Help me price my AR15, looking to sell maybe.

[ranger2339]

I'm looking to sell my AR-15 and get a handgun, I dont have anyplace to shoot it and just have it around for home security. so I was thinking maybe you guys can tell me what its worth, so I could sell it at a fair price or trade for a handgun.
I dont know much about it, as I got it from a guy for helping him build a deck a few years ago. I've maybe put 100rds through it since I've had it.

What I do know about it.
Made by Stoner.
Has Titanium bolt and carrier.
Rail System
Unknown optic, like a CCO.
Comes with a soft case, in mint cond.
Its a post ban upper. Has weird plug thing in flash surpressor.
And some other misc. stuff you can see from the photos.

Any help would be great.


http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/ranger2339/AR15001.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/ranger2339/AR15005.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/ranger2339/AR15004.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/ranger2339/AR15006.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/ranger2339/AR15003.jpg

[Paslode]

What information is listed on the lower receiver? Mfg, Model etc.

[The Reaper]

It would appear to be a Stoner SR-15, from KAC.

The paint is not original, is it?

TR

[ranger2339]

Its hard to read whats on the lower, because the guy spray painted it. So no the paint is not original.

All it says is SR-15 M4

CAL 5.56



Thanks
Axe

[Pete]

Axe;

It is illegal to sell a long gun without it's replacement on hand. Pistols do not count.


At least it should be:D.

Pete

[ranger2339]

I still have an SKS and a Mossberg in house.
What I really want is a DPMS AR-10, or something like that.

Like this beast!
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/slideshow.aspx?id=18

[The Reaper]

I agree that I would not be comfortable without a 5.56 carbine on hand, especially with the political winds of change coming, but you know your situation best. You can pretty much guarantee an effort to renew the AWB, or something more draconian when the fall elections are over. Solid Dem majorities in both houses of Congress and in the White House will make it hard to find someone to look out for us and to say No.

You are going to take a price hit with the paint on it. The value of something depends on finding a buyer who wants it as well as a seller. The used gun market is pretty flat right now. Best way to do this is a face to face swap with someone in your area who really wants one.

TR

[Paslode]

You could throw it up on the AR15 dot com Equipment Exchange and see what interest it generates and if it worth your while to part with it.

Here is an upper only:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=563678

Don't know much about KAC, but from what I have heard the DPMS would be a downgrade. I am no expert on guns but depending on what scope you have on their you probably can't touch that new for less than 2k.

I'd have a difficult time parting with your KAC if it were mine.

[ranger2339]

I had no idea that KMC (it says KMC on it,not KAC?) was any good.
I'm going to do some more research on it and then make my decision. I agree that not having a 5.56 in the house would fell odd, since I know the weapon so well and there is lot of ammo in the states for it.

I would like to change the suppresor on it to the pre ban though..

Edit:

Ok so I scraped off some of the paint, so I could read what it says and it says KMC, has the logo like a KAC, serial number is KM11153, when in all the pics I see of the KAC ones the serials start with KA and they say KAC on them next to the logo? Maybe its a knock off, I dont know?

Axe

[The Reaper]

I had no idea that KMC (it says KMC on it,not KAC?) was any good.
I'm going to do some more research on it and then make my decision. I agree that not having a 5.56 in the house would fell odd, since I know the weapon so well and there is lot of ammo in the states for it.

I would like to change the suppresor on it to the pre ban though..

Axe

The FS is pinned and welded, and will take a gunsmith to replace.

I would keep the upper as is and buy another to change around.

TR

[Paslode]

KMC is Knights Manufacturing Company aka Knights Armament Co.

http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/company.cfm?company=534410

[ranger2339]

Edit: Paslode beat me to it.

After more searching I found out that I have a varriant of the Mil. Spec M4, made from Knight's Manufacturing Company (KMC).

Here is what I have in basic form, I think. Mine has a few more add ons, a titantium bolt & carrier and all that Jazz. So I guess it would be fair to say that this weapon was over/around 2k when new.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/KMC-98072.html

[Paslode]

Edit: Paslode beat me to it.

After more searching I found out that I have a varriant of the Mil. Spec M4, made from Knight's Manufacturing Company (KMC).

Here is what I have in basic form, I think. Mine has a few more add ons, a titantium bolt & carrier and all that Jazz. So I guess it would be fair to say that this weapon was over/around 2k when new.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/KMC-98072.html

I think you fared pretty well on that deck build! LMT's Enhanced BCG retails at $285 so I would bet you Ti BCG is at least a 2 to 3 bills on top that. My LMT MRP was about $1500. $100 for the bipod, $300 to $500 for the scope maybe more. 2k plus.

