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reservetech
05-13-2008, 10:01
Question for you experianced crossfit people. I understand that the mentality of crossfit is to strengthen the whole body, cardio and anero. I have followed the program for about a month now but I seem to be losing some muscle mass. This is disturbing to me because work hard to keep myself larger than my ectomorph frame naturaly allows. My question then becomes, has anyone had sucess with a crossfit AND weight training program (along the lines of high weight/ low rep for mass) and still avoided the overtraining. If so please direct me to this info.

P.S. I eat at least 3000cal/day (w/ a macro breakdown of 40%pro 30%carb 30%fat) being 5'6 160 10%bf (so nutritionaly I think i'm ok)

Razor
05-13-2008, 13:26
I can't help you on the Crossfit thing, but I think the real question is why do you want to maintain lots of mass, assuming your strength/power remains somewhat stable?

reservetech
05-13-2008, 14:10
My strength has been consistant, that much is true. Its the power that I'm losing (concurently with size). I want to know if anyone has been able to find an adequate ballance for the two. I have been training hard in both areas and I dont want to be shortchanging myself or overtraining.

Surgicalcric
05-13-2008, 14:24
I found that I leaned out greatly when I did nothing but crossfit. While some guys are fine being lean I find I carry a ruck much easier when I have more muscle mass. I am one of those guys who can be lean and fast or muscular and a pack-mule which I will take any day of the week over being a speed demon. I am 5'6" 180 and am working to get back to the 190-200lb range.

I mix cross fit into my other routines but never do CF alone anymore.

OMMV

Crip

reservetech
05-13-2008, 14:57
Crip, would you say that keeping a high mass would disable others or myself with this dilemma in the pipeline? I know that all shapes and sizes (besides fat bodies) make it through, so barring mental ability, what is the ideal SF body. We know what body makes a good linebacker, wrestler, sprinter and marathon runner, what is the formula for the SF soldier.

JacobGL
05-13-2008, 15:38
Are you training at a crossfit gym or on your own? I have been doing strictly crossfit for about 3 weeks now and havent lost any mass. I may have lost power, but I wouldnt know because I havent been under a bench during these three weeks. I am lean to begin with 6'0'' 165 pds. Great question regarding ideal body type, hope a QP gets a chance to answer.

Surgicalcric
05-13-2008, 17:51
Crip, would you say that keeping a high mass would disable others or myself with this dilemma in the pipeline? I know that all shapes and sizes (besides fat bodies) make it through, so barring mental ability, what is the ideal SF body. We know what body makes a good linebacker, wrestler, sprinter and marathon runner, what is the formula for the SF soldier.

It really depends on the amount of body mass/muscle. Guys who look like Mr Olympia dont typically do very well however from the looks of your stats I wouldnt say thats a problem for you so dont worry about it unless you are trying to be Arnold.

On that note, there isnt a formula that I have seen and have found (in my limited experience) it is more dependent on the person, not the body type specifically as to who makes it and who doesnt. My team is mostly muscular guys with the Jr Bravo being the odd man out at 5'6"/160lbs. Other ODA's resemble 12 triathletes and others are a mix of both. Each bring strengths and weaknesses to the table and with that the vast majority have a desire to eliminate their weaknesses as much as possible.


...I am lean to begin with 6'0'' 165 pds...

I cant imagine any world where 6' 165# is lean. Sounds more like skinny to me, but then again I am a short guy.. ;)

Crip

Razor
05-13-2008, 18:12
I may have lost power, but I wouldnt know because I havent been under a bench during these three weeks.

Remember, power is work divided by time, or in this case, the ability to move a specified weight through a range of motion in the shortest time possible. Unless you're doing timed speed reps on the bench, that exercise might not be the best measure of actual power.

JacobGL
05-13-2008, 19:54
I cant imagine any world where 6' 165# is lean. Sounds more like skinny to me, but then again I am a short guy.. ;)

Crip

ouch :mad:

No really, I have tried many different work out routines and sports. I cant get past 175. I feel healthy at 165 and my pt scores don't suffer. Do you think I should have more mass going through the pipeline?

