The Adventure Challenge [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

The Reaper

05-06-2008, 15:46

Let’s think outside the box here with a bit of survival and science fiction. H.G. Wells, or alternative sci-fi. Maybe an older version of the modern day adventure race.

I am going to ask that we limit responses to people over the age of 21 with significant field time.

You are in the prime of your life. You are approached and an interesting proposition is made. No, not that one.

A time machine has been invented, and in 30 days, a volunteer is going to be sent back to 1700, to assist with the initial exploration of North America. The continent is largely unexplored, and Daniel Boone has not yet been born yet. The mission is to explore the new nation, and keep a record of your travels. Our volunteer will cross the North American continent from the east coast to the west, alone, and report the results. He must start from an existing 1700 East Coast port city, and must finish at a designated location on the Pacific coast of California, Oregon, or Washington. The explorer will take a digital camera, digital recorder, and a PDA to record the journey. A return time machine will meet him at his declared destination and will wait for 30 days from your predetermined arrival date. If he has not arrived by then, he will be presumed dead and the machine autopiloted back.

The journey must be completed solo. If you accept the challenge, you will be allowed to take as much modern gear as you can personally carry, underneath period dress or in appropriate period baggage, at least till you leave civilization. You will not be allowed to stagger out of the time machine and cache hundreds of pounds of your gear. Assume a maximum of 100 lbs. At least you will not arrive naked, and have to go steal clothes from a punk, biker, or male stripper, so be thankful. You must be able to carry it yourself, but you will be given some gold so that you can purchase any items locally that you need during your travels. You will be walking, except when you need to cross water obstacles.

For the successful completion of your journey, you will receive ten million dollars.

Can this be accomplished successfully?

Do you accept the challenge?

Where do you start?

What route do you take?

Where do you plan to finish?

How long do you think it will take you?

What is in your field gear?

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?

What are your priorities?

How will you carry it?

What firearms will you take?

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?

What edged tools do you take?

What navigational aids do you take?

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?

Let’s think this one through as stated first, we can do branches and sequels later.

Thoughts?

TR

Pete

05-06-2008, 16:10

Just to add on a bit, it was you walk out with 100 lbs of equipment.

Weight? Oz's turn into pounds and pounds into tons.

Every item selected will be judged against the number of tasks it can help you with vs it's weight.

The mountain men of the early 1800s very very good at making do with limited goods. A good book on Indian sign language?:D

Roguish Lawyer

05-06-2008, 17:22

Lacking the requisite field time, I post here only to express my appreciation for creativity of this thread and my eagerness to read what I hope will be well thought-out and interesting responses.

The Reaper

05-06-2008, 18:57

Pete:

You are dead on the money.

100 lbs. is the maximum weight, and let me assure those of you short on rucking experience that you do not want to hump that very far or very fast.

Flexibility is one of the the keys to both survival and weight reduction.

I agree, the mountain men were excellent examples, especially those who travelled far and wide.

The ability to communicate could be very important, as would small trade items.

In answer to a PM question, yes, you could take maps and a GPS, if you can keep it powered. You might want a compass as well, just in case.:D

TR

Max_Tab

05-06-2008, 19:12

The Reaper

05-06-2008, 19:27

Is the 100lb's all you can take for the whole trip, or is it 100lb's of modern equipment? Once you got to the 1700's could you pick up some more gear from that time? Would you be able to get a horse, or have to hump the whole way? Trying to set the ground rules.

I think I would leave the GPS at home. :D LMFAO But a PDA with maps for the entire country in it and light weight solar rechargers would work. Plus within the 30 day's before I left I would learn how to figure out my location on the earth by using the stars (not sure what it's called) just like the sailor's used to. That way I would be able to use the maps on the PDA.

Max:

I do not personally think that you would want to hump more than 100 pounds for 3,000 miles, but if you want to try it, sure.

You must be able to carry it yourself, but you will be given some gold so that you can purchase any items locally that you need during your travels. You will be walking...

"Walking" and "carrying" the gear would pretty much mean no pack animals this trip.

Hence this line:

Let’s think this one through as stated first, we can do branches and sequels later.

I would not trust my future to any single battery powered device, but I agree on that possible use for the PDA, as long as I had hard copies of the maps and a compass.

I look forward to your input.

TR

Peregrino

05-06-2008, 19:39

I love the idea of a GPS in 1700. :rolleyes: When was the first constellation launched? Somebody needs to think a little harder. Nice challenge though. I favor the mountain man equipment approach and the Corps of Discovery route. Harder to get lost that way, after all they didn't have a clue either. Being a lazy b*****d, I'd much rather follow (paddle) the water routes than walk the entire distance. Blast match, 'hawk & bowie, quality boots, compass, water bottle, cook pot, tarp, long bow & arrows, quality pack, fishing gear, multivitamins, small med kit, trade goods, and a "one over the world" blood chit style map. Most of the items have already been discussed in detail in the various survival threads. Oh - 18 months, Boston (or maybe New York) to Astoria. It shouldn't take that long but I'm lazy and the fishing might be decent enroute.

ETA: Forgot to include my G-shock - wouldn't want to lose track of the pick-up time. :D

Max_Tab

05-06-2008, 20:22

This is off the top of my head I'll think about it some more and add to it at a later time

M-4 w/ ACOG 400 rds of lemas

Glock19 (3 x mags’ 1 box of 50) 95 rd

2 x Compass

Pvs 15’s w/ head mount

Light weight solar panels

Rechargeable AA’s X 20 with recharger (plugs into solar panel)

PDA loaded with map data (detailed map data covering the entire United States. Down to 1:50,000), survival data (extreme detail on edible plants, medicinal plants, building structures, snares, location of water, basically any survival tip you would need for each different region of the United States),

CLOTHING

Mountaineering boots (broken in)
7 pr heavy duty socks
2 x hiking pants
2 x wic away t- shirts
1 x silk weight top bottom
1 x fleece pullover
1 x shell top and bottom
1 x fleece pants
1 x pullover down jacket
2 x fleece gloves
1 pr trigger finger mittens

SURVIVAL GEAR

Lightweight axe
Small saw
4 cigarette lighters
fire starting kit
gerber
hunting knife
survival book
small map book of the US
2 x camel backs
Poncho
2man ten
6 bunji cords
150ft 550 cord
survival fishing kit

x-factor

05-06-2008, 20:44

1) This may be a little out there, but is there anything to the idea of carrying a man-portable UAV? I think you could drastically increase the amount of ground surveyed and decrease the amount of foot mileage.

2) In the same vein, maybe I've seen too much Star Trek, but is anyone considering the temporal ethics factor? By that I mean, are we taking precautions not to pollute the timeline by introducing modern technology to the people of the period (being seen with it, losing it, discarding it, having it stolen, etc)? Carrying a laptop and a tricked out M-4 might not be allowed by the time travel commission. ;)

For that matter, what about human terrain issues? Are you going to be allowed to interact with locals? To trade? Or is this strictly a covert survey?

EDIT: I reread TR's originally post and the Time Travel Commission does allow the gear and interaction, but I wonder if they wouldn't place other "temporal rules of engagement" on you as well to protect the timeline from pollution.

Go Devil

05-06-2008, 21:42

What specific regions or objects need surveyed on this mission?
I am assuming there is something of great importance to be recorded since this is a trip back in time with an abundance of information that is available currently. Are you interested in photographic evidence? Climate observations? Accurate census information? Flora/fauna? Recoverable items? Samples? Readings? Time line change?

If this is simply nature walk with a daily log of events through extremely difficult terrain among known indigenous peoples and more abundant wildlife.
Count me in with 100% probability of completion in 300 days. Start in the Spring.

I believe passing out of settled areas into displaced natives would be difficult so a complete history on continental U.S. natives is essential. I would prefer a path away from the Great Lakes region, tough crowd up there then and now.

A solid grasp of sign language would be critical.

.308 with 300rnds + 20GA with 300rnds
Hatchet 2 ea, Camp knife 20ea

I will post my extended kit list and route plan after further information on mission tasks.

Pete S

05-06-2008, 22:03

Can dogs be purchased/ bartered for to assist in hunting?

I would estimate about a 2 year expedition. Just so you don't have to hurry and if a harsh winter hits you can stop for a while.

It could be done without any modern equipment but It may possibly take longer then expected.
The most important thing to take with you would be knowledge. Knowledge of tool making, bow hunting, tanning, cordage making, flora and fauna, and friendly peoples along your route.

Roguish Lawyer

05-06-2008, 23:10

Smokin Joe

05-07-2008, 00:31

Kirafu Extended Mission Ruck w/ XTL and a lot of various pockets for the outside.
Kirafu 20̊ Slickbag
¾ size foam sleeping pad
3 compasses
4 season 2 person tent
MSR Water purifier X3
MSR water purifier filters for above purifiers x24
MSR Blacklite Camp pot set
Backpack fishing pole and various tackle
Emergency blanket
Surefire L7
1 Glock 17 w/ 3 mags +100 additional 9mm LeMas rnds.
Surefire X300 w/ 20 CR123 rechargeable batteries
NVG monocular CR123 rechargeable compatible
Solar panel recharging panels (and hook ups for the above batteries)
1 M16A4 w/ 3 mags +300 additional 5.56 LeMas rnds.
Schmidt & Bender 2.5-10x 56 scope with Larue mount
Field rifle/pistol cleaning kit
Leatherman
Harsey/Reeve Pacific knife
Reeve Skinner knife
Harsey T-3
Light weight camp axe
Field sharpening kit
Magnesium stick x2
Bic lighters x10
100 waterproof matches
Small saw
Poncho and Liner
Tevas/ river shoes
Mountaineering boots x2
Socks of various weights x8
Silk weight long underwear
Fleece pants
Sweat wicking t-shirt x3
Silk weight long underwear top
Fleece top
Hard shell top and bottom
Down jacket
Glove liners
Winter weight snowboarding gloves
Heavyweight mittens
Leather gloves
Laminated Hard copies of the following topics: maps 1:24,000 scale and all the other topics Max-Tab said.
Various plastic bags
First aid kit
300 ft 550 cord
100 ft of multipurpose nylon rope
Sewing kit
Salt, pepper, BIG bottle of Tabasco sauce
Multivitamins, antibiotics, and Motrin
Casio Pathfinder and G-shok
Sunglasses x2
camelback
Naglene bottle x2
Lots of Gold to barter with (on top of what is already given)

That should cover it. I might come back later and edit the list.

I plain to travel across the middle to lower states i.e. North Carolina, Tennessee, Northern Arkansas, Oklahoma, Northern New Mexico, Northern Arizona, and out by Los Angeles.

Time 2 years

Is it possible? Yes.

Could a modern day person be successful in the trip? Doubtful, it would take a very hardened and lucky individual to be successful in the trip. It be would an incredibly difficult journey to be done solo.

Oh, BTW when I told my wife about the scenario. She said she would take her phone, Ipod, debit card, and camera.......:D

Kyobanim

05-07-2008, 03:41

Oh, BTW when I told my wife about the scenario. She said she would take her phone, Ipod, debit card, and camera.......

What? no Tom Tom GPS with the fancy Help button on it? :D

Pete

05-07-2008, 04:30

I would ask "Why a tent?"

A small 6x7 tarp of fire retardent material would weigh a lot less. 2 short 3' or 4' poles poles could be cut before heading out into the grasslands. I'd go for 6 light weight aluminium nail stakes, though. Hate whacking ground anchors.

1700 is an interesting time. The Spanish had a good handle on Mexico and the Southwest US and FL. Lots of missions scattered about. The French in NO and the British along the east coast. The French were working up towards the Great Lakes.

Other than that? Natives. They would have had limited, if any, exposure to European equipment, much less, what you would be carrying. Simple things would seem like magic. Could pass as a "medicine man" and get extra help?

While the backwoodsmen pushed over the Apps in the 1700s, the "mountainman" we think of was really a short period in our history from about the 1820s to around 1845s.

The Reaper

05-07-2008, 06:23

Wow, looks like some of you guys are already packing.;)

I will try to keep this updated and answer questions regularly.

The mission analysis is normally the key, but in this case, it isn't the destination, but the journey. Do not overly focus on the recording of the journey beyond what was given above. Focus on the tools and skills you will need to get there.

The Time Travel Commission has not been invented yet. Once you clear initial white man country, pretty much any gear you have is GTG to use. If you are worried, wear an overcoat and put some skins over your ruck. There is no external moral component here either, you can do as you wish in your interactions. At the same time, you might think about what happened in Salem, Mass only eight years previously.

I see some people going extremely light, and some extremely heavy. Anyone planning on humping a laminated stack of 1:24,000s of the entire US needs to do a quick count and check the shipping weight. Those who plan to do it in their skivvies with a Kabar in their teeth need to step outside like that and spend a night on the ground.

I think the 18-24 month time estimate is correct, which means two winters. Those with a northern route may want to consider that. Do you plan on holing up for the winter, maybe building a semi-permanent shelter, or pressing on regardless? Pretty hard to travel and gather food in the winter while crossing the Great Lakes and Northern Plains on foot. Hostile natives are a legitimate concern, as they were for our forefathers. Good research might ID a route through friendlier country.

Starting in the spring with plans to cross in 300 days is unrealistic, but you are welcome to try it. Remember that you have to catch, kill, and prepare your food daily. Crossing two major mountain ranges, some huge rivers, and a desert or two, all on foot, might slow you down. Also consider that your schedule would put you in a Donner Pass situation, where you will be in the Rockies/Sierra Nevadas in January/February. You will probably not make 10 miles per day then, if you can move at all.

Some of the natives will definitely be hostile, but 5.56 will not be particularly effective on a bear or a moose. This is not strictly a combat patrol, though there will almost certainly be some.

Shotgun shells are notoriously poor tradeoffs in weight for game gathered. Let me know what 300 rounds of 20 gauge shot weighs.

If I have to live outside for two years, 'skeeters, rain, snow, etc., I am inclined toward the tent crowd, or at least a shelter of some sort. Winters will require a sleeping bag or equivalent skins (heavier).

Anyone wishing to present an opposing viewpoint, feel free to do so. I am not an expert at this, just trying to look at some alternatives to exercise my mind and reconsider some of my kit.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

TR

JumpinJoe1010

05-07-2008, 06:54

Kyobanim

05-07-2008, 07:45

Question: How long does one have between the time of accepting the challenge and actually starting the trek?

nevermind, I saw it.

nmap

05-07-2008, 08:20

I confess I have zero field experience.

That said, why is no one considering betalights instead of flashlights? The tritium has a half life of 7 years, they're low-weight, durable, and dependable.

LINK (http://www.beta-light.com/)

gagners

05-07-2008, 08:37

I'd venture a trek via a southern route - following roughly the I-20 to I-10 route. (before anyone says it - I know the interstates didn't exist then. I meant the general cooridor that they follow)

From an early port in SC (Charleston - est 1670) and one of the shortest routes (to San Diego) the distance is 2400-ish miles. At 10 miles/day that's 240 days. Rounded to 300 days to account for injuries, navigational...err...tangents, and "meetings" with locals, I think would be reasonable. for $10M, sure!

(After getting paid, could I then time travel back a decade or so, get the $10M changed to Canadian $ at 60%, then re-exchange it modern day??? :D)

Ideally leaving toward the beginning of the spring, that way I would miss the hurricane season while near the Gulf of Mexico - although the TVD would be cold. Using the southern route, I would miss most of the Rockies, save the foothills near the TX/MEX border. I can also bring less extreme clothing/shelter than if I were travelling along the northern route.

Without over thinking it, here goes - weight added for realistic analysis:

Pack:
Mystery Ranch 6500 - 5lbs
Foraging bag - .25lb

Water:
MSR MIOX purifier kit - .5lb
Rechargable batteries - 1lb
Recharger with lightweight solar cells - 2lbs (I mean, come on - if we can build a TIME-FREAKING-MACHINE, we can have lightweight solar, right???)
2quart collapsable canteen - .5lbs
100x iodine tablets - 2lbs

Food:
10x dehydrated meals (for emergency use only) - 3.8lbs
1000 waterproof matches - 2lbs

Shelter:
MSR FLING (2 person tent) - 3.5 lbs
Sleep system - 4lbs

Protection:
M4 with .308 upper and ACOG - 8lbs
300rds 308 - 13lbs
Weapon cleaning kit - 2lbs
Small hatchet - 3lbs
Multi-tool - 1lb
Sharpening stone - .5lb

Clothing:
3x moisture wicking layers - 1.5lbs
2x insulating layers - 2lbs
1x wind proof layers - 1lb
10x socks - 2lbs
Quality boots - 4.5lbs
contact gloves - .25lbs
mittens - 2lbs
knit cap - .25lbs
sewing kit - .5lb
Sunglasses - .25lbs

Nav:
2x Mag Compass - 1lb.
2x silk map

MISC:
Fishing line - 1lb
550 cord, 100ft - 1.5lbs
first aid kit - 3lbs
3x micro-flashlights - .25lbs
Novel - 1lb
perpetual movement watch - .25lbs
5x wire Carabiners - 1.5lbs

PR:
(for trading/gifts)
small polaroid camera with 100 exposures - 4lbs

(for demonstration/scaring the natives, if need be)
2x Whistle - .1lb
5x penflares - 2.8lbs

That puts my total weight - clothing included - at 82.7 lbs. At 10 miles/day, using sound field craft and the "waste not - want not" approach, I'd say it's definately doable. Although, 18 months would be better... that's 4.5 miles/day.