Keep it.

[ranger2339]

I didnt even really build the deck, I was just the cut man and:lifter

Im just going to keep it, I didnt know is was a good rifle at all. I almost sold it for 1k to a guy last week.

Thanks guys.
Josh

[Paslode]

I hope it was a very large deck :D

[The Reaper]

Im just going to keep it, I didnt know is was a good rifle at all. I almost sold it for 1k to a guy last week.

Thanks guys.
Josh

They sold them for more than $1,000.

That just means that Reed found buyers, it does not mean that the weapon is worth $1,000 outside that circle of KAC worshipers.

Personally, I would rather have an LMT M-4 with an SPR upper for the same money.

TR

[Paslode]

They sold them for more than $1,000.

That just means that Reed found buyers, it does not mean that the weapon is worth $1,000 outside that circle of KAC worshipers.

Personally, I would rather have an LMT M-4 with an SPR upper for the same money.

TR


True. But then again there are those that consider LMT owners of which I am one as Koolaide drinkers that bought into the hype and paid too much :munchin

[ranger2339]

I'm not a big shooter outside of work and what not, so what I got is good enough for me. As long as it puts bullets were I want them to go I guess.
Most of my money goes into my hotrods.

Any advice on what upper to get? I want to get one with a pre ban suppresor and maybe a new optic for it.

Thanks
Josh

[Paslode]

I like my LMT MRP upper and it shoots well as your ability and the ammo you put in it. It has some pluses and minuses. On the plus side barrels are easily changed and the rail is one piece. On the negative side it requires a special tool (which is included) to change the barrel, the barrel isn't interchangable with other systems and weight might be on the heavy side.


If I used it as a tool of my trade the barrel would be a worry because it isn't interchangable with other systems.

http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=56&cid=8

For plicking and trips to the range it is overkill but I love it none the less.

I also considered Sabre Defense:
http://www.sabredefence.com/commercial.php?focus=upper#spr

[tinmanHRSO]

I dont know much about it, as I got it from a guy for helping him build a deck a few years ago. I've maybe put 100rds through it since I've had it.

Comes with a soft case, in mint cond.



hate to burst your bubble but the only way it could ever be considered in Mint condition is if it was NIB. This rifle has not only been fired by yourself, but the spray paint job, no matter how well done, will murder the resale value.

I built my own from the ground up designed to use in close quarters, vehicle ops and PSD work. It's not an outreageous Hollywood custom at all but I still have more than $4000 invested in the weapon. I've put more than 8000 rounds through her, replacing extractor and gas rings usuallly every 1500 - 2000 rounds, The entire bolt and carier assembly at about 6000 rounds. The Noveske barrell life is approx 15,000 - 20,000 rounds with regular maintenence. So even after the 8000 rounds the weapon is has no noticeable wear. Yet the most I can hope for if I were to sell it as an individual would be around $900 - 1000 if I'm lucky.

[tinmanHRSO]

I'm not a big shooter outside of work and what not, so what I got is good enough for me. As long as it puts bullets were I want them to go I guess.
Most of my money goes into my hotrods.

Any advice on what upper to get? I want to get one with a pre ban suppresor and maybe a new optic for it.

Thanks
Josh

If you're not looking to spend much time fine tuning but you want top performance out of the box I'd have to say invest in the Noveske complete upper SBR with Krink. Hands down, the finest performance I've ever had in any M4 variant.

It's built using the Vltor upper receiver, Noveske heavy 10" bead blasted matte stainless barrel and Krink Flash suppressor. The Krink eliminates cycling problems associated with short barrelled rifles completely. Regardless of ammo choices, I have suffered zero malfunctions using it. The bolt and carrier assembly is included and all parts are full auto rated. Includes a Noveske rail system which shares the exact same plane as the flat top upper so mounting options are simple, co-witness is true. BUIS from Troy. It's not cheap at $1400, but the only thing you need to do is pin your own ordinary lower reciever to it and start shooting sub MOA

[Razor]

Sub MOA out of a 10" barrel?

[tinmanHRSO]

Sub MOA out of a 10" barrel?

At 100 yds, Noveske guarantees sub MOA peformance on their 10" uppers. The reason for this is the same as why they are reliable.

