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The Reaper
05-22-2004, 09:10
Saturday, May 22, 2004
By John R. Lott, Jr.
What is happening to the gun control movement?


This month, the Million Mom March in Washington drew an anemic showing of only 2,000 people, while this year, all of the Democratic presidential candidates” however unenthusiastically” spoke of Americans Second Amendment (search) right to own guns. These are just a few of the signs that the facts finally seem to be catching up to the movement. The future for the movement looks even worse.

Whether the subject is concealed handgun laws or bans on semi-automatic so-called assault weapons, gun control debates have been filled with apocalyptic claims about what will happen if gun control is not adopted. One common prediction is that laws allowing the carrying of a concealed weapon will result in crime waves, or permit holders shooting others. However, with 37 states now having right-to-carry laws, and another nine states letting some citizens carry, permit holders have continually shown themselves to be extremely law-abiding. It is becoming more and more difficult to attack those laws.

Disarray among gun controllers is becoming common, even on one cornerstone of the gun control movement, the semi-automatic gun ban. Take the statements made on National Public Radio by a representative of the Violence Policy Center just one week after the assault weapon extension was defeated in the Senate this March.

NPR described the VPC as "one of the more aggressive gun groups in Washington." Yet the VPC's representative claimed: "If the existing assault-weapons ban expires, I personally do not believe it will make one whit of difference one way or another in terms of our objective, which is reducing death and injury and getting a particularly lethal class of firearms off the streets. So if it doesn't pass, it doesn't pass."

The NPR reporter noted: "[the Violence Policy Center's representative] says that's all the [assault-weapons ban] brought about, minor changes in appearance that didn't alter the function of these weapons.

Yet, before the Senate vote the VPC had long claimed that it was a "myth" that "assault weapons merely look different. The NRA and the gun industry today portray assault weapons as misunderstood ugly ducklings, no different from other semi-automatic guns. But while the actions, or internal mechanisms, of all semi-automatic guns are similar, the actions of assault weapons are part of a broader design package. The 'ugly' looks of the TEC-9, AR-15, AK-47 and similar guns reflect this package of features designed to kill people efficiently."

So why the sudden disarray after the Senate defeat? Simply, gun-control groups' credibility is on the line and they are getting cold feet. With no academic research showing the assault weapons ban reduces crime, gun control groups realize that soon it will be obvious to everyone that their predicted horror stories about "assault weapons" were completely wrong.

Internationally, dramatic gun control victories in countries such as England, Australia, and Canada are also unraveling.

”Crime did not fall in England after handguns were banned in January 1997. Quite the contrary, crime rose sharply. Yet, serious violent crime rates from 1997 to 2002 averaged 29 percent higher than 1996; robbery was 24 percent higher; murders 27 percent higher. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned, the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.

”Australia has also seen its violent crime rates soar after its Port Arthur gun control measures in late 1996. Violent crime rates averaged 32 per cent higher in the six years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2002) than they did the year before the law in 1996. The same comparisons for armed robbery rates showed increases of 45 percent.

”The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the most recent survey done, shows that the violent crime rate in England and Australia was twice the rate in the US.

”Canada has not gone anywhere near as far as the United Kingdom or Australia. Nevertheless, their gun registration system is costing roughly a thousand times more than promised and has grown to be extremely unpopular, with only 17 percent of Canadians in a poll release this week supporting the system. Nor does the system seem to be providing any protection. The Canadian government recently admitted that they could not identify even a single violent crime that had been solved by registration.

Everyone wants to take guns away from criminals. The problem is that if the law-abiding citizens obey the laws and the criminals don't, the rules create sitting ducks who cannot defend themselves. While the debate is hardly over, gun control is just another example of government planning that hasn't lived up to its billing. And like other types of government planning, eventually its failures become too overwhelming to ignore.

John Lott, Jr., is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and is the author of The Bias Against Guns (Regnery 2004).

Roguish Lawyer
05-24-2004, 10:16
Thanks. Time for the pendulum to swing back.