JacobGL
05-13-2008, 19:56
Remember, power is work divided by time, or in this case, the ability to move a specified weight through a range of motion in the shortest time possible. Unless you're doing timed speed reps on the bench, that exercise might not be the best measure of actual power.

You sound like a crossfit enthusiest Razor.

reservetech
05-13-2008, 22:05
To answer your question GL, I am doing the cross fit and weight training on my own accord (albiet the weight training is in a fitness club, if thats what your asking). Razor, by power I think hes not refering to the physics definition, moreso the competitive powerlifting definition. Purely, how much weight you can sling for a given low # of reps.

Razor
05-13-2008, 23:04
Actually, I'm not delving too deeply into physics, except for the basic understanding of power. I'm no powerlifter, but the fitness circles I frequent refer to power in terms of explosive movements, like an NFL lineman out of his stance, or a sprinter out of the blocks, or a boxer throwing a cross; in other words, functional, applicable power (often using a sports-related context). Think olympic lifts--cleans, snatches, jerks...moving a whole lot of weight explosively rather than slow, controlled reps. This translates into the ability to move quickly from a full stop, drive an obstacle out of your path while on the move, or deliver a decisive blow to a bad guy either dynamically or from a "sucker punch". Raw strength is good, but maximizing its delivery is a true force multiplier.

S3Project
05-14-2008, 00:05
Razor is correct. The sport of powerlifting is poorly named and really has little to do with power generation; it's more the ability to exert force, regardless of time, that is judged.

Compare to Olympic weightlifting, where power generation is the primary concern. In fact, power generation, not maximal strength generation, is probably the most important strength-related attribute for many competitive athletes.

The distinction between "maximal strength" and "power" is important to understand for training programming. Strength and power are intertwined with one another, but they are nonetheless unique and distinct strength qualities that need separate attention and training methods.

sleepyhead4
05-14-2008, 00:30
Here's my personal opinion on the ideal body type for SFAS and Q course and crossfit vs. weight training.

First off, I've always been a smaller guy. I graduated high school weighing about 125 lbs at 5'9". All through college I was no heavier than 130 lbs. I even went through ranger school weighing less than 130 lbs, 128 lbs to be exact. However, I never had issues with rucking and keeping up with the small or big guys during training and deployments. This continued on with SFAS and the Q course. Even though I tried to gain weight by lifting more and running less, I never got past 150 lbs because of the Q course schedule. Needless to say, I completed the course without much physical disadvantage even with the lack of "mass." So after this long winded explanation, my opinion is that there is no ideal size for SF, or any MOS for that matter.

As for crossfit and weight training, I've been mixing both for few months with more emphasis on weight training. So far, I've seen gain in strength, power, and mass but that's pretty easy in my case since I basically started out with none of those. I've also maintained or increased my overall fitness level. I attribute that to crossfit. By putting emphasis on what I think is more important to me, I've seen improvements without overtraining. Like anything else, I don't think you can have you cake and eat it too. So decide which one is more important to you and do a little more of that than trying to achieve balance, which can lead to overtraining and less improvement.

Surgicalcric
05-14-2008, 00:58
ouch :mad:

...Do you think I should have more mass going through the pipeline?

You are gonna need to grow some thick skin if my comment on your build got you worked up (as evidenced by your 'mad' smiley.) I assure you that you will get more of the same shortly.

As for your needing more mass for the course, I have already stated guys in the course and teams come in all shapes and sizes. You are the one who must decide whether you need to be larger or not, stronger or not, faster or not when the time comes for you to put out. Dont judge what you need to do on what others are doing, but by your own strengths and weaknesses.

I can attest to Sleepyhead4 being a smaller guy. However he somehow keeps up just fine with his guys... :D

Crip

reservetech
05-14-2008, 08:07
Agreed, Razor, I misinterpreted your second post about how powerlifting is'nt a true "power" indicator. By a purely power definition a person doing 100 sets of 100lbs on the bar, with speed, would generate more "power" than an individual using 270lbs once. Which is the true powerlifter? Who truly produces more power? So i agree.