The Krink flash suppressor creates a strong back pressure which is almost equal to the pressure from a 16" barrel producing enough force to complete the bolt cycle. The Krink also assists in the effeciency in which the gases are burned. In most 10" barrels with 5.56, unburned powder escapes the barrel before ignition and velocity is compomised. The krink causes some of the gases to recirculate before exiting due to it's shape, much like a suppressor will encourage gases to fold rearwards and cool before exiting the barrel.

The end result is a 10" barrel which peforms with muzzle velocity very near that of a 16" barrel.

Of course, the Noveske barrels aren't average barrels either, they're match grade heavy machine gun rated, extended feed ramps, custom matched to the Vltor upper and bolt face. The rifling is an improved polygonal 1X7 which also increases velocity and bullet stability.

It performs, seriously

[Lawless]

Sub MOA out of a 10 inch barrel can be had. Noveskes can do it. However a ten inch barrel, no matter what you do to it, will never and I mean not in a million years ever produce the same velocities as a 16 inch barrel will. That krink flash suppressor doesnt create even a quarter of the backpressure that a suppressor will. The reason for the increase of velocity in Noveske barrels is due to the polygonal rifling. Its the same type of rifling that is utilized in a Glock. It is still nowhere near 16 inch velocities out of a 10 inch gun. Its simply impossible. Im sorry to renew an old thread but I will not tolerate bad info being put out to those who would use it to defend their life. If you dont believe myself you can get on the horn with John Noveske himself and tell him of the claims the previous poster has made. He would get a chuckle out of it. His rifles are a cut above, but they are not sprinkled with fairy dust.

[The Reaper]

Agreed.

Tinman, there seems to be a lot of rumor in that post.

I agree that you can get a MOA or better out of a 10" barrel. Look at what people can do for accuracy with the T-C.

You might want to get out the Chrony and run your own velocity tests. I would expect around 250 fps less from a 10" barrel than a 16", regardless of the make.

I ain't buying that the Krink is all that and a bag of chips either. If it did that much, it would be classified as suppressor.

TR

[tinmanHRSO]

I think my post is being taken out of context for one thing I stated, and then ignored for the point I was trying to make. I was asked about it's possibility to produce MOA performance, which it does. I never said the Krink would equal a 16" velocity. I said "Near" I only mentioned the back pressure of the Krink to explain why the 10" barrel which is famous for being problematic, is so reliable with Noveske systems, along with it's polygonal rifling. If I hadn't mentioned that, I'm sure someone would have commented quickly about SBRs inherant unreliability. When using the 62gr SS109 from a standard 16" barrel velocity is approx 2989fps. The 10" standard barel is approx 2627fps. A difference of just 327fps. If the Krink and polygonal rifling used together create a back pressure sufficient enough to raise velocity by just 100fps, wouldnt you consider that to be "NEAR" 16" barrel velocity??? After all, you must remember, it does function flawlessly, cycling the bolt on a system designed for 16 - 20" barrels, using ammunition designed for 16 - 20" barrels without gas problems which are associated to SBRs and low velocity.

[Lawless]

The krink creating backpressure has nothing to do with the veloicty of the projectile. It increases gas fed back into the chamber area possibly beating the crap out of your weapon because of increased bolt velocity. You would also have to use a heavier buffer to compensate for this. If the gas system hasnt been optimized for just the krink then you could run into problems when installing a different flashider or suppressor. This could make the gun more unreliable if you changed it either way. Backpressure has almost nothing to do with velocity. If at all. Even suppressors like AAC, Surefire, etc all create way more backpressure than the krink and its like 15 fps. Hardly getting you near 16 inch velocities. The krink suppressor stops all flash and directs the muzzle blast away from the shooter, giving the perception of a quieter rifle. Its not some magical velocity increaser.

[The Reaper]

I think my post is being taken out of context for one thing I stated, and then ignored for the point I was trying to make. I was asked about it's possibility to produce MOA performance, which it does. I never said the Krink would equal a 16" velocity. I said "Near" I only mentioned the back pressure of the Krink to explain why the 10" barrel which is famous for being problematic, is so reliable with Noveske systems, along with it's polygonal rifling. If I hadn't mentioned that, I'm sure someone would have commented quickly about SBRs inherant unreliability. When using the 62gr SS109 from a standard 16" barrel velocity is approx 2989fps. The 10" standard barel is approx 2627fps. A difference of just 327fps. If the Krink and polygonal rifling used together create a back pressure sufficient enough to raise velocity by just 100fps, wouldnt you consider that to be "NEAR" 16" barrel velocity??? After all, you must remember, it does function flawlessly, cycling the bolt on a system designed for 16 - 20" barrels, using ammunition designed for 16 - 20" barrels without gas problems which are associated to SBRs and low velocity.

