.45 Ammo

[Team Sergeant]

.45 Ammo

I was at the park with my kids the other day. We were the only ones there. As my little ones were busy playing I saw a very large dog (100lbs) no more than 50m from my kids that were chasing birds around the park. He stood up from the bushes he was laying in and turned, moving towards my kids.
As I closed the distance I had my hand on my .45, prepared to make a high value shot if required.
My question. I carry ball, 230 gr. Had I shot the mutt the round may have continued on.
Had there been others in the park I would not have, in good conscience, made the shot with others behind the dog. Take into account that the ground here is like concrete, it would have ricocheted. I’ve never thought about making a shot with a “downwards angle� until now.

I need to change my thinking and purchase some ammo that will meet my needs.

Discussion is open, all are welcome to join in. We’re discussing ammunition, not my situation as stated above.

Team Sergeant

[The Reaper]

TS:

I used to carry Federal Hydrashok, it is regularly among the top performers in the conventional ammo.

I currently keep LeMas in the pistols that are on me. I would not leave one lying around with that stuff in it. Too scary to contemplate.

You hit a running dog with that stuff, it will look like he got a direct hit from a 40mm round.

I have fired it into live tissue, and it looks a lot like the roasts that they have shot.

Good in the house too, stops in just a few sheets of drywall.

Send APLP a note, request a CD.

TR

[Air.177]

Federal Hydra Shok, Speer Gold Dot, COR-BON, Lemas(sp). Seems to me(uneducated civilian) that any expanding bullet would provide less of an overpenetration/ ricochet danger than a hardball round, as well as better terminal performance. Frangibles like Glaser and Magsafe are popular but expensive and their performance can degrade with time.

[The Reaper]

The LeMas is expensive as well.

What is your life worth?

TR

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by The Reaper

What is your life worth?



Nothing compared to the little people I watch over.

Send me some dealer info on LaMas and I'll make the purchase.

TS

[Roguish Lawyer]

Let me ask an ignorant question, please.

In the situation you described, are you better off with a .40? Or a 9?

[Bill Harsey]

Just shoot the dog. Much of the projectiles energy will be absorbed in the target.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Let me ask an ignorant question, please.

In the situation you described, are you better off with a .40? Or a 9?

That Mr. Attorney, depends on three things, the platform, the bullet and the shooter.

And no, any situation could lend itself to what I’ve already described, and worse case a ricochet is a ricochet.
A .40 and 9mm usually travel at much higher velocities than the .45. This means they can easily over penetrate an intended target easier than a .45.
Why are cops and the military not carrying .45 as standard issue? Most cannot handle the massive .45 and place rounds on intended targets.

TS

[QuietShootr]

I killed the pit bull that bit my wife two years ago with a 230gr HydraShok to the brain box. Weapon was a USP Compact. He dropped like an unstrung puppet.

I carry either HydraShok or these days, the 230gr Winchester Ranger T.

I'm not touching the LeMas subject with a ten foot pole.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Just shoot the dog. Much of the projectiles energy will be absorbed in the target.

In the above case, had his hackles or lips raised I would have dropped him.

The thing that alerted me was his tail was not wagging as he approached.... he did not look like a normal happy dog.

TS

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
In the above case, had his hackles or lips raised I would have dropped him.

The thing that alerted me was his tail was not wagging as he approached.... he did not look like a normal happy dog.

TS Good judgement, if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by QuietShootr

I'm not touching the LeMas subject with a ten foot pole.

Why?

[APLP]

Originally posted by QuietShootr
I killed the pit bull that bit my wife two years ago with a 230gr HydraShok to the brain box. Weapon was a USP Compact. He dropped like an unstrung puppet.

I carry either HydraShok or these days, the 230gr Winchester Ranger T.

I'm not touching the LeMas subject with a ten foot pole.

Feel free to stick your pole in the water. Anyone interested in these ammuntion designs needs to hear what you have to say and the response. The biggest disservice to folks is for them not to find out what is fact and what is dissinformation. With respect to these rounds the proof is in what happens with each pull of the trigger and are the performance claims accurate.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by APLP
Feel free to stick your pole in the water.

Quietshooter,

You see any advertisements on ProfessionalSoldiers.com? Didn’t think so. Speak your piece.

Team Sergeant

[GackMan]

Well - you can't really go wrong switching from ball to something like a 230 gr STX, or some other premium HP.

Same weight and velocity but penetrates 13-18 inches and expands to .75-.85 diameter along the way. Any hollow point that will give you a little less penetration, better deposit of energy, and larger wound tract would be better than ball in the dog attack scenario. But it is a dog... what ammo can you carry for people and still be safe with a smaller target like a dog? just have to be as safe as you can.

230 gr ball at 850 fps goes 20-25 inches in gelatin (not an exact duplicate for dog). so 16 inches of dog wouldn't leave it with a lot of energy (anyone got a chrono and a dog you don't like?)

In your scenario, I wouldn't be too worried about a .45 ball over penetrating a 100 lb dog.

But a smaller dog like a 40 lb pit bull could be a concern.





On dogs in general:

Since most of us probably plan for 2 legged varmit trouble, the 4 legged ones can present some interesting challenges.

Shooting to COM isn't as sure a thing since the spine is located along the top of the body. so shooting to COM gets you a lot of tissue and bone and an eventual stop unless you can shot them in the head.

Deputy here shot a pit bull a little while back, shot him 3 times, the dog stopped attacking and ran away but ended up under a car with 3 bullet holes in it and trying to bite anything that came near it.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by APLP
Feel free to stick your pole in the water. Anyone interested in these ammuntion designs needs to hear what you have to say and the response. The biggest disservice to folks is for them not to find out what is fact and what is dissinformation. With respect to these rounds the proof is in what happens with each pull of the trigger and are the performance claims accurate.

