View Full Version : Honor Killing in the US
The Reaper
07-07-2008, 09:29
Welcome, sharia law to the US.:rolleyes:
Watch for more of this in the future, as we applaud multi-culturalism.
I hope he gets the redneck jury and the death penalty, or at least a loving cellmate.
TR
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,377044,00.html
Police Say Georgia Man Killed Own Daughter to Protect Family Honor
Monday, July 07, 2008
Chaudhry Rashad accused of killing his own daughter for dishonoring family.
A Georgia man will appear in court Monday on charges he killed his own daughter for disgracing the family.
Police said 54-year-old Chaudhry Rashad was so angered that his daughter, Sandela Kanwal, planned to divorce her arranged-marriage husband that Rashad killed her after a heated argument at the family's home, FOX News affiliate MyFoxAtlanta reported.
Rashad was taken to the Clayton County jail where he reportedly confessed to strangling his 25-year-old daughter.
The news shocked neighbors and family friends.
"The family is very upset and stressed," said Shahid Malik of the Pakistani American Community of Atlanta. Malik told MyFoxAtlanta that he met with the family Sunday and said they were all traumatized.
Police said Kanwal hadn't seen her husband, who lives in Chicago, for months.
I see that the family is "upset", "stressed" and "traumatized". How about furious, incensed, resentful, etc?:mad: Am I missing something?
Astraeus
07-07-2008, 11:21
Welcome, sharia law to the US.:rolleyes:
Hey guess what? :rolleyes: Proportionally there is a higher per-capita rate of honors killings among Jordanian Christians than by the Muslim population. It's a tribal not a Sharia thing. Yes, religion, including a skewed interpretation of Sharia plays a part in "justifying" the practice, but it sure as hell isn't the "causal variable." Being less educated and coming from a more rural area is at least strongly correlated with a higher incidence of the practice. It's a tribal practice that predates Islam, and I don't know about other countries in the region but in Jordan it is today just as big a problem among the 6% Christian population than the 93% Muslim population. This is according to a conversation I had in person with the very secular and award winning investigative journalist Rana Husseini, a Jordanian women's rights activist, as well as a rather comprehensive study published in 2006 by the authors of the book "Claiming Jordan's Honor."
rubberneck
07-07-2008, 11:27
Unlike some countries that practice Sharia I doubt he is going to be happy with the legal outcome. He is mistaken if he thinks that he will be cut any slack because that is the way they do things in Pakistan. I am sure that the good people of Georgia will make that point painfully clear.
Hey guess what? :rolleyes: Proportionally there is a higher per-capita rate of honors killings among Jordanian Christians than by the Muslim population. It's a tribal not a Sharia thing.......
Could you give us the figures please for the 6% Jordanian Christians vs 93% Muslim population for Honor Killings?
rubberneck
07-07-2008, 12:36
This is according to a conversation I had in person with the very secular and award winning investigative journalist Rana Husseini, a Jordanian women's rights activist, as well as a rather comprehensive study published in 2006 by the authors of the book "Claiming Jordan's Honor."
I don't doubt that Ms. Husseini is an award winning woman's rights activist but her findings are worthless absent reliable data. Here in the states local law enforcement report their annual crime stats to the FBI for their inclusion in Uniform Crime Reports. That hard data is drawn from more than 10,000 local agencies and allow criminologists to observe trends in crime.
I doubt that Jordan has as system as comprehensive and accurate as the UCR. If I were a betting man I would bet that less than 20% of the crimes committed in any given year in Jordan get reported to the government, and that number probably drops off significantly for crimes involving honor. Since some of the tribes view honor killing as a natural right I doubt very much that they will discuss it openly and honestly with a female activist.
She can draw whatever conclusions she likes it doesn't mean that they reflect reality.
The Reaper
07-07-2008, 12:42
Hey guess what? :rolleyes: Proportionally there is a higher per-capita rate of honors killings among Jordanian Christians than by the Muslim population. It's a tribal not a Sharia thing. Yes, religion, including a skewed interpretation of Sharia plays a part in "justifying" the practice, but it sure as hell isn't the "causal variable." Being less educated and coming from a more rural area is at least strongly correlated with a higher incidence of the practice. It's a tribal practice that predates Islam, and I don't know about other countries in the region but in Jordan it is today just as big a problem among the 6% Christian population than the 93% Muslim population. This is according to a conversation I had in person with the very secular and award winning investigative journalist Rana Husseini, a Jordanian women's rights activist, as well as a rather comprehensive study published in 2006 by the authors of the book "Claiming Jordan's Honor."
Hey, guess what?:rolleyes:
He didn't kill her in Jordan, he killed her in the USA.
I don't recall a lot of American Christian (or atheist, or Jewish, or Buddist, or Hindu, or Confucianist) fathers killing their daughters lately when they wanted to get divorced out of an arranged marriage. Frankly, that practice needs to be evaluated as well.
If that is accepted practice among American Muslim fathers, maybe we don't need any more of them here, or the ones who slay their daughters need to shut up, sit down, and have the ride of their lives on Old Sparky.
TR
and I don't know about other countries in the region but in Jordan it is today just as big a problem among the 6% Christian population than the 93% Muslim population.
OK...I have to extend my neck a little and call B.S. on the above statistic.
Peregrino
07-07-2008, 13:01
"Sparky" is too civilized. If they want to adhere to an Islamist/tribal more from the Dark Ages, maybe we should re-institute public executions - and use their methods; e.g. hanging or beheading.
cornelyj
07-07-2008, 13:05
Not to be rude but why is this even a conversation?
He killed his daughter and admitted to it.
Sounds like murder to me in our county no matter what your beliefs.
I'm with TR yet again on this one... I hear ole' sparky calling.
Gas is 4 bucks a gallon... why waste the energy to fire up ole' sparky...
Hang him, its cheaper, better yet, if he wants to "live his culture" maybe the executioner should just cut his damn head off.
savages
Cannot even begin to imagine what her thoughts were, in her last moments.
I hope that Sandela is in a more peaceful place now.
How horrible.:(
Holly
The Reaper
07-07-2008, 14:30
"Sparky" is too civilized. If they want to adhere to an Islamist/tribal more from the Dark Ages, maybe we should re-institute public executions - and use their methods; e.g. hanging or beheading.
I am with you, and they are screwing with the people whose ancestors invented the Inquisition, but IIRC, the Constitution prohibits "cruel and unusual" punishment, and the Courts move ever closer to denying any means of execution.
My personal belief is that the murderer should die at least as horrible a death as the victim.
Breaking on the rack, or the wheel, or flaying, or the press, or being fed to swine, any one of a number of procedures comes to mind. I want it horrific enough that the next jackass who thinks about killing his own daughter because of "honor" thinks twice about it.
At least, hanging has the potential to go wrong and be pretty gruesome, as well as being the traditional means of executing criminals and others not worthy of the blade or a bullet. Electrocution has its moments as well.
Unfortunately, we lack the stones for it today.
TR
I was watching this report on Fox a few moments ago. I'm all for the punishment fitting the crime. This bastard should hang...but since he probably won't I hope the judge gives the max sentence possible.
incommin
07-07-2008, 18:20
I once read of a method the Turks used. A one inch diameter iron rod was driven into the ground with about 40 inches of it exposed. The metal rod was greased with fat, the victim was picked up and his butt slipped down on the metal shaft. The rod was not long enough to quickly kill. The victim got to tip toe around in circles until he became tired. Once he could no longer stand, the rod damaged internal organs and the individual bleed to death. Sounds like a winner to me......
as well as a rather comprehensive study published in 2006 by the authors of the book "Claiming Jordan's Honor."
I was unable to find the text on Amazon. A search of an academic library failed to produce results. A search of the Library of Congress failed to produce results. Google did not produce any book results. Are you sure of the title?
As for the perp, I rather like the idea of declaring him "outlaw" - and hence, no longer protected by any aspect of the law. Anyone can do anything to him with no resultant legal penalty.
Then put him in prison. Among the general population.
Astraeus
07-07-2008, 19:17
Reaper, yes he killed her in the USA. You insinuated that honor killings are the result of Sharia law. That's incorrect. That was my point. Might as well understand the causes of honor killings before you welcome Sharia law to the U.S.
