View Full Version : Flash hiders/ supprossors or brakes.
Hellfire61
07-14-2008, 16:16
I having my bushmaster upgrade buy pws to the new piston system. They offered me a new FSC556 flash compressor, How much better is this than the A2 bird cage, for
a) muzzle control
b) flash reduction
is it worth doing the upgrade?
I have heard good reviews about this FSC556 brake/comp,,
But for 1/3 the cost the YHM Phantom may be the better deal and just as effective.
Phantom 5C2 Comp/Flash Suppressor, $30.50 , YHM-28-5C2
The popular Phantom Flash Suppressor has been redesigned to work as a muzzle compensator while maintaining the excellent flash hiding capabilities of its predecessor. This 5 port design has no downward facing port which helps eliminate dust problems when shooting in the prone position. The 5C2 keeps the aggressive front end used in hand to hand situations. For threaded barrels only. Includes crush washer.
http://www.yhm.net/
YHM also has a brake/comp that works with their can's,, if you ever plan take that route..
Phantom 5.56 Flash Hider for our Sound Suppressor This flash hider is used for our fast-attach sound suppressor (Patent Pending). It retains the excellent flash hiding capabilities of the original Phantom. This flash hider also accepts our Phantom 7.62 Sound Suppressor.
1/2"-28 Right-Hand Thread (YHM-3102A) $75.00
M 15 X 1 Right-Hand (YHM-3102M) $75.00
My $0.0002
Leozinho
07-14-2008, 19:09
This isn't for your duty weapon, I take it.
I have the FSC556. It is a big improvement in muzzle flip (though not so much recoil) over the bird cage. However, if it is just for the range or for 3-gun, there are cheaper and softer shooting comps out there.
To my naked eye, the FSC556 seemed to have just a bit more flash than the A2birdcage. All other comps, except perhaps for Surefire's new one which I haven't tried, are positively flamethrowers. That alone should rule them out for a serious gun.
The FSC556 is not as harsh on those shooting beside you as the other comps, but anyone standing even with the muzzle will definately be suprised the first time you fire through it. Surefire's comp is also supposed to be relatively tame as well.
Regarding muzzle flip vs recoil. The FSC556 seems to do a good job of keeping the muzzle down, but doesn't do much to lessen recoil. If you are looking through an optic, the dot or crosshairs will shudder or bounce around a little bit during recoil. Other comps geared to the competitive shooter will keep the muzzle down and soften recoil and the dot moves around a lot less.
Hellfire61
07-14-2008, 19:34
It is a free upgrade, so I think I will go for it, I currently have the A2, but if it reduces the muzzle bonce, then that is a big improvement, I am not worried about the recoil, I have just put a gas piston on the rifle and updated the buffer to be heavy.
Team Sergeant
07-15-2008, 08:48
It is a free upgrade, so I think I will go for it, I currently have the A2, but if it reduces the muzzle bonce, then that is a big improvement, I am not worried about the recoil, I have just put a gas piston on the rifle and updated the buffer to be heavy.
Two more things to reduce muzzle "bounce"; work out that upper body and two, hang a nice big flashlight under the barrel.;)
TS
Surefire's comp is also supposed to be relatively tame as well.
I've been using Surefire's FH556-212A on my carbine and like it a lot. FWIW to my naked eye, there seems to be no difference in flash between it and my previous Smith Vortex. At least it doesn't sound like a Garand running empty, though.
How is it as a comp? I can't say for sure - we are talking about squirrel guns after all! :D
Hellfire, how about some "dry fire" PT? Start with 250 single shot drills from the low ready per day and work up from there. :) I like to put 1" dots up around the house for variety and move from room to room - it's great for working on your mount and "seeing fast".
This isn't for your duty weapon, I take it.
I have the FSC556. ......... .
Pretty much sums up the experience that I've had with it. I put around 2000rds through an upper in 5.56 with it this last week. Better stability than the A2 flash hider, little more in the recoil department (but not much). It has more of a crack than the standard flash hiders. It does emit a bit more visible flash than others, depending on ammo of course. My ammo usage was M855 and it was soft shooting the whole time.