Team Sergeant
05-24-2004, 10:22
An armed society is a polite society. Robert A. Heinlein

CPTAUSRET
05-24-2004, 10:58
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
An armed society is a polite society. Robert A. Heinlein


I subscribe to that theory.

Terry

Sacamuelas
05-24-2004, 11:07
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
An armed society is a polite society. Robert A. Heinlein


and one in which there are fewer stray dogs running around in parks terrorizing children. :D

Roguish Lawyer
05-24-2004, 11:16
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
and one in which there are fewer stray dogs running around in parks terrorizing children. :D

and in which you can plate as much bling-bling onto your firearm as you damn well please!

Air.177
05-24-2004, 11:58
I believe it was CCR who said,"There's a calm before the Storm" Just because these policies are showing their ineffectiveness and losing popular support does not mean that they are gone forever.

Just My .02

echoes
05-25-2004, 16:58
The Reaper
NPR described the VPC as "one of the more aggressive gun groups in Washington." Yet the VPC's representative claimed: “If the existing assault-weapons ban expires, I personally do not believe it will make one whit of difference one way or another in terms of our objective...
which is reducing death and injury and getting a particularly lethal class of firearms off the streets. So if it doesn’t pass, it doesn’t pass.”

What is happening to our Gun Control Movement? Don't ask This Guy!!! :D
I currently travel up and down 'ol Route 66 to get to where I live, and my family. I now travel this road regularly, and today, there was a very mean looking Harley with a man on it, next to my car.

Attached to the back of His bike was a very large American Flag, and upon closer inspection, a VFW insignia, and other "War" patches, on a very worn looking black leather jacket.
When we came to a stoplight on the highway, He was in the next lane. I rolled down my window, and gave a huge thumbs up! The man was ponytailed, with goggles, and a little grey hair.
But, He smiled back. I yelled, "thank You for Your service"...and He shrugged, and said, "thanks for appreciating it!"

I told Him He looked Great, and the light turned green. He did not "rev the engine"... instead just carried on, at the speed limit.

Point is, I am sure He might have been armed, He had all the luggage of a long journey, but God Bless 'em, I was glad to know that He might have been "packin"!

Holly

It looked something like this:

Karl.Masters
03-22-2007, 10:33
Fredricksburg and Roanoke VA local papers have been publishing the list of concealed carry permit holders on the internet. Evidently, the posted listing included names of CC permit holders from the entire state of VA before it was taken down due to complaints.

Has anyone else seen this kind of tactic in their state? I do not see how the public interest is served by this.

Karl

The Free-Lance Star
Date published: 3/20/2007

Should concealed-gun information be public?

State to consider access to concealed weapon permits
BY CHELYEN DAVIS

RICHMOND--A state committee will study whether concealed weapon permit information should remain public record after a Roanoke newspaper ignited controversy by posting on the Internet a list of permit holders.

The Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Committee yesterday decided to appoint a subcommittee to investigate the issue over the next few months.

The controversy started just last week when the Roanoke Times published, on its Web site, a list of all concealed-weapon permit holders in the state.

The list came from the state police, which is required by law to maintain that list, but the information is also subject to the Freedom of Information Act and is public record.

After numerous furious e-mails and phone calls from the public, the Roanoke Times took the list off its Web site. But Sen. Edd Houck, D-Spotsylvania County, said he was already getting calls and e-mails, particularly from other state legislators, who want to consider changing the law.


"There's a clash here between personal, private information and the public's right to know," Houck said after the FOIA council meeting yesterday. "It's a hot topic right now and a lot of people are very anxious about it. It's opened up all types of other issues."

Few people came to speak at the council's meeting yesterday, although Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, spoke and said he has requested an opinion from the attorney general on the issue.

Jim Kadison of the Virginia Citizens Defense League--a gun-rights organization--said his group is concerned about "possible abuse" of the list. He suggested creating a list of permit-holders for police and then a separate, public one that permit holders could opt off of.

Houck, who chairs the council, said he will also chair the subcommittee that will study this issue. He is worried that the issue may open the door to those who would like to see Virginia eliminate its permit requirement for a concealed weapon altogether, and said he wants to keep the focus on the public information issue.