Count me in:lifter

gagners

05-07-2008, 08:45

Rope would be useful for roping a wild horse. The problem would be taming them.

Let us know how that works out for you... ;):lifter

TheShootist

05-07-2008, 09:22

I weighed a box of 25 20ga shells- 1.25 per box or about 15lbs for 300. That's a chunk of weight off of 100lbs. Most game birds could be arkansas'd on the ground or water with a rifle. I've heard the 5.56 Lemas is great stuff, but I'd be very nervous about pumping a 68 grain bullet into a pissed off 1000 pound sow grizzly bear. I think a .308 semi-auto (fn/fal for me) of some description would be the way to go.

The Reaper

05-07-2008, 09:29

I would look at a few things that would be invaluable over the long haul. First I would have a thread and needle kit that could assemble hides, since my clothes would wear out. Also I would use the standard firearm of the day, which would involve plenty of ammo. I would have one that is 50 caliber range for bear and buffalo, then a smaller 300/308 caliber for deer and such. Good axes would be needed to build a small house for waiting out the winters. Rope would be useful for roping a wild horse. The problem would be taming them. I would pack rations for those occasions I had a bad hunting day, and pack them on a mule, and ride a horse. A good sleeping bag would be a nice comfort to stay warm at night, along with a tent, because it is much easier to stay dry and warm when a sudden weather system takes shape. Books on plants that are poisonous, medicinal, and are good to eat. Maps would be a must, and I would bring sets of those, along with notebooks to record my journeys. I really wouldn't want many of the modern conveniences because they wouldn't translate, other than modern rifles with rifling.

I know you said to hump it, but if I were thinking outside those parameters, riding would be the way to go.

I think you are refusing to accept the repeated comments that you have to hump this stuff (pack animals would be a completely different line of planning), have an excessive belief in the accuracy and reliability of flintlock firearms, the availability of black powder and shot outside of civilization, the ability to defend oneself from multiple assailants or large game with a flintlock, your ability to fabricate clothing from hides (which must be prepped and tanned first), the weight and durability of printed material, the weight of heavy construction tools and the ease of using them, the weight of a lot of food, and the ease of capturing and taming a wild horse (probably not too many around in 1700).

Other than that, you are GTG.

gagners, I think you are on the right track and appreciate the detail. There are some things I would add and delete, but by and large, you have a supportable plan. Let me know where you got the 8 lb. AR-10 with the ACOG. Mine must be retaining water. Speaking of which, you have some serious desert to cross, you might want to bring more than 2 quarts of water.

If I were to go back to 1700 for profiteering, I would buy art instead of looneys.

Shootist. Agree completely. Would you also take a pistol?

TR

PSM

05-07-2008, 09:52

...to assist with the initial exploration of North America.

Is this challenge restricted to the area that became the United States? If not, and I'm only doing this to win a bet, I'd pop in at Veracruz and head NW to San Diego.

Pat

gagners

05-07-2008, 09:58

gagners, I think you are on the right track and appreciate the detail. There are some things I would add and delete, but by and large, you have a supportable plan. Let me know where you got the 8 lb. AR-10 with the ACOG. Mine must be retaining water. Speaking of which, you have some serious desert to cross, you might want to bring more than 2 quarts of water.

If I were to go back to 1700 for profiteering, I would buy art instead of looneys.

TR

Got the 8lbs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-10 (as I only own an M4, I know, I know :boohoo)

Water. Agreed. @ 8.3 lbs per gallon, how much would you recommend? Never had to source my own water in the desert before...

And for profiteering? I'd sell rides on my new TIME-MACHINE!!!:D

Edited to Add: Out of curiousity, What would you add or delete?

The Reaper

05-07-2008, 10:00

Is this challenge restricted to the area that became the United States? If not, and I'm only doing this to win a bet, I'd pop in at Veracruz and head NW to San Diego.

Pat

Yes. That would be a start from an existing port city on the East Coast of what became the US.

gagners, the listed current weight of an Armalite AR-10 is 9.8lbs, stripped. Add the mount, ACOG, loaded mag, etc., and you are probably at 11-12 lbs.

TR

TheShootist

05-07-2008, 10:07

I think a pistol would be necessary for defense against two-legged creatures. I would take a Glock 17 or an XD9, the 9mm ammo would be a little less weight than .45 acp.

Instead of a hatchet, I would take a Wyoming Saw, which is a neat little light saw that has a wood blade and bone blade. That would save some weight as well.

I think I would also invest a great deal of my 30 day prep time talking to academics and historians and try to get and idea of what tribes are likely to be where and when.

Kyobanim

05-07-2008, 10:10

Depending upon the route you choose, there is water in the form of rivers and creeks for approx. 98% of the trek. (hint - look at some maps from the early 1800s. Humans tend to change the environment to suit their needs.)

Researching this is very interesting. Lots of stuff to take into consideration.

Sten

05-07-2008, 10:21

My field time credentials, I lived in a bamboo hut in a remote jungle village for 2 years with no running water or electricity. I did not have to hunt for my meals. I was able to resupply myself with 80-150 kg of food and tobacco from the capitol every 120 days, I had clean water and a river to bathe in, the village supplied me all forms of local food but I did spend time in the gardens when I could, I was not allowed to pig hunt as hunting was proscribed by a in-country Peace Corps regulation plus the village Chief was worried I would get killed.

600 days (give or take) x 2 cooked meals a day = 1200 meals minimum. All of your ammo loads should have at least 2000 hunting rounds (can I get a plasma rifle?:D)...

When I was living stone age I had to spend 3 hours a day on 2 cooked meals, factor in building a fire, food prep and cooking and then clean up. Now add gathering to that number it adds at least 10 more hours a week (two trips to the garden, digging yams, planting yams etc.) even more time will be needed if you are hunting. Now add low calories and decreasing energy your times will increase on all tasks.

Starches, carbos and vitamins are going to be rough to procure on the trial.
As your body runs out of these basic building blocks healing, endurance and recovery is going to suffer.

All batteries die. All solar rechargeable anything die. All fabric rip, rats and raccoons eat tents and backpacks and extra clothes . LED lights are one exception and the led lamps would last barring a large rock smashing it :). But the batteries that run it will run out and then it is just dead weight (can we get any "space" 123 batteries that will last for 3 years?:D).

A good self winding watch, a tough compass and a detailed map of the pick up location (think top of predominate hill at the mouth of a predominate river that I can find with no map or compass).

Soles split off of boots condition your feet to moccasins that you can produce yourself.

Alone you are not going to fight the natives. If it comes down to a gun/bow fight one moderate wound to you and you are dead. Perhaps consider diplomacy over an assault rifle (and optics that will fail only add weight). You need a great hunting rifle with very few moving parts. A non-plasma handgun seems to be dead weight to me.

I would further suggest you pack on 30 extra pounds of fat on your body and condition yourself to move them around to give you an internal reserve. If you start walking at 5% body fat you have a very slim margin of error on food collection rates.

Cleaning, if you dont bathe and wash your clothes semi regularly any scratches, cuts and bug bites will be come very infected every time. Your going to need soap.

First aid, your going to need a host of meds/supplies. If you are not prepared one nasty cut will kill you. Also I think I read that malaria was in pasts of the US back then so you are going to need a cure or two. plus all the other ills that befall you when you move somewhere new.

TheShootist

05-07-2008, 10:34

2000 rounds is really heavy. Especially with all of the other stuff you need. Sounds like it would be a good idea to learn how to make pemmican and jerky so you can stretch your kills out!

gagners

05-07-2008, 10:35

I think I would also invest a great deal of my 30 day prep time talking to academics and historians and try to get and idea of what tribes are likely to be where and when.

I concur. What pleased/displeased them? Cultural do's/don'ts? Good thinking.

NoRoadtrippin

05-07-2008, 10:53

Gentlemen, this is a great thread. I am hard at work preparing my list.

TR I agree with you completely that a 5.56 weapon is not the best choice. However, as you mentioned before the .308 is fairly heavy. What about a lighter hunting rifle for food and a sidearm for two legged hunting? I suppose if you went without the sidearm by taking the AR then the weight would balance out, but you also arent as versatile. Remington makes a titanium receiver 700 series that only weighs about 6 pounds in .270 cartridge. Of course you would need an optic...

Also, I feel like people could be saving a pound or two on a weapons cleaning kit. Let's remember you're only carrying the rounds you take. It isn't like you are going to buy anymore. A rifle that starts clean and is in good shape should get through the 300-500 rounds people are considering without needing a lot more work. I'd say a small rag (could double up by using a sock or t-shirt you're already carrying), some lube, and a bore snake are likely all you would need.

Also, I agree with the small tent vein of thought. I personally love tarps for backpacking as they are lighter and can be used more creatively, but a tent pitches in more places, provides more shelter against snow, rain, wind and is warmer. With today's fly and poles technology, you can leave the tent body back here in 2008 and thus save a large amount of weight while still retaining many of the tent's benefits.

Just some thoughts. More to come with the full list.

The Reaper

05-07-2008, 11:05

Sten:

Excellent advice from someone who has spent this amount of time in a primitive area, if not humping a ruck. Your nutrition points are well stated. I did the same prior to survival training, carrying as much weight as I could and eating like a pig till we went to the woods. After five days, I was barely starting to feel the hunger.

I disagree about weapons and fighting natives. Some will be friendly, most will be neutral, and some are going to try and kill you regardless. A good .308 sturmgewehr with a low mag optic is, IMHO, the way to go. I believe that if you drop the first one hard with what to them would appear to be a plasma rifle, the rest may look for easier game. At least, till you stop, make camp, and go to sleep again.

IMHO, a good, battle rifle should last, without cleaning, for far more rounds than you can carry.

While I would like to have 2,000 rounds, I suspect that I would have to get by with several hundred, mostly hunting rounds with a few tracers should a firepower demo need to be given.

No one has picked up on my pistol idea yet. I would either take a 9mm with a .22LR conversion kit, or a .22LR pistol. The .22LR is a great round for dispatching small game and running a trap line. The game return on the weight carried is superior in all aspects for the .22LR. I might take 2,000 rounds of .22, though 1,000 would likely be more than adequate, unless you are a bad shot. If possible, I would look to get an integrally suppressed version (and carry some sub-sonic match loads), so as not to attract too much attention while harvesting game. You could even add a NAA .22 Mini-revolver to the kit for a last ditch/hide-out gun. A head shot, even with a .22, should end most disagreements.

A good Li Ion rechargeable battery should make it through the two years of the trip with power to spare. A solar charger roll attached to the top of the ruck should help keep it charged, though you may have to ration power.

I would expect a high end pair of boots to last till the winter break. At that point, you could repair them with a set of spare soles, or make the soles from leather, if you were able to acquire the hides and tan them properly.

For watches, I prefer the Casio Triple Sensors with the solar chargers. You then have a handy barometer, altimeter, compass, and thermometer.

A dedicated man can survive some pretty bad injuries with minimal care. Stop the bleeding, repair the injury as best you can, etc. Since you are pre-antibiotic, all strains should, in theory, be extremely succeptible to treatment by a good course of appropriate antibiotics. I would carry a BIG med kit, and several bars of soap, though if you save the animal fat, render it, mix it with ashes and some ground up limestone, you can make your own.

The point is well made though that if you act like Bear Grylls and insist on climbing up, or jumping down mountains, trying to swim significant rivers in near freezing temps, playing with local fauna, eating the native flora, etc., eventually, you are going to break a major bone, or get bit, poisoned, etc. Even an encounter with a bunch of bees could be terminal, especially without a video crew to get you out.

Good discussion!

TR

ZonieDiver

05-07-2008, 11:12

What a great topic. Still considering equipment, but think I would include a couple small traps and snares for times when I "hole up" to rest-recuperate-wait out weather-etc. in order to feed myself without using ammunition. Several small metal mirrors would be worth the extra weight as trade items - the edge could be honed for natives to use as a scraping tool.

The southern route would be best for me - weather and familiarity. Start in Charleston, SC through Cherokee Nation (we didn't really piss them off too much until after 1700), end up following Red River through part of Texas, cross NM and pick up the headwaters of the Gila River, follow it to the Colorado. The "bad part" would be crossing through what is now Imperial County, CA along I-8 route, but there are a couple of springs - definitely to be done in winter, cooler temps and more rain.

I'd want to end up in San Diego area - probably around La Jolla Cove. I'd probably include some goggles and a folding pole spear - to feed myself at the Cove while awaiting my time machine (as well as fishing in streams along the way). 18 months would do nicely, but I might allow 2 years for the "unforseen". If I get there early, I just hang out in La Jolla. I'd hate to miss my "pickup"! Details to follow

gagners

05-07-2008, 11:30

I'd probably include some goggles and a folding pole spear - to feed myself at the Cove while awaiting my time machine (as well as fishing in streams along the way). 18 months would do nicely, but I might allow 2 years for the "unforseen". If I get there early, I just hang out in La Jolla. I'd hate to miss my "pickup"! Details to follow

Why couldn't you just go back to the future BEFORE (which is really after) the trip to ensure proper PZ and just-in-time egress??? :munchin

The Reaper

05-07-2008, 11:35

Why couldn't you just go back to the future BEFORE (which is really after) the trip to ensure proper PZ and just-in-time egress??? :munchin

One time trip per customer, each way. We can discuss whether to stay or come back in a separate thread.

BTW, the I-10 route you mentioned earlier, goes to LA, not San Diego. Both have significant rugged hills, with many box canyons, if not mountains, to their East. If you ever fly into LAX or John Wayne International during daylight hours, look down at the terrain. Not the easiest to hike through.

Since we are talking cultural anthropology, which is a significant topic for SF, I would mark my modern topo map with the Spanish missions and other settlements and would try to route from one to the next as lay-up points, rather than relying on straight line movement. Frankly, I might be willing to temporarily convert and winter over in a mission, rather than a tent, teepee, tarp covered sod hut, etc.

TR

gagners

05-07-2008, 11:45

edit - going on a tangent. disregard.

Kyobanim

05-07-2008, 12:00

I'd take a southern route starting in Savannah and following rivers as much as possible. Historical maps show substantial rivers in place throughout the southwest. Savannah to Columbus to Shreveport, where I would pick up the Red River to Amarillo. At this point there is a tributary that heads west to Albuquerque. From there straight line to San Diego. This keeps you out of the worst of the deserts.

There's good crossing areas at low to medium altitude in the southern Rockies and Sierra Nevadas, though it will definately slow you up there regardless of the time of year. Minimal mild deserts (according to reports posted from the 1800s) to cross but with adiquate water. 2300 miles. 16 months at a leasurly pace so you can take pictures. Could be done in a year but I'd feel more comfortable with a safety margin built in.

More to follow.

Peregrino

05-07-2008, 12:17

My field time credentials -----.

I like the way you think. Solo cross country in primitive conditions/times means "gray man" - attract no attention, take no unnecessary risks, make all decisions based on energy expendature and effect on endurance. I.E. NO gambling! I hope TR's recording devices, batteries, etc don't detract too much from what I'm planning/required to carry just to survive.

Fonzy

05-07-2008, 13:25

The Reaper

05-07-2008, 13:28

I've noticed everyone wants to carry an AR. I can't remember who mentioined it, but weapon reliablity with minimial maitnence is an issue - Has anyone thought of carrying an AK? Reliable and a stronger caliber with plenty of add-on's avaible.

Excuse my ignorance, just adding fuel to the fire.

Too inaccurate for reliable hunting, underpowered for large game. Durability a small factor for the number of rounds we will be shooting. Difficult to mount an optical sight.

Handy and might be decent for CQB, but we aren't doing a lot of MOUT in this scenario.

TR

Pete S

05-07-2008, 14:13

I've noticed everyone wants to carry an AR. I can't remember who mentioined it, but weapon reliablity with minimial maitnence is an issue - Has anyone thought of carrying an AK? Reliable and a stronger caliber with plenty of add-on's avaible.

Excuse my ignorance, just adding fuel to the fire.

I would carry an M14 equiped with an ACOG with at most 200 rounds. In addition to the ACOG I would have a good set of binos.
Durable and reliable, being a .30 cal weapon would be able to take down most game.

Edit: I just recalled that 200 rounds of 7.62 weighs about 15 lbs, so the amount I would take would be less then 200.

I'm still wondering if I would be able to use a dog as moral support, hunting helper, danger indicator, emergency warmer.

JumpinJoe1010

05-07-2008, 14:34

Gold - 2# $25000 2
Boots - 4# x3pair 12
Pants - 1.5# x4pair 6
Blouse - 1.5# x4pair 4
T-shirts - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Socks - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Underwear - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Gortex Top - 1# 1
Gortex Btm - 1# 1
Fleece Top -1.5# 1.5
Fleece Btm - 1.5# 1.5
Knit cap - 0.25# 0.25
Cold Weather Gloves - 1# 1
Work Gloves - 1# 1
Work Knife - 1# x2 2
Hatchet - 3# 3
E Tool - 3# 3
Sleeping Bag - 4# 4
Poncho - 0.5# 0.5
Poncho liner - 0.25# 0.25
Bungie Cords - 3# 3
550 Cord - 5# 3
First Aid Kit - 3# 3
Pack - 5# 5
2qt - 1.5# x2 3
Digital Camera - 1# 1
PDA - 1# 1
Solar Charger - 1# 1
Total Weight 73lbs

Can this be accomplished successfully? Doubtful

Do you accept the challenge? Yes

Where do you start? Charleston South Carolina

What route do you take? From Charleston to Atlanta, followed by Memphis. Then through Little Rock across the great plains to Albuquerque. You would move north of Mesa Arizona through between the mountains to Los Angeles California. Total 2499 miles. The big problem would be crossing the plains in the summer heat. Another would be the plains Indians.