I am interested in your thoughts or comments, if any, on this article:

http://www.afji.com/bullets/

[QuietShootr]

withdrawn.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by QuietShootr
I don't have a lot of interest in getting dogpiled SOCnet style.


My concern from some of the stories is that there are a lot of folks out there who may be the very paragon of steely-eyed operator killer type, who really aren't ballistics guys, and they're seeing performance typical of a Nosler Ballistic Tip or other hunting bullet...and since they're used to seeing the effect of Ball, it looks AMAZING to them - and that's where some of the stories originate.

QS

First we do not dog pile Professional Soldiers.com members. (Have you witnessed such an event on this board?)

Second, the only opinions I take into account are from those that have actually used LaMas ammo and can easily discern the difference between a hunting round and military FMJ. Some Quiet Professionals on this board know more about internal and external ballistics than most of the “experts� you read about in “guns and ammo� or teach at Gunsite. Do not confuse us with the police or any other U.S. LEO’s, we are not trained to merely defend ourselves. As to our offensive capabilities, well, you can go ask the Taliban, the al quada or the Iraqis how we rate.

Third, If you are going to state an opinion on this board ensure its an informed or at least an opinion based on decades of personal weapons, combat, or global military experience. The hunting of animals, shooting of steel plates and general fun shooting does not equate to weapons experience on this board.

TS

[Smokin Joe]

.45 bullets

230gr. Federal Hydro-Shok are a decent comerically available bullet same as the Speer Gold Dot.

I would recommend the 230gr Winchester SXT (was called the black talon a long time ago). The only problem with the SXT is that Winchester slapped an LEO only label on it. Truth be told is not LEO only they just market it that way so its a pain in the ass to find comerically. I personally favor it over any other comerically availalbe round because of the penetration and expansion, as well as its less likely to turn into an FMJ if your shooting through leather, denim, or hemp material. Its a great Personal Defense round.

I would like to check out LeMas. I have your video APLP it has scared the living shit out of everyone in my department.

As for Dogs:

Pepper Spray (provided there is little to no wind). An ASP baton across the nose is pretty good too. Hyper-aggresive dogs like pissed off pit bulls, require shooting them in the head. Or a Taser but that is kind of a one shot deal in a tense situation and extremely expensive for a personal defense weapon.

Just my .02 cents

[QuietShootr]

Deleted.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by QuietShootr
Deleted.

Hey, QS, don't go away! I will step up and we can debate this here.

I am amazed at the "experts" who bash this ammo because it does not conform to their test media, and have never fired a round in tissue.

I have fired rounds into hard armor, soft armor, contstruction materials, meat, and live tissue, in a half dozen calibers. I will readily admit that I have never had the opportunity to shoot at a gelatin block. Maybe one day, one will attack me and we will see. I have fired roughly 250,000 rounds of ammo in my 35 years of shooting, and know what a hunting round does, as well as military issue, defense loads, etc.

I cannot tell you how it functions, but as a user, I really don't care. I have never seen a round fail to perform as advertised, and I have seen several hundred fired.

I challenge you to produce some "expert" who has fired rounds, and disputes its performance in armor or live tissue.

"Experts" will tell you that it is impossible for a bumblebee or hummingbird to fly, but they seem to do pretty well at it despite being ignorant of aerodynamic theory.

How many rounds have you fired, and what is the factual basis for your disagreement? Look forward to your reply.

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by The Reaper
How many rounds have you fired, and what is the factual basis for your disagreement? Look forward to your reply.

I read QS to be saying that he has no experience with this ammo, but simply found the claims so amazing as to be literally incredible.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I read QS to be saying that he has no experience with this ammo, but simply found the claims so amazing as to be literally incredible.

So do you think that he is calling me (who does have experience with the rounds) a liar, or that he is taking someone else's word (who has fired the rounds) over mine?

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by The Reaper
So do you think that he is calling me (who does have experience with the rounds) a liar, or that he is taking someone else's word (who has fired the rounds) over mine?

TR

Well, since he withdrew the remark, I would not use the present tense. That being said, I think he suggested (probably unintentionally) that you may not qualified to characterize the effect of the ammo. More specifically, he suggested that you may not be familiar with non-ball ammunition and therefore may be exaggerating the effects of the LeMas.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Well, since he withdrew the remark, I would not use the present tense. That being said, I think he suggested (probably unintentionally) that you may not qualified to characterize the effect of the ammo. More specifically, he suggested that you may not be familiar with non-ball ammunition and therefore may be exaggerating the effects of the LeMas.

Yep, that is me, 30 years of killing, and I know nothing about bullets.

Wonder how many LeMas rounds he or his sources have shot?

I don't test strategic weapons either, but I think I could tell the difference between the effects of a 2,000 lb. iron bomb and a 20MT thermonuclear device.

TR

[QuietShootr]

Originally posted by The Reaper
Yep, that is me, 30 years of killing, and I know nothing about bullets.

Wonder how many LeMas rounds he or his sources have shot?

I don't test strategic weapons either, but I think I could tell the difference between the effects of a 2,000 lb. iron bomb and a 20MT thermonuclear device.

TR

Ok... Maverick is reengaging, against his better judgment. I haven't been kicked off a board in a while, so...