However, Houck said, he also thinks consistency is important, and he pointed out that the rules governing the openness of concealed carry permits is no different than the rules governing other state permits--like doctor's licenses.


The Free Lance-Star periodically publishes the names of Fredericksburg area permit holders when the permits are issued.

The entire FOIA council will meet again in June.

Chelyen Davis: 804/782-9362
Email: cdavis@freelancestar.com

82ndtrooper
03-22-2007, 10:48
As if any of this comes as any surprise to those of us that have alway's upheld the notion that the crime is not about guns, it's about crime and deeper social ills that cause crime and the violence that ensues with that crime.

When Florida adopted the "Castle Doctrine" the Brady's staged one of most pathetic campaigns to date in the gun control lobby. They planted gun control supporters at the airports handing our flyers that warned tourists about the new law calling it the "Shoot first law" "Ask questions later" Florida quickly campaigned against the Brady bunch with a clear and precise definition of the law arguing that "Residents of florida now have the ability to defend themselves with deadly force without the need to retreat first" And, that civil law suits were no longer judicial practice for those injured while in the act of committing a felony and or with the use of deadly force described very clearly and plainly to the ordinary citizen.

The democrats do not want to touch the 2nd Amendment, but rather cut a thousand cuts to infringe the right to keep and bear arms like a chinese torture. A thousand cuts is the same as one big chop to the neck in the end.

They'll learn the hard way, and when SCOTUS upholds the 2nd Amendment as as an individual right across the board, the democrats will have little other than health care and the war to continue their ratty rediculous gun control measures.

jatx
03-22-2007, 10:52
An armed society is a polite society. Robert A. Heinlein


Agreed. Wasn't that from RAH's Friday? :)

Rogue
03-22-2007, 10:53
In Ohio, the Cleveland Plain Dealer prints a monthly list which details the Full Name and age of all individuals who obtained permits that month. This has been going on for the past three years. Hopefully this practice will taper off due to a new state law making it much harder for the media to get these records. More on this subject can be viewed on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website www.ohioccw.org.

Karl.Masters
03-22-2007, 11:17
rogue8261,

Thanks for that link-specifically mentions the issues of harassment of law abiding citizens, the "shopping list" of where to steal weapons factor, and abuse of privacy rights by the media. All of great concern. In VA, the state police maintain the list and they can do all the demographic analysis they want. It's the release of individual information to the media and the privacy issue around publication of this information that bothers me.

Karl

Team Sergeant
03-22-2007, 11:20
Agreed. Wasn't that from RAH's Friday? :)

Not sure where he wrote it but yes, it was RAH.

Razor
03-22-2007, 11:33
Well then, I guess those papers should also print the names and addresses of everyone with HIV and AIDS in the area, as they can be just as deadly to the unknowing in the end (no pun intended). Privacy issues? P'shaw, its for the 'public good'.

rubberneck
03-22-2007, 11:48
Divorces are a matter of public record shouldn't they publish a list of all the divorces filed in the state each month?

It's not really funny but I get the feeling that if a conservative State Rep. brought a bill before the Ohio statehouse that would require that all convicted sex offenders had to have their names, picture, address, car make, model and license plate number printed monthly I am sure that the Plains Dealer would express "grave reservations" about doing so.

I guess what goes around comes around. In their politically motivated actions the Plains Dealer have exposed themselves for who they really are. No wonder why their circulation is dropping annually. I get the feeling that most reporters can no long make a distinction between reporting the news and creating it. Newspapers are no longer the reporters of facts but advocacy groups pretending to not have a point of view. They have gotten away with it for a while but it is finally catching up to them.

Karl.Masters
03-22-2007, 11:57
Well then, I guess those papers should also print the names and addresses of everyone with HIV and AIDS in the area, as they can be just as deadly to the unknowing in the end (no pun intended). Privacy issues? P'shaw, its for the 'public good'.

Razor,

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/trejbal/wb/108160

Here's what Christian Trejbal at the Roanoke Times did with the info he got in VA:

Editor's note: The database has been removed. Read the statement.