Pete, I don't own a copy of "Claiming Jordan's Honor," I've read it. If you want you could probably find a copy on Amazon. Yes, data for honors crimes are not ever going to be as accurate as the Uniform Crime Reports. However, some, including Husseini aggressively investigate on their own, to do their best to keep a yearly tally. By agressively investigate, I mean that people in the past have tried to kill her for the work she does. I talked with her in March of 2007, so far that year there had been 6 honors killings by Muslim families, 3 by Christian families since January. My point was that it's not a Sharia thing, it's a tribal thing, and is not very suprising If you consider how extremely conservativly tribal many of the Middle Eastern Christian families are. If you can get a copy of "Claiming Jordan's Honor" it is a very interesting, if very depressing read.
All of that said, I hope that Rashad is soon in a world of pain.
longrange1947
07-07-2008, 19:35
............................ Might as well understand the causes of honor killings before you welcome Sharia law to the U.S. .............................
Why in the hell would we "welcome Sharia law". WE have a constitution that forbids that law. "Something" to do with an official religion, and that is the basis for Sharia law.
That bastard needs to burn now, and again in hell.
He will, of course, get a snake oil lawyer, (no offense RL and other "real lawyers") and claim that he "lost his mind temporarily" due to "Tradition and Honor". He will find a sympathetic audience who will completely forget the real victim and he will become the victim of intolerance and lack of multi-culturalism in the US.
CAIR will ride to the rescue and all the PC idiots will band together and make him a the cause of the moment. The Kennedys and Kerrys will jump on the band wagon as will Obama.
Dam I hope I am wrong.
Team Sergeant
07-07-2008, 19:40
Reaper, yes he killed her in the USA. You insinuated that honor killings are the result of Sharia law. That's incorrect. That was my point. Might as well understand the causes of honor killings before you welcome Sharia law to the U.S.
I've little doubt "honor killings" are a tribal and muslim in nature. There’s only one "tribe" that commits honor killings and one religion that rationalizes, or justifies those type of killings, islam. And while you may not find honor killing in the quran the morons that read it are the ones doing 99% of the honor killings. Coincidence or happenstance, I think not.
You can quote all the sources, books and whatever you like, you would be on the short end of the argument.
Team Sergeant
Throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe, young Muslim women are being targeted for violence. Lest it be thought hate crimes are to blame, it is, in fact, their own relatives who are the perpetrators. So-called honor killings, whereby a Muslim male family member, typically the father, murders his daughter in order to defend the family's honor, is a growing problem.
While statistics are notoriously hard to come by due to the private nature of such crimes and the fact that very few are reported, the United Nations Population Fund approximates that as many as 5,000 women are murdered in this manner each year worldwide. Undoubtedly that's a low estimate, as reports from Turkey, Jordan, Pakistan and the Palestinian territories, among other locales, are filtering in at an alarming rate. Add to the list Germany, Sweden, other parts of Europe, the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United States, and it's clear that young Muslim women in the West are becoming increasingly vulnerable.
While fathers are commonly responsible for honor killings, they often act in concert with their daughters' brothers, uncles, and even female relatives. For infringements upon a Muslim daughter's "honor" constitute the greatest humiliation possible to the religious and tribal tradition from which many such immigrant families emerged. Acts that demand "punishment" include refusing to wear a hijab (or headscarf), having non-Muslim boyfriends or male friends of any origin, being sexually active, rejecting arranged marriages, aggressively seeking employment and education, and, more than anything else, attempting to assimilate into Western culture.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/01/23/cstillwell.DTL
What probably irritate me more is that modern Westerners who say they stand up for "Women's" right are mute on this issue. This so-called "honor killing" isn't half of the barbarity that is inflicted on women. To me this is just cause to interfere with their barbaric practices and Liberate the women in those countries. I would love to participate in this noble deed.
My personal belief is that the murderer should die at least as horrible a death as the victim.
Breaking on the rack, or the wheel, or flaying, or the press, or being fed to swine, any one of a number of procedures comes to mind. I want it horrific enough that the next jackass who thinks about killing his own daughter because of "honor" thinks twice about it.
At least, hanging has the potential to go wrong and be pretty gruesome, as well as being the traditional means of executing criminals and others not worthy of the blade or a bullet. Electrocution has its moments as well.
Unfortunately, we lack the stones for it today.
TR
Good idea TR lets follow Sharia law and pound him into the ground and stone him to death.
Reaper, yes he killed her in the USA. You insinuated that honor killings are the result of Sharia law. That's incorrect. That was my point. Might as well understand the causes of honor killings before you welcome Sharia law to the U.S.
Pete, I don't own a copy of "Claiming Jordan's Honor," I've read it. If you want you could probably find a copy on Amazon. Yes, data for honors crimes are not ever going to be as accurate as the Uniform Crime Reports. However, some, including Husseini aggressively investigate on their own, to do their best to keep a yearly tally. By agressively investigate, I mean that people in the past have tried to kill her for the work she does. I talked with her in March of 2007, so far that year there had been 6 honors killings by Muslim families, 3 by Christian families since January. My point was that it's not a Sharia thing, it's a tribal thing, and is not very suprising If you consider how extremely conservativly tribal many of the Middle Eastern Christian families are. If you can get a copy of "Claiming Jordan's Honor" it is a very interesting, if very depressing read.
All of that said, I hope that Rashad is soon in a world of pain.
Young Student
Yes Christan's have Idiots also but you single source (Jordan and this book) are very narrow in scope of this problem. As a person that has traveled to over 52 countries throughout the world over many years I can tell you the predominance of all reported Honor Killings have been linked to the Muslim faith and Sharia Law. As everyone knows the majority are never reported as they are committed in rural remote backward countries and they all accept it. There will never be good stats on it. Human Rights watch and many Women Advocacy groups around the world will support the fact that the majority of these killings are Muslim not Christan/Hindu/etc. Do a little research and you will find almost all reported in the last 2 years my the media are from Pakistan/Afghanistan/Yemen. There has been 2 in England in the last 12 months (Pakistani decent) and now this one in the us from (?) Pakistan. I know when you are young and idealistic and studying in the university, everything looks like roses but the reality is out in the REAL WORLD there are a lot of ugly people and things going on and we all can not sing CumByYaaa.
There are good Muslims out there but there are a lot of Barbaric Idiots that can not advance their beliefs and culture past the 3rd century. Those are the ones that need to be dealt with so the rest of the world can move on in peace and young women do not have to be afraid that some Male in their will get embarrassed and kill them in the name of their Honor. Hell if I lived by their standards all 3 of my kids would be dead and that is just stupid.
Red Flag 1
07-08-2008, 08:01
I once read of a method the Turks used. A one inch diameter iron rod was driven into the ground with about 40 inches of it exposed. The metal rod was greased with fat, the victim was picked up and his butt slipped down on the metal shaft. The rod was not long enough to quickly kill. The victim got to tip toe around in circles until he became tired. Once he could no longer stand, the rod damaged internal organs and the individual bleed to death. Sounds like a winner to me......
Shades of Vlad The Impaler!!
Like the idea though.
RF 1
"the next jackass who thinks about killing his own daughter because of "honor" thinks twice about it."
I agree with this premise completely. The DA must make an example out of this bastard and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, and then some.
Guys,
We've been dealing with one of these matters since late 2007/early 2008 here in Texas. The father--who is responsible for the killing of his two daughters--has gone underground among the Muslim community and has yet to be found, but local clerics have denounced his actions. There is a profound difference between the first and second generation Muslims here in the area. Welcome to America...where you can practice your religious beliefs with greater freedom than you can in your country of origin...as long as you obey our secular laws and do not infringe upon the 'rights' of our citizens.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/011208dnmethonorkillings.224909b.html
The leader of an Irving mosque denounced honor killings Friday, saying they have no place in Islam.
Imam Zia Sheikh's comments came after speculation that two teenage sisters were victims of such a killing. Sarah and Amina Said were found shot to death in a taxi in Irving on New Year's Day.
The girls' father, Egyptian-born cab driver Yaser Said, is wanted in connection with the deaths. He reportedly was troubled by his daughters' relationships with boys.
An honor killing is generally defined as one in which a man kills a female relative who is believed to have shamed their family.
The deaths of the Said sisters are tragic, the imam said Friday, but religion should not be tied to the slayings.
"Murdering one's own children is not permitted at all in Islam," the imam told hundreds of worshippers during a prayer service at the Islamic Center of Irving. "There is no precedent for it. ... That is not the way we deal with children that we are having difficulty with."