I had also shot the same style of break on a 6.8 upper. Fireballs galore!! :D
In my limited experience there is always a trade of sorts with flash hiders/suppressors and breaks. You'll get less recoil, but more muzzle rise. Or vice versa. You may get more flash than you like, especially for low light shooting.
TS mentioned a light and working out. Get a SF Devastator and hang that bad boy off your gun, carry it for 2 weeks and it'll negate the gym fees. :D
Hellfire61
07-15-2008, 21:59
I've been using Surefire's FH556-212A on my carbine and like it a lot. FWIW to my naked eye, there seems to be no difference in flash between it and my previous Smith Vortex. At least it doesn't sound like a Garand running empty, though.
How is it as a comp? I can't say for sure - we are talking about squirrel guns after all! :D
Hellfire, how about some "dry fire" PT? Start with 250 single shot drills from the low ready per day and work up from there. :) I like to put 1" dots up around the house for variety and move from room to room - it's great for working on your mount and "seeing fast".
I like the drill, I will give it a try.
Thanks all for you input, I get my upper back Thursday, we see how she shoots, I let you know my opinion.
I like to put 1" dots up around the house for variety and move from room to room - it's great for working on your mount and "seeing fast".
Spoken like a true single guy. :p
The Reaper
07-16-2008, 09:11
Muzzle devices are subject to the laws of physics, and there are no free lunches.
While there are a few spectacularly bad designs out there, the majority are optimized for one function or another.
A device which suppresses the flash will normally not help keep the muzzle down, and a compensator will not have much in the way of flash suppression. A muzzle brake designed to reduce recoil, as on a .50 rifle, will increase the amount of muzzle flash and blast.
Think of it as a triangle with flash suppression, muzzle compensation, and recoil as the points. As you approach one, you leave the others. If you try to approach two, you leave the other even further behind.
The only way I know of to get all three is to use a sound suppressor, and that is really effective at controlling flash, but manages to moderate muzzle climb and perhaps a bit of recoil chiefly through its increased weight hanging at the end of the muzzle. On the down side, the weapon will run dirtier, it will weigh more, it will tend toward being muzzle heavy, it will heat up faster and to a greater degree, it may affect accuracy and point of impact, and you will be poorer.
If you are shooting a rapid fire competition, you may prefer a compensated weapon. If you are shooting a relatively powerful weapon, you may want recoil reduction. If you are shooting in limited visibility or in a tactical situation, you might want to go with a flash suppressor. If you want to shoot your select fire, .50 BMG as a CQB weapon, you will have to compromise somewhere.
No free lunches. HTH.
TR
tinmanHRSO
07-17-2008, 20:13
FCS556 is absolutely the very best for controlling muzzle flip without nosediving or twist. Great for the flash signature also. But extremely loud! I've never seen one with suppressor attached. Im curious about it's damper on the suppressors effectiveness.
Blitzzz (RIP)
12-04-2009, 23:26
...from JP Enterprises. I baught the JP eliminator and put it on an 8mm Mauser and have only about 10% felt recoil. I have that much because my smith over bored the exit .40 for 338 not 323. had he bored as instructed I would have 0% recoil
The Eliminator can not be used in some compitions, but JP makes other recoil reducers that can be used in comps that reduce 75% of felt recoil.. Dave
The Reaper
12-05-2009, 09:00
...from JP Enterprises. I baught the JP eliminator and put it on an 8mm Mauser and have only about 10% felt recoil. I have that much because my smith over bored the exit .40 for 338 not 323. had he bored as instructed I would have 0% recoil
The Eliminator can not be used in some compitions, but JP makes other recoil reducers that can be used in comps that reduce 75% of felt recoil.. Dave
Dave:
Not physically possible.
Are you familiar with recoil testing?
TR
Sinister
12-05-2009, 12:28
EGW makes a GI A2 profile brake that helps with felt recoil and muzzle rise at the cost of increased muzzle blast noise:
http://www.coloradoshooting.org/egw2.jpg
http://www.coloradoshooting.org/egw4.jpg
http://www.coloradoshooting.org/egw.htm
Well written TR!