I agreed with you on the accuracy issue, but do not buy into the Krink hype.

I have a LMT 10.5" SBR that runs flawlessly. As you can read elsewhere here, I took it to a tactical carbine course and put over 1,000 rounds per day through it for several days with no upper problems, including several hundred rounds per day with a SureFire FA556K can mounted. I have fired bullet weights from around 40 grains up to 77 grains through it and the function of the upper has been flawless.

The problem is that too many companies (and individuals) think that all you have to do to create a shorty is to cut the barrel down, and many do not shoot it enough to find out that they will not run.

I have spoken extensively with firearms designers and engineers, and the cycle on the AR-15/M-16 weapons requires not just gas pressure (which can be increased by overboring the gas port), but dwell time, gas tube volume and length, bolt weight, extractor tension, chamber dimensions and finish, buffer spring strength, buffer weight, ammo, etc.

Good manufacturers take the time to sort all of that out and build a package that will run properly under a variety of conditions. Others will just slap it together and if a rifle is returned, slap a Band-Aid on it and send it back.

I have logged a lot of time over a Chrony shooting suppressed and unsuppressed ARs, and I do not think that you are getting 100 fps from increased backpressure from the barrel and Krink.

TR

[tinmanHRSO]

So basically you guys are telling me that Noveske is full of it, I'm full of it. The upper reciever I paid almost $1400 for isn't real and I'm only imagining the performance I've been enjoying for the past 6 months is that it???? Or are you saying that it's not possible for someone like myself to actually make an intelligent post? Or maybe you're actually saying that if you guys haven't purchased something yourself then it must be a piece of shit? Give me a fucking brreak I got nothing to lie about, I don't work for Noveske, Im not just citing crap from an ad. I own one of these uppers and use it several times a week. I've owned more SBRs than I can count and this one by far beats them all hands down. I'm an instructor and security operator still in the business and I just tell it like it is. I really couldnt give a shit what you guys believe but don't just assume I'm a liar either.

It's sadly something which I've come to expect here after I made a post backing up another person's claim supporting PMags from MagPul which was quickly attacked and largely ignored. I stated my experiences with the Pmags and backed it up with other information from many sources and it was regarded in the same way, little respect, zeo trust, instead it was as if the post was instantly something to be fought against and disproven simply because it came from a poster with under 100 posts. The next time I visited the site however, suddenly a new post about Pmags was praising them using little more than a few of the same facts once given by myself and ignored. Yet this time it came from a poster with many posts, and so instantly, it was embraced as law.

Really, has the professionalism among you transformed into a country club attitude appearing as "Elitism?"

[The Reaper]

So basically you guys are telling me that Noveske is full of it, I'm full of it. The upper reciever I paid almost $1400 for isn't real and I'm only imagining the performance I've been enjoying for the past 6 months is that it???? Or are you saying that it's not possible for someone like myself to actually make an intelligent post? Or maybe you're actually saying that if you guys haven't purchased something yourself then it must be a piece of shit? Give me a fucking brreak I got nothing to lie about, I don't work for Noveske, Im not just citing crap from an ad. I own one of these uppers and use it several times a week. I've owned more SBRs than I can count and this one by far beats them all hands down. I'm an instructor and security operator still in the business and I just tell it like it is. I really couldnt give a shit what you guys believe but don't just assume I'm a liar either.


Why the attitude when someone has an honest disagreement with you? Did I miss the part where someone called you names or used profanity in their comments to you?

If you have another non-Noveske/Krink upper with the same barrel length, take them both to the range with the same ammo and a Chrony and check the MVs under the same conditions. I have shot a Noveske and do not think that they will be as far apart as you are claiming, and I still do not believe that the backpressure of the Krink is anywhere near what you think it is. I do believe that an SBR can shoot sub-MOA, that you paid a lot of money for yours, and will take your word for it that the gun runs.

You are a guest here, and are asking me to disregard my own experiences and accept your word for yours, and your analysis.

If you find my observations offensive, you might want to check your professionalism as an "instructor and security operator", or just find a board where everyone agrees with you on everything.

TR

[tinmanHRSO]

No it's not that boss, I think maybe I've been in country too long or something this time, I'm needing a trip CONUS to level my head. I've begun noticing my attitude lately and others I work with also.