Today is the start of Sunshine Week, the annual week in which we reflect on the importance of open government and public records. To mark the occasion, I want to take you on an excursion into freedom of information land. We're going to find out who in the New River Valley has a concealed handgun permit.

I can hear the shocked indignation of gun-toters already: It's nobody's business but mine if I want to pack heat.

Au contraire. Because the government handles the permitting, it is everyone's business.

There are good reasons the records are open to public scrutiny. People might like to know if their neighbors carry. Parents might like to know if a member of the car pool has a pistol in the glove box. Employers might like to know if employees are bringing weapons to the office.

And all Virginians have a stake in checking that their government is not making mistakes, for example, by issuing permits to convicted felons. Open records allow the media or any private citizen to check.

This is not about being for or against guns. There are plenty of reasons people choose to carry weapons: fear of a violent ex-lover, concern about criminals or worry that the king of England might try to get into your house. There are plenty of reasons to question the wisdom of widespread gun ownership, too.

But that's a debate for another time.

To illustrate the open government process, I set out to acquire permit lists for the New River Valley.

I first called the local circuit court clerks charged with overseeing permitting. They were helpful, as far as they could be.

Only Radford and Floyd County said they could produce a list. Giles County maintains an unofficial list but could not produce an official one. Montgomery and Pulaski counties had squat. The best they could do is determine if a specific individual had a permit.

None of that conflicts with the law. The records must be available but not necessarily in the format citizens want.

Fortunately, one of the clerks tipped me off to another avenue. The state police, she thought, maintained a master list.

I called Richmond and found out that yes, they did have a statewide list. Bingo!

Then another lesson of open government hit. A copy would cost more than $100.

Any Virginian can show up at a government office and request a public document. If it is something simple such as a council agenda, officials usually gladly duplicate it, maybe charging a few cents for the photocopy.

If it is something more complicated, government agencies may charge for the time and effort to prepare the records. In the case of concealed handgun permits, state police need to weed through them to cut out some personal data, which takes staff time.

A state that eagerly puts sex offender data online complete with an interactive map could easily do the same with gun permits, but it does not.

I bit the bullet and placed my order, saving the paper a few bucks by taking a Jan. 18 list officials had recently prepared for someone else.

The compact disc arrived last week. Names, addresses, issue and expiration dates.

About 2 percent of Virginians, 135,789 of us, have concealed handgun permits. In the New River Valley, 3,826 people have them, a slightly higher rate than in the rest of the state.

I immediately started checking some names. Virginia Tech football coach Frank Beamer, no permit. Pulaski County Supervisor Dean Pratt, packing. Radford University President Penelope Kyle, no permit. Giles County Supervisor Paul "Chappy" Baker, packing.

Some of the names proved tricky. Dana Dwayne Munsey of Pembroke has a permit. Is that Mayor Munsey? Standoffish town officials wouldn't provide a middle name or address for confirmation, and the listed phone number is disconnected.

The list sports a dismayingly large number of typos for an official registry -- four different spellings of "Christiansburg," for example.

Local celebrities generally don't carry, but at least a half dozen elected officials do. I'll leave it to readers to figure out which ones so you can avoid annoying them at meetings.

As a Sunshine Week gift, The Roanoke Times has placed the entire database, mistakes and all, online at www.roanoke.com/gunpermits. You can search to find out if neighbors, carpool partners, elected officials or anyone else has permission to carry a gun.

Open government laws arose from distrust of government. They guarantee citizens can watch what government does in their names, including issuing gun permits.

Christian Trejbal is an editorial writer for The Roanoke Times based in the New River Valley bureau in Christiansburg.

The Reaper
03-22-2007, 12:32
I want to know if my daughter's boyfriend has a disease. Will Mr. Trejbal publish a list of those trreated at county facilities?

How about a criminal records check on the young man? Is that not public record? Have you ever been arrested, Mr. Trejbal? Convicted? Of what and when?

What about a quick reference of all sex offenders in his area? Will he print that as well? See, my pistol needs an operator to make it work. The sex offender has all of his equipment needed except for a victim. Which is the greater threat?

Let's pull up the stats for people wrongfully shot by a CCW holder and plot it against the number of editorial writers who are arrested for crimes? Fair enough?