Where do you plan to finish? Los Angeles California

How long do you think it will take you? Moving 10 miles a day, it would take 300 days. The trip can be completed in 8 to 9 months. The trip would start in March and end in September/October.

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you? Camera, PDA, and Solar panel

What are your priorities? Finding water points crossing the prairie.

How will you carry it? On my back.

What firearms will you take?XD 40 as a side arm, .308 Bolt Action Winchester

How much ammo, accessories, etc.? 200 rounds 308, 50 rounds side arm. Add 5 pounds pack weight.

What edged tools do you take? Hunting knife x2, Hatchet, E Tool

What navigational aids do you take? Standard Army maps laminated and 2 compasses.

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey? Doubtful with the Indians. Once you get by one tribe you will be looking for the next tribe over the horizon.

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?

Let’s think this one through as stated first, we can do branches and sequels later.

This is one heck of a trek! :D

Max_Tab

05-07-2008, 15:05

I'm thinking it would probable take 2 1/2-3 years start to finish. I'm not in a hurry and would just enjoy myself. I would try to average about 7-8 miles a day. Having to hunt and carry all your own food would necessitate the short distance each day, but it is a pace that you could easily keep up for a long time without breaking down your body too bad. I would plan on spending two winters there and would build a shelter provision it and hole up till the spring. Game probable wouldn't be that much of a problem because there was a lot more of it back then.

I chose the M-4 type rifle for the weight, but the Le Mas round for the ability to kill.

I am wearing heavy duty mountaineering boots that will probable last the whole trip if I take care of them. Walk 7-8 miles in them, then when I get to my camp site take them off, put on some mocasins.

I would probable take the central corridor NC to TN, MO, CO, UT, NV, CA.

Tent over tarp-spending that much time out side it would nice to be able to get in under some cover.

my maps would be small lightweight books similar to road atlas's that arent accurate but would be able to tell me where I am and where water is, how to get through the mountains where the passes are, that type of thing. My detail information would be on the pda, and if it breaks I still have the book as a backup.

I would learn how to use one of those star navigation devices (not sure the actual name) and bring one of those with me also.

gagners

05-07-2008, 15:14

What are your priorities? Finding water points crossing the prairie.

How will you carry it? On my back.

What firearms will you take?XD 40 as a side arm, .308 Bolt Action Winchester

How much ammo, accessories, etc.? 200 rounds 308, 50 rounds side arm. Add 5 pounds pack weight.

How will you purify your water? Crypto will end your adventuring days in short order and it's caused by surface water contamination by poop. Lots of animals back then = lots of poop in the water.

Would look at your weights again and if you have a 70+ pound pack, PLUS your rifle, sidearm, ammo, etc... That'll get nasty heavy in a hurry.

MAXTAB- It's a sextant, I think.

Pete S

05-07-2008, 16:00

Pack: Kifaru ZXR with XTL
Shelter: Kifaru SuperHootch
Sleeping System: Kifaru Regulator and Woobie
Outerwear: Orc Ind. Level 6 top and bottom
TAD Stealth Hoodie SS
Polartek Watchcap
Set of Fleece long underwear
Merino wool socks, 6 pairs
Asolo GTX's (with Superfeet insoles), one pair
additional pair of Superfeet insoles
convertible nylon pants, one
Wool pants, one
nylon shirt, long sleeve, one
Wool shirt, long sleeve, one
500 ft of 550 cord
Leatherman
Wyoming Saw II
Small hatchet
Hunting knife, 2
Professional sharpening kit
Mess tin
2 Nalege bottles with cup

Sewing kit:
100 ft of 69 nylon thread
30 needles
replacement button can be made with carved bone

Navigation:
Silva Ranger
Sextant

Electronics:
Computer with detailed topo maps, cultural information, calander, Birds of america, Mammals of america, plants of america, fish of america, survival guide, star charts and weather info (if available) on hard drive. ( IIRC the magnetic declination would be off if you use modern maps)
PDA to transfer date to for handheld use.
Solar charger for computer and PDA.
Solar battery charger AA and AAA
Solar watch with compass
LED Petzl Headlamp

Weapon:
M14 with 120 rounds
or
7.62 bolt action rifle (Mauser variant) with 160 rounds.
The magazines for the M14 would add unnecessary weight.

Optics:
4 - 6 power scope with ability to attach PVS 14's for night use
Binoculars
PVS 14's

Salt for preserving food and trading.
Trekking pole with compass in the top
6 x 6 foot net, for hunting fish, birds, and rodents. (Line fishing is an inefficient use of time)

Skills I would learn before leaving:
Leather working (making clothes/ moccasins)
Bow hunting ( in case the ammo runs out)
Cordage making with natural fibers ( in case 550 cord runs out/ making rope)
Weaving plant fibers ( for making shelters, clothing, and nets)
Trapping (so not to waste ammo, and little risk to myself)
Tanning ( pelts for clothing and trading)
Metal working (Making/ repairing tools)
Stone tool making
Spear fishing

I would travel the route Lewis and Clark took. I would leave in March (its named after the God of War for a reason)
I would state a 3 year travel time. This will give me time to not travel in the winter, or overcome any obstacle such as mountain ranges or sickness and still be able to get to the Oregon/ Washington coast early. At which point I would make a permeant structure and wait for my ride without going crazy. The coast will have an abundance of sea life to keep me alive for the rest of my time there.

The most important thing is the preparation for the adventure. Being physically prepared and having the motivation to survive to complete your mission are more important then any piece of gear.

JumpinJoe1010

05-07-2008, 16:29

How will you purify your water? Crypto will end your adventuring days in short order and it's caused by surface water contamination by poop. Lots of animals back then = lots of poop in the water.

Would look at your weights again and if you have a 70+ pound pack, PLUS your rifle, sidearm, ammo, etc... That'll get nasty heavy in a hurry.

MAXTAB- It's a sextant, I think.

That is why this trip would be difficult at best. With the load I described, it is heavy, with just the basics. I would boil the water, but then your going to need a pot to boil it in. Tabs won't last nine months in my estimation, and I doubt the trip would be made in nine months, because that is a perfect world.

x-factor

05-07-2008, 17:06

Did you read the part about significant field time?

I did. I came to the conclusion that while I was not qualified to talk about tactical considerations such as gear, since I'd been helping guys plan missions (including many forms of collection, not unlike the surveying discussed here) for several years now and have a fair amount of expertise in things like human terrain and geospatial IPB, I probably had something of value to add to the discussion.

Since we are talking cultural anthropology, which is a significant topic for SF, I would mark my modern topo map with the Spanish missions and other settlements and would try to route from one to the next as lay-up points, rather than relying on straight line movement. Frankly, I might be willing to temporarily convert and winter over in a mission, rather than a tent, teepee, tarp covered sod hut, etc.

TR

In addition to obvious terrain and water data, before leaving you're going to want to consult with historians and ecologists to build geospatial data layers for your laptop's FalconView (or, if you want to go old school, plastic transparent overlays for your maps):
- Spanish missions
- French fur trapper "rendevous" locations
- Indian tribal boundaries, settlements (with notes on basic language, customs, and inter-tribe relations...each assessed for potential use as an ally, trading partner, lay-up location, etc)
- Weather patterns (to the extent that its available...if its not you can probably extrapolate backwards from existing data and almanacs)
- Animal populations and migratory patterns (when you reach the plains, you'll want to cross reference the buffalo migration patterns with Indian population data to predict your best routes for avoiding/contacting Indian hunting parties)
- Population/settlement data for areas east of the Mississippi (trading posts and frontier forts will be of particular value to assure that you're able to resupply before setting out into truly unsettled territory)

All this in addition to the obvious terrain analysis (cross referencing climate, security, availability of food and water, proximity to humans, etc) you'd do to identify and rate as many natural lilly pads as possible. This analysis will be particularly important if you are injured or fall sick and have to deviate from your primary route.

Also, if we're not worried about polluting the timeline, I'm curious if anyone would consider using superior technology to recruit (coerce?) Indian populations into assisting you? Maybe as a backup plan? (Precedent: Spanish conquistadors.) Its potentially a high-risk, high-reward tactic and maybe not in the spirit of the challenge anyway, but still an interesting option.

Kyobanim

05-07-2008, 18:23

What you need is an individual water purification device that treats any freshwater source for microbiological contaminants. These purification devices are like the ones used by campers and backpackers. They can treat up to 500 liters of drinking water without replacement parts and minimal maintenance.

Here's what's available:

Item NSN

Filter unit, water purification, pocket 4610-01-503-4590
Element, filter 4610-01-503-4763
(pocket replacement cartridge)
Filter unit, water purification, pocket 4610-01-503-5260
(Sweetwater Guardian purifier)
Filter unit, water purification, knapsack 4610-01-449-5912

NoRoadtrippin

05-07-2008, 18:26

Kyobanim

05-07-2008, 18:58

With respect, three NSNs does not represent what is available for water purification.

No it doesn't. But it was intended to get people thinking about alternatives.

odoylerules

05-07-2008, 19:09

Since we are talking cultural anthropology, which is a significant topic for SF, I would mark my modern topo map with the Spanish missions and other settlements and would try to route from one to the next as lay-up points, rather than relying on straight line movement. Frankly, I might be willing to temporarily convert and winter over in a mission, rather than a tent, teepee, tarp covered sod hut, etc.
TR

I don't have the requisite field time and am barely the age to post, so I won't get into that, but one of the first thoughts through my head was "Southern route - Jesuit/Dominican/other missions."

They're going to take you in, and instead of/in addition to a "temporary conversion," learn up on the Council of Trent, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church (from that time period) and blend right in from the get-go. Plan it right, and instead of being the "lost heathen that Brother Juan found in the desert," you could be "the man who came to our gates praying the Rosary," just plot out the spots on the map, get your timing right and come right before or after a daily Mass, if you could know for certain when it was being said...which I guess you could establish by simple surveillance.

Eat well, good room, companionship. I might be alone in saying this, but I'd start to go fairly nutty after being all alone in the woods for months on end, interacting largely with just hostile natives. Being with people - people who didn't want to kill me - would be a treat by the time I reached that are of the continent.

Forgot to say, I was actually thinking a lot earlier in the thread, regarding camouflage, for dealing with some tribes who would recognize and like it, pack a Roman collar or appropriate ecclesiastical garb. I'm not one for sacrilege, but wearing clerics isn't sacrilege if it's to protect your life.

Sdiver

05-07-2008, 19:28

I gave this some thought over the night, and here's what I came up with.

Can this be accomplished successfully?

Yes I believe it can.

Do you accept the challenge?

Yes

Where do you start?

St Augustine Florida

What route do you take?

A Southern route. From St. Augustine, westward over the peninsula of Florida and once over that, hug the coast line of the Gulf of Mexico to the Rio Grande. Once there, up the Rio Grande to central New Mexico, then take a left turn at Albuquerque :D and over the central part of New Mexico and the North Central part of Arizona, to the Colorado river. Down that to the Sea of Cortez and over the Baja and into So Cal.

Where do you plan to finish?

Southern California

How long do you think it will take you?

I plan on 900 days (about 2 1/2 years)

What is in your field gear?

Without getting too much in depth, seeing that most is already listed in other posts, A small mask, fin and snorkel set, along with a Hawaiian sling (pole spear) with several tips. 550 cord. 200' of rope, along with some, not much, mountaineering equipment. My handy dandy Leatherman Super Tool.

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?

Modern: On the PDA a Topo map of the route I would take. Also on the PDA, a Spanish/English, French/English and the local tribes along the route language/English dictionaries. Also several chapters from the STP 31-18-SM-TC field manual.

My Woobie. :D

Period: Ball, cap and powder, along with a long rifle.

What are your priorities?

Staying alive and collecting 10 million dollars. :D

What firearms will you take?

From today, a 1911 Colt .45 (tried and tested time and time again, and with some great stopping power.)
I would acquire a long rifle, once there.

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?

150 rounds of .45 for the Colt, along with a cleaning kit and spare parts kit. 10 extra magazines.

What edged tools do you take?

My handy dandy Leatherman Super Tool. A 20' machete. A Hersey T-3. A hand ax. An E-tool.

What navigational aids do you take?

Compass. Sextant. Topo map on the PDA, along with hard copies in case the PDA goes T.U.

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?

100%

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?

Travel the route I would take, looking for possible hazards and obstacles that might still be around 300 years later. Research the weather from that time period and see if there are any storms, flooding or droughts as I where to move westward. Any major historical events that took place among the Europeans and local indigs, and avoid them if deemed hazardous.

lksteve

05-07-2008, 19:51

IRope would be useful for roping a wild horse. The problem would be taming them. Horse...1700...hmmm...unless you steal one on the east coast, it'll be Tejas before you would possibly enounter a wild horse...a long time ago, in a land not far from here, I rode fence for a ranch in the South Park area...had to catch up our daily mounts in a corral...that wasn't all that easy...

As far as the adventure challenge goes, hell, folks spent months in Uwharrie...I'm thinking I'll pass for now...

ZonieDiver

05-07-2008, 19:51

[QUOTE=odoylerules;209164] <snip>Eat well, good room, companionship. I might be alone in saying this, but I'd start to go fairly nutty after being all alone in the woods for months on end, interacting largely with just hostile natives. Being with people - people who didn't want to kill me - would be a treat by the time I reached that are of the continent.[QUOTE]

I don't want to sound like "Dances With Wolves" - but in 1700 there were still lots of "friendly" native groups, at least to people who didn't threaten their way of life. While certain groups could be very hostile to outsiders - research could identify them and a route might avoid them - other areas - Pimeria Alta in Arizona for one - were full of agriculturalist natives who had a tradition of welcoming non-hostile/threatening outsiders.

odoylerules

05-07-2008, 20:31

I meant to put more emphasis on having been alone in the wild for extended periods, but then I remembered the potential fighting that had been of some interest in this thread, and in addressing it, altered what my message was. Sorry about that.

lksteve

05-07-2008, 20:34

Navigation:
Silva Ranger
SextantI don't see an ephemeris on your list...:munchin

And the question begs, have you ever used one...?

lksteve

05-07-2008, 21:04

II would probable take the central corridor NC to TN, MO, CO, UT, NV, CA.Damn, MT, that's mighty dry country,,,I've lived in CO, UT, and NV and work quite a bit in CA...

Pete S

05-07-2008, 21:59

I don't see an ephemeris on your list...:munchin

And the question begs, have you ever used one...?

I have never used one. Looks like a useful piece of gear though.

PSM

05-07-2008, 22:55

I don't see an ephemeris on your list...:munchin

And the question begs, have you ever used one...?

I agree!

With modern topo maps (corrected to the 1700 mag deviation) and a compass, a sextant and ephemeris is just extra weight. I'd use an aviation protractor with the maps and to find latitude at night from Polaris. Longitude is less important on land with good maps and nav skills.

Also, in my thirty days prep, I would do a low level flight of my planned route with maps and flora info from the 1700s. I'd use the Savannah to San Diego route, as well, since I've lived in and explored much of that area west of Louisiana already.

Would I do it? In my 20s...sure. Now, with a family and at my age, no...not for money. For a higher cause? Yep.

@TR

Is the Grandfather Paradox negated? Not for the participant but, for instance, if I'm attacked by Geronimo's grandfather and kill him, will history change?

Pat

lksteve

05-08-2008, 05:30

I have never used one. Looks like a useful piece of gear though.No need in having a sextant without an ephemeris...you might as well take a GPS...

Sten

05-08-2008, 07:45

The companionship issue should not to be trifled with. a year or two of limited human contact is a big hurdle.

Entertainment, nights will be long, winter will be longer how are you going to spend 12 hours a day for 3 months under the snow? I can tell you that after you reread Atlas Shrugged a few times you will long for any other book.

Salt and potassium, I have no idea how much you will need for 2 years but not having the minimum is a mission ender. I am not sure I want to be in Iowa counting on trade to get me salt.

I really want to pack a Delta, could I find a skinny one and use him as my total weight allowance? So to review my list so far, 2 plasma rifles and a Delta.

Smokin Joe

05-08-2008, 08:15

The companionship issue should not to be trifled with. a year or two of limited human contact is a big hurdle.

I would get a vasectomy and find a girlfriend! Plus it really wouldn't be cheating, technically speaking the relationship would have occurred before my wife and I were together. :lifter

I'm soooo glad my better half doesn't read PS.com

nmap

05-08-2008, 11:28

I really want to pack a Delta, could I find a skinny one and use him as my total weight allowance? So to review my list so far, 2 plasma rifles and a Delta.