On a different note. What I have gathered thus far, is that there is'nt a catch all formula for the SF soldier. The plethora of training and combat environments alow one to specialize. I.E. One team member could run forever with a light ruck (lithe cardio nut) and another may be a fireplug with the ability to kick a door into splinters (gym freak). So, it seems, the specific demands of SF alow a soldier to specialize, just as you do in MOS's.

JacobGL
05-14-2008, 08:21
You are gonna need to grow some thick skin if my comment on your build got you worked up (as evidenced by your 'mad' smiley.) I assure you that you will get more of the same shortly.

As for your needing more mass for the course, I have already stated guys in the course and teams come in all shapes and sizes. You are the one who must decide whether you need to be larger or not, stronger or not, faster or not when the time comes for you to put out. Dont judge what you need to do on what others are doing, but by your own strengths and weaknesses.

I can attest to Sleepyhead4 being a smaller guy. However he somehow keeps up just fine with his guys... :D

Crip

I was trying to make a joke with that 'mad' face, I asumed the mad face was a joke to begin with no? The comment on build is actually correct. I am rather skinny compared to other 6'0'' men.

Thanks fot he input regarding size, I will go with what I feel works best for me.

- Jacob

JacobGL
05-14-2008, 08:37
To answer your question GL, I am doing the cross fit and weight training on my own accord (albiet the weight training is in a fitness club, if thats what your asking). Razor, by power I think hes not refering to the physics definition, moreso the competitive powerlifting definition. Purely, how much weight you can sling for a given low # of reps.

I asked because CF gyms are good places to train. The environment is very competitive and this really gets the best out of me. Also, I wasn’t familiar with many of the workouts prior to starting i.e. muscle ups, burpees…

This is a gym in your city http://www.crossfitboston.com/. They tend to give military discounts at these gyms.

There is a CF gym at FT. Bragg as well.


- Jacob

Heretic
05-14-2008, 09:31
Here is my .02 Lifting and being able to bench 300lbs does not equate to power. Ask my echo as he was lying on the ground bleeding out and our weight lifting bravo could not lift him into the vehicle. By all means to each his own and if you want mass that is cool. You have to realize that there are 11 brothers counting on you to be able to lift carry drag etc them to safety. I feel that as a SF team guy you should concentrate your PT program to incorporate every task you might have to perform. Shooting, climbing, driving patrolling carrying and the likes. Crossfit seems to be the rage right now and I do enjoy the intense short workouts. However I still ruck with the dogs 3 times a week (yes my dogs carry a ruck) and run a couple of times a week along with swimming. I am more impressed with a dude that has the endurance and power to get a teammate out of the fatal funnel when required. Relying on adrenaline is BS again ask my echo.

3SoldierDad
05-14-2008, 11:07
My third son, 20 years-old, gets back from Ramadi in three weeks. He's putting his packet together to get an SFAS slot in the Fall. He's going from the reserves to the National Guard. He's aiming for the 20th SFNG try-out September 8th & 9th in Chicago to earn a shot at Selection. He's asked that I help train him. A huge priority for Mike will be power and weight gain. He's 6'0'' and 140. He's been as high as 155 after basic, but coming back from Iraq he's the first to admit that they didn't eat real well on their deployment - the goat was making a lot of our guys sick and their camp was the one in the news with the water issues. We'll have the summer to train.

Here's our goals...


High protein diet - gain 2 to 3 pounds a week for 13 weeks = 172 lbs. Been talking to the GNC folks. Reading literature online.
Power training - High weights, low reps. Free weights and machines; combined with core power exercises - sledge hammer on tractor tire, tractor tire hill roll, medicine ball, weight sled, etc. ...Lots of push-ups, sit-ups, and pull-ups.
Cardio - 2 to 4 mile runs (three times per week) and rucks (two times per week; maybe, three times per week as we get close to September). We'll try to not overdue it; Mike already runs well with good times, his rucking is fine as well.
Generally following the regimen laid out in GET SELECTED by Major Martin and MSG Dodson
I think Mike will be burning 3,000 calories a day; we'll be aiming for 4,200 calorie daily diet. We'll play with things and see where the results start happening.
Get his current APFT from 270 to 300+ ...80/80/12:20


Any thoughts or feedback are welcome.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

Dan
05-14-2008, 13:52
High protein diet - gain 2 to 3 pounds a week for 13 weeks = 172 lbs. Been talking to the GNC folks. Reading literature online.