What about divorce records? Tell me all of the juicy details, Mr. Trejbal. I might discover that a friend who claims to be single is not.

Drug or alcohol offenses? I have a right to know. Let's mark their houses on a map, shall we?

Domestic violence locations and the personnel involved? Where is that list?

How about a quick list of all of the addresses of young people getting driver's licenses? That should be public knowledge as well. Those kids kill a lot more people every year than CCW holders.

Who has been convicted of DUIs? They are more of a threat to me that a firearm. Now that would be a real public service.

Name changes? That is a public record as well.

How about a list of all media personnel, and their personal data, since the First Amendment comes before the Second. Where does your editor live? Does he have kids? Where do they go to school?

How about sex crime victims? I pay for the trial, I have a right to know who is making these allegations, don't I, Christian?

Hey, what about addresses of the recently deceased? I am curious about where they might have lived, and if they have a spouse that I might need to know more about.

Thanks to Mr. Trejbal, good to know that Big Brother is being assisted in Roanoke by "The Roanoke Times".

Appreciate it, Mr. Trejbal. If that is your real name. I wonder what we can find out about you?

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/breaking/wb/108505

Please direct any comments (polite of course) to:

Christian R. Trejbal
675 School Ln.
Christiansburg, VA 24073
christian.trejbal@roanoke.com
ctrejbal@bendbulletin.com
541-617-7837
540-381-1645

Born: 9/15/1970

http://maps.google.com/?q=675+School+Ln,+Christiansburg,+VA+24073&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.188298,96.328125&ie=UTF8&z=16&om=1&iwloc=addr

He just bought the house on School Lane for $115,000.

1 008764 497- 15 27,28 TREJBAL CHRISTIAN J 675 SCHOOL LN CHRISTIANSBURG 675 SCHOOL LN CHRISTIANSBURG VA 24073 SPRADLIN ADD LOTS 27,28 SPRADLIN ADDITION 27,28 0859-0225 2006 008321 $25500 $64200 $89700 $0 CS R3 CR060400 13-JUL-06 $116000 1.5 1948 6 3 1 812 1314 TREJBAL SCHOOL 116000 [polygon] 26226

Mr Trejbal is unmarried, but lives with another man, according to the records. I would assume thast he is unarmed, since the records show no indication of a CCW. Maybe his "roommate" has one.

This is all public records as well, and you have a right to know this.

TR

82ndtrooper
03-22-2007, 12:57
I want to know if my daughter's boyfriend has a disease. Will Mr. Trejbal publish a list of those trreated at county facilities?

How about a criminal records check on the young man? Is that not publidc record? Have you ever been arrested, Mr. Trejbal? Convicted? Of what and when?

What about a quick reference of all sex offenders in his area? Will he print that as well? See, my pistol needs an operator to make it work. The sex offender has all of his equipment needed except for a victim.

What about divorce records? Tell me all of the juicy details, Mr. Trejbal. I might discover that a friend who claims to be single is not.

How about a quick list of all of the addresses of young people getting driver's licenses? That should be public knowledge as well. Those kids kill a lot more people every year than CCW owners.

Who has been convicted of DUIs? They are more of a threat to me that a firearm. Now that would be a real public service.

Name changes? That is a public record as well.

How about sex crime victims? I pay for the trial, I have a right to know who is making these allegations, don't I, Christian?

Hey, what about addresses of the recently deceased? I am curious about where they might have lived, and if they have a spouse that I might need to know more about.

Thanks to Mr. Trejbal, Big Brother is being assisted in Roanoke by "The Roanoke Times".