My first thought was to pack a Glock 22 with 200 rounds, and the rest in 1/2 oz. gold coins. Then hire 100 Hessian mercenaries for a year (as nearly as I can tell, the conversion rate to pounds sterling versus annual pay for the mercs would work out well, and still leave a margin for error.) The gold would be worth about 6,500 pounds sterling, and the mercs got about 20 pounds per year and equipped themselves.

But I fear that would violate the ground rules rather badly; and the timeline would never be the same.

(I wonder if I could get away with hiring a guide, a personal chef, and a valet? Or would that be completely over the top?) (Yes, I'm joking).

Peregrino

05-08-2008, 12:18

I'm holding out for the flameproof, micro-climate, Arcturan spider silk underwear and the chameleon combat suit with the woven in photovoltaics, HUD, PDA, Navsys, and personal entertainment accessories. :munchin

The Reaper

05-08-2008, 13:18

Gents, I am seeing some decent lists here, with a few omissions or overkill.

I am learning a lot from this discussion as well.

Those planning on companionship or pack mules, hold off, we will eventually come to those alternatives. Not sure that many would give up half of the winnings just to have someone to argue with. Maybe if it was Gordon Smith, it might be worth it.

Don’t get too far down in the weeds about time travel protocols till you are in the test phase of the actual machine. That is a topic for discussion elsewhere.

Gold was not worth $1000 per ounce back then. Barter items would probably be worth more. Consider small sharps, needles, fishhooks, blades, mirrors, micro-lights, BIC lighters, small pens (or refills), ferrocerium rods, etc.

No dog this trip, unless you find one en route. If he can forage for himself, this would be a good idea.

Anyone who plans on sleeping in nothing but spare clothes in a poncho and liner will probably freeze to death.

Those who think 200 rounds of .308 and 50 rounds of .45 ACP weigh 5 pounds better get some ammo, a scale, and a clue.

Boots that last for a 3,000 mile trek rank right up there with magic beans.

I like the concept of trying to use the native tribes to assist you in your journey, but even if you are the baddest man on the planet, you are going to be going to sleep sometime, and since you are solo in this, you are vulnerable to the thieves, the jealous, those with motivations to eliminate you, etc. I might give it a few days in a native camp, but following that, I want to be hitting the trail again.

Routes along the Gulf Coast are going to put you in a lot of river crossings and swampy areas. Not somewhere you are going to make a lot of quick movement.

Those planning on taking more time than necessary to see the sights are increasing your risk factor. If you stay out in the woods for 1,000 days, you are taking a significantly higher risk of being killed or injured than someone who makes the trip in 300 days. The odds of disease, injury, or accident are high. Note that if we were running West Coast to East, it might make some sense, since there are cities to live somewhat better than on the move, living out of your ruck, and you could rent a room, buy your meals, etc. till the exfil. Not happening in California in 1700.

1700 is before percussion caps are invented. State of the art is flintlock.

I am not promoting a centerfire pistol as one of your weapons, but note that .45 ammo is very heavy, almost twice as heavy as 9x19. Grab a 50 round box next time you are in the store and see for yourself, and with JHPs, the 9mm is not that bad a performer. What kind of firefight do you envision that you can shoot up 10 mags (or 70 rounds) without having time to reload, before being overcome yourself? You should be worried about hostile natives, not zombies.

The 20 foot machete should be fun to deploy. If you have one, could you post a picture?

Due to the multitude of threats, I would put the odds of completing this challenge at no better than even, with years of SF training and a good prep. No better than that due to the unknown hazards, and the ever present Murphy waiting to twist your ankle, give you a bad mushroom, give you a snakebite, catch a fever, strand you in the mountains during winter, in the desert during an extended drought, lose your ruck in the river, drown you, hit you with lightning, have you hit by a swarm of bees, give you food poisoning, crypto, giardia, etc. You are on your own on this and there is no partner, team, 911, or rescue chopper coming to get you. The Donner Party of 86, fully equipped for 1846 with wagons and departed the much shorter distance from Springfield, Illinois, starved and 39 died in the mountains of California when they missed their crossing window by a few days in October, and decided to lay up.

I do like the idea of working with the locals, rather than seeing them all as a threat. Probably a good analysis of whether you have SF potential or not by the answer to that question.

As far as the sextant goes, the reason that ships use it is that there are relatively few landmarks on the ocean, but there are many underwater hazards near land. Explorers would use it because they did not have a map. With a map, compass, and identifiable terrain features, moving on foot, I see no need for it.

As previously noted, you are in your prime, at whatever age you wish to be when this offer is made.

If hiring mercenaries were permitted, and the word “solo” prohibits this, I would wager that if you had your Glock and the gold with 100 armed mercs, after a few nights, you would, at best, have neither, or at worst, be dead. You might do some reading on the mutinies and political struggles among the early explorers, and their crews.

I am with you Peregrino. Too bad the conditions don't allow for a jump forward before jumping back. I am holding out for the flying suit so I do not have to get my boots dirty.

Hope this helps clarify and shed some light on the scenario and some of the choices thus far. Not throwing darts at anyone's suggestions, just offering my opinion.

TR

x-factor

05-08-2008, 15:36

TR - If you like survival situation thought experiments I think you would get a real kick out of The Zombie Survival Guide and World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War. In the tradition of Vonnegut, they're a combination of dark comedy, political satire, and some very interesting playful analysis.

The basic premise is that there is a disease that turns people into flesh eating zombies and the books track the spread of the disease, society's failure to properly confront it, the panic that ensues, the eventual adaptations that allow humanity to survive, and the way human culture is irrevocably changed as a result.

It sounds cheezy but its a very smart, detailed, entertaining thought experiment.

7624U

05-08-2008, 18:37

Can this be accomplished successfully? yes but not likely in 30 days

Do you accept the challenge? maybe depends on how much the future sucks

Where do you start? NY state someplace

What route do you take? North route during the winter crossing the rivers are easyer

Where do you plan to finish? Washington state

How long do you think it will take you? 30 days if conditions where right
but if I had time to prepare 180 days

What is in your field gear? water purification sleeping bag light tent fire starting material warm cloths

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you? light metal blades for my sled the rest can be built. book on making a dog sled and the tac for 16-20 dog sled
Barter items IE mirriors and light metal knifes

What are your priorities? training my dogs i buy with eather gold or barter items

How will you carry it? dog sled

What firearms will you take? 300 win mag with 200 rds ruger 10/22 with 2000rds

How much ammo, accessories, etc.? 4 hand grenades case the natives get restless

What edged tools do you take? long knife, short knife, leather working tools a small saw and axe/blunt back used as hammer

What navigational aids do you take? Country Atlas compass distance tracker IE running watch

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey? 1/1000 in 30 days 1/100 if you had time to prepare for the trip

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave? scout the ground and major obsticals along your route figure out a game plan.
talk to a Iditarod winner and learn tricks they used.

here are some sources I used

http://www.iditarod.com/learn/

http://www.iidoba.org/history.htm

Sdiver

05-08-2008, 18:54

Period: Ball, cap and powder, along with a long rifle.

1700 is before percussion caps are invented. State of the art is flintlock.

I thought of that today, and was going to change it. But you're too quick for me Sir. :D

I would still acquire a Flintlock once there. I can always trade or make my own ball and powder.

What edged tools do you take?

A 20' machete.

The 20 foot machete should be fun to deploy. If you have one, could you post a picture?

D'OH !!!!

I meant this -----> "

PSM

05-08-2008, 19:15

I'd have my topos printed on light-weight, and durable, fabric that can be used for more than just tender once they become useless.

Pat

NoRoadtrippin

05-08-2008, 22:21

Alright, so after much internal debate, reading of previous posts, and discussion with a few friends I have devised my list. It is rather in depth and hopefully a bit more thorough than any seen thus far. I have tried to combine aspects of items I would take on a personal extended backpacking trip with items that would be needed on a more militarily oriented adventure. Between the two, I hope I have given myself at least some chance of survival if luck and the weather are with me.

For my route, I feel I would want to take a somewhat central route. It is the part of the country I know best, and it avoids desert areas in the south and the more bitter cold of the north.

Like others, I would spend my 30 days getting any extra training I could on basic and advanced fieldcraft and survival techniques, do a fly-over/driving recon of my route, and compile as much human topography info into my maps as possible. I would do my best to also store the previously mentioned English>Spanish and English>French translators on my PDA as well as the flora/fauna guide.

I think that this trip is possible but not without a bit of good fortune. Training and experience will indeed see you through much in life, but it never hurts for things to just fall into the right place at the right time. In this adventure I think it would be crucial for a bit of "luck" every now and then.

I am a bit of a gear head so I would be more than excited to discuss any of my choices and their pros/cons. So without further ado...
ITEM / WEIGHT (in oz.)
OspreyArgon 110 (6700 cu. in.) 104
Arc'teryx Pack Cover 5.29
Black Diamond Carbon Trekking Poles
Brunton Geo Pocket Transit Compass 10.2
Brunton 54LU Compass (x2) 2.8
Sierra Zip Stove (Titanium Version) 10
Brunton SolarRoll 14 17
Western Mountaineering Alpinlite Bag 31
ThermaRest Ridge Rest Reg. 14
ThermaRest Trekker Chair 20 10.5
Marmot Aeolos 2P Tent (floor and fly only) 56
Petzl Elite (x2) 1.8
Petzl MYO XP 5.5
Canon Powershot G9 Digital Camera 11.29
Extra G9 Battery (x2) 9
G9 Lens Adapter 3
G9 Wide Angle Lens 5
G9 Teleconverter Lens 4
16GB SD Memory Cards (x5) (for maps and pics) 2
Canon Speedlite 430 EX 11
Rechargable AA Batteries (x10) 16
AMREL Rocky PDA (maps, flora, fauna, human topo) 16
Remington 700 Alaska Ti (.30-06) 100
Leupold 3-9x33 Ultralight 11
Rings, Base, Sling 24
400 Rounds .30-06 240
Glock 17 (w/light) 25.29
3 Magazines 15
150 Rounds JHP 64
HSGI Drop Holster 16
Dr. Bronner's Soap 16
5ft Radius Cast Fishing Net 96
Benchmade Mini-Griptilian 2.56
Chris Reeve Green Beret Knife 7" 12.8
Gerber Camp Axe 36.8
Leatherman Skeletool 5
Sharpening Stone 6
SnoPeak Ti Spork 0.6
SnoPeak Ti Double Wall 300 Mug 3.8
MSR Duralite 1.5L Pot (w/pot holder) 9
MSR Duralite Skillet 5.4
MSR Folding Spatula 0.77
MSR Folding Spoon 0.88
Sterling Ropes 4mm P-Cord (300ft) 32
Black Diamond Vaporlock Carabiner (x4) 8
Black Diamond Ovalwire (x6) 9.6
Bic Lighters (x10) 13
Multi Vitamins (500) 24
Adventure Medical Kits Fundamentals (w/extras) 56
AMK Gear Repair Backcountry Kit (w/sewing kit) 16
3L Camelbak Bladder 10
1L Nalgene, Lexan (x2) 13
Arc'teryx Alpha LT GTX Jacket 12.87
Arc'teryx Alpha SL GTX Pant 9
Arc'teryx Solo Jacket 14
Mountain Hardwear Dome Perignon Hat 2
Mountain Hardwear Mesa Convertible Pant (x3) 39
Patagonia R1 Top 9.9
Patagonia Capilene 1 Wicking Shirts (x5) 22.5
Wigwam Comfort Hiker Socks (x7) 15
Wigwam Coolmax Liner Socks (x7) 11
Arc'teryx Rho LT Base Layers 12.9
Fleece Convertible Gloves 8
Tilley Airflo Hat 4
Native Silencer Sunglasses (x2) 1.4
Sea to Summit 20L Dry Bag (x2) 8.4
Sea to Summit 4L Dry Bag 1.7
Bandana (x4) 2
Weapon Cleaning Kit 8
100ft Duct Tape 10
Rite in the Rain Memo Book (x2) 6
100 PUR Water Tablets 6
Crocs Shoes (for camp) 8
Asolo Sassalong Boot (x2) 102
Spice Kit 20

Total Pounds: 89.32875

Agreed, this is a bit heavy. Especially since I am not that big a guy. However, consider that not all of it is on my back. At any given moment, I am moving with all of it but of course a number of the pounds are distributed elsewhere on the body. My goal was 80 pounds. If I cut a handful of things I would like to have instead of trying to convince myself that I need them then I think I could easily get down a number of pounds.

TR, thanks for the challenge.

Indian

05-09-2008, 00:38

How many satellites were there in 1700?

Reliance on any kind of modern electronics beyond low power lighting is questionable IMHO.

I believe I would be too busy focusing on SA and planning my next move to worry about battery life or LCD screens.

That being said, I would definitely bring my 4 favorite edged tools:
GB 7" knife
Doug Ritter S30V 4" folder
Leatherman Wave
Estwing 16" hatchet

Beyond that, I'll have to think about what I might take in addition to my normal gear for the bush in Alaska. Possibly a different rifle.....

I love this kind of scenario. Generates lots of interesting ideas.

The Reaper

05-09-2008, 07:09

I would ask those looking to add their .02 to please read through the entire thread and consider the points that have already been made.

GPS was busted on Page 1, excessive ammo loads have already been covered, as have hunting rifles, large bore center-fire handguns, shotguns, etc.

Those with loads at or above 80 pounds without water of food better hope that some of the gear is edible. 100 pounds is a shocker for those who have never humped it, and you are not very combat effective while loaded to that extent. I would not consider taking 30-40 pounds of ammo for what should be a very long hike. Most experts recommend a load not to exceed 30% of your body weight. A well-conditioned 200 lb. man can move in easy terrain with 100 lbs. of gear. A 120 lb. person will not.

If you are using walking sticks in potentially dangerous country, where is your rifle? If I needed a walking stick, I could probably cut an adequate one in the woods, and take the saved weight in salt or food. Personally, my hands will likely be busy carrying my rifle.

7624U, as stated earlier in the instructions, there are no dogs allowed in this scenario, you must hump the load yourself, solo. I do not think you can pull the akhio that fast.

Just a few thoughts.

TR

NoRoadtrippin

05-09-2008, 08:53

If you are using walking sticks in potentially dangerous country, where is your rifle? If I needed a walking stick, I could probably cut an adequate one in the woods, and take the saved weight in salt or food. Personally, my hands will likely be busy carrying my rifle.

While I cant say I have ever spent time in the field during the 1700's personally I think I feel that there will be less of an emphasis on combat that what some others may be perceiving. I think it would be no problem to have your rifle strapped on the pack if carrying a side arm for immediate self defense needs.

Further, the trekking poles offer a number of huge benefits. First, their original use. Physiological studies show that the poles can take as much as 20% of the strain of the opposite knee and leg when used correctly and can take as much as 11 pounds of stress off each foot step on flat ground and 18 pounds off each step when moved to an incline. So, over 3000 miles these lightweight poles have the ability to preserve your health in a big way. If you've never used a pair of poles on a long trip, then you're missing out. I understand they would never work with a rifle in hand, but I don't plan on constantly having a rifle in hand. Of course, if I hit an area I know to be historically dangerous the rifle and poles can always switch places for a time.

Using a wooden stick creates a much larger swing weight every time you put it out in front of you. Again, over 3000 miles this adds up and will require a lot more calories of your body with potentially less ability to take shock off of your knees.

Next consider all their other uses...shooting sticks, stakes for the tent, tarp poles, splinting a fracture, deterrent for small animals, probe for the snow, etc. I love my trekking poles and wouldn't leave the 21st century without them I don't think.

The Reaper

05-09-2008, 09:12

It isn't just combat you have to worry about.

In 1700, the majority of this continent was dominated by predatory game.

I would not want to have my long gun lashed to my pack in bear country, which along with wolf and cougar territory, is a large part of your central corridor.

Not saying you can't take sticks if you want, just pointing out that there might be reasons not to.

I swing my rifle when rucking for the same reason you use your sticks.

What do you plan to eat and drink?

TR

Sten

05-09-2008, 09:40

This is a fantastic book on Lewis and Clark. It covers the trip in great detail and describes many of the challenges.

http://www.amazon.com/Undaunted-Courage-Meriwether-Jefferson-American/dp/0684826976

Team Sergeant

05-09-2008, 10:12

OK, I've read this from start to finish a few times and I'd like to offer some advice.

I've looked at the packing lists and and the discussion of some of those lists.

For some of you, how do you plan to cross the Mississippi? (and other large rivers?) Does your ruck float? Will a hundred feet of 550 cord allow you to build a boat/raft?

I do hope you're taking into account that you might be hitting the Rockies in the dead of winter...... What's your plan for crossing those mountains?

Those of you taking a southern route, you will be just fine until you hit the western deserts...... I've driven across them and there's no way I'd walk across them.

I would not need a map or compass to cross the United States.... You might want to think about that.

How long can I carry a deer leg before it rots? Or do you expect to hunt "everyday"? I would eat as I walked and learn to live off small game I collect along the way.

As for the weapons I'd carry they would be a .22 pistol with 500 rounds and an M4 with 300 rounds, that's it;)

TS

JumpinJoe1010

05-09-2008, 10:27

For some of you, how do you plan to cross the Mississippi? (and other large rivers?) Does your ruck float? Will a hundred feet of 550 cord allow you to build a boat/raft?

I do hope you're taking into account that you might be hitting the Rockies in the dead of winter...... What's your plan for crossing those mountains?

