, Shelbys, etc.....:p

The Reaper

01-04-2011, 07:45

I thought all SF drove BMW M6s, Z06 Corvettes, Hummer H2s, Shelbys, etc.....:p

1995 Dodge Ram 2500HD 4x4, 8.0 V-10.

TR

JoelBlack

01-04-2011, 08:16

1995 Dodge Ram 2500HD 4x4, 8.0 V-10.

TR

I bet it is not scared of gas station. Plenty of truck for pulling. It's what I like calling, " the dog wagging the tail, and not the tail wagging the dog!"

1stindoor

01-04-2011, 13:21

1995 Dodge Ram 2500HD 4x4, 8.0 V-10.

TR

I'll see your 95 Ram and raise you an '08 GMC Sierra 2500 HD. I've got the smaller engine though, 6.0 L, gas, K&N Cold Air Induction and Super chipped for moments of insanity.

And I've never passed a gas station I didn't like either.

I'm hoping this'll be my "last" for many, many, years. Pulling the boat is child's play with the beast.

GratefulCitizen

01-11-2011, 13:57

The newest truck I have is a 2000 F350 7.3L Diesel, 450,000+ miles.

Was chatting with my mechanic a few days ago about the 7.3 Ford.
Some years ago, he worked at a Ford garage.

While doing a routine checkup, he noticed that truck's wastegate wasn't operating.
He hooked it back up, did the rest of the checkup, and sent the customer on his way.

The customer returned right away, complaining that the engine was making far less power.
The warrantee prohibited disabling the wastegate, so he just showed the customer how to disable it.

That customer never had a problem with that engine.
Turns out, the wastegate settings for the 7.3 in light trucks may be way too conservative (probably for meeting emission standards, anyway).

Had a 7.3 in the UPS I used for many years (don't use that truck much anymore).
Judging by how the engine performed, the wastegate probably doesn't bypass much (if anything).

The first engine went 400,000+ miles of serious abuse before replacement.
Even then, the problems were low-flowing injectors and a cracked exhaust manifold (UPS just swaps engines at a certain cost point).

The underlying engine was fine.
Only problems I've ever had with the latest engine were electrical (wiring harness), cooling (leaking heater hose), and low oil levels (causing fail-safe shutdown).

All of those problems were due to lack of routine maintenance from the mechanics, not the engine itself.
The 7.3 is an awesome engine.

Ret10Echo

01-11-2011, 18:24

I thought all SF drove BMW M6s, Z06 Corvettes, Hummer H2s, Shelbys, etc.....:p

Had the '92 Dodge 2500 with Cummings diesel. Truck got 19 mpg if it was empty or had hay bales stacked 3-rows above the cab. Great engine, not 100% on the packaging around it. Only issue I ever had was with the transmission failing to shift during acceleration. Dealership wanted several thousand to drop the tranny and check it out. Talked to a vet-owned local joint over the phone who told me it sounded electrical not mechanical. A little google-fu and I found the problem and the $7.95 part I needed...shipped and installed, $12.95.

I miss that truck. Gave up it and the horses when I came back East :boohoo.

Currently in a 2010 Chevy 4x4 with all the bells and whistles. More car than truck, but it'll haul firewood.

Have other vehicles in the fleet that I take to the same dealer for maintenance (They are all GM products). I must admit they have treated me right over the past couple of years since I started going. They even gave me one of those "Preferred customer" key tags that gets me a pastry and a car wash when I take in any of the vehicles :D Thus far they have been straight up with me and as long as that attitude remains they will have my business.

Angry Mike

03-31-2012, 06:00

Not to resurrect an old thread, but here goes...

Does any one have any recent experience with Jeep?

I am looking at a two year +/- Wrangler Rubicon 4 door.

Any input or comments?

Angry

PSM

03-31-2012, 14:16

Not to resurrect an old thread, but here goes...

Does any one have any recent experience with Jeep?

I am looking at a two year +/- Wrangler Rubicon 4 door.

Any input or comments?

Angry

I just bought a 2012 last month. I wanted a used one, but, here, they are hard to find, disappear quickly, and cost almost as much as a new one.