Sinister, the Adidas boots have been put to good use. Had the chance to meet & talk with Daniel Horner, Robby Johnson and the other U.S. shooters at the European IPSC rifle championships in Norway during July. Their squad was one ahead of us in the stage rotation. I mentioned to Daniel that it was you who I bought the boots from ;)
Leozinho
12-10-2009, 17:14
Here's an article from Front Sight magazine. This is the second part.
In the first article, the writer used an AR fixed to sled with wheels to measure recoil with a lot of different compensators (The further the sled moved backward when fired, the greater the recoil.)
Realizing that measured recoil suppression and not muzzle rise, he next fixed a visible laser to the barrel and recorded the movement of the laser with an camera. (Those results are in the attached article)
(It proved what I had thought: the DNTC compensator isn't the best at reducing recoil but does a good job at controling muzzle rise, which arguably is more important with a 5.56 round.)
Unfortunately, he didn't test the Surefire brake. The author posted this article elsewhere on the open net so I believe its kosher to post it here.
Leozinho
12-10-2009, 21:26
Here's the article describing the first part of the test.
frostfire
06-03-2011, 08:45
thanks so much for those articles, Leozinho. Took me this long to appreciate them now that I'm trying to see my hit/trace without a spotter. I don't mind blasting bystanders and competitors :D I've narrowed down the choice to:
- Surefire FA762SS
- SJC Titan
- JP recoil eliminator (tank brake)
- PWS DNTC
Anyone tried more than one of the above and able to shed some comparison?
Especially on the 7.62 OBR platform. Thanks in advance.
rubberneck
06-03-2011, 10:45
thanks so much for those articles, Leozinho. Took me this long to appreciate them now that I'm trying to see my hit/trace without a spotter. I don't mind blasting bystanders and competitors :D I've narrowed down the choice to:
- Surefire FA762SS
- SJC Titan
- JP recoil eliminator (tank brake)
- PWS DNTC
Anyone tried more than one of the above and able to shed some comparison?
Especially on the 7.62 OBR platform. Thanks in advance.
You might want to add the battle comp to your list of possibilities.
http://battlecomp.com/
What about the Noveske KX3 (Fire Breathing Pig)?
MVP
Iraqgunz
06-04-2011, 14:22
I'll second the Battle Comp recommendation. I tested one last summer when the guys sent it to me for T&E. A friend of mine and I did a night shoot with my wifes carbine (16" midlength) using M193, M855, Hornady T2 TAP and Q3131.
We utilized an AN/PVS-14 and had full moon conditions. The Battle Comp performed very well. Flash was probably a little better than that of the M16A2 birdcage. However, there was virutally no muzzle climb and follow up shots were very easy. I did controlled pairs and hammer pairs. I liked it enough that I kept it and paid for it.
I have recommended them to other AR users and all of them liked it. If I wasn't mounting a suppressor I would be using them on all the AR's.
Iraqgunz
06-04-2011, 14:24
The KX3 was designed for use on SBR's (especially 10.5") to provide additional backpressure to the weapon and enhance the cycling. If you are using them for any other reason it's simply a novelty.
The PWS ones that I have shit were brutally loud and I avoid being around anyone who is shooting one in my presence.
What about the Noveske KX3 (Fire Breathing Pig)?
MVP
I shoot SF brakes on all of my 556 rifles and while they are loud as hell to anyone not directly behind the shooter, they offer superb recoil compensation and muzzle rise reduction.
My $.02
Roguish Lawyer
06-04-2011, 19:20
I have an MSTN brake on mine
longrange1947
06-04-2011, 20:21
What has this world of shooting come to? Brakes on 556 and piss on the fellow shooters. No realistic expectation of hidding a signature, no expectation of your shooting buddy shooting comfortably. Just so that you have even less felt recoil than is already felt on a 556.
Just as a quick warning, a flash suppressor actually increases the visual signature at night whenobserved with NVDs, even the cheap NVDs, and especailly with thermals.
My 2 cents and end rant. :munchin
MK262MOD1
06-04-2011, 20:45
:lifter
My choice of Brakes came as a result of several factors:
Availability: I had them around
Compatibility with Suppressors: Which I also had around at the time
Environment: Shooting 3 gun matches with occasional hunting or the odd carbine class so not in my mind necessitate the signature reduction. If this is becomes required, hang the can on it and continue to roll.