As for the weapons I'd carry they would be a .22 pistol with 500 rounds and an M4 with 300 rounds, that's it;)

TS

Excellent point, because I was pondering that. I would make a raft, ditto on the .22, but was curious of the thoughts of a compound bow since arrows are reusable.

What you need is an individual water purification device that treats any freshwater source for microbiological contaminants. These purification devices are like the ones used by campers and backpackers. They can treat up to 500 liters of drinking water without replacement parts and minimal maintenance.

Here's what's available:

Item NSN

Filter unit, water purification, pocket 4610-01-503-4590
Element, filter 4610-01-503-4763
(pocket replacement cartridge)
Filter unit, water purification, pocket 4610-01-503-5260
(Sweetwater Guardian purifier)
Filter unit, water purification, knapsack 4610-01-449-5912

This would purify my water. Food would be a primary concern, which would either be salted or dried. And would need to be hunted every day or two.

Here is my updated packing list, and route plans. It would be a three phase trip based upon weather. First phase would be traveling to the edge of civilization in Western South Carolina, and setting up in a community/trading post to gain skills in hunting trapping, indian affairs. Get to know the locals for the best routes to the Oklahoma territory around Tulsa. Once in that territory, set up for winter. Use skills learned to set up camp, build fur collection for myself and trade. Before leaving sell furs, for money.

Second phase would be to start second leg of journey to cross the plains while cool, and indians are not restless. Get to the passes of route through the Rockies in the summer will be cooler, and set up camp on the West side of Rockies waiting for late summer.

The third phase in the fall would allow me to cross the desert/arrid portions to east California. Also on the West side of the Rockies, find any missions on the west side and learn the best routes to California.

Gold - 2# $25000 2
Boots - 4# x2pair 8
Pants - 1.5# x2pair 3
Blouse - 1.5# x2pair 3
T-shirts - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Socks - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Underwear - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Fleece Top -1.5# 1.5
Knit cap - 0.25# 0.25
Work Gloves - 1# 1
Work Knife - 1# x2 2
Hatchet - 3# 3
Poncho - 0.5# 0.5
Poncho liner - 0.25# 0.25
550 Cord - 5# 3
First Aid Kit - 3# 3
Pack - 5# 5
2qt - 1.5# x2 3
Digital Camera - 1# 1
PDA - 1# 1
Solar Charger - 1# 1
Total Weight 46lbs

Go Devil

05-09-2008, 10:40

There hasn't been alot of discussion on the topic of diet.
Many of us have loaded for "bear" and big kills offer great payoff for little investment. This type of meal is feasable if one has to hole-up for a period of time. Packing this amount of fresh food isn't a geat idea in a continent that held a higher population of bear and cougar in the 1700's, not to mention adding this to our maximum weight we are allowed to carry.

Those of us that plan on a shorter time frame would follow good primitive knowledge the natives of this country followed and focus on smaller, high fat content game that is consumed completely during a meal time per day.
Our good friend the coon offers just this type of meal and according to documented history was a main source of fat consumed by native peoples in the Ohio River Valley and regions north. At sometimes 50% body fat this makes alot of sense. Next to coon, bear is the next source of high body fat game if taken in fall or early winter.

I believe I may take a route from the east that meets the major waters of the Ohio River, meet the Mississipi to north of the same state and turn west.

Malaria will definately be a concern as it was still a large problem in Indiana in the mid to late 1800's.

I would definately bring along salt and would consider trading some of the .308
for medical equip.

I would attemt to avoid natives, but the continent was heavily populated at this time. We all know how strangers in the neighborhood make us feel, so don't leave any sign and avoid drawing attention.

Still working on the kit, but it will be very minimal.

Great Topic TR!

NoRoadtrippin

05-09-2008, 10:50

What do you plan to eat and drink?

This is where my current list does hit an issue and obviously it is one of primary importance. If I focus my food on the smaller, higher fat content game mentioned above, then hopefully I don't often have to carry too much weight in food. I'll certainly want to stay away from things like entire deer legs.

For water, the 3L Camelbak each day translates into about 6 lbs. of water. In drier areas, the the two Nalgenes add another 4 lbs. So, this puts me right at the 100 lbs considered to be on the high end of recommended weight.

I'm sure I would quickly find myself wanting to get rid of a few of the lightweight comfort items I have listed in my original list. The ounces do add up quickly.

The Reaper

05-09-2008, 10:57

Gold - 2# $25000 2
Boots - 4# x2pair 8
Pants - 1.5# x2pair 3
Blouse - 1.5# x2pair 3
T-shirts - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Socks - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Underwear - 0.25# 7pair 1.75
Fleece Top -1.5# 1.5
Knit cap - 0.25# 0.25
Work Gloves - 1# 1
Work Knife - 1# x2 2
Hatchet - 3# 3
Poncho - 0.5# 0.5
Poncho liner - 0.25# 0.25
550 Cord - 5# 3
First Aid Kit - 3# 3
Pack - 5# 5
2qt - 1.5# x2 3
Digital Camera - 1# 1
PDA - 1# 1
Solar Charger - 1# 1
Total Weight 46lbs

Read all of the previous posts before posting again.

$25,000 in gold in 1700 is roughly 50 pounds of it. And no one outside of the European settlers really have a hard value on it, so it is 50 pounds of dead weight once you cross the Appalachians.

No guns, should be exciting, if brief.

TR

x-factor

05-09-2008, 16:29

1) A couple of people have mentioned medical kits, but I think that bears emphasizing. Antibiotics would be critical considering the likelihood of infection spending so much time in the wild and crossing so many ecosystems.

2) I agree that its wise to be cautious about too much reliance on technology, but I would never, ever dream of attempting this without a laptop computer. The utility to weight ratio seems to me to be pretty high.

I'm sure that says as much about my field inexperience as the value of the computer, but nevertheless. If the premise is that you're going to overcome physical hardship with expertise, then why would you not want to have as much knowledge at your fingertips as possible? Furthermore, I want my mind focused on situational awareness and key decisions, not trying to remember minutia like what species of berry is good and what is poisonous.

In addition to carrying the wealth of map and historical/anthropological data already mentioned, you can carry:

- maps/geospatial data (discussed earlier)

- language/cultural guides (discussed earlier)

- medical guides (obviously you don't want to be looking at a computer screen while trying to perform trauma first aid, but for things like toxicology, pharmacology, nutrition, etc. it wouldn't hurt to have a reference manual and not have to rely solely on your memory)

- survival guides (obviously if you don't already know most of this by memory you shouldn't be on the trip, but it still wouldn't hurt to mitigate the risk of mistake by consulting the book every now and then...for example, shelter construction techniques, guide to wild fruit, animal anatomy for field cleaning/cooking, etc)

- ecology guides (like the medical, there's no reason to overburden your mind when you can carry the data with you at no added weight...this is especially true since you're going to be crossing through so many different ecosystems and no one in the world can be expected to master them all from memory)

- games/mental diversions (keeping a diary, playing a little chess, watching a movie, etc would help keep the mind fresh)

- record keeping (if one of the purposes of the trip is collection, as opposed to just personal challenge, then you're going to do a much better job if you've got the tools for the job...plus you're saving weight on paper and other such record keeping supplies)

3) The northern route through Canada is very tempting to me (even though I'm from Florida and hate the cold). By 1700 French fur-trappers had been running those woods as far west as the Dakotas for almost 100 years already, so there are going to be human networks to leverage: trails, rendevous points, established Indian alliances, etc. Plus, it seems to me that modern technology mitigates the cold problem of the northern route a lot better than it mitigates the desert problem of the southern route.

Kyobanim

05-09-2008, 16:56

2) I agree that its wise to be cautious about too much reliance on technology, but I would never, ever dream of attempting this without a laptop computer. The utility to weight ratio seems to me to be pretty high.

I've been waiting for that one to come up.

Ok, keep in mind that this is 1700. Now, power it for at least a year, how will you protect it from the environment, what's your backup, how do you repair your charging mechanism. I could go on but that's probably enough to start with.

This pretty much applies to everything you take in the way of technology. It's fun to say "I take this for this reason" but put a little thought into it. If you're taking paper/plastic maps to back up your PDA, why take the PDA? It's wasted weight. Electronics will kill you in that environment.

x-factor

05-09-2008, 17:09

Those are valid concerns and I would certainly take paper backups for critical information, like the map data. But, I'm pretty confident that I could find a solar power system to keep the laptop powered for the duration and an environmental pack (even if I have to custom build it) to keep it dry and particle free. That confidence, plus the high upside of the information advantage, puts it in my pack.

Also, its not wasted weight, because you can carry VASTLY more data electronically than on paper...way more than just maps, whole libraries. Besides, its not like paper (even the material used for E&E maps) is indestructible either. If you drop your pack in the river, its going to sink regardless of if its got a laptop or paper maps in it.

Furthermore, TR's original post said that "to keep a record of your travels" is part of the mission. You can do that to an exponentially greater degree of detail and fidelity electronically than you can on paper notes.

I respect the need for hardcopy backups, but the weight-to-utility ratio is just too good for me not to take a computer.

Sten

05-09-2008, 17:30

I respect the need for hardcopy backups, but the weight-to-utility ratio is just too good for me not to take a computer.

How are you going to protect your laptop from falls, rain, full freeze thaw cycles, complete submersion in rivers, smacks into trees?

x-factor

05-09-2008, 17:33

How are you going to protect your laptop from falls, rain, full freeze thaw cycles, complete submersion in rivers, smacks into trees?

falls - ruggedized machine, cushioned place in the pack
freeze-thaw - thermal resistant case, when necessary keep it close to body heat to steady temp
submersion - watertight container
smacks into trees - ruggedized machine, don't use as hammer

nmap

05-09-2008, 17:49

Those are valid concerns and I would certainly take paper backups for critical information, like the map data. But, I'm pretty confident that I could find a solar power system to keep the laptop powered for the duration and an environmental pack (even if I have to custom build it) to keep it dry and particle free. That confidence, plus the high upside of the information advantage, puts it in my pack.

X-factor, I've never used any of the hardened equipment you're probably familiar with. Most of the PDAs and laptops I've used have been horrifically fragile, with a tendency to fail just when they're most needed. I can't imagine my desktop machine going for a year without some serious maintenance, even though the worst abuse it faces is a cat on the keyboard. My PDA battery dies permanently if I forget to recharge it - annoying here, but more problematic in the exercise.

So, I'm asking to learn - would the equipment really hold up for a year in such an environment?

lksteve

05-09-2008, 17:50

submersion - watertight container
smacks into trees - ruggedized machine, don't use as hammerI've spent 22 years as a soldier and the last 14 as a surveyor...there is no such thing as ruggedized, waterproof or weather-resistant...at -4 degrees F, LCD screens start acting funny...at 110 degrees F, LCD screens start acting funny...there is no such thing as durable...the more something costs, the more likely it is to fail you when you need it...FWIW, YMMV...

x-factor

05-09-2008, 17:59

If its custom built ($), well protected, and you're careful with it. I think there's a better than fair chance it lasts.

If I recall, the rule of thumb for laptops in Afghanistan was six months and the primary killer was dust (not nearly as big a problem in America) and those were off-the-shelf, largely unruggedized, and not very well cared for.

lksteve

05-09-2008, 18:01

If its custom built ($), well protected, and you're careful with it. I think there's a better than fair chance it lasts.I'll bank on my 36 years of experience...

Go Devil

05-09-2008, 18:06

when necessary keep it close to body heat to steady temp

Attn: X-Factor

When you begin wasting personal BTU's on objects that don't feed you, keep you warm, or protect your body, you may want to check yourself for dimentia.

You could save much more weight, effort, and fret and prepare your mind by educating the hard drive between your ears.

x-factor

05-09-2008, 18:18

Maybe so, but the information on that computer is going to contribute directly and significantly to my safety and well-being, plus its going to allow to keep a far better record of the trip.

lksteve

05-09-2008, 18:25

Maybe so, but the information on that computer is going to contribute directly and significantly to my safety and well-being, plus its going to allow to keep a far better record of the trip.News Flash...I have surveyed several thousand miles of roads in an area for a GIS and road design...kept the entire project on a data collector about the size of an HP49,,,that information included every waypoint, with both a local grid coordinate and lat/long, its elevation and ellipsoid height, a description of the waypoint, along with attribute values and command codes to link line work...included were GEOID and ellipsoid models, coordinate projection systems and the capability to take notes...I could keep it in the side pocket of a ruck or stow it deep in the ruck when I was doing something where my data might be at risk...a laptop is weight and volume you will not have...but once again, I've only been doing this sort of thing since I was 18...

Max_Tab

05-09-2008, 18:36

I'd bring one, maybe not a full size laptop but something like this

http://www.oqo.com/store/shop.cgi/op/op_index.html?source=www.google.com&semspring08

put it in a small pelican case with an external harddrive and a you have a ruggedized watertight container. that only weighs a pound or two. Does it last the whole trip? Maybe. If it shit's the bed, you just chuck it, and lighten your load. The specific data you could put on there would be worth the risk too me.

Damn, MT, that's mighty dry country,,,I've lived in CO, UT, and NV and work quite a bit in CA...

There's a hell of a lot more water there than taking the southern route. Using my PDA, I can plot where all the water hole's were back then also. :D

Max_Tab

05-09-2008, 18:43

I do hope you're taking into account that you might be hitting the Rockies in the dead of winter...... What's your plan for crossing those mountains?

TS

I'd hole up for the winter, then continue on in the spring.

I would not need a map or compass to cross the United States.... You might want to think about that.

TS

I might not need a map, hell, just head west, but a map would be nice to find the best passes through the mountains were, so you are not having to reinvent the wheel.

SF_BHT

05-09-2008, 18:48

I'd bring one, maybe not a full size laptop but something like this

http://www.oqo.com/store/shop.cgi/op/op_index.html?source=www.google.com&semspring08

put it in a small pelican case with an external harddrive and a you have a ruggedized watertight container. that only weighs a pound or two. Does it last the whole trip? Maybe. If it shit's the bed, you just chuck it, and lighten your load. The specific data you could put on there would be worth the risk too me.

There's a hell of a lot more water there than taking the southern route. Using my PDA, I can plot where all the water hole's were back then also. :D

If your laptop or gear craps out you need to do the ultimate Cache. Use your Future knowledge and Cache it somewhere that when you return to 200? you can go and recover it. That would be a trick.:munchin

x-factor

05-09-2008, 19:12

News Flash...I have surveyed several thousand miles of roads in an area for a GIS and road design...kept the entire project on a data collector about the size of an HP49,,,that information included every waypoint, with both a local grid coordinate and lat/long, its elevation and ellipsoid height, a description of the waypoint, along with attribute values and command codes to link line work...included were GEOID and ellipsoid models, coordinate projection systems and the capability to take notes...I could keep it in the side pocket of a ruck or stow it deep in the ruck when I was doing something where my data might be at risk...a laptop is weight and volume you will not have...but once again, I've only been doing this sort of thing since I was 18...

If it sounded like I was being flip about your experience, I apologize, I wasn't. Your pocket system may very well fill the bill and if it does I would take that instead.

There's more data to carry on the laptop than just the basic GIS you describe though. Go back and look at all the stuff I listed. I'm talking about basically carrying a geospatially-enabled encyclopedia (both natural and cultural) of the American frontier around. I may be wrong, but think that requires something bigger and more powerful than a pocket surveying tool.

Plus, back on the recording thing, alot of the recording you're doing isn't going to be quantitative surveying data. Its going to be visual and anecdotal. How did this or that area look in 1700? You're going to be taking a lot of pictures (even video?) and writing a lot of descriptions. To me its more efficient to take a laptop for that type of detailed collection.

Also, I agree with MT. I don't see a reason to try to travel through the winter. That mitigates some of the danger to the equipment.

lksteve

05-09-2008, 19:37

There's a hell of a lot more water there than taking the southern route. Using my PDA, I can plot where all the water hole's were back then also.There's also a hell of a lot of brackish and alkaline water beginning in Utah and continuing on across the Great Basin...once you hit the east slope of the Sierra, water quality improves...but this place has been desert a long time and for a pretty good reason...

But since you've decided to travel that way, my question is do you follow the route of I-70 or I-80...? Those roads are there for a reason...the I-70 corridor would be much more challenging for a man on foot than I-80...and I-80 was a jumping off point for the routes of the Oregon Trail, Pony Express and the Donner Party...

lksteve

05-09-2008, 19:47

There's more data to carry on the laptop than just the basic GIS you describe though. Go back and look at all the stuff I listed. I'm talking about basically carrying a geospatially-enabled encyclopedia (both natural and cultural) of the American frontier around. The data collectors we have possess Clarke's reference ellipsoids from the 19th century...in the same data collector I have the roads in, I also have coordinate projections for Zimbabwe and Lapland...I can reduce a solar and stellar observations, make note of existing features, and compute, annotate and map stream velocity...hell, I can generate fairly decent maps as I go, but I'm not real sure where I would print one out at...and with a thumbdrive or flash memory card, I have memory storage enough for any add-ons one might need...there are a couple of models out there that will allow me to record and store weather information...I don't do basic GIS work...I do cadastral and topographic survey work, advanced GIS work, resource inventories...the stuff that the Corps of Discovery did during the Lewis and Clark expedition...you really have no idea of the capabilities of current survey equipment...and you seem uninterested in learning...

x-factor

05-09-2008, 19:56

No, on the contrary, I'm very interested. If I were making such a trip, I'd definitely demo lots of different systems. Yours may indeed be better.