Here's a good JK forum that might help: http://www.jk-forum.com/forum.php

Pat

zuluzerosix

04-02-2012, 11:51

Used 4x4 Jeeps with decent miles (ave 12-45K per year used) typically sell for Kelly Blue Book Retail. They seem expensive compared to other used cars because used cars typically trade for about $2K below Kelly Blue Book wholesale value and sell for about $1K under KBB Retail. Jeeps, on the other hand, trade at blue book wholesale and sell at KBB retail. The average used jeep takes about $1200 to recondition for the lot, because they almost always need new tires.

So for the dealer, they are expensive to buy, there is not much profit in them, but they are always a guaranteed sale!

zuluzerosix

04-02-2012, 11:55

Was chatting with my mechanic a few days ago about the 7.3 Ford.
Some years ago, he worked at a Ford garage.

While doing a routine checkup, he noticed that truck's wastegate wasn't operating.
He hooked it back up, did the rest of the checkup, and sent the customer on his way.

The customer returned right away, complaining that the engine was making far less power.
The warrantee prohibited disabling the wastegate, so he just showed the customer how to disable it.

That customer never had a problem with that engine.
Turns out, the wastegate settings for the 7.3 in light trucks may be way too conservative (probably for meeting emission standards, anyway).

Had a 7.3 in the UPS I used for many years (don't use that truck much anymore).
Judging by how the engine performed, the wastegate probably doesn't bypass much (if anything).

The first engine went 400,000+ miles of serious abuse before replacement.
Even then, the problems were low-flowing injectors and a cracked exhaust manifold (UPS just swaps engines at a certain cost point).

The underlying engine was fine.
Only problems I've ever had with the latest engine were electrical (wiring harness), cooling (leaking heater hose), and low oil levels (causing fail-safe shutdown).

All of those problems were due to lack of routine maintenance from the mechanics, not the engine itself.
The 7.3 is an awesome engine.

Ford's most stellar engine. Our new engine is supposed to be "that Stellar." Apparently we have all the issules with 6.0L worked out. Time will tell everything.

Crito

04-02-2012, 20:26

Not to resurrect an old thread, but here goes...

Does any one have any recent experience with Jeep?

I am looking at a two year +/- Wrangler Rubicon 4 door.

Any input or comments?

Angry

I have a 2007 4-door, Sahara trim with a hard top. Bought it last June and have had no bad experiences with it.

As someone else stated it handles great both on and offroad. I am in the Western Kentucky area. We have plenty of hilly trails with mud, but not anything like bouldering that you might see out West (just to give you an idea of the terrain I've taken it on.) The engine does not have quite the acceleration I expected when I first picked it up, but I don't notice it now. I have not pulled a load, but would not be afraid to pull a medium sized boat.

The back seats lay down nearly flat giving you quite a bit of room in the back.

The main drawback for me has been the hard top. I have been told it weighs 145lbs and I believe it. For two men it is heavy but trivial to remove, for one person I would say nearly impossible. I have gotten in the back and lifted it off the Jeep but was not comfortable with the balance to try and step out of the Jeep with it. If you had a garage to build a hoist for it then this wouldn't be an issue.

I would consider hard what you want the Jeep for before buying a nice 4 door.

I LOVE my Wrangler but I am looking to sell it and buy an older 2 door. I bought a 4 door because I wanted more room for my fiance's 6 year old in the back (Particularly as she grows and has friends over more frequently).

The reality is when we take family trips we usually take my fiance's Highlander because it has better gas mileage (my Jeep gets about 18-19mpg highway, incidentally). When I go off roading I'm generally alone or with 1 buddy. Don't really need the space. I just end up cringing when tree branches get too close to the paint. If I took a lot of long camping trips where I need more cargo space I might be as well off 4WD truck.

I also figure that if I had an older Jeep that cost half as much then I have that much more money to put into lifting it, bigger tires, winch, and various other fun toys.

PM me if you have any specific questions, or if you're near West Kentucky and want to test drive an '07 that's for sale :p

cold1

04-02-2012, 20:35

Wow, 4 years later and I am still in the same Vehicle as my first post on this thread. Its paid for so I am keeping it a while longer. It still has problems. (o4 explorer) The first wheel bearing went out at 98K miles, over the next 2 years all 4 have been changed out. Some twice. Its not like the old wheel bearings that were $20 each. Now you have to change the hub out, Average repair price $375. The harmonic balancer went out at 125K. Ford has updated the new balancer because the old design had a flaw (not recall worthy) The new price $350 for the balancer plus installation. Total bill $700.