While a high protein diet is fine, you/he needs to maximize nutrient timing for recovery on his compressed timeline. Don't focus just on extreme levels of protein, but nutrition. I learned about the timing being key in the early 90's and had tremendous results from my experiences. Here's an example of what I mean from a book I haven't read, but have heard of in recent years:

... You train harder, you consume extra protein in your diet, but you just don't get the strength and power gains that you want. For the last ten years sports nutrition has focused on "what" to eat. The latest research from leading sports science labs now shows that "when" you eat may be even more important. Nutrient Timing adds the missing dimension to sports nutrition, the dimension of time. By timing specific nutritiion to your muscle's 24-hour growth cycle, you can activate your body's natural anabolic agents to increase muscle growth and gain greater muscle mass than you ever thought possible. Nutrient Timing is the biggest advance in sports nutrition in over a decade.

3SoldierDad
05-14-2008, 14:51
While a high protein diet is fine, you/he needs to maximize nutrient timing for recovery on his compressed timeline. Don't focus just on extreme levels of protein, but nutrition. I learned about the timing being key in the early 90's and had tremendous results from my experiences. Here's an example of what I mean from a book I haven't read, but have heard of in recent years:

Dan, that's super. I was going to ask you for a source and then googled "nutrition timing" and got a great article that backs-up your counsel.

www.utexas.edu/features/archive/2004/nutrition.html

Gracias...

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

reservetech
05-14-2008, 14:54
eat every 2-3 hrs.

consume 4000-5000 cal/day

macro-40%protein 30%carb 30%fat

Have your carb concentration in the morning, and fat at night.

High protein intake should be after anerobic workouts.

Eat clean!

Sample foods for carbs; brown rice, sweet potato, dextrose, wheat posta, heavy wheat bread.

Sample foods protein; eggs (half yolk, half whites), chicken (my favorite), red meats sparingly, nuts (fat also), tuna, other fish (great source of omegas)

I also strongly reccomend a whey protein powder, theres alot of brands out there, they all do relativly the same thing. Natures best and BSN are pretty good tasting. Go for quantity over quality, if price is an object. Proteins are moleculary similar and your body processes them generaly the same way.

Fats; included in those above.

Dont worry about other supps now, for the most part they are a waste of money... (I work in a nutrition store)

SLEEP, 8-10hrs, its when your muscles actually rebuild and GROW:lifter

I changed my cal intake to 4000cal to maintain my weight because of my increased cardio. If your son can manage more I suggest it.

Oh and I'm looking to go 20th also, either in San Antonio or Mass. Good luck and post his progress, It would be nice to see how a fellow pre selection candidate is doing. Good luck to your son!

Dan
05-14-2008, 17:00
Dan, that's super. I was going to ask you for a source and then googled "nutrition timing" and got a great article that backs-up your counsel.

www.utexas.edu/features/archive/2004/nutrition.html

Gracias...

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

Your all over it with that article and saved buying a book ;)

Leozinho
05-14-2008, 21:13
A huge priority for Mike will be power and weight gain. He's 6'0'' and 140.

I'd suggest reading "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe. Best instruction on how to squat, deadlift, clean and press (The section on squats alone is about 50 pages) and there's enough programming information to get the beginner started in strength training and building mass. Your son could follow Starting Strength for a few months and would make quick, easy gains in the big lifts.

However, the tryouts he's shooting for are coming up, so you are going to have to decide at what point you stop trying to get stronger and build muscle, and at what point you start working on rucking and running and the PT test.

While being strong never hurt, keep in mind that they don't test the squat or deadlift at SFAS. (Nor do they weigh you either.) I'd err on the side of getting him prepared for ruckruns rather than putting on weight.