[The Reaper]

So basically you guys are telling me that Noveske is full of it, I'm full of it. The upper reciever I paid almost $1400 for isn't real and I'm only imagining the performance I've been enjoying for the past 6 months is that it???? Or are you saying that it's not possible for someone like myself to actually make an intelligent post? Or maybe you're actually saying that if you guys haven't purchased something yourself then it must be a piece of shit? Give me a fucking brreak I got nothing to lie about, I don't work for Noveske, Im not just citing crap from an ad. I own one of these uppers and use it several times a week. I've owned more SBRs than I can count and this one by far beats them all hands down. I'm an instructor and security operator still in the business and I just tell it like it is. I really couldnt give a shit what you guys believe but don't just assume I'm a liar either.

It's sadly something which I've come to expect here after I made a post backing up another person's claim supporting PMags from MagPul which was quickly attacked and largely ignored. I stated my experiences with the Pmags and backed it up with other information from many sources and it was regarded in the same way, little respect, zeo trust, instead it was as if the post was instantly something to be fought against and disproven simply because it came from a poster with under 100 posts. The next time I visited the site however, suddenly a new post about Pmags was praising them using little more than a few of the same facts once given by myself and ignored. Yet this time it came from a poster with many posts, and so instantly, it was embraced as law.

Really, has the professionalism among you transformed into a country club attitude appearing as "Elitism?"

Since you edited your previous post to include additional comments, let me address a couple of them here. I don't have to explain myself to you, or anyone else who is a guest on our board, but will try to do this for the benefit of anyone who may be reading this thread, which is way off topic already.

We have no idea who you are or if you have any real experience at all. You might be some 14 year old Airsoft ninja wannabe, regardless of your post count. Anyone can register and start posting here. "Security professional", "operator" and "instructor" are nebulous terms and carry little real meaning. I have seen mall cops make those claims before, as well as people who take a trip overseas as a contractor and sit on a FOB for six months.

On the other hand, when a QP reports something, regardless of post count reports something, he is a vetted member of this board and his post carries some weight. I know what he has been through in training, and usually his rep, where he has served, and the combat experience he might have. If you think you are the first one to call us elitists, you do not know much about us.

Your observations are not normally going to carry the same weight as Lawless, for example, who we know has seen the elephant, or one of the QPs here. There are non-QPs on this board who have earned the right to express expert opinions and have their personal observations accepted on face value. Bill Harsey is a bonafide knife-making expert, as is swatsurgeon on trauma medicine. Both are staff members because of their expertise. OTOH, we have no idea who you really might be, and the value of your opinions is going to be rated accordingly. If Phil Seeberger or Doc Dater shows up here, and wants to talk cans, they would be given considerable latitude. If you were Jim Sullivan or Mark Westrom, your opinions on the M-16 would carry considerable weight, regardless of post count. You, on the other hand, are an unknown, and a rude one to boot.

Some of us agreed with part of your premise, but had some concerns about a couple of your claims. When you read these comments, you seem to have gotten pretty hostile, and unnecessarily.

I think you need to check the attitude and apologize before posting further. If you have a problem with that, move out and draw fire.

TR

[tinmanHRSO]

You're 100% correct sir on all points and I admit I was out of line. I apologize for the hostility, something I need to work on. There's a lot of issues right now that have nothing to do with this forum and I shouldn't have brought it into play here among friends. Again, I apologize.

You ever work with Ugandan TCNs? lol, I'll just leave it at that, lol.

[The Reaper]

You're 100% correct sir on all points and I admit I was out of line. I apologize for the hostility, something I need to work on. There's a lot of issues right now that have nothing to do with this forum and I shouldn't have brought it into play here among friends. Again, I apologize.

You ever work with Ugandan TCNs? lol, I'll just leave it at that, lol.

No, Africa was out of my AO, and I was happy with that situation.:D

TR

[MeC86]

For what its worth. The best 100 yrd group I've been able to get from my 10.5" Noveske was about 1.5". Which I am very happy with.

Also....we were using some 40 gr. frangible ammunition that was not functioning very well in my rifle (short stroking, not ejecting). I borrowed a KX3 from a friend and had zero issues after that with the same ammo. He claimed it would create a little more back pressure and correct the problem. Seemed to work on my gun.