Everytime it breaks i cuss and raise hell, then i remember i havent had to make a car payment in 3 years.

Angry Mike

04-02-2012, 21:10

Gents

Thanks for the info.

I am the guy the auto industry hates. Buy a car 2 yrs old and drive it for 10+ years.

IF I pick one of these Wranglers up, it will be for at least 8-10 years so I am not sweating a small investment. May try the USAA car buying service. We buy cars so infrequently, it really doesn't impact us much.

I am tired of having to take the (gulp) Mom van up when we go skiing. My little truck just doesn't have the room. Figure going to Copper or farther will be easier with a 4~door for me, frau & chimps. You know the deal.

Anywhooo, thanks for the info. Appreciate it.

MT

fng13

04-04-2012, 12:01

Angry Mike,

As a guy that has decent experience with Jeeps (Currently own 2 Grand Cherokee's 01/04 family owns 5 currently) including a good a mount of time wrenching on them I'd suggest taking a look at an older Cherokee.

Certainly they are not as flashy as the new Wranglers but the older Cherokees ride well, reliable, tough, and relatively easy to work on (if that's your kind of thing)

The 4.0 Inline 6 engine is damn near bulletproof and with regular oil changes and the occasional tune up will last you till the car rusts around it. Its not a power house but is a work horse.

Also, they can be had relatively cheap and in good condition for example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/L-K-VIDEO-4X4-48K-ORIGINAL-MILES-MINT-CONDITION-NEW-TIRES-/230772128551?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item35bb173b27#ht_17177wt_1165

If you are really just looking for a car with a strong 4 wheel drive for ski trips camping etc. it will serve you well without the financial investment of a Rubicon.

Leaving you a little extra cash for some other toys or maybe a sportier car.

Just my $.02

mark46th

04-04-2012, 16:37

Re: 7.3l Ford- I put 260,000 miles on a 1994 F350. It never used a drop of oil except for the time I blew out the turbo 700 miles deep in Baja. It took a couple of cases of oil to get back up but it made it. It looked like Gru's jet in Despicable Me.

My mechanic bought it from me in 2004 when I bought an Excursion. He still uses it....

Angry Mike

04-08-2012, 16:27

Z06, what's your opinion of USAA or any other of the car buying services?

Is Carmax a better deal?

I am looking on some of the jeep'er web sites also.

gracias, amigo

mt

GratefulCitizen

10-13-2013, 15:25

Seemed like the best thread.

Been watching this story for awhile.
Cummins has a new engine.

http://cumminsengines.com/cummins-5l-v8-turbo-diesel
http://cumminsengines.com/5L-v8-turbo-diesel?&Categories=103#overview

Not sure how much these will cost, but could have a big effect on the light truck market.
Wouldn't be surprised to see them in a UPS truck soon.

GratefulCitizen

10-13-2013, 18:32

Its currently slated to go into Nissans, but I pray that Ford sources this engine. Their current diesels are mediocre at best, horrendous at worst.

A Nissan mechanic working on a diesel - that will be a sight. :D.

Cummins addresses some non-technical problems with this engine.

There have been plenty of diesel engines made which would be superb in light trucks.
The problem has been marketing (and transmissions).

This new engine probably reaches peak power around 3200 rpm, which makes it act more like a gasoline engine.
Also, it's a V8 displacing at least 5 liters.

The consumer market doesn't want diesels which act like diesels.
They want diesels which act like big gasoline engines and make lots of noise (black smoke is a bonus, if you can get it).

Cummins has other engines which would probably be more useful, but lack marketing appeal.
The pickup truck version of the 6.7 was sped up to act more like a gasoline engine.

All of the UPS trucks at our center have MBE904 engines.
Fantastic starting, reliability, durability, and fuel economy.

Well over 400 ft-lbs of torque from 1200-2200 rpm.
Only 170hp, but you can run it full power all day long without a problem.

Not for the consumer market.
Nobody is going to buy a "big" pickup truck with a 4.3 liter 4-banger.