We'll see how it all shakes out and my guess is the father has since left the country.
Richard :munchin
Dominus_Potior
07-08-2008, 08:26
I once read of a method the Turks used. A one inch diameter iron rod was driven into the ground with about 40 inches of it exposed. The metal rod was greased with fat, the victim was picked up and his butt slipped down on the metal shaft. The rod was not long enough to quickly kill. The victim got to tip toe around in circles until he became tired. Once he could no longer stand, the rod damaged internal organs and the individual bleed to death. Sounds like a winner to me......
Wow. I'm all for the punishment fitting the crime. I think that might be a little bit of an overkill.
...but since he probably won't I hope the judge gives the max sentence possible.
With the way the courts have ruled lately, that may end up being a 30-day suspended sentence.
"You insinuated that honor killings are the result of Sharia law. That's incorrect. That was my point. Might as well understand the causes of honor killings before you welcome Sharia law to the U.S."
No offense Astraeus, but I too am in an International Studies degree program and most, if not all, of my "education" has had a pro Islam bias because that's what a liberal education includes these days. Those of us who are college students need to apply a critical analysis to any book/lecture we receive on current events.
As to whether or not honor killings are a tribal custom or sharia law, I think we all understand that it is a practice that comes from a certain culture of the world that the West needs to reject at all costs. I would be careful defending Islam, because I cannot imagine Islam ever defending you. You can call it sharia or you can call it Donald Duck but i know the problem when i see it.
Lastly, there are people on this site that seem to have more real world training/experience with the culture than you or I will get from a book that was assigned in an International Relations class. I'm not trying to be an A**hole, but I respectfully disagree with your position in this discussion.
JW
CPTAUSRET
07-08-2008, 12:10
"You insinuated that honor killings are the result of Sharia law. That's incorrect. That was my point. Might as well understand the causes of honor killings before you welcome Sharia law to the U.S."
No offense Astraeus, but I too am in an International Studies degree program and most, if not all, of my "education" has had a pro Islam bias because that's what a liberal education includes these days. Those of us who are college students need to apply a critical analysis to any book/lecture we receive on current events.
As to whether or not honor killings are a tribal custom or sharia law, I think we all understand that it is a practice that comes from a certain culture of the world that the West needs to reject at all costs. I would be careful defending Islam, because I cannot imagine Islam ever defending you. You can call it sharia or you can call it Donald Duck but i know the problem when i see it.
Lastly, there are people on this site that seem to have more real world training/experience with the culture than you or I will get from a book that was assigned in an International Relations class. I'm not trying to be an A**hole, but I respectfully disagree with your position in this discussion.
JW
That works for me!
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0214/p07s02-wome.html
DAMASCUS, SYRIA - Sixteen-year-old Zahra Ezzo died at the hospital last month after a brutal attack. But it was her brother who confessed to killing her – and her family who appointed him to carry out the murder.
Some experts estimate that 200 to 300 honor killings like Zahra's occur every year in Syria. Most receive little or no attention. But Zahra's murder – in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area – has compelled Syria's grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic. President Bashar al-Assad has also promised to find a solution.
Among the public, too, debate is rising about the practice and the laws that protect men who carry out such killings.
A key question is whether the brother should go on trial for premeditated murder – the family had planned it for months – or as someone who had no choice because the clan's honor was at stake.
Syria's law is lenient on a man who kills or injures his female relative if he catches her in "illegitimate sexual acts with another," or in a "suspicious state with another." If Zahra's brother is tried under this law, he might get out of jail in three months.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1120/p01s01-wome.html
QALQILYA, WEST BANK - All the women in the family say Wafa Wahdan was wonderful.
But her sisters-in-law add that they noticed a few little things. She had changed the way she dressed in the past year to a less conservative style and she sometimes went out for a drive without saying where she was going.
A few weeks ago, the body of the young mother of four was found in a garbage dump east of town. Police arrested two of the woman's male cousins for having trapped Ms. Wahdan and shot her to death, committing the third "honor killing" in Qalqilya last month.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/18/iraq.honorkilling/
BAGHDAD, IRAQ (CNN) -- Authorities in northern Iraq have arrested four people in connection with the "honor killing" last month of a Kurdish teen -- a startling, morbid pummeling caught on a mobile phone video camera and broadcast around the world.
The case highlights the tragedy and brutality of honor killings -- where family members kill relatives, almost always female, because they feel the relatives' actions have shamed the family.
In this case, Dua Khalil, a 17-year-old Kurdish girl whose religion is Yazidi, was dragged into a crowd in a headlock with police looking on and kicked, beaten and stoned to death last month.
Two of the four arrested are members of the victim's family, police in Nineveh province said Thursday. Four others, including a cousin thought to have instigated the killing, are being sought.
I will not quote wikipedia but they have info. It is questionable but give some basic facts.http://womennewsnetwork.net/2007/05/17/honor-killings-a-worldwide-crime/
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/
Over 5000 women and girls are killed every year by family members in so-called 'honour killings', according to the UN. These crimes occur where cultures believe that a woman's unsanctioned sexual behaviour brings such shame on the family that any female accused or suspected must be murdered. Reasons for these murders can be as trivial as talking to a man, or as innocent as suffering rape.
This one is a little slanted but has a lot of info on Sharia Law and Honor Killings:
http://islamwatchers.blogspot.com/2007/08/muslim-honor-killings.html
http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/2250-UK-Muslim-Honor-Killing-Wife-Daughters-Burned-Alive.html
http://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=68&num=145775
Iraq Accepts Sharia Law As Beheading, Honor Killing Of Women Rises
by J. Grant Swank, Jr.
Per AlterNet's Terri Judd, beheading of Muslim females is up in Iraq.
The 19-year-old Shawbo Ali Rauf was slain by her clan because of disgracing their "honor." They found a number on her cell phone that was unidentified. Genocide is increasing in the name of Allah.
"At first glance she appears to be slumbering on the grass, her pale brown curls framing her face, her summer skirt spread about her. But the awkward position of her limbs and the splattered blood reveal the true horror of the scene.
"The Iraqi was, according to her father, murdered by her own in-laws, who took her to a picnic area in Dokan and shot her seven times."
Rand Abdel-Qader, l7, was stabbed to death by her father. She was accused of having "become infatuated with a British solder serving in southern Iraq."
Basra police report 15 women slain for braking Koran dictates. They broke the Muslim "dress code." Others say the statistics are much higher.
"Beheadings, rapes, beatings, suicides through self-immolation, genital mutilation, trafficking and child abuse masquerading as marriage of girls as young as nine are all on the increase."
Nineveh's 17-year-old Du'a Khalil Aswad was stoned to death in front of 2000 cheering men. She "fell in love with a boy outside her Hazidi tribe."
No one has been prosecuted. Her father informs press that her family has been ostracized by the entire tribe. They can no longer live in their home. They are "outcasts."
"'My daughter did nothing wrong,' her faith said. 'She fell in love with a Muslim and there is nothing wrong with that. I couldn't protect her because I got threats from my brother, the whole tribe. They insisted they were gong to kill us all, not only Du'a, if she was not killed. She was mutilated, her body dumped like rubbish.'"
Extremist Muslims in Iraq protest peace organizations exposing the carnage.
"'Honor killings are not actually a crime in the eyes of the government,' said Houzan Mahmoud, who has had a fatwa on her head since raising a petition against the introduction of sharia law in Kurdistan. 'If before there was one dictator persecuting people, now almost everyone is persecuting women.
"'In the past five years it is has got [much] worse. It is difficult to described how terrible it is, how badly we have been pushed back to the dark ages. Women are being beheaded for taking their veil off. Self immolation is rising - women are left with no choice. There is no government body or institution to provide any sort of support. Sharia law is being used to underpin government rule, denying women their most basic human rights.'"
Yet I get emails from Muslim females saying that there is no beheading of Muslims, there is no mistreatment of Islamic females. These are the naïve, uninformed Muslims worldwide who continue the denial.
Faithfreedom.org site continues to post truth about such atrocities. Yet the webmaster informs his readers that their truth-tells are very disturbing to those brainwashed to believe that Islam is the true, peace religion.
Jaffar Nimat, 11, was found in Khanaqin, Kurdistan. She was stoned to death, then burnt. Her brothers and sister were kidnapped from their house by gunmen, then beaten to death.