I have shot ZERO LeMas rounds. I know some folks personally who have tried to obtain some, and Stan Bulmer has remained curiously obstinate about allowing any kind of third-party testing. The only "scientist" I have seen (And I do not include myself in that group) who managed to get his hands on one (Doc Roberts) analyzed it and found nothing special about it at all. Bulmer has [WARNING, Opinion] engaged in an incredible amount of obfuscation and theatrical antics [/opinion] and that, alone, has caused me to doubt his/their veracity.

Sir, I'm not calling you a liar, or even doubting you. If you say the rounds are good, that's definitely a point in their favor.

by RL
I read QS to be saying that he has no experience with this ammo, but simply found the claims so amazing as to be literally incredible.

Exactly.

I'm naturally skeptical about something with so much hype attached to it. That's all. If they are as great as they are said to be, that's just nifty...but for me, I want to see more than what I've seen to trust them for myself.

Sorry if not being SF invalidates my opinion..but there it is.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by QuietShootr
I know some folks personally who have tried to obtain some....

Again, you are communicating with someone who HAS FIRED THEM, not tried to, not thinks, has USED THEM.

Originally posted by QuietShootr
Stan Bulmer has remained curiously obstinate about allowing any kind of third-party testing....The only "scientist" I have seen (And I do not include myself in that group) who managed to get his hands on one (Doc Roberts) analyzed it and found nothing special about it at all.

Really? Is H.P. White not a third party? IIRC, there is some out for military testing too. Since Roberts announced from the beginning that the rounds were "snake oil", it was impossible for them to function as claimed, and that any bullet that would not perform in ballistic gelatin was "only suitable for killing small furry animals" I am not sure that I would accept him as a "neutral" third party to fairly evaluate the product either. Looks to me like after more than a year of talking trash and conducting a major disinformation campaign, based on little, if any actual shooting, Doc has finally started to moderate his tone, but he remains a primary opponent of the bullet nonetheless. Last I heard, his position was that if the bullet would not perform in ballistic gelatin, he really didn't care what it did in tissue. Video, photos, XRays, necropsies of live tissue testing by Vets and Pathologists, high speed photography, first hand reports, are all available, and you would take the word of a dentist who has fired a couple of rounds and prefers to base his analysis on ballistic gelatin testing?

Originally posted by QuietShootr
Bulmer has [WARNING, Opinion] engaged in an incredible amount of obfuscation and theatrical antics [/opinion] and that, alone, has caused me to doubt his/their veracity.

Seems to me like the only time Bulmer has said much was in reply to allegations from Roberts, his toadies, and those who claimed that LeMas was under investigation. Is that over yet? What is the status or outcome?

Originally posted by QuietShootr
Sir, I'm not calling you a liar, or even doubting you. If you say the rounds are good, that's definitely a point in their favor.

Thank you. Not calling you names either, just trying to make a point here.

Originally posted by QuietShootr
I'm naturally skeptical about something with so much hype attached to it. That's all. If they are as great as they are said to be, that's just nifty...but for me, I want to see more than what I've seen to trust them for myself.

Am I presenting hype here? I would say that first hand accounts and observations would beat a ton of "hype" coming from Doc and his sycophants, but you have to judge for yourself.

You want to see more, you want someone who has said all along that they didn't work in gelatin to accept them, or you want to hear someone who has fired the rounds on tissue say that they work?

Originally posted by QuietShootr
Sorry if not being SF invalidates my opinion..but there it is.

Not at all, all are free to offer an opinion, but the fact that you have not fired the rounds, and some of us here have, makes your opinion significantly less valuable to public debate, IMHO.

Hey, TS, would a conventional hollow point or other hunting round do what the pics I sent you demonstrated?

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by The Reaper
you would take the word of a dentist who has fired a couple of rounds

Must . . .

resist . . .

temptation!

Going back to my corner now. LOL :D

[QuietShootr]

Am I presenting hype here? I would say that first hand accounts and observations would beat a ton of "hype" coming from Doc and his sycophants, but you have to judge for yourself.

No, not at all.

Hell, if they work as advertised, I want some! I'm not anyone's sycophant. You just don't really believe there can be such a creature as an elephant until you see it for yourself, you know?

[APLP]

Originally posted by QuietShootr
[B]Ok... Maverick is reengaging, against his better judgment. I haven't been kicked off a board in a while, so...

I have shot ZERO LeMas rounds. I know some folks personally who have tried to obtain some, and Stan Bulmer has remained curiously obstinate about allowing any kind of third-party testing. The only "scientist" I have seen (And I do not include myself in that group) who managed to get his hands on one (Doc Roberts) analyzed it and found nothing special about it at all. Bulmer has [WARNING, Opinion] engaged in an incredible amount of obfuscation and theatrical antics [/opinion] and that, alone, has caused me to doubt his/their veracity.

Over 45,000 BMT military and L/E rounds have been provided to authorized individuals, commands, or government agencies just here in the US. To my knowledge with exception of some R&D 50 cal rounds handed off to a third party not a single round has failed to perform as advertised from the weapon systems they were designed to be fired from.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a single authorized individual besides Gary Roberts who has requested rounds for testing that were deinied access by me.

Your information sources are AFU, and the dissinformation provided by such sources and those who propogate that dissinformation continue to impede the potential benefit these bullet technologies can deliver to both operator survivability and mission success within the small arms operational environments.

[Air.177]

See ,That's the beauty here. Everyone is informed, No dogpiling, no banning. Information freely exchanged between individuals with differing knowledge and experience.

[QuietShootr]

Anyhow, I do like the Ranger T Winchester in .45, as I said. Although I haven't killed nearly as many things with it as I have the HydraShoks. Availability is an issue, but it is out there - you just have to shop around.

[Psywar1-0]

QS,

You do know that these are the rounds Im carrying down range right?