Appreciate it, Mr. Trejbal. If that is your real name. I wonder what we can find out about you?

http://maps.google.com/?q=675+School+Ln,+Christiansburg,+VA+24073&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.188298,96.328125&ie=UTF8&z=16&om=1&iwloc=addr

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/breaking/wb/108505

Born: 9/15/1970

He just bought the house for $115,000

1 008764 497- 15 27,28 TREJBAL CHRISTIAN J 675 SCHOOL LN CHRISTIANSBURG 675 SCHOOL LN CHRISTIANSBURG VA 24073 SPRADLIN ADD LOTS 27,28 SPRADLIN ADDITION 27,28 0859-0225 2006 008321 $25500 $64200 $89700 $0 CS R3 CR060400 13-JUL-06 $116000 1.5 1948 6 3 1 812 1314 TREJBAL SCHOOL 116000 [polygon] 26226

Mr Trejbal is unmarried, but lives with another man, according to the records. I would assume thast he is unarmed, since the records show no indication of a CCW. Maybe his roommate has one.

Please direct any comments (polite of course) to:

Christian R Trejbal
675 School Ln.
Christiansburg, VA 24073
christian.trejbal@roanoke.com
ctrejbal@bendbulletin.com
541-617-7837
540-381-1645

This is all public records as well, and you have a right to know this.

TR


Regulation being the key component to carrying concealed permits. Here in Kentucky it's perfectly legal to open carry without a permit to carry concealed. for a couple of years I actually did carry openly, but not without being detained on three occassions by the local PD and one time disarmed and held in cuffs till the situation was resolved by the Chief of Police of the City. Which would the govenment, be it state or local prefer ? That I carry openly or concealed ? Which is cause for more concern ? Openly or concealed ? The CCW permit get's the state it's revenue, but do the local PD know that when I'm standing next to them at the local donut shop that I'm sporting an H&K USP .45 ACP with two extra mags under my jacket ? Which would they prefer ?

Since we now know that Mr. Trejbal lives with another man we can safely assume he's smoking sausage and cleaning his rectal cavity with more than toilet paper. How's it feel Mr. Trejbal to have your records in the public ? Mr. Trejbal your house cost a mere $115,000 can you not afford more, or are both you and your live in pool boy still looking through the rose colored glasses of the government to assist both you and your pool boy to gain access to benefits that married couples have under legal marriage.

one-zero
03-22-2007, 12:58
He was getting his ass hammered pretty good on their msg board...they started getting selective on posts they are allowing though - specifically any of the publically available info on the Asstard who ran the article...

Team Sergeant
03-22-2007, 13:29
He was getting his ass hammered pretty good on their msg board...they started getting selective on posts they are allowing though - specifically any of the publically available info on the Asstard who ran the article...

This moron is being hammered all over the internet. If you run just his address (no name) on a google search you get 685 returns.

Stupid is as stupid does.

sf11b_p
03-22-2007, 13:42
LMAO.

No bomb at editorial writer's home

By Donna Alvis-Banks and Paul Dellinger

roanoke.com/news/nrv/breaking/wb/108505

Seems a DHL customer package was delivered and prompted a frightened editor to call the bomb squad. The neighbors saw the DHL truck deliver the box. Self initiated for sympathy points? The paper has ceased posting the database.

The column ran Sunday, and on monday "The Roanoke Times removed the database from its Web site Monday afternoon due to concern that it might include names that should not have been made public, president and publisher Debbie Meade said." The bomb article was posted Tuesday.

82ndtrooper
03-22-2007, 13:53
You'll love this ! A fan site just for Christian.

HERE:

http://christiantrejbalfan.blogspot.com/

Karl.Masters
03-22-2007, 14:12
I would assume thast he is unarmed, since the records show no indication of a CCW. TR


Ooops. Christian may want to stop by the courthouse and pick up a CC permit application....sooner rather than later.....what with all those little reds dots on his COM and the ARCLIGHT inbound and all. TR-very nicely done-

Karl

Edit to add: Sorry, forgot. Sheep don't carry concealed weapons.

TF Kilo
03-22-2007, 16:33
:) This is why I like knowing you guys. Humorous, insightful, intelligent and smattered with important points like a 00 buck pattern from an 870.

Sionnach
03-23-2007, 12:04
Brilliant, TR.

echoes
03-23-2007, 15:00
This moron is being hammered all over the internet. If you run just his address (no name) on a google search you get 685 returns.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Sir, well said!!!

If someone like this ass-clown even peeked out around here, well, we in the South know what to do! :mad: On fire...and running!

Holly