Begard Huseein, journalist in Arbil, was slain. Her husband stabbed her.
Sulaymaniyah, a city of 1 million, 407 reports were filed. They detailed beheadings, beatins, deaths through "family problems," and threats of honor killings. Rape is not filed. Women fear reporting rapes.
The Iraqi Constitution is laden with contradictions. Equality of genders is stated in the document while at the same time sharia is stated as the acceptable justice and legal system. Sharia regards one male worth two females. This must be observed throughout the country.
Women protesting this discrimination are beheaded. In Mosul two years ago, eight protesters were beheaded "in a terror campaign."
"'It was really, really horrifying,' said an oficial. 'Honor killings and murder are widespread. Thousands [of people] ... have become victims of murder, violence and rape - all backed by laws, tribal customs and religious rules. We urge the international community, the government to condemn this barbaric practice, and help the women of Iraq.'"
So much for the religion of peace.
OK it took 5 min and this is just a little that has been reported lately (12 months) Clan/Tribe/Cultural/Sharia Law it just is Barbaric from any standpoint. Do we really want this type of Culture?:munchin
OK it took 5 min and this is just a little that has been reported lately (12 months) Clan/Tribe/Cultural/Sharia Law it just is Barbaric from any standpoint. Do we really want this type of Culture?HELL NO!
Astraeus:
I'm in one of those countries as I type and they treat their females like SHIT!
We just had an infant "female" die and you want too know why? Because they (she) are treated like SHIT!
Stay safe.
Astraeus
07-08-2008, 13:17
Reaper made the snide remark about welcoming Sharia law to the United States. Islam is of course used by those who commit the acts to "justify" honors killings. However, it doesn't require a "pro Islam bias" to know that Sharia doesn't support honors killings or even really address the concept. As for personal experience, I've talked with enough Christian Arabs over there about the problem being a real issue in their more rural communities to make the book irrelevant. Christianity over there might not be particularly recognizable to Christians in this country. Likewise there's a mosque for gay Muslims in San Francisco, and the Muslims there probably wouldn't feel super fabulous in the Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo.
As an aside, my personal belief is that the definition of a religion is not a book, or a written doctrine, but is what people who call themselves followers of a religion are doing on a daily basis. By this measure, some Muslims are living a religion of peace, but many others are not. I really do hate the "Islam is a religion of peace" apologists. What does that even mean when so many unspeakable acts are carried out in the name of a faith? At the same time taking a broad brush and saying "Sharia condones honors killings," is simply objectively speaking, wrong. If you want to prevent our society from suffering from people with backward tribal thinking try not alienating all the moderate Muslims in this country by saying Koranic law supports a practice many of them find abhorrent and un-muslim.
All those stories cant be right, I've several sources that inform me it is a religion of peace!!
Chris Cram
07-08-2008, 13:32
HELL NO!
Astraeus:
I'm in one of those countries as I type and they treat their females like SHIT!
We just had an infant "female" die and you want too know why? Because they (she) are treated like SHIT!
Stay safe.
It is at these times when we find our natures defined, and how far we have come.
Say a prayer for the child, and hope for tomorrow.
With heavy heart, Shalom Guy.
The Reaper
07-08-2008, 13:53
Reaper made the snide remark about welcoming Sharia law to the United States.
Yes I did, based on many years of experience, education, and training.
And then you made a snide comment in return.
As noted by others, a few references and a degree do not automatically make you an expert.
I am not seeing too many "moderate" Muslims, or at least, very few with the moral character to speak up and call a spade a spade.
Murdering a child, especially one of your own, over such a trivial matter, in the name of your God, does not do you, your ethnicity, or your religion much good.
Where are the "moderate" Muslims (who might be offended) condemning this brutal murder? The offense to their God and faith should have them out in the streets. Maybe I have missed that.
TR
Reaper made the snide remark about welcoming Sharia law to the United States. Islam is of course used by those who commit the acts to "justify" honors killings. However, it doesn't require a "pro Islam bias" to know that Sharia doesn't support honors killings or even really address the concept. As for personal experience, I've talked with enough Christian Arabs over there about the problem being a real issue in their more rural communities to make the book irrelevant. Christianity over there might not be particularly recognizable to Christians in this country. Likewise there's a mosque for gay Muslims in San Francisco, and the Muslims there probably wouldn't feel super fabulous in the Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo.
As an aside, my personal belief is that the definition of a religion is not a book, or a written doctrine, but is what people who call themselves followers of a religion are doing on a daily basis. By this measure, some Muslims are living a religion of peace, but many others are not. I really do hate the "Islam is a religion of peace" apologists. What does that even mean when so many unspeakable acts are carried out in the name of a faith? At the same time taking a broad brush and saying "Sharia condones honors killings," is simply objectively speaking, wrong. If you want to prevent our society from suffering from people with backward tribal thinking try not alienating all the moderate Muslims in this country by saying Koranic law supports a practice many of them find abhorrent and un-muslim.
:confused:
1st I feel that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder on this subject. From your writings I guess that you are Muslim as why you keep trying to redirect this thread to the tribes and Christians. Is this True? Does not matter but I am just Courious so I can understand your point of reference.
2nd The Reaper made a title to catch the eye and open a discussion. Was it snide, I do not think so but some may take it as that. Who cares. I was wrong TR was being TR.
3rd There are a lot of Imams that put out edicts citing Sharia Law as the justification. Look at a couple of the links I did toward the bottom of my last post.
If they are representing the Muslim faith in a bad way why do the Imams not clean it up? They seem to have such a hold over the true believers that they should just put out a MEMO and all would stop. YOU KNOW WHY? They are IDIOTS........ OK Not all but a large percentage should just climb back in their hole and stay in their lane.
If we are so bad then lets just build a wall and take all the True Believers and put them inside the walls and they can do what they want. But outside those walls in the civilized world they need to act like the norms on the rest of the "Civilized World"
Young Man Pull your head out of your $^^#$ and open your eyes and see what is in the real world as stated before...... It is great to be a student and have no responsibility's other that eat, drink, sleep, study , etc etc etc... But reality is different and even my 18 year old University Daughter knows that. (She has traveled to 5 countries). When I attended some classes at GWU I could not stand those narrow minded closed eyed people that some how eventually went to USAID or State Department. The world is a sobering thing and you had better belly up to the bar and take a drink of Reality. Good luck in your studies. Close the books and go out and see what is really going on.
Oh the Muslim religion does not condone Homosexuality but they seam to have sure indulged in it in JORDAN/IRAQ/SAUDI ARABIA/ETC when I have been there. Oh I should have said publicly but when a Jordanian officer tries to trade me his 2 house boys for my medic I think he was a little gay. I finally had him up to 15 goats, 10 sheep, 4 camels and 2 house boys before I told him that the Medic was not for trade. He was not happy and sent a house boy to get him anyway. My medic would not leave the hooch for the last 4 days before redeployment. :munchin
...Sharia doesn't support honors killings or even really address the concept...a religion is not a book, or a written doctrine, but is what people who call themselves followers of a religion are doing on a daily basis... At the same time taking a broad brush and saying "Sharia condones honors killings," is simply objectively speaking, wrong.
If you have the chance to take any leadership (not management) classes, one of the first things you'll learn is that tacit approval is as influential as actual approval.
Yes I did, based on many years of experience, education, and training.
And then you made a snide comment in return.
As noted by others, a few references and a degree do not automatically make you an expert.
I am not seeing too many "moderate" Muslims, or at least, very few with the moral character to speak up and call a spade a spade.
Murdering a child, especially one of your own, over such a trivial matter, in the name of your God, does not do you, your ethnicity, or your religion much good.
Where are the "moderate" Muslims (who might be offended) condemning this brutal murder? The offense to their God and faith should have them out in the streets. Maybe I have missed that.
TR
Spot On....... Morals? I did not know they had any!!!! (SNIDE COMMENT)
Killing a child is wrong no matter who you are or what ever religion you are. They have not shown that they value any part of life so I can not expect any Moral character. When the ones that stand up the Majority seams to shoot them down "Literally" (SNIDE COMMENT)
I guess his problem is he has nothing based on many years of experience, education, and training.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-08-2008, 14:40
. If you want to prevent our society from suffering from people with backward tribal thinking try not alienating all the moderate Muslims in this country by saying Koranic law supports a practice many of them find abhorrent and un-muslim.