Performance: No, the 556 is not likely to dislocate the shoulder of the shooter, but if one can increase performance I see increased noise and overall signature as a non issue *on a square range* I do not even pretend to speak of pros/cons of a brake on a fighting gun as this is not within my realm of
experience.
LR:
Sir,
You bring up valid issues, but what do you recommend to solve the issues you speak of? Is there an option that mitigates signature both visual and auditory (besides a suppressor), and also aids in controllability of the weapon or should one stick to a birdcage and drive on?
Good times,
Blake
Roguish Lawyer
06-05-2011, 12:25
What has this world of shooting come to? Brakes on 556 and piss on the fellow shooters. No realistic expectation of hidding a signature, no expectation of your shooting buddy shooting comfortably. Just so that you have even less felt recoil than is already felt on a 556.
Just as a quick warning, a flash suppressor actually increases the visual signature at night whenobserved with NVDs, even the cheap NVDs, and especailly with thermals.
My 2 cents and end rant. :munchin
Confession, and this will come as no surprise, but I had no idea what I was doing when I picked a brake. I was actually trying to comply with CA Assault Weapons rules which ban flash suppressors, and learned later I could have put on whatever I wanted (except a silencer).
What do you recommend on a 5.56?
MK262MOD1
06-05-2011, 14:44
Rick's point is that you really don't need a brake, which is to control recoil on a 5.56mm. They tend to be obnoxiously loud and don't really give you that great of a performance edge. They also create amazing fireballs and shock-waves. Which are annoying on the range and easy to see at night. (Rick if I am wrong correct me)
In your case with California it makes sense (for the legal reasons) but they just don't add a lot to the performance IMHO.
They have there uses, on super short barreled guns that need the increased back pressure or guns you are going to mount a suppressor on.
Other than that...
MK262M1 sends
MK262MOD1
06-05-2011, 14:46
Confession, and this will come as no surprise, but I had no idea what I was doing when I picked a brake. I was actually trying to comply with CA Assault Weapons rules which ban flash suppressors, and learned later I could have put on whatever I wanted (except a silencer).
What do you recommend on a 5.56?
What is your platform specs and what kind of shooting do you do?
Roguish Lawyer
06-05-2011, 14:54
What is your platform specs and what kind of shooting do you do?
Colt H-Bar Target Rifle (CA pre-ban) with MSTN-built upper receiver including LMT upper (1x7 barrel, M4 contour) with Larue 7.0 forend, LMT bolt carrier group, PRI Gas Buster charging handle, Troy rear sight, Larue EOTech mount, KAC sling mount and Dieter vert grip.
Photos here: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=165211&postcount=486
I just shoot at targets, not a professional. In theory, this might be useful when the Zombie Apocalypse comes.
MK262MOD1
06-05-2011, 16:30
Id roll with what you have. These eyes cant see (tiny screen)real well what is on there but it appears to be a shark gill style brake. Is that correct?
Roguish Lawyer
06-05-2011, 16:39
Id roll with what you have. These eyes cant see (tiny screen)real well what is on there but it appears to be a shark gill style brake. Is that correct?
I'm not at home right now, but I think this is what I have:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PRI-MSTN-QC-Brake-p/pri%20qc%20comp%2005-0089b.htm
frostfire
06-06-2011, 11:35
I'll second the Battle Comp recommendation. I tested one last summer when the guys sent it to me for T&E. A friend of mine and I did a night shoot with my wifes carbine (16" midlength) using M193, M855, Hornady T2 TAP and Q3131.
We utilized an AN/PVS-14 and had full moon conditions. The Battle Comp performed very well. Flash was probably a little better than that of the M16A2 birdcage. However, there was virutally no muzzle climb and follow up shots were very easy. I did controlled pairs and hammer pairs. I liked it enough that I kept it and paid for it.
I have recommended them to other AR users and all of them liked it. If I wasn't mounting a suppressor I would be using them on all the AR's.
Iraqgunz, did you use battlecomp for 7.62 platform as well? How was it?
All the promo vids show 5.56
Blake, did you get my PM?