To the orginal poster - For what it's worth my one rep max for the major lifts didn't improve and I didn't gain muscle when I did Crossfit. I am a former endurance junkie, and it took me a while to figure out I needed to build strength before working on strength endurance (which is mostly what Crossfit emphasizes.). I'm now doing a 3x5 program that focuses on squats and deadlifts. I'll go back to something similar to Crossfit when I get my strength where I want it. If you are already a big, strong dude and want to get "fitter", then Crossfit might be perfect for you. But for skinny bastards, it probably isn't the end all be all of PT programs.


However, the main page Crossfit WODs have evolved in the couple of years since I did it, and now feature a lot more max effort days, so others may have different results. If you want to continue with Crossfit and still improve your strength, read about Rutherford's MEBB program. Stands for Maximum effort Black Box and is a hybrid between powerlifting (or Oly lifting) and Crossfit metcon workouts. Another word of advice: If the Google leads you to the crossfit forum page on the internets, take everything there with a big grain a salt. It's big echo chamber where they think Crossfit cures cancer and not the place for independent thought.

Blitzzz (RIP)
05-14-2008, 21:20
I can see there is a lot of thought about what is needed to be an SF soldier. As has been mentioned there are many shapes and sizes. Just stay active and, focus on increased endurance at functional levels. In the end you will find that it's not the figure of the man, but the man himself. More mind than body.
I had a Team Leader that weighed 135 pounds and carried a 108 pound ruck and 56 pounds on TA-50 (more than his body weight). I on the other hand weighed 230 pounds and carried about the same weight. A proportional difference but the same loads and this is done for months in the woods, in the snow, in the desert, in the jungles, and mountains by many body shapes and sizes.

I will tell you all that there is an exercise system that will make you at least 20% stronger than your life time best and over double your aerobic and anaerobic endurance levels. you will not lose speed, will not get sore, no tendon strains or ligament tears. All done without DOMS.
It is a system I designed and have used for about 15 years. You can acquire a copy from http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/workout.pdf

Razor
05-14-2008, 22:47
3SoldierDad, something to consider given the compressed timeline is diet adaptation. By that, I mean that if you get your boy used to consuming a huge amount of calories at a specific macronutrient mix, his system might get a bit of a shock when he reports in to SFAS and he's not eating 4-5 meals a day at 4000 kcal each with a X amount of protein/fat/carbs. That said, I'd say do what you can nutrition-wise early on, but don't expect miracles, and no less than a few weeks out switch to a "normal" x3/day eating routine with expected mess hall proportions. SFAS is hard enough without feeling hungry and tired all the time.

Then again, I'm no nutritionist, so the above is simple opinion and carries no guarantees.

sleepyhead4
05-14-2008, 23:36
I can attest to Sleepyhead4 being a smaller guy. However he somehow keeps up just fine with his guys... :D

Crip

I'm starting to plump up a little these days, especially with all the team bbq's we're having in 1st GRP. :lifter

S3Project
05-16-2008, 20:48
Just a note - what I say has to do with training for strength and gaining weight in general. It may or may not be applicable to SFAS trainees, but nonetheless, I went on a 6-month strength block following Mark Rippetoe's as part of my military preparation. So, please use discretion...

If your goal is maximal strength gains, I highly recommend reading the "Starting Strength" book from cover-to-cover. Following the routine alone is not enough for most novices...proper execution of the barbell lifts is an intricate process. I'd also pick up "Practical Programming for Strength Training," also by Coach Rippetoe. The aforementioned books will doubtlessly increase your strength physiology IQ and prevent costly programming errors.

I was 6'0, 145 when I started Rip's routine. Got up to 6'0 185 within a couple months, and more-than-doubled my strength in quite a few lifts. I'm a wiry little hard gainer, so strength was always my weakness.

In my opinion, if you're trying to gain weight, nutrition shouldn't be complicated. Eat meat, vegetables, and drink a gallon of milk a day. Health is a long-term concern. But if you're training to be strong, I'd eat like it.

Blitzzz (RIP)
10-06-2008, 10:39
I hear these arguments all the time . Mass vs strength power etc. I invented and have put in PS.com a system of exercise that will Maintain power and increase strength by 20 percent as a Minimum and DOUBLE your anaerobic and aerobic endurance.. There is no system on the planet that does what this system does.
As a Note.. POWER is Strength X Speed. If you want to improve your performance increase both but do not loose speed.