Oh Please! They have done a pretty good job to date alienating themselves. What exactly is a "moderate" Muslim. That is like defining the continuum of warm water from tepid to hot. Groups that lend their loyalties to their own special ethnicities and religions because they find that they cannot comfortably abide by the cultures in which they find themselves will always be on the outside looking in. Those that choose not to be alienated are those that stand and call themselves Americans of Muslim faith. If they find that they cannot abide by the tenets of the culture and the law of the land then they can pack it in. A Muslim is welcome in my home as long as he understands when he lays out his prayer rug that one of my pet dogs are likely to fluff it and use it as a bed. By you own statement you have identified moderate muslims seriously lacking in moral courage if you feel that they have a hard time supporting Koranic law because some of the practices are abhorrent and un-muslim. If you cannot stand for what you believe then just what does a moderate muslim stand for if not that which is defined by the Koran that is supposed to rule, not guide, his daily existence? If they think they are confused, how do they expect we lovers of unclean dogs and infidels who find it laughable that some terrorist has convinced his followers that he and he alone received the word of his "merciful" god and that all who do not follow him should be put to the sword. Not a whole lot of "moderation" in that fairy tale now is there?
Its one thing to beat the kids every once in a while :p but never kick my Dog....
Reaper made the snide remark about welcoming Sharia law to the United States.If TRs remark got your "panties-in-a-twist?" I'd drive you crazy!:cool:
Stay safe.
Astraeus
07-08-2008, 23:46
If you have the chance to take any leadership (not management) classes, one of the first things you'll learn is that tacit approval is as influential as actual approval.
Okay I'll get the chip off my shoulder and I'll try to be more nuanced.
Razor and Jack Moroney, not that it matters a great amount to you what I think, but very thought provoking points.
For this narrow purpose I'll try defining moderate Muslims as those who say they don't condone killing their female family members for matters of "honor", and who say it's un-islamic. That would be the tepid water, I suppose.
It's disturbing, the continued leniency of law and the existence of special laws that offer reduced sentences if a murder is an "honor crime" in countries in the region like Syria (mentioned above), Jordan, and Egypt. In Jordan the sentence is less than writing a bad check, and it is I suppose one of the more moderate countries in the region.
I agree it's a pretty clear signal of tacit approval. I've talked with a number of seemingly moderate Muslims in Egypt and Jordan about this issue. Maybe they simply say they hate honors killings and say it's un-Islamic in an attempt to present a certain image to the West. Through their inaction perhaps they are condoning the killings all the same? If this is the case I agree with Razor's and Jack Moroney's point completely. Perhaps them saying they disapprove of something to a Westerner (me) has absolutely nothing to do with their actual tacit support of it, and tacit support is what actually matters. I think the answer will come when the next generation, possibly less set in their tribal ways than their elders grows up and starts making decisions.
I suppose this dynamic is the same thing with terrorism and other issues as well. What is the definition of "support?"
That said, there is a pretty consistent thread of attitudes by more traditional cultures around the world toward women. According to UNISEF 5000 Indian brides are killed each year for insufficient dowries. As someone pointed out before with the accuracy of reporting crime that's probably a low ball number. Now is that a "Hindu" practice, and across the border in Pakistan honors killings are a Muslim practice? Seems to me like the similarities have little to do with religion, and more to do with a similar tribal culture, and perhaps how it utilizes religion (Hindu or Muslim) to justify its practices.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html
I really do agree that immigrants from conservative cultures whether they are Muslims or whatever should make the decision before coming whether or not they want to coexist and follow this nation's laws. I don't want a Rashad in my backyard any more than the rest of you.
SF_BHT, your poor medic! I'm sure the officer didn't think of himself as homosexual. That would be unmanly. :rolleyes: I loved seeing the Saudis on vacation gambling in the Hilton with a Moroccan prostitute on each arm. Good to know someone really pious is enjoying our oil crisis.
No I am not a Muslim.
Astraeus
07-09-2008, 00:20
If TRs remark got your "panties-in-a-twist?" I'd drive you crazy!:cool:
Stay safe.
LOL, Sir, well now I have something more like a wedgie, I'm somewhat aware of TR's world perspective, and I was reactionary toward his comments being aware that it came from a certain way of looking at things. I know that his perspective is informed by a lifetime of experience, mine is not. That being the case I'm sure TR will tell me where to stick my perspective. ;-) I feel though that when there is a problem it's important to understand it accurately, and to for example see 1 billion Muslims in over a hundred countries as basically monolithic entity doesn't really help. I believe the complexities and nuances matter a great deal in supporting the good guys in a struggle of ideas. But I don't mean to put too fine a point on things, or ignore the big picture truth. I get the fact that there are many Sharia scholars around the world whose Sharia law interpretation, based on the the Koran and Sunnah, is frankly disturbing. I understand that this is what TR is thinking of.
In general though I contend that if humans and ideas are the terrain, perhaps it's reasonable to not draw an ocean when there are lakes, because there are mountains and valleys in the area as well, and these matter a great deal.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-09-2008, 04:49
Jack Moroney, not that it matters a great amount to you what I think,
No it does not matter what you think about me, but your opinion matters to me as does anyone else who is free to express one.
No it does not matter what you think about me, but your opinion matters to me as does anyone else who is free to express one.
X2
I always tell people that the only one that matters to me is the wife because she sleeps with me, then I remind them she hates me also:D
We took an oath to protect the United States and uphold the Constitution and that is a rare thing in this world. With that you have maintained the right to have Free Speech no matter how slanted you take it or how Politically Correct you want to be. As long as an American follows the rules/Laws and conducts him self correctly as to OUR Rules you can enjoy the Freedoms that We have fought to protect. If you break the faith/laws you will go down and pay the penalty.
Our American ways are not prefect and every country/culture can not function exactly like us but a lot of places need to try to at least get into the 20th Century so their people can have a better quality of life. With this Ancient mentality and No Tolerance for others the people of the Middle East descent (What ever tribal linkage) and others in Asia (India/etc) will never have the benefits of Todays Advances in Medicine and other quality of life advances.
I do not care who my neighbor is to the right or left or in front or behind my house as long as they are friendly, keep up their house and do not break the Law. I have lived next to Blacks/Latinos/Muslim's/Hindi's/Asians and have never had a problem UNLESS they acted Like trash but hell anyone of any Race Creed or Color that acts like trash I will dislike. I would say I am pretty tolerant as most of my fellow QP's are or we could not do the jobs that we do. Now the Redneck cooking Meth in the trailer in the woods? well just to say he is no longer around us. OK The LDS that come over on Saturday when I am washing the car will get sprayed down if they do not take the first No Thank You but I do that to nay one that enters my property Un-Invited.
If you kick my Dog you will go down. :lifter
Team Sergeant
07-09-2008, 11:43
Astraeus,
What tribe/people uses small children and mentally challenged individuals as human IED’s? And their religious affiliation would be?
What tribe/people routinely stones, beats, cut’s off hands, heads etc in the name of islam allah, and sharia law? (And lest we forget places individuals in prison for disagreeing with islam and sharia law.)
What tribe/people are the best know terrorists on the planet and their religious affiliation would again be?
Who is (recently) killing Buddhist teenagers/students in the name of allah?
Who just attacked the U.S. Consulate in Turkey, and their religious affiliation is going to be?
Do you remember the religion of the guy that murdered Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh, it’s the same religion that has placed a death warrant on dozens of individuals around the world that have spoke out against islam.
The guy that just crushed half a dozen people with a bulldozer, care to guess his religious background?
Shamil Basayev the guy that killed hundreds of Russian children in the name of what religion?
Here’s a question for you, why do you think honor killings are now sparking calls for women’s rights in Muslim communities??? Think hard about that one.
Please tell me another group or tribe, all with the same religion affiliation that conducts such worldwide terrorist attacks?
Can you think of any other religion that works so hard at defending its public perception?
I could go on and on, my point being you actually think it’s a large leap to tie muslims or islam to honor killings? Especially when 99% of the honor killings are committed by individuals with an islamic religious background, I don’t.
You are what you believe.
Team Sergeant
frostfire
07-09-2008, 12:07
You are what you believe.