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by QuietShootr
Anyhow, I do like the Ranger T Winchester in .45, as I said. Although I haven't killed nearly as many things with it as I have the HydraShoks. Availability is an issue, but it is out there - you just have to shop around.

QS:

I thought we were having a mature conversation here, asked you to present your facts, said that I would present mine.

I see that you were unhappy with that, and decided to invite some of your friends from ar15.com to join in. That would be fine, but remember that this is the home of the Quiet Professionals, and I consider your remarks over there soliciting support to be inflamatory and disrespectful.

This was not intended to be a flame fest, or a dog pile, but a statement of personal experience. What are your intentions with the below comments and personal attacks, copied verbatim from ar15.com? Did you need back-up that badly, or am I not entitled to share my personal experiences in actually shooting the ammo?

Did I attack your opinion of the ammo you have actually had experience with? Your "challenge" is weak.

Do we invite people from here to go to the ar15.com site and start trouble?

I am very disappointed in you, your personal slander, and your pitiful cry for help on the other site. Be a man, speak to what you know, and live with the consequences of your actions.

TR


Originally posted by QuietShootr

QuietShootr
Team Member
Unrepentant Sinner

Joined :: August 2001
Post Number :: 5190

IN, USA

Fuck Bulmer and his snake-oil bullshit.


or go visit professionalsoldiers.com in the ammo forum. Those guys are just SOLD on it, and they'll slap the peepee of anyone (me) who dares to challenge Bulmer.

[KevinB]

QS,

Ouch.

I have stopped posting in the ARF ammo area for the above reasons, as it appears that my last 17 years spent sending lead down range did not measure up to some dentistry and some gelatin infused margaritta's.

I have shot pistol and rifle BMT ammo, and seen the effects with my eyes on live tissue. After that I have determined that the gello crowd is missing something here.


Now back to the show


:munchin

[Smokin Joe]

QS: What creds do you have again? Other than having a tactical store?

Present and future customers want to know?




EDIT TO ADD: My mistake! He doesn't have a Tactical Store. :o

[Team Sergeant]

It would seem we have a coward on our hands. One who starts shit and runs away with his tail between his legs.
Then again, maybe he’s a smart boy, not wanting to go toe to toe with a Quiet Professional.
You know I don’t mind people with differing opinions, I do however despise sissies that run from fights only to seek cover under mommy’s apron.

QuietShootr;

I’m not going to ban you for a difference of opinion, being a coward, or even badmouthing our site. Nope, your screenname will live on in shame on this board.
No need to thank me, Coward.

Team Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Special Forces
(Retired)

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by QS-
Ok. Let's get a few things straight.

Reaper - I did not, and will not slander you. I offer no excuses for saying what I said on AR15 yesterday. My explanation is that I was pissed off, and I didn't want to get into a brawl here. I wasn't calling for help, I was venting, and I chose not to do it here. This is a different kind of site, and I didn't want to start shit here...hence my reluctance to discuss this subject at all.

TeamSergeant - You, on the other hand, are a condescending prick. You seemed determined to start an argument with me from the time I posted on this thread.... well, you got it. I don't hide from anything or anyone, anywhere. Labeling me a coward because I chose to disengage from an argument that I didn't want in the first place is out of line. If you think I'm AFRAID of an argument, or of YOU, you're sorely wrong. I have tried to disengage from this confrontation, and you seem intent on continuing it to satisfy your own enormous ego. Are you so bored in your retirement that you have to resort to fucking with people on the Internet to get your daily ego boost? Seems to me that if you were the bad-ass you want me to believe you are you wouldn't have the need to slap around an insignificant coward like myself.:rolleyes: They probably have a mod position available at SOCnet if you feel the need to flame airsofters and wannabees.

Now, I'm done with this. To everyone else, I sincerely apologize for this mess, and for allowing TeamSergeant to troll me into this type of confrontation.

First, I think you owe APLP an apology for the name calling and innuendo, regardless of the site you posted it on. You do not know enough about him or his product to be talking about him like that. You can take whoever's word you want for the efficacy of the ammo, but as I have already stated, it has performed as advertised for me, repeatedly and in a variety of media. You don't believe me, fine, no need to go running for your support section to talk trash, say it here.

Your venting has resulted in several "Guests" coming over, but who have not yet registered or posted. I hope they have the good sense and manners to comport themselves accordingly.

I am sorry that you feel that way about the Team Sergeant. I know him, and he is an honorable man and a superb SF NCO. I know you only by your reputation and your actions, and they have led me to conclude the same thing as the TS. BTW, this is not a dogpile, the TS can take care of his own battles, I am referring to your posts on ar15.com and your most recent post above.

You actions here did not make you a coward, your words on ar15.com clearly did. When you are having an adult conversation, with people citing personal experiences, and rather than present your own facts, you choose to go somewhere else where you have supporters and talk trash, slander, and make ignorant comments about other people, their product, or this site, you Sir, are displaying cowardice and are frankly, acting like a little punk. Hiding behind your mommy's skirt while talking about someone or slamming a product you have no personal experience with is not appropriate for a quiet professional or an adult.

You did not show fear here prior to your last post, but what you did on ar15.com was unconscionable. Your threats to the TS, name calling, attacks on him, and demeanor when you should have been contrite, have shown your true character on this site as well, and it is sorely lacking.

If you really wanted to disengage, you would publicly apologize to Stan Bulmer and the TS, admit on ar15.com and here that you have no personal experience with the LeMas ammo, you are just parrotting what you have heard elsewhere on the internet.

Till then, you ARE a punk.

Now I guess you can go to ar15.com and call me names as well.