[Lawless]

It will create extra backpressure. Just not enough to make any noticable gains in the velocity of your projectile. As for your rifle, I would seriously consider a change in ammo. The centripetal force that the fast twist rate exerts on the bullet can cause your frangible ammo to come apart. Also its probably whats causing your functioning problems. Switch to a heavier ammo and Id bet you dollars to donuts that solves your problems. Your rifle is MP tested and designed to be used with NATO pressure 5.56x45 ammo. I highly doubt thats what you were shooting if it was 40 gr frangible. 223 rem and NATO 5.56 have very little difference with regards to the actual dimensions of the round, but they are two totally different animals when you look at their pressures. Change that ammo to something heavier and for gods sake dont run the frangible stuff through a suppressor. Also I dont know what ammo you have tested with regards to that rifle or what means you use to measure your groups. With that said you should try alot of different ammo in different weights to see what your rifle shoots best. The twist rate of all Noveske barrels are 1-7. It would be best for your rifle if you would shoot a heavier weight of ammo in between 55 and 77 grains at NATO pressure. Try these things and if it doesnt solve it let me know the specifics and Ill try to help you more. The KX3 is just a band aid for your gun malfunctioning and I would encourage you to find the base problem without it. Aaron

TR thanks for the defense.

[MeC86]

Lawless,

We recently were training at a shoot-house and the only ammo that was allowed was frangible, so our firearms guys picked up a few thousand rounds of it. As for duty use, we are currently using 55 gr Hornady and debating on a switch to 75 gr.

When I shot my best group it was 5 rounds with the 55 gr Hornady.

I hate the frangible stuff, it seems to give everyone's weapons problems and like you said, will come apart when exiting the barrel (resulting in a shower of sparks from the end of my gun)

Thanks for the input. Always appreciated.

[Lawless]

Not a problem sir. TAP is decent ammo, I dont have enough experience to voice an authoritative opinion on it though. Before making a change in ammo standardization I would make sure to test alot of different ammo. Many people (.mil, LEO and Civies alike) put too much stock in reviews in gun rags and so called statements from those that have used it. I did some testing of my own before selecting an ammo for home defense. I shot drywall, glass, wood, carpet with the foam padding and wood behind it. I tested some of the TAP 75 NATO , and Black Hills 77 grain ammo that had the cannelure in it. Both of the afformentioned rounds mostly broke up or were seriously hampered by anything I tested it on. Anyone who has used either will tell you that they dont penetrate much of anything well. They do retain some weight though that could possibly be a danger to innocents on the other side of the wall you might have to shoot at. Weight retention is ideal in a combat scenario but not so much for the protective homeowner, and definetly not for any LEO that has to use their weapon. I would just make sure that the person in charge of procurement of your ammo does the proper testing of the ammo they intend to buy for your use. If they order ammo that overpenetrates it would be your *** in the wringer if a bullet fragment stuck a friendly not theirs. Stay safe. Aaron.

[tinmanHRSO]

No, Africa was out off my AO, and I was happy with that situation.:D

TR

Im sorry I meant that the TCNs were from Uganda. I'm not working in Africa after all though, I don't remember if I had talked with you about that gig once before but the guy running the so-called PMC and was securing the Afri-Com contract ended up being full of shit.

He had a bogus website in the PMCs name but it was really just his networking angle. A way to gain contacts while looking for work with a PMC. He ended up signing on with EODT and is working at this time. I went with another company at another AO.

Ugandans are alot of the company's workforce. Along with Sri Lankans, Bosnians, and TCNs from several other countries. I'm working with the Ugandans currently and they're probably the worst ones to get stuck with, lol.

Complain, bitch and moan about everthing. Always writing you up with the accusation of "Abuse" I said "What? I never laid a finger on him!" But to them, if they say "You abused me" it means "You offended me" lol. Give me a break! Making them actually do their job offends them?

The Bosnians however, they're just like the Ghurkas, only more grateful, and a bit less robotic. They're just happy to have the job and most are running around with pieces of shrapnel or bullets in their bodies already so they know what it is to be "abused!" lol

[tinmanHRSO]

It will create extra backpressure. Just not enough to make any noticable gains in the velocity of your projectile. As for your rifle, I would seriously consider a change in ammo. The centripetal force that the fast twist rate exerts on the bullet can cause your frangible ammo to come apart. Also its probably whats causing your functioning problems. Switch to a heavier ammo and Id bet you dollars to donuts that solves your problems. Your rifle is MP tested and designed to be used with NATO pressure 5.56x45 ammo. I highly doubt thats what you were shooting if it was 40 gr frangible. 223 rem and NATO 5.56 have very little difference with regards to the actual dimensions of the round, but they are two totally different animals when you look at their pressures. Change that ammo to something heavier and for gods sake dont run the frangible stuff through a suppressor. Also I dont know what ammo you have tested with regards to that rifle or what means you use to measure your groups. With that said you should try alot of different ammo in different weights to see what your rifle shoots best. The twist rate of all Noveske barrels are 1-7. It would be best for your rifle if you would shoot a heavier weight of ammo in between 55 and 77 grains at NATO pressure. Try these things and if it doesnt solve it let me know the specifics and Ill try to help you more. The KX3 is just a band aid for your gun malfunctioning and I would encourage you to find the base problem without it. Aaron

TR thanks for the defense.