Team Sergeant
Is this yours, TS? I'd like to ask your permission to use/quote it (with due credit of course)
Reminds me of a discussion I once heard:
The way of your belief (theology) determines the way of your thinking (philosophy), which determines the way of your living (morality). With enough 'you,' then morality becomes law. However, since the heart is deceitful, you may believe in one, yet act the other aka. being a fool. In the end, you still have to choose.
There was another "honor killing" in Texas (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320487,00.html) where the father killed both his daughters in January. And another several years ago in Georgia (http://www.ajc.com/gwinnett/content/metro/stories/2008/06/27/sparkle_rai_contract_killing.html) where an Indian man had his daughter-in-law killed. I am sure there are more on US soil, but the gist is that TR is right. This is a growing problem which we will see more of in the USA unless we crack down on it with an iron fist.
IMO they ought to give the guy life. If he gets the death penalty in GA he will end up segregated from the rest of the population and sitting cushy for ten to fifteen years exhausting his appeals and has a fair to midland chance of getting his sentence commuted eventually any way if he can hold out for a Dem to get into office. I say let the inmates of the GA DOC have him... then see how he really like man loving Thursdays.
ETA see what happens when I answer the original post without reading all the responses first... I missed out on the "no really it isn't Islam that condones honor killing" argument. I echo what the others have said, if the majority of the Islamic community is as outraged as we are by this practice... then where are they? Why aren't they condemning the practice? Why are we seeing more of it not only in the US but around the world? Where are the moderate Muslim men when it comes time to protect these women?
Team Sergeant
07-09-2008, 14:01
Is this yours, TS? I'd like to ask your permission to use/quote it (with due credit of course)
Reminds me of a discussion I once heard:
The way of your belief (theology) determines the way of your thinking (philosophy), which determines the way of your living (morality). With enough 'you,' then morality becomes law. However, since the heart is deceitful, you may believe in one, yet act the other aka. being a fool. In the end, you still have to choose.
No, its been said before.
The Reaper
07-09-2008, 17:42
See, from his perspective, he "did nothing wrong."
What he did was okay. And if he had it to do all over again, he would still strangle her to death to protect his honor.
Now, his biggest concern for his mortal soul is that he not eat anything that might have been deemed unclean a couple of thousand years ago. What a great religion.
He just might get away with this.
What I want to know now is why is he in this country. Who approved his visa and why? Was he an H1b case? Somehow, I doubt it.
TR
Dad in 'Honor Killing' Case Says He's Innocent
Wednesday, July 09, 2008
A Georgia man facing charges that he killed his daughter for disgracing his family declared his innocence.
"I have done nothing wrong," Chaudhry Rashid told Chief Magistrate Daphne Walker at his Tuesday hearing through interpreter Younis Farhat, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
Rashid, 54, who speaks primarily Urdu and Punjabi, has been charged with murder in connection with the death of his 25-year-old daughter Sandeela Kanwal. She was found strangled to death with a bungee cord Sunday in the family's Jonesboro, Ga., home.
Kanwal wed in Pakistan in an arranged marriage. Police said she hadn't seen her husband, who lives in Chicago, for months.
"I don't know anything about an arranged marriage," Tammi Long, Rashid's lawyer, told the Journal-Constitution. "I am not positive that is a factor in this case."
According to police, there was "friction between father and victim" in the weeks leading up to the killing. Rashid had not spoken to his daughter in more than two months.
Police Say Georgia Man Killed Own Daughter to Protect Family Honor Report: Iraqi Girl in Love With British Soldier Murdered in 'Honor Killing' Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany Police said Rashid was so angered that his daughter planned to divorce her husband that he killed her after a heated argument at the family's home, FOX News affiliate MyFOXAtlanta reported.
During Tuesday's hearing, Rashid told the judge he wanted to observe his Muslim beliefs while in jail, including a diet that forbids the consumption of pork, the paper said.
Rashid is being held without bond at the Clayton County Jail, the paper said. His next hearing is scheduled for Aug. 4.
He seams all broken up. Must be a Tribal thing......:rolleyes:
During Tuesday's hearing, Rashid told the judge he wanted to observe his Muslim beliefs while in jail, including a diet that forbids the consumption of pork, the paper said.
GOD does have a sense of humor. I don't think there is a meal served in the state of Georgia that does not include pork! Sooeee, Rashid! :rolleyes:
Richard :munchin
""I don't know anything about an arranged marriage," Tammi Long, Rashid's lawyer, told the Journal-Constitution. "I am not positive that is a factor in this case."
According to police, there was "friction between father and victim" in the weeks leading up to the killing. Rashid had not spoken to his daughter in more than two months.
Yeah... it wasn't an honor killing... and he did nothing wrong... and I have this bridge I wann sell ya :rolleyes:
longrange1947
07-09-2008, 20:36
He has the right to not eat pork.
There is just no obligation on the state to NOT serve pork.
See, aren't freedoms great!!! :lifter
The antihero
07-10-2008, 06:12
I'm not sure how related this is to the topic at hand, but I received this via a newsletter by UN Watch (http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1277549/k.BF70/Home.htm):
UN Declares: Islamic Shari'a Taboo in Council Debates
Geneva -- From now on, all references to human rights violations related to Islamic Shar’ia law are prohibited in the chamber of the UN Human Rights Council. So ruled council president Doru Costea after a dramatic debate in the recently concluded June session.
It all started when veteran rights activist David Littman -- undaunted by the repressive regimes who only last month sought to expel him from the UN -- tried to deliver a speech on violence against women and what Islamic scholars can do to prevent it.
Egypt's Amr Roshdy Hassan repeatedly interrupted, aggressively challenging the council president: “Regardless of the result of the vote — I couldn’t care less if I will win or lose this vote — my point is that Islam will not be crucified in this council!”
The president ultimately gave in, declaring: “Statements should refrain from making judgments or evaluations of a particular religion. . . I can promise that at the next evaluation of a religious creed, law, or document, I will interrupt the speaker and we’ll go on to the next one.”
The new ruling follows an Islamic-sponsored text adopted by the council in March that turned its mandate on freedom of expression upside down. Instead of investigating the actions of governments in order to protect individual freedom, the expert is now charged with investigating individuals -- those who "abuse" their freedom of speech through religious or racial discrimination, i.e., by saying anything deemed offensive to Islamic sensibilities. Everyone in the world is now potentially subject to the UN's new speech control.
What does all of this signify?
An iron curtain has descended across the world's highest human rights body. Behind that line lie all the human rights violations committed in the name of a certain religion, about which no one dare speak: suicide terror attacks, honor killings, female genital mutilation, forced child marriage, violence against gays, stonings, state censorship of free speech, jailing of bloggers, prohibitions against freedom of religion, and much, much more.
UN officials, diplomats and even major human rights figures have been afraid to take on this new regime, which now exercises an almost total control over the Human Rights Council, as well as increasing measures of influence over other forums of world opinion.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil," said Edmund Burke, "is that good men do nothing." Would that more people showed the courage of Mr. Littman.
I wonder for how long we'll have to keep tolerating the proceedings of this travesty of an organization.
I'm not sure how related this is to the topic at hand, but I received this via a newsletter by UN Watch (http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1277549/k.BF70/Home.htm):
UN Declares: Islamic Shari'a Taboo in Council Debates
Geneva -- From now on, all references to human rights violations related to Islamic Shar’ia law are prohibited in the chamber of the UN Human Rights Council. So ruled council president Doru Costea after a dramatic debate in the recently concluded June session.
It all started when veteran rights activist David Littman -- undaunted by the repressive regimes who only last month sought to expel him from the UN -- tried to deliver a speech on violence against women and what Islamic scholars can do to prevent it.
Egypt's Amr Roshdy Hassan repeatedly interrupted, aggressively challenging the council president: “Regardless of the result of the vote — I couldn’t care less if I will win or lose this vote — my point is that Islam will not be crucified in this council!”
The president ultimately gave in, declaring: “Statements should refrain from making judgments or evaluations of a particular religion. . . I can promise that at the next evaluation of a religious creed, law, or document, I will interrupt the speaker and we’ll go on to the next one.”
The new ruling follows an Islamic-sponsored text adopted by the council in March that turned its mandate on freedom of expression upside down. Instead of investigating the actions of governments in order to protect individual freedom, the expert is now charged with investigating individuals -- those who "abuse" their freedom of speech through religious or racial discrimination, i.e., by saying anything deemed offensive to Islamic sensibilities. Everyone in the world is now potentially subject to the UN's new speech control.