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Sir Reaper, If the gentleman, QS, had even the faintest clue who he'd just called a "condescending prick" I don't think he'd ever said it. I fear it may be a bit late to help this individual in matters of etiquette.

[Team Sergeant]

I have no time for those with enough weapons experience to fill the head of a thimble and still have room to swim.

I have zero tolerance for those who run away only to talk shit on other websites.

Patience is over rated. The punk is gone.

TS

[Sacamuelas]

Does the Lemas .45 personal defense load create significantly higher internal pressures on the gun itself and recoil (on my hands) compared to a .45 +P personal defense load? I am currently shooting 230 grain Speer LE rounds.

The reason I ask, I carry a Kimber 4" .45 with full size Al frame as my CCW. I want to make sure they recommend shooting the Lemas thorugh a AL frame weapon.

Note: After function testing in my weapon, I will use the Lemas for carry only, not plinking at the range- for that I use 230gr FMJ standard range load.

[Roguish Lawyer]

LeMas ammo is not available to the public, is it? I thought it is military and perhaps LE only?

[Sacamuelas]

Yes, I am sorry counselor. Thank you. Let me repost my statement clearly.

I would "like to" ;) carry Lemas ammo in my weapon. Of course, I only "allegedly" carry Speer LE only rounds too. :D I do not and have not ever broken any laws, nor condone such.

This was for informational purposes only so someone who knows, please answer.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Does the Lemas .45 personal defense load create significantly higher internal pressures on the gun itself and recoil (on my hands) compared to a .45 +P personal defense load? I am currently shooting 230 grain Speer LE rounds.

The reason I ask, I carry a Kimber 4" .45 with full size Al frame as my CCW. I want to make sure they recommend shooting the Lemas thorugh a AL frame weapon.

Note: After function testing in my weapon, I will use the Lemas for carry only, not plinking at the range- for that I use 230gr FMJ standard range load.

The LeMas I have shot has all been within SAAMI pressure specs, though some may get close to the +P end of things. The only load I am aware of with restrictions is the .45 ACP with Glocks. I would not run the .32 ACP through a Seecamp, though frankly, it is designed to work with the Silvertip only. Less felt recoil with the LeMas, because of the extremely light bullets.

I have shot the .45 ACP LeMas through an alloy P-12 and P-14 without any problems so far. I have probably run more than 100 rounds through the P-12, no malfunctions or problems noted. You may need to change the recoil spring for your Kimber, depending on what it is set up to shoot now.

If you can afford to plink with ammo that costs what the LeMas does, you have deep pockets indeed. That is the only downside I have seen to the ammo.

TR

[Sacamuelas]

Thank you Sir. That answered my questions.

[swatsurgeon]

Gentlemen,
if I may take this discussion in another direction. Some of you have touted the hydroshok, I do not. In my trauma surgical world it has been the #1 non-expanding bullet I've dealt with. It also expands to a much smaller degree than other high quality ammo, i.e., gold dots, SXT, STAR, etc. I have removed a several hundred bullets and the hydroshoks continue to underwhelm me.
We are all looking for the best stopper and ofcourse know shot placement is #1 for that regardless of the caliber but since we depend on exsangination to do the job, we try for a larger permenant cavity....unless loaded with a high powered round then temporary cavity comes into play (I state this from an operative point of view, no gelatin, etc).
I strongly recommend to those that can't count on shot placement 102% of the time, i.e., to the snot locker, that they carry something other than a poorly expanding modern bullet design.
I have attached 3 recovered 9mm bullets, from left to right
corbon, hydroshok, black talon (unexpanded in an officers vest)

more pictures of recovered expanded bullets are available upon request.

respectfully submitted
T-2

[Smokin Joe]

Doc,

Have you had to deal with any Winchester SXT (aka Black Talon) wound cavities?

I'm curious what they will do in a human torso...not gelatin....I have seen those results.

Thank you

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by swatsurgeon

more pictures of recovered expanded bullets are available upon request.

T-2

OK, I'm requesting more pictures !!!

[Polypro]

School me if i'm wrong:

Penetration has more to do with projectile weight than velocity.

Ie. Given the same projectile design (say RA9TA 127's and RA9T 147's), the slower, heavier round will penetrate further than the lighter, faster one? This goes toward the dog question. (a quick search of Winchester and Federal didn't yield penetration data).

Regarding "LE Only" ammo, for those who don't know: It isn't law, only policy. I order Ranger SXT through a local shop.

More pics of removed popular carry ammo = yes please:)

P

[Ambush Master]

Originally posted by Polypro
School me if i'm wrong:

Regarding "LE Only" ammo, for those who don't know: It isn't law, only policy. I order Ranger SXT through a local shop.

P

Need to be very careful on that subject. Some of the ammo (LeMas) discussed here is "VERY AP" and therefore very illegal for non-military/LEO types.

[APLP]

Originally posted by Ambush Master
Need to be very careful on that subject. Some of the ammo (LeMas) discussed here is "VERY AP" and therefore very illegal for non-military/LEO types.

There are federally mandated technical handgun bullet construction guidelines which define legal definitions for what is classified as AP.

Le Mas Ltd. works exclusively with dedicated Military and L/E BMT ammunition product lines and as such provides ammunition to authorized personnel only, without exception. There are no conventional bullet designs which can deliver the operational requirements which the BMT bullet designs bring forward to the end user.

With respect to both hard and soft armor penetration capability, both bullet construction and velocity effect terminal performance. We work with specific bullet designs in the same caliber which provide equal performance with respect to hard barrier penetration and living tissue destruction yet can also be very resistant to penetrating soft barriers. Rounds which are designed to provide the operational requirement to penetrate soft barriers can be optimized to either fragment or retain structural integrity similar to expanded HP in living tissue.