Can you store jpegs or video? geo-referenced media? html content?

Max_Tab

05-09-2008, 20:08

There's also a hell of a lot of brackish and alkaline water beginning in Utah and continuing on across the Great Basin...once you hit the east slope of the Sierra, water quality improves...but this place has been desert a long time and for a pretty good reason...

But since you've decided to travel that way, my question is do you follow the route of I-70 or I-80...? Those roads are there for a reason...the I-70 corridor would be much more challenging for a man on foot than I-80...and I-80 was a jumping off point for the routes of the Oregon Trail, Pony Express and the Donner Party...

Probable the I 80 corridor, once I left CO I would try and stay on the north sides of the states. Maybe even moving a little bit into Idaho. But I would finish up in northern CA or even southern OR.

lksteve

05-09-2008, 20:24

Can you store jpegs or video? geo-referenced media? html content?RTFI...you are taking a digital camera...additional memory for the camera is lighter than a laptop...

Max_Tab

05-09-2008, 21:40

I was just thinking. I might end my little trek in El Dorado County, California (after reaching the Pacific Ocean). Make myself a little cabin, do a little hunting, relax, collect some pretty rocks, and just wait for my ride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloma%2C_California

x-factor

05-09-2008, 21:55

RTFI...you are taking a digital camera...additional memory for the camera is lighter than a laptop...

Yes, I'm taking a camera, but thats not what my question was referring to.

I'm talking about for the interactive encyclopedia/field guide I'm going to take back with me. For example, I want to have a plant life database identifiying different types of plant life so I know what I can eat, what I can use for a salve, etc. I want every entry in the database to have multiple jpegs for ID purposes. Can I put that on your pocket device?

I was also thinking, when building my field guide I'd definitely visit as many Indian reservations and consult with as many tribal historians as possible. If you're lucky they might even have family trees going back far enough to tell you who important tribal figures were in 1700.

BryanK

05-14-2008, 14:14

Though my field time is limited at best, I have been primitive camping for many years. This is without a doubt a very ominous assignment. To fathom a trek across America on foot alone is foolhardy, but I'll give 'er a shot.
Can this be accomplished successfully? God Willing
Do you accept the challenge? Yes
Where do you start? Port at Locust Point (Baltimore, MD)
What route do you take? What is now the central region of the United States, heading northwest after negotiating the Mississippi river.
Where do you plan to finish? What is now Cannon Beach, Oregon
How long do you think it will take you? 2 ½ years
What is in your field gear?
Fire starting materials, knife/sharpening stones, climbing rope, carabiners, burlap bag, waterproof bags, 550 cord, 100mph tape, ponchos 2ea, Warm clothes appropriate for the climates I will be traveling through, sun-hat, wool hat, Asolo boots 2pr, moccasins, gloves (both for work and warmth), Water purification tablets, salt, one 10x20 tarp to start with(cutting as I go to better suit my needs once acclimated), aluminum tent stakes, bug juice, land nav manual, survival manual, weapon cleaning kit, brass hammer, 3ea 1/8 in. punches, 5ea 1/16 in punches, pliers, E-tool, fishing line, hooks, flies, mirror, hygiene gear, antibiotics/first aid kit, canteen cup 2ea, camelback, 1ea 2qt, 2ea 1qt canteens, composition books x2, foot notes about the various cultures, and waterproof/temperature resistant pens.
What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?
Critical modern items: As stated in the parameters- Palm PDA, Canon Powershot camera with memory cards, Olympus VN4100 recorder, and a Solio charger or two with adapters. Items of the time: tobacco, salt, clothing of the time, and various Native American ornaments from each tribe I may encounter in my travels (kind of lightning jack, I know).
What are your priorities? Stay focused, stay calm, food, shelter, water procurement.
How will you carry it? Kifaru Pointman, with Gunbearer attached, and LBE.
What firearms will you take? Thompson Center Encore pistol in 45/70 govt, Henry US survival .22, Ruger 10/22 w/scope/integrated silencer, and a Flintlock pistol w/equipment (in case someone wants to know what made that “BANG” that he heard earlier from my direction).
How much ammo, accessories, etc.? 150 rounds of 45/70 govt, 1000 rounds of .22lr or more if it won’t weigh too much, and a few spare parts (i.e., trigger groups, extractors, ejectors, springs, spring pins)
What edged tools do you take? Gerber multi-tool, Benchmade 158 , Benchmade Axis.
What navigational aids do you take? Manual, custom made 1:24,000 scale maps of the route I’ve chosen in waterproof tube, Brunton Geo Pocket Transit 2ea
What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey? 100%
What do you do in the 30 days before you leave? Take various history lessons, and in depth wilderness survival courses (maybe one of those held by EDIT by the Team Sergeant I don't believe these individuals that run that "school" have the intelligence of a dust mite. And we're not going to promote idiots.

Pete

05-14-2008, 14:40

Hmm 40 Lbs

http://www.foldingkayaks.org/

Time is money and the worst kind of ride beats the best kind of walking.

While a big hit on what you can take it, and a bear to hump up the Appalachians it would come into its own on the other side. 5 mph down river x 10 hours = 50+ miles a day. Down the Ohio in early spring to the Mississippi.

Could make some time up the Platte after the spring floods.

Thoughts? Advantages vs Drawbacks

The Reaper

05-14-2008, 14:54

[QUOTE=BryanK;209778]Though my field time is limited at best, I have been primitive camping for many years. This is without a doubt a very ominous assignment. To fathom a trek across America on foot alone is foolhardy, but I'll give 'er a shot.
Can this be accomplished successfully? God Willing
Do you accept the challenge? Yes
Where do you start? Port at Locust Point (Baltimore, MD)
What route do you take? What is now the central region of the United States, heading northwest after negotiating the Mississippi river.
Where do you plan to finish? What is now Cannon Beach, Oregon
How long do you think it will take you? 2 ½ years
What is in your field gear?
Fire starting materials, knife/sharpening stones, climbing rope, carabiners, burlap bag, waterproof bags, 550 cord, 100mph tape, ponchos 2ea, Warm clothes appropriate for the climates I will be traveling through, sun-hat, wool hat, Asolo boots 2pr, moccasins, gloves (both for work and warmth), Water purification tablets, salt, one 10x20 tarp to start with(cutting as I go to better suit my needs once acclimated), aluminum tent stakes, bug juice, land nav manual, survival manual, weapon cleaning kit, brass hammer, 3ea 1/8 in. punches, 5ea 1/16 in punches, pliers, E-tool, fishing line, hooks, flies, mirror, hygiene gear, antibiotics/first aid kit, canteen cup 2ea, camelback, 1ea 2qt, 2ea 1qt canteens, composition books x2, foot notes about the various cultures, and waterproof/temperature resistant pens.
What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?
Critical modern items: As stated in the parameters- Palm PDA, Canon Powershot camera with memory cards, Olympus VN4100 recorder, and a Solio charger or two with adapters. Items of the time: tobacco, salt, clothing of the time, and various Native American ornaments from each tribe I may encounter in my travels (kind of lightning jack, I know).
What are your priorities? Stay focused, stay calm, food, shelter, water procurement.
How will you carry it? Kifaru Pointman, with Gunbearer attached, and LBE.
What firearms will you take? Thompson Center Encore pistol in 45/70 govt, Henry US survival .22, Ruger 10/22 w/scope/integrated silencer, and a Flintlock pistol w/equipment (in case someone wants to know what made that “BANG” that he heard earlier from my direction).
How much ammo, accessories, etc.? 150 rounds of 45/70 govt, 1000 rounds of .22lr or more if it won’t weigh too much, and a few spare parts (i.e., trigger groups, extractors, ejectors, springs, spring pins)
What edged tools do you take? Gerber multi-tool, Benchmade 158 , Benchmade Axis.
What navigational aids do you take? Manual, custom made 1:24,000 scale maps of the route I’ve chosen in waterproof tube, Brunton Geo Pocket Transit 2ea
What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey? 100%
What do you do in the 30 days before you leave? Take various history lessons, and in depth wilderness survival courses (maybe one of those held by EDIT by the Team Sergeant I don't believe these individuals that run that "school" have the intelligence of a dust mite. And we're not going to promote idiots.

Bryan:

How many pounds of lightweight gear do you think you are packing there?

TR

BryanK

05-14-2008, 17:10

Bryan:

How many pounds of lightweight gear do you think you are packing there?

TR

I know it appears that I was grocery shopping hungry, but for a venture that lengthy I couldn't imagine anything less. This would be an initial carry of course. If the load became too great, I would dump the equipment as I went along. As far as a rough estimate, 80-90lbs. I will compile the approximate weight as soon as I can.

P.S. TS, no more posts advertising, roger.

The Reaper

05-14-2008, 17:52

I know it appears that I was grocery shopping hungry, but for a venture that lengthy I couldn't imagine anything less. This would be an initial carry of course. If the load became too great, I would dump the equipment as I went along. As far as a rough estimate, 80-90lbs. I will compile the approximate weight as soon as I can.

P.S. TS, no more posts advertising, roger.

Interesting list, thanks for posting it.

I'd say you are closer to 150-200 pounds, especially with the four firearms and ammo. I would estimate their weight at 60-70 pounds.

If you insist on the burlap and tarps, rather than modern, lightweight gear, you are going to be way over.

Maps, as mentioned before, are going to be very heavy. You are going to need at least 185 sheets, if you can keep your course straight as an arrow within the 15 mile or so N-S height of the map. That is enough to paper the roof of a small house. If you want to allow for a little drifting, bypassing, or exploring, you will need to double or triple that number.

Don't forget to add the food and water you are going to have to pack.

Just a few thoughts.

TR

The Reaper

05-15-2008, 10:37

Okay, since there seems to be a lull here, let me make a modest proposal.

This is by no means all inclusive, or even well-thought out, just some random ideas based on my personal experiende and the lists you guys have provided.

Can this be accomplished successfully?

Yes, but it will depend on luck almost as much as skill. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong step, wrong bite, and you are 1,500 miles from a sawbones with circa 1700 training and tech, with a busted leg and no options.

Do you accept the challenge?

Sure, where is the glory in staying home?

Where do you start?

Charleston or Savannah, in early March.

What route do you take?

I would look for a southern route, probably along the Charleston-LA or SD corridor, and would look for handrails to keep me on the right track. The NC route goes through the highest mountains east of the Mississippi, and too far south and you have to cross way too many water obstacles feeding the Gulf. Much further North and you run into really bad winters, and hostile tribes. The western part of the CHS-LA route requires crossing mountains, deserts, or both, but there are some Spanish settlements and missions there. A good plan should select for regular availability of water and use of known passes through the mountains. I would plan to avoid hostile tribes, take advantage of settlements, plentiful game and travel along rivers whenever possible. Yes, I would try and barter for a canoe (possibly with native paddlers) for river travel whenever possible. I do not want to portage it though, so it is easier to "rent" one as you get to a water route. This would also allow you to take a LOT more supplies when traveling by boat.

Where do you plan to finish?

I want to finish in San Diego or LA, depending on further recon. If I get there early, it wouldn’t matter, I would just move from your arrival point to the pick-up point and settle in for a while.

How long do you think it will take you?

I would hope for 9 months, but BPT take as long as 2 years. I would probably call for exfil at 15-18 months or so.

What is in your field gear?

Just what I need. Note that this is not a school solution, or all inclusive, merely reason to think.

The ruck will be key, since you are going to be under it for nine to twenty-four months. Might want to pack some spare straps and fastex buckles, as well as an awl and some heavy canvas or sail type needles. The AMK repair kit would be a good base kit.

Potable water is going to be very important. Bladders are lightweight, and I would rather hump an extra pound or two of unused weight (and have some handy floatation devices as well), rather than play “how many days can I go without water” death race from water hole to water hole in the West. I would want at least six liters of bladder capacity, that is only a day or two of supply when you are working hard. A Camelback with a spare bladder and a couple of the old 5 qt. collapsible canteens, with two Nalgene bottles would be my preference. I would take a multi-directional approach to purification with an MSR Miox, some coffee filters, some WP tabs, and possibly a small pump type filter.

Cooking gear, due to weight restrictions, is going to be Spartan. No cast iron here. Probably the best set of Titanium nested cookware I can find. A Ti cup fitting the Nalgene bottles would be good. Ti utensils. The largest Ti pot I could find as well, put the rest of the items inside of it. As many Ziplocs and resealable containers as I can find. Several large contractor trash bags for multiple purposes. An alcohol burning stove would be good to have, you could purchase fuel for it, and there are not going to be too many sources of supply for gas bottles, refined petroleum products, or the like.

At least a half dozen BICs and a few waterproofed matches with a Sparklite, and some tinder would be essential tools for firestarting.

You have to have salt. I would try to start with at least a year’s worth, and would add to it at every opportunity. It is an excellent barter item. Pepper, hot sauce, spices are good, and do not weigh too much. Tabasco could help cover the flavor of unsavory things you will have to eat. Add hard rations as weight permits. Pemmican, jerky, ramen, rice, beans, flour, corn meal, sugar, powdered drink mix, hard candies, etc.

Boots will be critical. One really good pair, freshly broken in, with good footbeds, and perhaps a spare set of soles that could be tacked or sewn in during the winter months to repair them and combat boredom. A pair of shower shoes or moccasins could come in handy, should weight permit. Several good pairs of heavy socks, like the Ingenius, and a couple of pair of thin dress socks would be essential.

As many synthetic and silk undergarments as weight will allow would be welcome. Wool or fleece layers, a good tight windshirt, like the PCU or Arktis, with a water- repellant, wind resistant outer layer of a permeable membrane would be my choice for clothing. I think that woodland BDU or Crye would be a good camo, perhaps something more toward a tan if you were trying to remain low-profile when seen or you were taking a desert route. One or two spare pants and shirts. A couple of wicking t-shirts. At least one pair of winter gloves or mittens, and a set of working gloves. Don’t forget shading hats as well as warm headgear. The old Army issue sewing kit would be ideal for light clothing repairs. Don’t forget a couple of the microfiber towels for cleanups. Vacuum pack all compressible items to same space, and save the bags after opening for additional uses. I would ensure that I had at least one good pair of sunglasses, and two pairs of prescription glasses, if necessary, with a repair
kit.

For shelter, a light two-man tent seems to be about right to me, along with a good sleeping bag, bivvy cover, liner, and Thermarest or pad.

The collapsible saws are very handy, but are no substitute for an axe. Different tools, different purposes. I would take a smallish camp axe, the saw, hacksaw blades, a file or two, sharpening gear, and an e-tool as the minimum.

I would probably get stupid with the knives and take a ton. If I had to be limited to a reasonable number, I would take my Harsey Reaper or Brend #2, a small 4” or so fixed blade for food prep, skinning, etc., my large Sebenza, and my Leatherman Charge Ti. If weight permitted, I would consider a second multi-tool as a spare. It is small and if you lost the first one and had no spare, life would get a lot harder. You could probably get a large Bowie type or an axe forged for you by a blacksmith. You will not be able to make a Leatherman.

550 cord is very handy, but 500’ is a half of a roll. A little 100 mph tape could fix a lot of problems as well as several tubes of Crazy Glue, and a tube of Shoe Goo or the equivalent. Add a roll of electrical tape as well. A fistful of assorted zip-ties. Maybe a small container of nails, tacks, screws, fasteners, etc. A few jumpers with electrical wire and alligator clips for electronic emergencies and transferring power. A hundred feet or so of snare wire to lash things up and catch dinner, and some premade snares. Several small bungies would be nice, and a short length of climbing rope, maybe 50’ of 10mm kermantle with a few pieces of climbing hardware.

The Reaper

05-15-2008, 10:37

I would want large scale JOG type maps 1:250,000 to 1:1,000,000 of the area I would be travelling through 5-20 sheets, total, probably detailed coverage of the route chosen and perhaps 100 miles on either side of it, in the event of natural disasters, detours, etc., annotated with settlements, trading points, water sources, native tribes and their settlements, languages spoken, migratory game routes, etc. Possibly some imagery of key areas. Waterproofed map weight cannot exceed five pounds. The rest, detailed down to 1:24,000, has to be on electronic media. I would take a Silva Ranger or two, and three or four smaller compasses for backups and trading. My Casio Triple–Sensor solar chargable watch would be my first choice for a watch.

I would take several small LED flashlights, a couple of headlights (one large Petzl and one small), and would consider a very compact NVD should weight and space allow. All would have to be AA or 123 powered to reduce battery requirements. I would take several micro-lights, maybe a fistful to barter. A candle lantern would be nice to take the edge off the chill in the tent and could use period candles when yours burned out.

A rollable/foldable solar charger with adaptors for the spare batteries and devices would be necessary, and would ride atop my ruck during the day.

For electronics, either a large toughened PDA or a micro laptop with the largest hard drive available, with detailed maps, language and cultural data, an almanac, weather patterns, game migration, edible flora and fauna, useful facts,survival manuals and books, and as many movies and songs as I could cram in. Back up important files to thumbdrives. You do not want to be walking in a potentially hostile environment tuned out and listening to your tunes, but an IPOD could make a good tool for learning languages or combating boredom in the winter months.