What does all of this signify?
An iron curtain has descended across the world's highest human rights body. Behind that line lie all the human rights violations committed in the name of a certain religion, about which no one dare speak: suicide terror attacks, honor killings, female genital mutilation, forced child marriage, violence against gays, stonings, state censorship of free speech, jailing of bloggers, prohibitions against freedom of religion, and much, much more.
UN officials, diplomats and even major human rights figures have been afraid to take on this new regime, which now exercises an almost total control over the Human Rights Council, as well as increasing measures of influence over other forums of world opinion.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil," said Edmund Burke, "is that good men do nothing." Would that more people showed the courage of Mr. Littman.
I wonder for how long we'll have to keep tolerating the proceedings of this travesty of an organization.
I am not surprised. They want everyone to put up with what ever they do but NO ONE can say or do anything in reference Islam. If we do we are to be killed. That to me seems to be the theme from throughout the Islamic world no matter what country it is.
I still advocate the Build a Wall Theory. Select a few countries in the Middle east and Build a wall bigger than the Great Wall of China completely around them. No imports of our terrible western culture or technology. Let all Devout Muslims move in and we will turn off all TV/Cable/Technology/CNN and let them live how ever they want in their little sand kingdom.
I still advocate the Bill wall theory. Select a few countries in the Middle east and Build a wall bigger than the Great Wall of China completely around them.
You forgot one part, "then fill with water." :D
You forgot one part, "then fill with water." :D
There is a water shortage why waste it on them.:rolleyes:
The Reaper
07-10-2008, 09:08
You forgot one part, "then fill with water." :D
You got an alternate source for energy?
TR
Team Sergeant
07-10-2008, 09:09
I'm not sure how related this is to the topic at hand, but I received this via a newsletter by UN Watch (http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1277549/k.BF70/Home.htm):
UN Declares: Islamic Shari'a Taboo in Council Debates
Geneva -- From now on, all references to human rights violations related to Islamic Shar’ia law are prohibited in the chamber of the UN Human Rights Council. So ruled council president Doru Costea after a dramatic debate in the recently concluded June session.
It all started when veteran rights activist David Littman -- undaunted by the repressive regimes who only last month sought to expel him from the UN -- tried to deliver a speech on violence against women and what Islamic scholars can do to prevent it.
Egypt's Amr Roshdy Hassan repeatedly interrupted, aggressively challenging the council president: “Regardless of the result of the vote — I couldn’t care less if I will win or lose this vote — my point is that Islam will not be crucified in this council!”
The president ultimately gave in, declaring: “Statements should refrain from making judgments or evaluations of a particular religion. . . I can promise that at the next evaluation of a religious creed, law, or document, I will interrupt the speaker and we’ll go on to the next one.”
The new ruling follows an Islamic-sponsored text adopted by the council in March that turned its mandate on freedom of expression upside down. Instead of investigating the actions of governments in order to protect individual freedom, the expert is now charged with investigating individuals -- those who "abuse" their freedom of speech through religious or racial discrimination, i.e., by saying anything deemed offensive to Islamic sensibilities. Everyone in the world is now potentially subject to the UN's new speech control.
What does all of this signify?
An iron curtain has descended across the world's highest human rights body. Behind that line lie all the human rights violations committed in the name of a certain religion, about which no one dare speak: suicide terror attacks, honor killings, female genital mutilation, forced child marriage, violence against gays, stonings, state censorship of free speech, jailing of bloggers, prohibitions against freedom of religion, and much, much more.
UN officials, diplomats and even major human rights figures have been afraid to take on this new regime, which now exercises an almost total control over the Human Rights Council, as well as increasing measures of influence over other forums of world opinion.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil," said Edmund Burke, "is that good men do nothing." Would that more people showed the courage of Mr. Littman.
I wonder for how long we'll have to keep tolerating the proceedings of this travesty of an organization.
Our leaders are not foolish and I've little doubt why the US Gov is pushing an agenda not to associate islam with jihad or insult islam.
Its not that we fear any middle eastern country (especially iran:rolleyes:) what we do fear is that they get pissed off enough to cut off our oil supply. They do have their finger on the oil button.
What do you think would happen if we outlawed anyone practicing islam in the United States? I betting the repercussions would be fairly severe. Why else would we (the US) do business with a government (saudi arabia) that is on par with the taliban as far as repressive and totalitarian governments are concerned.
Had these desert nomads not been sitting on billions of barrels of oil, most in the world would not know what islam is or how brutal a religion/ideology islam can be because no one would care to visit the middle east and they would still be desert nomads caught up in the 14th century in a world of their own.
I’m not saying this is all about oil; it’s become much more complicated over the past three decades with a lot more players involved.
IMO once we cease our dependence on foreign oil we will not have to placate the peoples of the middle east, islam, or repressive totalitarian governments.
TS
Interesting pieces on the topic of this thread:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JC11Ak04.html
Should Islam be blamed for 'barbaric' acts?
By Spengler
Al-Jazeera television on March 9 apologized to viewers after a talk-show guest, Syrian-American psychologist Dr Wafa Sultan, described as "barbaric" the response of Muslims to a Danish newspaper's cartoons about the Prophet Mohammed. "The Muslims' barbaric reaction added to the value of these cartoons. It simply proved their rightness," said Dr Sultan on the Qatari network. "The Muslim is an irrational creature, and the things he learned overpower his mind and inflame his feelings. That is why these remarks have turned him into an inferior creature, who cannot control himself and respond to events in a rational way."
Despite the network’s hasty apology, Dr Sultan’s presence on the show is a sign of the times. The issue of Muslim "barbarism", including honor killings and other forms of violence against women, has risen in prominence in Europe's political agenda. The question appears to be: Do Muslims commit barbaric acts because they are bad Muslims or because they are good Muslims? Does Islam as such promote barbarism or suppress it? Within the vast collection of hadith, or apocryphal sayings of Mohammed, are to be found explicit support for female genital mutilation and wife-beating. Are such barbaric acts a residue of traditional society that persist despite Islam, or because of it?
I shall argue that this is the wrong question, for Islam by its nature cannot be separated from primitive life.
Many Muslims protest that Islamic law does not sanction honor killings, and that other ethnic groups (eg, Hindus in Britain) are guilty of the practice. Honor killings are a repulsive aspect of traditional society. We first hear of such an act in Genesis 34, when after Jacob’s daughter Dinah was seduced by a man of Shechem, after which his sons Simeon and Levi instigated the slaughter of the town’s men. But Jacob denounced the act and still reproached his sons for it from his deathbed.
The Hebrew Bible reports the practice of honor killing, but abhors it. Muslims remain divided on the subject. Strictly speaking, it is true that Islamic law forbids a Muslim family from killing an adulteress or a woman who has had relations with a non-Muslim man. But that is only because Islamic law specifies that Islamic courts, rather than families, should supervise the killing. It is not that women (and sometimes men) should not be killed for the crime of illicit sexual relations, but rather that the Islamic courts should arrange the killing.
For this reason, Islamic law views quite leniently honor killings that accomplish what the courts would have done given the opportunity, and many Islamic commentators do not see why families should wait for the courts at all. Until recently, Jordan gave "honor" killers sentences of as little as six months under Article 340 of the Jordan Penal Code, which stated: "Anyone catching his wife or one of his immediate family in a flagrant act of fornication with another person, and kills, injures or harms both or either of them, will benefit from the exculpating excuse ..."
Jordan's King Abdullah succeeded in revising this language, but as the Associated Press reported last year, "attempts to introduce harsher sentences for honor killings have been blocked in Jordan's parliament, where the predominantly conservative Bedouin lawmakers argue that lesser penalties [than honor killings] would lead to tolerating of promiscuity."
Islamic clerics, to be sure, tend to favor the idea that they rather than families should do the killing. According to a traditional ruling cited by Dr Mohammed Fadel and frequently posted on Islamic sites,
The prohibition against applying a legal penalty without legal authority (bi ghayri sultan) and without witnesses; cutting off the means to shedding the blood of a Muslim based merely upon the claim of his accuser, the one seeking the shedding of the accused's blood. [In this case] the truth of the claim would be known only by [the accuser's] own statement and Allah, may He be glorified and sanctified, has made the life of a Muslim a precious thing, and has made the sin in taking it great as well. Therefore, it [legal punishment] is permissible only under the conditions in which Allah has permitted it. [Application of legal punishments] is exclusively for the government so that it may apply that which Allah has commanded in His book or on the tongue of His Prophet.