Depth of penetration and resulting fragmentation patterns when impacting bare living tissue is controlled through bullet construction's rather than providing additional weight to the projectile.

Hope some of this information helps with respect to the Le Mas ammunition.

[Bill Harsey]

APLP, Thanks.

[Sacamuelas]

APLP-
ex. B. Thomas, I know he is a former Navy SEAL but how did he acquire the rounds?

I used his name only because I was doing online research on BMT and Le Mas... his article and testimonial on your ammo pops up everywhere including the Army Times.

I am unclear now after Poly's post. Would it be considered illegal to have LeMas rounds in a firearm in the US if you are not LE or military? Or is it just company policy to not distribute them to civies?

Any help AL or RL on the legality issue if APLP doesn't know the specifics? . :munchin

[Polypro]

Let me clarify...I'm not talking LeMas. Most here can't get it, and if it's classified as AP, it *is* restricted. If it isn't, but LeMas has a policy that it enforces...same thing. All I was saying is the Ranger SXT is touted as LE only (in name only) but can be ordered, there is nothing illegal about it. Now whether Winchester knows what their distributors are doing or not...and care, I don't know.

The penetration question was the same deal...standard ammo, not LeMas.


Sorry if I confused.

P

[Sacamuelas]

Thanks Poly.

I guess the question then really is:

Do any of the LE/mil .45 Lemas ammo types fall into the restricted "AP" federal guidelines?

If not, then it is not illegal to possess or use, it is a matter of availability. I am not trying to subvert your companies rules APLP, I just want to know the legalities of this type ammo.

I would sure like to get a few boxes of the .45 ammo that can "provide equal performance with respect to hard barrier penetration and living tissue destruction yet can also be very resistant to penetrating soft barriers." Is there anything commercially available with similar type performance that you would actually recommend?

What exactly would this particular Le Mas round that you described above be named? :munchin

[Sacamuelas]

Found this in another thread currently active. APLP, can you confirm the statement about AP. Thank you

Originally posted by The Reaper
APLP may also be able to speak on the legalities of the ammo, but I do not believe that any of the versions fall under the statutes regarding AP ammo.
HTH.
TR

[Alex F]

Saca,

It appears that APLP *IS* AP ammo, therefore unavailable to non-LEO/Mil personnel.

There's another post in this forum about this, and the advice was to use the RBCD ammo as it's functionally identical save the AP.

Regards

[Air.177]

Originally posted by Alex F
Saca,

It appears that APLP *IS* AP ammo, therefore unavailable to non-LEO/Mil personnel.

There's another post in this forum about this, and the advice was to use the RBCD ammo as it's functionally identical save the AP.

Regards

I Have heard less than glowing reviews of the RBCD ammo, anyone interested can PM me for details, I don't want to discuss such things in the open, as they are only based on what I have HEARD.

[swatsurgeon]

more pics tomorrow...
the talon and SXT are different...as per my in-body investigation, excellent expansion with both but the talan had the probability of non-expansion especially if passing through some types of clothing and then the liver...the 'cup' would get filled and render it like a ball ammo...I have seen it 2 times. The SXT I have not seen any not expand (limited experience of 8 or 9 patients with it). I'll post the pics of both and some others. I can tell you the Ranger hot stuff gives an impressive temporary cavity for a handgun round, i.e., alot of local damage of tissues away from the permanent track, especially in the liver...I think I have a pic of that too????
Until tomorrow...............
T-2

[APLP]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Found this in another thread currently active. APLP, can you confirm the statement about AP. Thank you

Current federal guidelines define the parameters for handgun ammunition that can be classified as AP based on bullet construction materials, some states have classified AP handgun ammunition based on penetration performance in soft armor.

The Military and L/E BMT handgun ammunition does not meet the requirements for definition as AP under current federal guidelines.

Le Mas Ltd. restricts access to the APLP bullet designs to authorized personnel only as company policy, and as many have complained, we control its distribution without exception.

There are many critics of the BMT ammunition who have made efforts to prohibit access for those who provide services to both the US Government and Law Enforcement communities who they themselves profess to serve. Neither myself or Le Mas Ltd. provides public information concerning which groups of personnel who provide such services currently utilize the BMT ammunition.

With respect to questions concerning the non restricted citizen ammunition manufactured by RBCD, I can honestly state I would carry those bullet designs caliber for caliber before any of the currently available conventional bullet designs. I have not tested the newer RBCD "tactical" series of bullet designs, but they have been manufactured to be very resistant to penetrating soft body armor. The hard barrier capability is still much greater than any other conventional handgun bullet design yet will also provide significantly reduced over penetration potential through urban construction materials.

Sorry to have such a long response. I will be happy to provide any appropriate additional information if requested by members of the forum with the approval of TS, as I do not provide information for purposes of marketing the BMT ammunition on the Professional Soldier forum.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
Any help AL or RL on the legality issue if APLP doesn't know the specifics? . :munchin

This is not my area. Sorry.

[Jgood]

I have a question i saw the Pic of the 3 rounds and how they have expanded, at what distance had those rounds been fired. what are the chances of a round expanding to full potential at close range? The distance should make a difference right i.e. round 1 at 20M, 2 at 10M and 3 at 5M. wouldnt number 1 expand the most and cuz the most trauma..



would also like more photos

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by APLP

Sorry to have such a long response. I will be happy to provide any appropriate additional information if requested by members of the forum with the approval of TS, as I do not provide information for purposes of marketing the BMT ammunition on the Professional Soldier forum.