Some great info here. I never knew the risks of using frangible ammuntion through a suppressor before. I use a suppressor fairly often from Jet Suppressors, Although I've never used frangibles I appreciate knowing the risks in case, thanks. And btw, no hard feelings about earlier, I'm an asshole, but not a persistant one, lol.

[NousDefionsDoc]

They sold them for more than $1,000.

That just means that Reed found buyers, it does not mean that the weapon is worth $1,000 outside that circle of KAC worshipers.

Personally, I would rather have an LMT M-4 with an SPR upper for the same money.

TR

I need your hook up. Where are you getting the SPR upper for that, much less the lower...:munchin

[Lawless]

Some great info here. I never knew the risks of using frangible ammuntion through a suppressor before. I use a suppressor fairly often from Jet Suppressors, Although I've never used frangibles I appreciate knowing the risks in case, thanks. And btw, no hard feelings about earlier, I'm an asshole, but not a persistant one, lol.

No problem none taken. Is that Jet titanium. If so I wouldnt use it on anything but a bolt gun if I were you.

[tinmanHRSO]

No problem none taken. Is that Jet titanium. If so I wouldnt use it on anything but a bolt gun if I were you.

Why is that? I was part of their reseach and development team for several months before leaving. I never once had any problems with any of their systems. M4 SBRs, full auto suppressed, Suppressed G36, UMP, MP5, Plus several bolt guns but I was most impressed with how well Mike's suppressors worked on full autos without any failures, no explosive backbuild, no warping, and the titanium woked great as a heat sink for the barrel transferring barrel heat to the suppressor which cooled fast. Only thing was when firing through the full auto M4SBR, after 2 full mags firing cyclic, the suppressor would be white hot, we measured it at just over 1400 degrees once. One idiot made the mistake of leaning a hot can against the front fender of his car, lol. Melted right through it and started melting his front tire before he noticed it. Steel belt was exposed and everything lol.

here's a couple of pics from our testing at Jets on this page
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10252&page=54

[Lawless]

Titanium is a very strong, light, hard metal. When heated It is still light and hard , but it doesnt resist erosion well in that state. Or as it is offficialy known as, Oxidatiion. Its fine on a bolt gun. Youll never get a can hot enough to make a bit of difference, or fire it fast enough for that matter. Youve said that you got the cans white hot. Id like to see a picture of the blast baffle of those cans. It probably looks pretty bad. The oxidation of titanium in extreme temperatures was known a long time ago. Its why NASA decided to use Inconel in the shuttle engine parts that would recieve the most heat. Over half of its parts are made of Inconel 718. Grade 1 untreated Titanium is good up to around 600 degrees. Grade 5 is good to 900. Keep in mind that one rapid mag dump will put your can into the 600-800 degrees farenheit range. Thats hardly white hot. Inconel 718 is a heat treated alloy composed of at least 50% nickel. It is rated to handle 1300 degrees F for extended periods of time without significant loss in yield strength, or weight loss due to oxidation. Inconel is what is used in many name brand silencers including KAC, Surefire, AAC, SWR, and Gem-tech just to name a few. Jet is 100 percent Ti and I dont even know what grade. Titanium has been proven it is not a satisfactory high temp metal. If you dont believe me just read the numbers.

The one to pay attention to is Tensile strength, or yield.

Inconel 718
http://www.hightempmetals.com/techdata/hitempInconel718data.php

Pure Titanium, as it comes out of the ground.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MTU021

Grade 5 Ti that is not heat treated.
http://www.supraalloys.com/astm_grades.htm

Grade 5 Ti that has been solution(heat) treated and aged.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MTP642

[The Reaper]

NDD:

We are talking about the KAC M-4 pricing, which was high (around $1300, IIRC), when it first came out.

An SPR is a horse of a different color, though by the time you build an SPR upper with the barrel, receiver, rail system, sights, suppressor adaptor, bolt carrier group, charging handle, gas block, mount and optic, and drop a match trigger and A1 stock into the lower, you are into some serious coin. I had one that an AMU smith built, it wouldn't shoot, so I took it to my long gun 'smith and he built a great one. I got a deal on the scope and some other parts, but I agree, just the SPR upper, minus optics probably has well over a grand in it.