There is no question that flogging and execution of adulterers is mandated by the Koran (eg, Sudra 4:15). As I observed in another context, this point is so clear in Islamic law that Professor Tariq Ramadan refused to condemn the practice in a televised debate with then French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy.
All Islamic commentary on the subject, though, applies to the behavior of Muslims in a country under Islamic rule in which the only only law is Islamic law. If no Islamic courts are available, what should an individual Muslim do? Is it then permissible to take the law into one's own hands? We have no clear record of Islamic jurisprudence on the subject, for only in recent years have large numbers of Muslims come to live in non-Muslim countries. But the reticence of Islamic clergy in the West to denounce honor killings is noteworthy. Western apologists for Islam who attempt to distinguish between the religion and primitive practices constantly stub their toes against Muslim authorities who insist that honor killing, genital mutilation, and stoning of adulterers is mandated by Islam.
The death penalty for adultery is typical of primitive society (it is of course found in the Hebrew Bible), but extremely rare in the Jewish Commonwealth during the historical era. In Hillel's time, a generation before Jesus, the saying was that a court that handed down one death sentence in a century was considered a hanging court. Jesus' mercy towards the adulteress reflected a wide body of Second-Temple opinion.
The crucial issue is why the practices of primitive society perdure in the Islamic world while they have been eliminated in the Judeo-Christian world. The practice of genital mutilation, surely one of the most barbaric customs in the world, is still defended by Islamic clergy. The website Islam Online has the following to say on the subject:
Before delving deep into the question of female circumcision, we would like to make it clear that 'female circumcision' means removing the prepuce of the clitoris, not the clitoris itself.
As for the Shariah stance on female circumcision, it’s a controversial issue among the Muslim scholars and even doctors.
In response to the question, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states:
Actually, this is a controversial issue among jurists and even among doctors. It has sparked off fierce debate in Egypt whereby scholars and doctors are split into proponents and opponents.
However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths - even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: 'Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands.' The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying 'do not exceed the limit' means do not totally remove the clitoris.
And Livingislam.org defends wife-beating as follows:
The basic rule (asl) is strict prohibition, followed by dispensation (rukhsa) as explicited by the Prophet in the hadith below, which al-Shafi`i took for his evidence in his ruling:
The Prophet said: 'Do not hit the maidservants of Allah!' (la tadribu ima' Allah). Then Umar (RA) came to the Prophet and said [NB: by way of exaggeration, cf Awn al-Ma bud]: 'The women are rebelling (dha'irna) against their husbands!' So the Prophet gave a dispensation (rakhkhasa) to beat them.
Not all Islamic countries practice female genital mutilation, to be sure, and some non-Islamic African countries do so. The custom is neither universal in Islam nor unique to it.
Nonetheless, the ubiquity of traditional practices that the civilized world long has repudiated underscores the fundamental difference between Islam on one hand, and Judaism and Christianity on the other. No Christian court has condemned a woman to death for adultery; although the death penalty for adultery is found in the Book of Leviticus, there is no record of such a sentence by any Jewish court. Although elements of traditional practice are found in ancient Jewish law, the entire purpose of the Jewish code is to separate Israel from the pagan practices of its neighbors. "Holiness" in Hebrew shares a root with the word for separation. The practices of traditional society throughout the Hebrew Bible are regarded as an abomination. By electing Israel, God removes it from the traditional world.
(cont.)
(cont.)
Christianity rejects traditional society all the more emphatically. To become a Christian, every individual must repudiate ethnicity and be reborn into a spiritualized Israel. The reborn Christian belongs not to a tribe, but to the people of God.
Franz Rosenzweig, the great German-Jewish theologian, qualified Islam as a parody of revealed religion. On the surface Islam mimics Jewish more than Christian practice; Muslims pray five times a day while the Jews pray three times, males are circumcised, a similar dietary code prevails, and so forth. But the inability of Islam to rid itself of the most barbaric practices of the primitive world at the beginning of the 21st century is a hallmark of a parody. The resemblances are strictly on the surface. The primitive world persists in Islam under the Abrahamic veneer, because the religion never offered a challenge to it. A small people to repudiate the practices of the pagan world, but a religion that absorbs countless peoples by conquest must accept them with their customs more or less intact.
In another respect, Islam parodies Christianity. Unlike Judaism, which seeks to separate Israel from the traditional practices of the surrounding peoples, Christianity proposes to incorporate all of humanity into the new People of God, by effecting an inner transformation of every individual. By this transformation, Christians believe, all of humanity can become holy. Islam offers a universal religion not of inner transformation but of obedience. Precisely this form of surface universalism ensures that Muslims carry the baggage of traditional life into the new religion, for it offers no point of departure from traditional society.
For this reason it is meaningless to ask whether Islam opposes or promotes the practices of traditional society, for its method of expansion is to absorb whole the societies within its power. As a universal religion, it can only universalize the aspirations of the tribes it assimilates, rather than transform them. At its worst, Christianity makes compromises with the pagan heritage of its converts, which is why Sicilian Catholics killed for honor until recently; at its best, Islam embodies this pagan heritage, which is why it cannot rid itself of barbarism today.
For more extensive discussion, I refer the reader to my essay Christian, Muslim, Jew in the October 2007 issue of First Things.
(Copyright 2008 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved.)
The antihero
07-11-2008, 06:08
Our leaders are not foolish and I've little doubt why the US Gov is pushing an agenda not to associate islam with jihad or insult islam.
Its not that we fear any middle eastern country (especially iran:rolleyes:) what we do fear is that they get pissed off enough to cut off our oil supply. They do have their finger on the oil button.
What do you think would happen if we outlawed anyone practicing islam in the United States? I betting the repercussions would be fairly severe. Why else would we (the US) do business with a government (saudi arabia) that is on par with the taliban as far as repressive and totalitarian governments are concerned.
Had these desert nomads not been sitting on billions of barrels of oil, most in the world would not know what islam is or how brutal a religion/ideology islam can be because no one would care to visit the middle east and they would still be desert nomads caught up in the 14th century in a world of their own.
I’m not saying this is all about oil; it’s become much more complicated over the past three decades with a lot more players involved.
IMO once we cease our dependence on foreign oil we will not have to placate the peoples of the middle east, islam, or repressive totalitarian governments.
TS
I agree sir. Without oil the ME would have been as much a backwater place in 20th century as it was in 19th.
Does anyone imagine that there is a group of jihadists sitting around discussing whether or not there is a difference between Christian Crusaders and American tribal culture? I appreciate Astraeus' POV because i believe his points demonstrate what a lot of academics in our country think. I don't see what is gained by delineating between tribal culture and "true islam".
I've read the koran, back when i was into self-abuse, and I defy anyone to read that book outloud and then tell me with a straight face that there is such a thing as a moderate muslim. If you do what the book says, you're a radical.
There are those posing as Christians that protest at soldier's funerals and bomb clinics and kill homosexuals. However, they can quickly be discredited by comparing their false doctrine to the Bible. It is not quite so easy to do that with Jihadists and the Koran.
A little something on the mindset of people involved with honor killings.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=147349&bolum=101
A little something on the mindset of people involved with honor killings.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=147349&bolum=101
Pete,
Thank you for posting this article!!!
A quote from the article:
"The team visited 44 prisons in the region and interviewed 180 perpetrators of honor killings. Of these, 100 percent say they do not regret their actions, Professor Bağlı notes. In some cases, the victim’s relatives even praised the perpetrator, he adds."
Oh yes! Finally, something that supports Islamic fathers killing their daughters as peaceful and understanding.:rolleyes:
Wake-up and smell the napalm!
Just my humble .02.
Could only hope that someday the "Women" under this oppression could be taught how to Kick-the-Ass of these bastards!:mad:
Holly
The antihero
07-16-2008, 06:06
"In some cases, the victim’s relatives even praised the perpetrator, he adds."
We had an honour killing in Italy a couple of year ago. A poor Pakistani girl.
In a rare spasm of good sense by the italian justice system the court inflicted on the perps, the father and an uncle, the maximum penalty (30 years). Yet the mother of the assassinated girl kept pleading for her husband.