If information is requested by QP's or Mod's then its not considered advertising. Stan, Please feel free to post what you'd like.

TS

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by Jgood
I have a question i saw the Pic of the 3 rounds and how they have expanded, at what distance had those rounds been fired. what are the chances of a round expanding to full potential at close range? The distance should make a difference right i.e. round 1 at 20M, 2 at 10M and 3 at 5M. wouldnt number 1 expand the most and cuz the most trauma..



would also like more photos


Jgood,

I’m no Ballistician but a bullet should expand just as much at point blank range as it should at 20m.

[APLP]

Originally posted by swatsurgeon
more pics tomorrow...
the talon and SXT are different...as per my in-body investigation, excellent expansion with both but the talan had the probability of non-expansion especially if passing through some types of clothing and then the liver...the 'cup' would get filled and render it like a ball ammo...I have seen it 2 times. The SXT I have not seen any not expand (limited experience of 8 or 9 patients with it). I'll post the pics of both and some others. I can tell you the Ranger hot stuff gives an impressive temporary cavity for a handgun round, i.e., alot of local damage of tissues away from the permanent track, especially in the liver...I think I have a pic of that too????
Until tomorrow...............
T-2

Just so folks know, Swatsurgeon will be provided by Le Mas Ltd. with any and all of the BMT Military and L/E ammuntion designs for SME comparative testing that he would be willing to conduct.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Jgood
I have a question i saw the Pic of the 3 rounds and how they have expanded, at what distance had those rounds been fired. what are the chances of a round expanding to full potential at close range? The distance should make a difference right i.e. round 1 at 20M, 2 at 10M and 3 at 5M. wouldnt number 1 expand the most and cuz the most trauma..


Unless a bullet was right on the ragged edge of functioning, a few meters should not make a difference.

You combine a marginal bullet with a short barrel, and a heavily clothed target, you MIGHT see a performance drop off in 20m., but it would be unlikely.

50m. and up, you are much more likely to see a handgun bullet overpenetrate and underexpand.

Good bullets are designed to work over the effective range of the typical weapons chambering it. I would expect a well designed pistol round to be effective from a service length barrel from muzzle out to 100m. or so, and perhaps to 75% or so from a short barrel.

Just my .02, HTH.

TR

[swatsurgeon]

as promised, here are the 4 expanded bullets.
G.S. = golden saber
H.S. = hydrashok
B.T. = black talon
SXT = Ranger SXT
all were removed from real live people. The question about 'collateral' damage from these is short. The HS showed no damage except the true permanent cavity (direct wounding channel), the BT and SXT ripped up alot of tissue within 1-1.5 inches of the permanent cavity except where they went through the liver and cracked it significantly, the SXT more so than the BT...I bet it was a +P or +P+ and the liver 'shattered' pretty significantly (can't put my hands on that pic...it's somewhere). The GS made a nice track though the intestines with a little more collateral injury than I would have expected. The only patient that died from any of these was the SXT patient. Shot through the chest, through the diaphragm, through the liver and right kidney. The thing that got him was the inferior vena cava was lacerated by one of the sharp leaves and by the time I was able to get my hands around it to repair it his shock state was irreversible. If it wasn't for that I think he would have survived.
The advantage to all of these, except the HS, is that if they properly expand and "close" to a large blood vessel, one of the sharp open leaves of the bullet may lacerate that vessel and increase the chances of a faster exsanguination....the talon was report as a 2-5% increased chance of this very thing...not a lot to hope for, hence why shot placement truly is so much more important.
High powered bullets are a different story. I'm not at all as familiar with their ballistic profiles, bullet for bullet, as I am for handgun rounds. I will attach some pics of their damage.

[Penn]

I recently purchased 100rds of Federal Tactical 185 Gr. Hydra shock +P .45 cal-for my G-21--Illegal in NJ outside the home. Reason for purchase is absolute stopping power in the home.

I have read the excellent LaMas science project experiment by TR and the .45 cal Thread by TS, and the Glock 21 Thread in which a Glock explodes, whether it’s due to the unsupported chamber unable to accept the pressure as described by TR, or faulty ammo was not determined.

My question is simple, based on the above info, how concerned should I be using the FedTac ammo rather than standard .45 ball ammo in my weapon. Estella is still on the .22, but we speak about her need to fire a heavier caliber. I don’t want some BS going down on her first shot.

[The Reaper]

I recently purchased 100rds of Federal Tactical 185 Gr. Hydra shock +P .45 cal-for my G-21--Illegal in NJ outside the home. Reason for purchase is absolute stopping power in the home.

I have read the excellent LaMas science project experiment by TR and the .45 cal Thread by TS, and the Glock 21 Thread in which a Glock explodes, whether it’s due to the unsupported chamber unable to accept the pressure as described by TR, or faulty ammo was not determined.

My question is simple, based on the above info, how concerned should I be using the FedTac ammo rather than standard .45 ball ammo in my weapon. Estella is still on the .22, but we speak about her need to fire a heavier caliber. I don’t want some BS going down on her first shot.

IMHO, you should be fine.

TR

[CSB]

I'm no ballistics expert, but I am an avowed .45 caliber ACP kind of guy.

The first four rounds (one in the chamber, the top three in the magazine) are this:

http://www.thegunzone.com/powrball.html

Those are 165 grains, with an advertised 1,225 fps and 550 ft/lbs at the muzzle. Some observers think they have too little penetration, but that can be an advantage when you can't pick your backstop.

The bottom four in the magazine are 230 grain FMJ.

That combination is based on wargaming in-house and out-of-house threats, in which the most likely series of events is a close range face to face criminal (or dog); but four shots later will probably require penetration of an escaping car or behind cover.