I have shot the SureFire shorty can on a SAW, burning a 200 round ammo pack through it as fast as I could in 6-9 round continuous bursts, as well as putting 15 full mags through an M-4 with the standard FA556 can in less than 5 minutes. In both cases, the suppressors had heated through red to a straw color, but the bullets were still flying to the same POI and there were no problems, before or after. The SureFire suppressor guru said that they had cut down one of their cans after 30,000 rounds and there was no appreciable wear on any of the surfaces and it all miked out to as new specs. IMHO, there are very few cans that will take that kind of abuse and keep running. Some require replacement of internal parts in as little as 1,000 rounds, and you can no longer buy rebuild kits, you have to send it to a licensed manufacturer for rebuild.

On a separate note, the suppressors do blow a lot of gas back through a standard M-16 type weapon with a direct gas impimgement operating system. I always use the Gas Buster charging handle, and it still blows oil and smoke through the receiver all over my shooting glasses in a long range session.

Agree about the Ti. Great metal for the right application, but it will not do everything well and does not like extreme heat.

TR

[Lawless]

Knights pricing is still high as hell and their kit is nearly unobtainable. That lower alone could probably be sold for a substantial markup. KAC fans will pay almost anything to get their hands on it. I bought a MK11 full kit SR-25 Navy gun for a very good price. Im sworn to secrecy by Trey but it was a great price. Its a great shooter, But that money looks alot better in the bank. I sold it for nearly 8000 dollars profit. Seriously.

[The Reaper]

My understanding is that almost all KAC parts sold on the civilian market are rejects or seconds off the government projects.

TR

[Lawless]

I got this one from the owners son. I can assure you its all matching and a real Navy gun. Ill post a photo in a few. I just got it out of the safe so I can send it off. In the past I might agree with you. Reed had and still doesnt have any concern for the civilian market. Trey (C Reed Knight III) is trying to change that with Lawmens and so far it seems to be working slowly. The attention is still not paid to the customer that should be though. I got my stuff pretty fast but I know Trey personally. Not everyone is as fortunate.

EDIT I read your post too fast. Yes everything is either rejects or runoff. They dont tool up anything special for the civilian market as far as I know. As long as the US has a contract there will always be a small supply of KAC stuff. That little bit of stuff commands a high price and is probably the reason for its small following.

Links to the photos

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/rakhard_2007/IMG_2021.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z182/rakhard_2007/IMG_2023.jpg

[tinmanHRSO]

Titanium is a very strong, light, hard metal. When heated It is still light and hard , but it doesnt resist erosion well in that state. Or as it is offficialy known as, Oxidatiion. Its fine on a bolt gun. Youll never get a can hot enough to make a bit of difference, or fire it fast enough for that matter. Youve said that you got the cans white hot. Id like to see a picture of the blast baffle of those cans. It probably looks pretty bad. The oxidation of titanium in extreme temperatures was known a long time ago. Its why NASA decided to use Inconel in the shuttle engine parts that would recieve the most heat. Over half of its parts are made of Inconel 718. Grade 1 untreated Titanium is good up to around 600 degrees. Grade 5 is good to 900. Keep in mind that one rapid mag dump will put your can into the 600-800 degrees farenheit range. Thats hardly white hot. Inconel 718 is a heat treated alloy composed of at least 50% nickel. It is rated to handle 1300 degrees F for extended periods of time without significant loss in yield strength, or weight loss due to oxidation. Inconel is what is used in many name brand silencers including KAC, Surefire, AAC, SWR, and Gem-tech just to name a few. Jet is 100 percent Ti and I dont even know what grade. Titanium has been proven it is not a satisfactory high temp metal. If you dont believe me just read the numbers.

The one to pay attention to is Tensile strength, or yield.

Inconel 718
http://www.hightempmetals.com/techdata/hitempInconel718data.php

Pure Titanium, as it comes out of the ground.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MTU021

Grade 5 Ti that is not heat treated.
http://www.supraalloys.com/astm_grades.htm

Grade 5 Ti that has been solution(heat) treated and aged.
http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MTP642


This is some very interesting information to say the least. Definately has my attention. I'm still able to communicate with the owner or Jet through Email, and better yet, a close friend of mine starting working there as a new machinist, and I know if I forward this to him he'll be straight up with me about the material. That is, if he even knows himself. I remember passing through the machine shop after a range test, OSPEC was priority with them, they didn't want any cams in the shop period, or even our eyes in the general direction of the machines while they were cutting a new batch.