I am working presently to get the Blitz into 5th group. It is unlike any other thing any of you have done.
It's benefits are Increased strength, increased muscle endurance, higher resistance to joint injury, Power.

Try it here: [url="http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files.workout.pdf]

Be strong Blitz.

frostfire
10-06-2008, 20:51
Try it here: [url="http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files.workout.pdf]



Broken link. The one you previously typed works
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/workout.pdf

Blitzzz (RIP)
10-25-2008, 22:36
Guys I have posted in the previos thread about "Blitzing". This is not the Blitz you can find on the net. This is the Blitz I invented some 16 years ago. There is no system on the planet that can make you more "powerful" and with greater Muscular endurance than this system.

It is the only system to do what it does. It strengthens you tertiary fibers. It is the ONLY system to do that. I have been trying to get it into 5th group and am waiting to present it. I have up loaded the system to PS.com and all of you are welcome to use it.
Guarantees are: a minimum of 20% strength over best life time.
Over doubled anaerobic and aerobic endurance.
increases length of time before Lactate threshold.
No loss of speed.
Increased resistance to tendon and ligament injury.

AN actual example of an exercise is: One man was working Bilateral knee extensions of 270#s X 142 reps /min...
that is a total work of 38,340# per min of work. You can not do this with any other system. Blitz

Intel_Airman
11-10-2008, 14:27
Reservetech,

I've been doing two a days for the last three weeks and here's what I've noticed. It's been a nice change of pace, because I haven't done a calisthenic style workout in a while. All of the pull ups, cleans, burpees, and thrusters are helping me open doors to new found muscle. I'm also starting to trim a little more bodyfat off I went from around 13% to 11% (I use calipers). 5 weeks ago I was 227 and now I'm 237 (at 6'3"). That's 10lbs, plus lbs in fat I replaced with muscle. Granted, it's probably the extra workout in the day helping and the massive calories i've been consuming at the DFAC; but there are a lot of different movements that I believe are helping my strength and size increase across the board.

I was really skeptical of crossfit because soooo many guys that I've worked with this year have gotten into it and praise it as the end all to working out. A few of the other guys and I joked that they had all joined a cult and started drinking the kool-aid. I looked at it like a fad and avoided it all year until now.

I feel that crossfit borders overtraining; most guys here do it six days a week and run. Most of them have added a good deal of muscle, but they didn't have a lot to start with so I chalk it up to typical beginner gains. Anyone who doesn't lift properly (squats, deadlift, bench) and focuses only on isometric movements never really see gains, and a lot of the guys I've seen were like this. I'm also a little worried to the strain that it puts on your shoulders. We've been doing the workout of the day on crossfit.com and it seems like our shoulders are getting blasted quite often. If you are doing shoulders in the gym, cut back and let those babies heal.

If I were you, I would try it. Work it in for a few weeks as something different. Get your extra calories, sleep at least 8 hours, and drink at least a gallon of water a day. It never hurts to change up the pace from time to time. But my counterparts that have stuck to it all year long are starting to look like skinny triathletes. Just my opinion. :lifter

ClemsonTiger
11-12-2008, 06:05
Disclaimer: I am not in the military, but have been powerlifting for a few years and think this may apply


You could look into a modified Westside style routine (powerlifting). I use this to increase strength and endurance simultaneously. In each workout I do one heavy lift and one lift for high repetitions, along with assistance work for weak areas. As an example, yesterday my workout was:

Squat: 135x10, 225x5, 275x3, 315x1, 365x1, 405x1
Deadlift: 135x5, 225x3, 315x24
Assistance work for abdominals
Flexibility work


Doing this kind of program has allowed me to gain size rather quickly while increasing my cardiovascular endurance. By throwing in a 12-20 mile mountain hike once a week and doing some other form of cardiovascular training daily, I feel that this regimen has allowed me to efficiently train all aspects of physical performance.

Blitzzz (RIP)
11-12-2008, 10:13
No matter what system you use, the Blitz system will increase strength, power, and endurance. It's done with no pain or injuries. Blitz