I've never pulled the trigger to test my theory, but the one time I pulled the pistol out of my holster and aimed it at three punks beating the hell out of another kid seemed to back up my planning. Two of the three ran for their pickup truck, leaving me one on one with the third. He surrendered (after a foot chase) but if it had turned into shots fired it probably would have been four in the open, then four into the pickup truck.

[Ken Brock]

hadn't seen this post till now

I would definitely be concerned with 230 hardball exiting a 100 lb pitbull

My current carry is Federal 230 grain HST +P

I actually shot a deer with this ammo (approximately 135 lb) and the round expanded perfectly and was caught under the skin on the off side

I bought a replacement barrel for my Glock .45 so that I could shoot LeMas ammo but I never got around to ordering any

several people whom I respect very much on this board suggested the LeMas and I talked to Stan on the phone but never ordered it

[rdret1]

but four shots later will probably require penetration of an escaping car or behind cover.

I've never pulled the trigger to test my theory, but the one time I pulled the pistol out of my holster and aimed it at three punks beating the hell out of another kid seemed to back up my planning. Two of the three ran for their pickup truck, leaving me one on one with the third. He surrendered (after a foot chase) but if it had turned into shots fired it probably would have been four in the open, then four into the pickup truck.

I would think you need to be careful about that. Once the suspect is fleeing or retreating and no longer a threat to anyone, not using deadly force to effect his escape, you will no longer be covered legally under the use of deadly force and can be charged yourself under both/or criminal/civil. (Tennessee vs. Garner; in North Carolina also N.C.G.S. 14-34; 14-32; 14-17; 15A-401(d)(2))

[ktek01]

Im sold on the Le Mas, but since I cant get it the point is moot . What I need is a good choice in a non-LE only .45 round. My carry is a Glock 36 so I need something that will expand at self defense range's from a short barrel. Any thoughts?

[Smokin Joe]

Im sold on the Le Mas, but since I cant get it the point is moot . What I need is a good choice in a non-LE only .45 round. My carry is a Glock 36 so I need something that will expand at self defense range's from a short barrel. Any thoughts?

Their is no restriction on LE or non-LE ammo. Those are restrictions that the manufacture puts on themselves which I believe is just a marketing technique.

That being said my personal favorites are:

1) Winchester SXT 230 gr +p+
2) Speer Gold Dot 230 or 185 gr +p+
3) Corbon 230 gr +p+

I base my opinion on several different officer involved shootings where the bad guy(s) were put down (or not) with the above ammo. The most effective in my unprofessional opinion was the 5 rounds of the Winchester SXT 230 gr +p+ from 12 yards away. All shots were within a 6 inch group on the suspects sternum. The suspect was about 6 foot and 230lbs. It was ABSOLUTELY devastating.

YMMV

[The Reaper]

SJ:

Gotta agree.

For most people, the Ranger SXT should take care of the problems, as long as you do your part and put the bullets in the right place.

Too many people are looking for a magic bullet. As always, shot placement is the key.

TR

[The Reaper]

SJ:

Gotta agree.

For most people, the Ranger SXT should take care of the problems, as long as you do your part and put the bullets in the right place.

Too many people are looking for a magic bullet. As always, shot placement is the key.

TR

[ktek01]

Their is no restriction on LE or non-LE ammo. Those are restrictions that the manufacture puts on themselves which I believe is just a marketing poly.

That being said my personal favorites are:

1) Winchester SXT 230 gr +p+
2) Speer Gold Dot 230 or 185 gr +p+
3) Corbon 230 gr +p+

I base my opinion on several different officer involved shootings where the bad guy(s) were put down (or not) with the above ammo. The most effective in my unprofessional opinion was the 5 rounds of the Winchester SXT 230 gr +p+ from 12 yards away. All shots were within a 6 inch group on the suspects sternum. The suspect was about 6 foot and 230lbs. It was ABSOLUTELY devastating.

YMMV

I'll have to buy a hundred or two of each and see how they function in the 36. Speer Gold Dot is what the wife carries in her J Frame. We are both switching to the 36 though, after several hundreds rounds through rental guns we are both very happy with that one. I know she can shoot that well on the range, but she has no 2 way range time. Trying to get her into USPS or IPSC as well, we both spend every saturday at the range now. Thanks for the feedback.

[Smokin Joe]

I'll have to buy a hundred or two of each and see how they function in the 36....

Let me know what you think of the additional recoil shooting +p+ rounds through the G-36.

I know with my ultra compact it made a noticeable difference.

[ktek01]

Too many people are looking for a magic bullet. As always, shot placement is the key.

TR


TR, I couldnt agree more. First and foremost you must have a weapon, carry it, and be able to use it effectively. Bullet choice is near the bottom of the list, and stopping power isnt at the top of the list for choosing a round IMO. The chosen round must function properly in your weapon, which is why Im choosing several and testing them in my weapon of choice. I want the most effective round that will function properly and I can shoot accurately. Stopping power comes last after all other requirements have been met, but you still have to be able to hit what you aim at. I think the list should look more like,

1: Shooter must attain and maintain proficiency

2: Weapon must be carried at all times, be 100% reliable, and at least be as accurate as the shooter

3: Ammuniton should function 100% in your carry weapon

4: Stopping power

All are important, but having a weapon and being able to use it are the most important. The rest, ammo, accessories etc is just trying to give yourself every possible advantage.

SJ I am out to hunt down ammo now and will test what I can find in the 36 this afternoon. Corbon and Speere may not be a problem, I did find SXT online if I cant source locally.