I would look for the best set of mini-binos available, and take them. If I was really hurting on weight, at least a monocular.

Fish are an easy source of food. I would take a small kit of tackle, a couple hundred feet of Spider Wire, and as noted elsewhere, a net.

I would bring a full shaving kit, to include dental hygiene, soap, shampoo, a razor, shaving brush, a comb, scissors, mirror, towel, and a roll of TP in a zip-loc bag. I would seek additional paper products when at a settlement. Hygiene is essential to health in this environment.

I would bring a very robust med kit, with vitamins, lots of analgesics, betadine, prescription meds (especially pain killers and antibiotics), foot care, bandages, trauma kit, dental emergency kit, minor surgery set, splints, cold remedies, etc. In fact, someone with the proper training might even be able to move from tribe to tribe as a sort of healer. This could have secondary effects though, from either losing patients, or saving too many and becoming indispensible.

Issued gear would be the digi cam, with AA rechargeable batteries and spare flash cards, download cable, digital recorder with AAs, and the PDA with all chargers, cables, etc.

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?

I would start with mostly modern gear, and add period items as needed. Obviously modern firearms, ammo, edged tools, fabrics, lights, firestarters, and electronics are essential. Period items usable could be food, fuel, candles, some clothing, etc.

What are your priorities?

Security, shelter, water, food, health, closing on the OBJ.

How will you carry it?

Kifaru ruck and on person.

What firearms will you take?

As far as weapons go, I think that the best combo of dealing with hostile natives, thugs, large predators, and game animals of all sizes is a .308 battle rifle. An M1A, FAL, HK-91, or AR type rifle would be more than adequate. I would add a good low mag optic in the 1-5x range, like the Nightforce, in a solid mount. You should not need more than three or four mags, max, and 200 rounds or so, call it 180 Premium JHP hunting rounds and 20 tracer. You should not be plinking at rabbits or learning how to shoot with it. The rifle is for dangerous game, large game, or defense against human predators. For a two year trip, to need to engage 200 targets, you planned poorly, are exceptionally unlucky, or are a bad shot. The 200 rounds of rifle ammo alone are 12 lbs or so. For a side arm, I would take a semi-auto target .22LR, with an integral suppressor, three spare mags, and 1,000 rounds of ammo, mixed HV .22LR HPs and subsonic match. That is your working gun. Just for giggles, throw in a .22LR NAA Mini-Revolver as a hideout gun. Some Break-Free CLP, a toothbrush, and a couple of bore snakes should do for maintenance. Those looking at bolt guns should at least consider a military design like a Mauser, SMLE, or Springfield for its ruggedness and durability over commercial hunting rifles.

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?

See above.

What edged tools do you take?

The collapsible saws are very handy, but are no substitute for an axe. Different tools, different purposes. I would take a smallish camp axe, the saw, hacksaw blades, a file or two, sharpening gear, and an e-tool as the minimum.

I would probably get stupid with the knives and take a ton. If I had to be limited to a reasonable number, I would take my Harsey Reaper or Brend #2, a small 4” or so fixed blade for food prep, skinning, etc., my large Sebenza or T-3, and my Leatherman Charge Ti. If weight permitted, I would consider a second multi-tool as a spare. It is small and if you lost the first one and had no spare, life would get a lot harder.

What navigational aids do you take?

I would want large scale JOG type maps of the area I would be travelling through, probably detailed coverage of the route chosen and perhaps 100 miles on either side of it, in the event of natural disasters, detours, etc., annotated with settlements, trading points, water sources, native tribes and their settlements, languages spoken, migratory game routes, etc. Possibly some imagery of key areas. Waterproofed map weight cannot exceed five pounds. The rest has to be on electronic media. I would take a Silva Ranger or two, and three or four smaller compasses for backups and trading. Add a half dozen protractors, those things always seem to get lost. A set of pace beads would be helpful, but you can make them from anything. My Casio Triple –Sensor solar chargable watch would be my choice of a watch.

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?

Probably even, for an SF guy with the right gear and a good prep. No better than that due to the unknown hazards, and the ever present Murphy waiting to twist your ankle, give you a snakebite, catch a fever, strand you in the mountains during winter, in the desert during an extended drought, lose your ruck in the river, drown you, hit you with lightning, have you hit by a swarm of bees, give you food poisoning,
crypto, giardia, etc.

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?

I would spend the 30 days making and breaking camp every night, refreshing my land nav skills, testing my gear, toughening my conditioning, working on hunting skills, and practicing my game catching, preparation, and cooking skills. I would get an inoculation for every disease possible, and all of the dental treatment needed. My initial efforts would be toward an area study and a map recon of potential routes. In my spare time, I would be studying history, culture, language, edible plants and animals, stellar navigation, survival, etc. As soon as my route selection had narrowed it down to a couple of COAs, I would overfly the routes in a small plane, them drive the primary looking for landmarks, terrain features, river crossings, water sources, etc.

I would look for a southern route, probably along the Charleston-LA or SD corridor, and would look for handrails to keep me on the right track. The NC route goes through the highest mountains east of the Mississippi, and too far south and you have to cross way too many water obstacles. The western part of the route requires crossing mountains, deserts, or both. A good plan should select for regular availability of water and use of known passes through the mountains. I would plan to avoid hostile tribes, take advantage of settlements, plentiful game and travel along rivers whenever possible.

Any smokers or dippers would be well advised to use this time to quit, or lose mission essential gear for smokes or dip, only to run out somewhere along the way and have a nicotine withdrawal attack. Same with alcohol or drugs.

I would take a pack of playing cards, though.

Hope that helps explain another perspective. Anyone else got any ideas?

TR

nmap

05-15-2008, 10:55

Anyone else got any ideas?
TR

Sir, I wonder why a betalight or two wouldn't be worthwhile? They're reasonably available in Europe, and available here to military and law enforcement personnel. Exit markers are even smaller (and lighter), available to civilians, and provide some light. Held in an open palm, they provide enough light to read a map, or a little text. I would think spares would make unique trade goods, so long as one could avoid accusations of sorcery.

An example, the SM166, can be seen HERE (http://www.srbtechnologies.com/saftey.htm). They're made of a small glass tube charged with a little tritium, all encased in a durable plastic envelope. The half-life of 7 years should be sufficient.

The Reaper

05-15-2008, 10:58

What does it weigh?

What does it do that a Photon Micro-light and a few spare batteries will not?

TR

gagners

05-15-2008, 11:00

TR-

Looks pretty comprehensive. Any idea what it all would weigh?

The Reaper

05-15-2008, 11:11

TR-

Looks pretty comprehensive. Any idea what it all would weigh?

I haven't added it up, but I own most of it already and have taken it to the field before. Frankly, I did not see to many luxuries there for an unsupported solo journey of 2,500 miles in a wilderness with elevations from below sea level to more than 12,000 feet, full climate extremes from 50 below to 125 degrees.

Any deletions would have to be made up for during the period, and giving up a3 ounce titanium cup on infil, to replace it with a 10 ounce steel one when you get there, is a false economy.

I think that I have gone light on the ammo, but could assume further risk there if necessary. My concern would be burning 20 or 30 rounds in a single engagement and potentially coming up short later.

The clothing and shelter are already far lighter than what you will find there, and if you do not acquire tentage till winter comes, you will be humping a lot more weight than what I listed.

Hope that answers the mail.

TR

nmap

05-15-2008, 11:18

What does it weigh?

What does it do that a Photon Micro-light and a few spare batteries will not?

TR

Sir, the weight is 18.6 grams for the SM166. The advantage is that it does not require batteries and has no mechanical elements, such as a switch, which might be fouled by dust, mud, or other debris. Finally, it is not affected by temperature or other environmental conditions.

The Photon gives a much brighter light. I can see benefits in that. But if it was a dark night, on flat terrain, bright lights might attract unwanted attention.

Go Devil

05-15-2008, 11:20

Still sorting this out, haven't had much available time.

300 Day Crossing of Continental U.S.

ROUTE: (Haven't solidified point of origin or destination yet.) Westerly to meet head waters of Ohio River.
Meet Mississippi River, continue South to North end
of Mississippi State.
Move Westerly on Northern borders of Texas,NM, and
Arizona.
Utilizing modern topographic data and interstate
routs through passes.

MOVEMENT: Night movement over open expanses and arid
environments. Avoiding natives if possible, not likely.

SCHEDULE: 3rds, 1 per mountain range.

WATER: Daily Hydration Pack, 2ea. Collapsible 5gal water
container. Collapsible 2QT canteen, 2ea. Filtration pump and hose.
2qt cooking pot with spoon.

STORES: Salt,. . . . . . . ? Energy Bar of sorts...

PROCUREMENT: Small game; Coon, Groundhog, squirrel.
Large game if nessesary. Fish and turtle.

FIREARMS: .308 M1, .. I will trade the 20GA for a 22LR SA Rifle.

EDGED TOOLS: Hatchet, 2ea. Axe, 1ea. CRKT M16-10KZ, 20ea
Sharpener...

GEAR: Kifaru EMR with load bearing (CHAIR) extension. Misc. webbing, poly
thread, needles, zip-ties, duct-tape, super glue.

Still working.

x-factor

05-15-2008, 14:13

I'd be curious to hear from someone (18Ds?) if "fattening up" (overeating so as to up your body fat a couple of percent and give you a little margin for error in the nutrition department) a little in the pre-launch month would be advisable.

On the imagery thing...if you're going to carry a microlaptop you can carry UNCLASS imagery of the whole country at a very good resolution. However, the utility of doing so would largely compromised by the 300 years between target and collection. Still, for certain areas it may be useful.

The same thing is true for the maps. Any map you carry is going to need to be CUSTOM made, extrapolated back to 1700 based on historical sources, hydrographic-topographic-geologic research, etc. Honestly, the more I think about this, I don't know if you could do a decent job on the IPB in 30 days unless you had a fairly significant intel staff of subject matter experts already lined up.

Pete

05-15-2008, 14:17

Peregrino

05-15-2008, 17:52

Father Marquette with Louis Jolliet came down the Mississippi in bark canoes past the location that would be St Louis in 1673. They wrote that they were well recieved by the Indians in that area.

The Jamestown settlement (greater) area was estimated to have around 70,000 people in 1697.

By around 1740 the Carolinas were estimated to have over 100,000.

It is an interesting period in the "New World History".

Edited to add - The Hudson Bay Company was formed around 1670.

Quality IPB. We're finally getting people to look at the "human" terrain. X-factor mentioned the fur trapping "industry" and Pete is the first to followup on it. Large portions of North America were already fairly well explored by 1700. So far, based on the extant discussions, the major modifications to my own list are to include a silenced .22 pistol, ammo for same, and a quality set of "scout" binos.

Pete

05-15-2008, 18:15

OK, I threw tent vs tarp out on the first page. Most have gone with tent while a rare few went with tarp.

I'll defend the lowly tarp.

Both offer shelter from bad weather. In good weather both would stay packed. In real cold clear weather both can be layed out and wrapped over your sleeping bag/cover/bed.

A tent must be set up and your equipment moved inside or stacked outside. Once inside you are stuck there. Go inside wet in a driving rain and there you are wet. Keeps raining for three days and there you are unless you pack up in the rain and move out.

Once inside your visability is limited. Hear a noise outside and you have a limited field of view and must move or make noise for a better look. Getting out in a hurry can sometimes be comical - and that would be the last thing needed in an emergency.

A tarp can be set up a great variety of ways, over a rope tied between two trees and staked to the ground on each side like an A frame tent, one pole up in a diamond shape with it's back to the wind or up high like a fly.

In a driving rain you can pick a spot drop your ruck and set the tarp up as a fly over it. High at one end would allow you to build a small fire under it with the dry tinder you keep on you. Wet wood can be added to keep it going so you can brew up some hot water for pine neddle tea.

Also with a tarp if you hear a noise at night you can just open your eyes and you have a pretty good field of view without moving.

Winter Quarters? Review the huts built at Ft Donaldson during the Civil War. Easy quick shelters with a small fire pit.

Edited to add hut link

http://www.nps.gov/fodo/photosmultimedia/tourstop3.htm

This is a big one but shows a fire place. Some were half dugouts.

Sten

05-15-2008, 18:26

I am adding a multifunction and "collapsible" or perhaps reconfigurable Ti spear/kayak paddle (with detachable carbon fiber paddles that will be designed to double for snow shoe webbing)/walking stick, tent poles?.

I am really thinking speed is the key to survival.

The Donner party had two men that were able to walk out of Donner pass (not named that at the time :D) in an attempt to get rescue from the California side. This tells me that a motivated, well trained and prepared individual could make it even in winter.

Pete

05-15-2008, 18:33

Man, those north woods and the Mississippi were crawling with French woodsmen from 1674 to 1700.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09009b.htm

While the King of England granted land in the area that is now West VA and "to the north fork of the Potomac" starting in around 1669 it appears the Ohio valley area didn't start kicking into gear until post 1700.

Pete

05-16-2008, 06:46

Nobody wants to pack some Portable Soup?

http://www.pbs.org/lewisandclark/inside/idx_equ.html

A partial listing of what they took just over a hundred years later.

Notice the air rifle.

zuluzerosix

05-16-2008, 10:49

The Reaper

05-16-2008, 11:05

Oh God,

Please don't laugh at me...In addition to my essential gear I would want to take some small trinkits, maybe some simple lightweight dollar store type of junk. Not much just a few items. I will probably encounter natives. I would like to have some non-essential gear to trade. I learned a great lesson from my father.

We were in Chiapas in 1994 when the insurgency started. We were stranded and out of gas. He traded a $1.00 Micky Mouse watch to an Indian for 3 gallons of gas, made a new friend and we were able to get out of a bad area with an escort. I would't want to give up my gold unless I had to.

Trading gear is already discussed, look back through the thread.

I found the Lewis and Clark link that Pete posted had a list of trade items as well. No doubt based on actual trading, and not as likely to cause problems like some more modern items might. How much weight would a few hundred steel needles add?

TR

Pete S

05-16-2008, 11:50

Notice the air rifle.

Sounds amazing for the time period.

Peregrino

05-16-2008, 12:01

Sounds amazing for the time period.

It was a pretty amazing rifle. So was the firepower demonstration they did with it. Look into European history for period air rifles. Far more effective (within limits) than same period firearms. Good enough for sniping and feared enough to have "kill on sight" orders for people using them.

Razor

05-16-2008, 14:56

After a little Google work, I'm even more impressed by the capability of the air rifle they had--a magazine-fed repeater, apparently!

http://www.beemans.net/lewis-assault-rifle.htm

Pete

05-16-2008, 17:02

Lets all take a deep breath, sit down and tug at the ear and scratch the head a bit.

A number have come up with good lists, lots of nifty things but I'd guess most would weight out on the heavy side.

Most lists are like an assault pack, load up, crash into the woods and pop out on the other side.

I'd say each list is broken down into three parts. Bare items needed to survive the trip, items that enhance survival and comfort items. While most here would claim the comfort items are "Survival Items":D thats not quite right.

Beaver Fever - it's real and the mountain men knew of it. Prevention? Treat the water, filter the water or boil the water. Being alone even a "clear" spring would be suspect.

Is a filtration system a survival item or a comfort item? All a filtration system can do is filter water. I'll throw out that a couple gal. stainless steel stock pot has more use than a filtration system.

With a fire you can boil up a couple of gal of water real quick. Rains? Set it to catch the drip off the tarp. Also one of the fastest ways to treat a large amount of meat for a few days of quick travel is to boil it. You can stuff a lot of meat into a 2 gal pot.

Make a good stew you can keep it in the pot, reheat it for breakfast, set it in the canoe and reheat it for supper. When not in use it can be filled with small items and stowed in the pack.

Each item should be picked up and looked at. Ask "Does this item have only one use?" "Is it a use that can be replaced with something else?" "Will that other item be more useful?" "Do I need this item to survive or do I want it's comfort?"

Pete

A dull ax makes light work heavy.

Edited to add - I forgot - you can take a good bath with the hot water and clean you cloths in it also.

Distorted

05-19-2008, 00:33

http://lewisandclarkjournals.unl.edu/ <-- Journal of the Lewis and Clark expedition. This is my contribution to the thread, as I am under 21 and have not spent much time in the woods outside of some very basic stuff. This is how I would approach the problem.

I would start in Savannah, Georgia and end in San Francisco, California. San Francisco Bay is a massive, easily recognized terrain feature. I must simply reach the west coast and walk in the right direction. The climate in Georgia is far from tropical, but it is warm, and is probably more forgiving of a starting point than somewhere farther north and therefore colder.

I would set the pickup date for 1710. Problems have a way of popping up, and I would want to take it slowly and carefully, as well as spend some time looking around--I mean, this really is a once-in-a-lifetime shot, and I'm not going to rush it. Besides, San Francisco Bay is a beautiful area with plenty of arable land and a native settlement.

I would get a tooth replaced with a radio receiver of some sort, and put a powerful transmitter on the time machine--as I get closer, tooth vibrates harder. No sense missing my pickup because it landed in a tree, and it's not like there will be interference. An added benefit is that I could lose track of time and still make it.

Prep: Getting tattoos, vaccinations for everything, and I mean everything; a cultural study of the major Native American tribes of the period, and as much practice as is reasonable with a primitive bow and an experienced bowhunter/fletcher.

Tattoos:

1) Tattoo of the map of the continental US with rivers, mountains, forests, deserts etc marked clearly with as much detail as possible on my back. Tattoos of specific regions such as the Ohio valley, the Oregon trail route through the rockies, definitely California, Georgia, and other important areas along the route, determined by careful evaluation of maps and measurements of available space on my body put everywhere space is available.

2) Face tattoos designed to inspire impressions of native deities; another thing to consult historians about.

Weapons: Snares, Machete (sharpening stone), metal arrowheads as many as reasonable, modern arrow-shafts and feathers, and compound bow. 20lbs C4 + detonators. Several small spray bottles of aerosolized smallpox

Kit: Pot that doubles as hat (with strap, handle and visor!), cap and piping to allow conversion for use as a still. Compass-watch, small enough to swallow if required, as well as multiple backups. An altimeter on that watch would probably be nice. Modern pack, Several bladders for carrying water, modern waterproof, insulated blanket, cute fuzzy stuffed animal, preferably built to last, oh and a poncho.

Clothes: 2x durable pants, warm, long sleeved shirts, moccasins

Consumables: Two durable bottles of grain alcohol. One month worth of food. One week worth of water. Several cigarette lighters. Several pounds of seeds (no idea what, I'd have to ask a farmer before I left)

Other equipment: a laminated copy of the ranger handbook with important phrases in as many major native languages, information about assorted useful plants, and as much basic chemistry calculus and physics as I can fit in the margins.

Assumptions:

Everything I pack in will be lost, broken, stolen, consumed, or bartered by the time I get to the other end--probably much sooner, therefore, I should start early doing what I will have to do late. Moving in with the natives, learning their ways, moving west with them, and staying put in their encampment during dangerous weather.

I will not encounter many Westerners (Savannah didn't exist in 1700), but will encounter many natives. I must exploit their knowledge of the area, survival skills, and food stores whenever possible. The locals are likely to have better area knowledge, better bushcraft, and better information about possible routes than anything available in the present day, therefore, I will learn from them whenever possible. The French I find will not be a problem, as my French is marginal, and I have a map of the country on my back which I am willing to share.

Strategy:
This can be summed up as 'go native early and stay that way'. Whether or not it's possible to pull it off on foot without 'going native' is up for debate, but I certainly wouldn't try

The pot and machete are obviously awesome--even Johnny Appleseed had a pot-hat.

I imagine that gun, ammo, and cleaning kit will not be adequate for the entire trek, and that anyone who tries it would eventually be using improvised weapons anyway, so no gun for me. I'm surrendering to the inevitable and using a bow from the start, instead of waiting to run out of ammo before trying to learn to bow or spear hunt. My clothes will wear out anyway, so I had better get used to wearing moccasins and native garb sooner rather than later as well. The blanket is a shelter, a sleeping bag, a sail and generally too useful to not have.

Travel will be slow and steady, involving the (hopefully) willing assistance of the locals.

The C4 is for making loud scary noises to drive off animals, put on a show of force for natives, and clear rubble when necessary. The stuffed animal is for company, and for gaining the trust of the kids. The still and grain alcohol are for the natives--they're missing an enzyme after all. The initial food and water should last long enough for me to link up with (friendly) locals in Georgia, study their ways, and prepare a route north, then west along the Oregon trail, and south to San Francisco.

The smallpox is for returning unopened.

Probability of success: Low to moderate

Probability of successfully settling in with a tribe in a nice section of pristine, clean, pre-colonial American wilderness and starting up a family after missing my ride? Not terrible.

The Reaper

05-19-2008, 06:44

I am sorry, but the thought of you running around with a plush stuffed animal, a tattooed face and a pot on your head, trying to look over your shoulder at the map on your ass, while tossing C4 firecrackers, spraying bio weapons, and swallowing your wristwatch, over a ten year period leaves me speechless.

Did you think this was a zombie hunt?

I need to compose myself before commenting further.

TR

Peregrino

05-19-2008, 07:01

SF_BHT

05-19-2008, 09:29

DISTORTED

You picked a perfect name for your self. Lack of field experience s showing....:munchin

Pete

05-19-2008, 09:34

I'm sorry but I'll have to include 4 bricks.

http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?products_id=438

Pack better than coffee and I'll need a good fix every few days. Can reuse them until they produce only clear water.

Kyobanim

05-19-2008, 09:39

I am sorry, but the thought of you running around with a plush stuffed animal, a tattooed face and a pot on your head, trying to look over your shoulder at the map on your ass, while tossing C4 firecrackers, spraying bio weapons, and swallowing your wristwatch, over a ten year period leaves me speechless.

TR, you do have a way with words!

I can't stop laughing.:lifter

Sdiver

05-19-2008, 09:42

Hehe....hehehehe....Hahahahaha.....Bwahahahahahaha haha.....

Tattoo of the map of the continental US with rivers, mountains, forests, deserts etc marked clearly with as much detail as possible on my back. Tattoos of specific regions such as the Ohio valley, the Oregon trail route through the rockies, definitely California, Georgia, and other important areas along the route, determined by careful evaluation of maps and measurements of available space on my body put everywhere space is available.

So instead of "Dude, where's my car", we now have "Distorted, where am I gong?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67EvAeU1mxY&feature=related

Hehehehehehe

Distorted

05-19-2008, 11:55

Whoopsie, forgot my ipod!

The Reaper

05-19-2008, 11:59

Whoopsie, forgot my ipod!

Steam powered?:D

TR

Pete

05-19-2008, 12:47

All kidding aside, wonder why Distorted needs a tatooed map of the Ohio River Valley when he plans on staying south of Tennessee:D

TR gave a very realistic problem at the begining of this thread. 100 lbs and cross the US solo. What would you take?

Granted the Lewis & Clark party dropped some items and picked some more up along the way. At 33 people in the regular party they were taking just under 125 lbs of supplies per man. Around 5 1/2 pounds of black powder per man in lead cans but only one rifle per 3 men.

They took a good number of Hard Cover Books as well.

Pete S

05-19-2008, 13:55

ksgbobo

05-19-2008, 14:32

I am 25 years old, I have no military field training experience, but I was a Cub Scout, Webelos and Boy Scout - never made Eagle though. Been on a number of hikes and campouts in the South - anywhere from a weekend to two weeks at a time. I lived in North East Mexico for two years as a missionary and walked or biked anywhere from 10-15 miles a day.

Can this be accomplished successfully?

I believe it can, so yes.

Do you accept the challenge?

Yes.

Where do you start?

I would start at either St. Augustine, Florida or Savannah Georgia, probably St. Augustine.

What route do you take?

St. Augustine to Atlanta to Nauvoo IL or St. Louis MO, from there make my way to Seattle WA.
I would start in the spring and make my way to Nauvoo or St. Louis by Christmas, and stay there until April, then make my way to the Northwest.

Where do you plan to finish?

Seattle Washington, or somewhere in the Northwest.

How long do you think it will take you?

Anywhere from 18 to 24 months, closer to 24 months.

What is in your field gear?

A good durable, reliable pack. Hygiene kit, soap, toothpaste, shaving gel, razors, toothbrushes, deodorant (maybe), Gold Bond powder, finger nail clippers, rubbing alcohol. First Aid kit (bandages, pain killers as in Motrin and Tylenol, rubbing alcohol, antiseptic, and whatever else that is useful in a first aid kit). MREs for emergencies only. Camelbak and a couple water containers. Good boots (I used the same pair of shoes for the whole time I was in Mexico...Doc Martins). Beeswax for the boots. Two rolls of duct tape, 550 cord, climbing rope with minimal climbing gear. Two pair of everything for clothes, except socks, bring multiple pair of socks. A shemagh, theres lots you can do with that. Salt, pepper and other spices for myself and for trade. Nails and pins for my use and trade. Something to wrap your ankles and calfs in to protect you from snake bites and such. I would bring a two man lightweight tent, a mummy bag, wool blanket, and some sort of pad to sleep on. A good kinectic watch. And other stuff that I cant think of right now.

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?

Clothing would be critical for me, and I would use the spices and whatever would be useful.

What are your priorities?

My health, safety and completing the trek.

How will you carry it?

Some sort of pack, would have to do research to find the best one I am looking for.

What firearms will you take?

This is a tough one to decide on. I would bring my trusty bolt action Springfield 30-06 for hunting, XD45 for two legged critter and protection from them scary animals out in the wild. I was thinking of bringing a .22 rifle instead with lots of ammo and shoot small game along my way. No point in shooting deer, buffalo and such if you are not planning on staying there very long. Have the small rifle to hunt and the big handgun for protection.
Was also thinking of bringing a compound bow with 10-20 arrows. You could reuse the arrows until they broke.

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?

30-06, I would bring 300 rounds, XD45 100-150 rounds.
If I were to bring the .22 rifle 750-1000 rounds. Bow, I would bring 10-20 arrows. Some sort of cleaning kit, just in case.

What edged tools do you take?

My small Gerber knife, a Leatherman, a good 7" knife and another one to do pretty much anything. A hacthet, with a hammer on one side, a saw and an e-tool.

What navigational aids do you take?

A couple compasses, maps

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?

50%

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?

Toughen up my feet, do all the studying I can of the route I will be taking, and learn how to make a fire without lighters or anything like that.

BryanK

06-05-2008, 12:49

Originally posted by TR: Maps, as mentioned before, are going to be very heavy. You are going to need at least 185 sheets, if you can keep your course straight as an arrow within the 15 mile or so N-S height of the map. That is enough to paper the roof of a small house. If you want to allow for a little drifting, bypassing, or exploring, you will need to double or triple that number.

I have been unable to compile all the individual weights thus far without a quality scale, but as far as the maps go, I had the idea of scaling down the 1:24,000 maps. One sheet that can be rolled up to weigh about 2 lbs. Miniaturize the maps/protractor to where they need to be read by a magnifying glass (which would be included in the fire starting equipment).

The Reaper

06-10-2008, 07:46

Pete

06-10-2008, 08:05

Other than the skinny 18D packed on the top of the rucksack?:D

OK - a well trained 18D. Prep time spent in a crash course on Native Medicine and sign language.

A "Medicine Man" would add to the trip in many ways.

Same route and time, up the Potomac, over to the Ohio, down the Mississippi, up the Arkansas/Canadian into Mission Country. Stay along that line to the LA area.

Sdiver

06-10-2008, 08:13

I would want someone who knows geography and the difference between North and South, that takes AngelsSix out of the picture. :D

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18534

The plan has been fragged.

You may take another person back with you, if you are willing to split the money with them 50-50.

1) Do you take someone else with you?

2) What characteristics or skills would you look for?

3) How would this affect your plan, and how would you modify it?

4) Would you keep the same route, timeline, start and end points, and general movement plan?

TR

1) Yes.

2) Someone with somewhat of the same personal traits as I have, (ie. sense of humor, sense of adventure, ability to handle/carry a 20' machete :D). We'd be together for along time, so of course we'd have to get along.

3) I would like to stay with the original plan.

4) I still like the Southern route, but of course I'd get input from my traveling companion, and decide which would be the best route. With a second person of course, they'd be packing supplies as well.

PSM

06-10-2008, 21:12

If I had to take a partner, I suppose I’d take Distorted since he’s got the map. :D

Tattoo of the map of the continental US with rivers, mountains, forests, deserts etc marked clearly with as much detail as possible on my back. Tattoos of specific regions such as the Ohio valley, the Oregon trail route through the rockies, definitely California, Georgia, and other important areas along the route, determined by careful evaluation of maps and measurements of available space on my body put everywhere space is available.

Otherwise, I’d go alone, if I went at all. The money just doesn’t entice me enough. The adventure itself might. The idea of being able to witness the early development of the nation would be exciting…in the planning stages. In fact, you’d only see what’s happening within a few hundred yards of your position as you moved across the country.

Having a companion would increase the number of bones that could break, possible allergies, noise, illnesses, mishaps, and induce the possibility of conflict.

I can see SF guys choosing a former teammate as a partner because of pre-established trust. Not being SF, I have no such companion.

Pat

AngelsSix

06-20-2008, 22:31

Posted by SDiver:
I would want someone who knows geography and the difference between North and South, that takes AngelsSix out of the picture.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ad.php?t=18534

Ah, you meanie, fragging me in a thread I almost missed!! For shame!!:D

You see, we Northerners get a little confused when we move down South........:munchin

triQshot

06-21-2008, 10:32

Can this be accomplished successfully?

Yes, it can accomplished by staying on the river and only stopping to hunt, eat, and sleep. With a little exploring along the river banks. With a 30 day limit, your going to have to use the "interstate" (rivers) to your advantage and stay on course for your target date to meet with the time machine.

Do you accept the challenge?

Yes.

Where do you start?

Ohio River

What route do you take?

I would try to keep to the same path, but I might wonder around some.

Where do you plan to finish?

What is now, Seatle Washington.

How long do you think it will take you?

I would hope to be done by the 29th day.

What is in your field gear?

Rope, thermal gear, first aide gear, "snake oil", canteen(s), gloves.

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?

Critical Items that I would take from the present to the past.
a) night vision (cheap Mono's)
b) batteries
c) compass/gps finder
d) zippo
e) zippo fluid
f) wet stone
g) topo map
h) flashlight

Items from that period that would work for me.
a) canoe

What are your priorities?

Take pictures of the route, animals, people (if contact made), plot my course on the river and document my travels for future parties.

How will you carry it?

Majority of what I carry will be left in the canoe, so that way I can stay mobile on the land. My primary source of travel would be done on the water. When I left the water it would be to take pictures and document wildlife. The lighter the gear the faster I can move on land.

What firearms will you take?

a) 30-30 Marlin
I) for eating purpose (Deer)
II) no need for a semi or auto because the lever action will be the fastest shooting weapon in the time. Easy to repair a lever action than a semi or auto, in this era.
III) great "brush" gun and you can get distance shots off if needed, I would not advise shooting at anything over 100yrds. If you cannot kill it with one shot, dont shoot.

b) .22(long) revolver
I) small game (rabbits, birds, snakes...etc)
II) better than throwing a rock

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?

a) 250 rounds for my 30-30
b) 500 rounds for my .22 long pistol
c) 2 bottles of lighter fluid
d) a pack of extra strikers for my zippo
e) 2 packs of small fishing hooks
f) a roll of 6lb tess fishing line
g) 4 packs of batteries

What edged tools do you take?

a) Leatherman
b) Puma Knife (fixed blade for skinning game)
c) Puma Bantam Knife (doing surgery in field)
d) Light weight Hatchet for firewood and cutting through bone

What navigational aids do you take?

a) compass
b) gps locater

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?

Very good.

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?

Take as many pictures of the land as possible, collect date (soil samples, water samples). Document as much about the trip as possible.

I know I do not have any field time, I just wanted to try my luck with it. With that said, have your way with it...pros/cons...:munchin

PSM

06-21-2008, 10:39

b) gps locater

Really?

Pat

triQshot

06-21-2008, 10:51

Really?

Pat

Doh....I mean a GPS, lol not a locator....well the Locator would be great, if I died, someone in the future would be able to locate me. :D

PSM

06-21-2008, 10:53

Doh....I mean a GPS,...:D

In that case, I’d recommend taking a boar hog along for fresh milk. :D

Pat

MVS2

06-21-2008, 11:00

Just out of my own curiosity, what is the longest stretch of time that any here have been on their own doing this type of thing. I'm interested in whether it would be overly risky to do an expedition like this without at least one other explorer with you.

The Reaper

06-21-2008, 11:09

Distorted

06-27-2008, 15:47

The plan has been fragged.

You may take another person back with you, if you are willing to split the money with them 50-50.

Do you take someone else with you?

What characteristics or skills would you look for?

How would this affect your plan, and how would you modify it?

Would you keep the same route, timeline, start and end points, and general movement plan?:munchin

TR

I would place this (safe for work, but contains music) ad http://timetraveler.ytmnd.com/ in the Fayetteville Observer classifieds and screen everyone who actually responds, looking first for compatibility, and second for experience. Since any good relationship requires compromise, and is based on mutual trust and understanding, everything would be up for debate and possible changes! I have no idea what we would cook up, but it would be rigorous.

That picture is approximately accurate by the way.

Edit: and yes, I would put the ad out before getting the tattoos.

Diablo Blanco

06-30-2008, 01:32

In that case, I’d recommend taking a boar hog along for fresh milk. :D

Pat

might as well bring some talking greeting cards for the natives! Maybe some with a Halloween theme...

Diablo Blanco

06-30-2008, 02:27

Thank you TR for this great mission. Really got me thinking about what I have in my kit today.

My Response:

Field Time:
11 years True Blue Infantry multiple deployments, multiple theaters

You are in the prime of your life:
Why Thank You.

Can this be accomplished successfully?

Without a doubt, yes.

Do you accept the challenge?
Without hesitation

Where do you start?
Charleston, South Carolina.

What route do you take?
Head west through Plano, TX, Flagstaff and Kingman, AZ on up to Camp SLO, CA

Where do you plan to finish?
Camp SLO, CA at the very top of that tall pointy hill with all the military grade poison oak.

How long do you think it will take you?
6 months, but to remove Murphy’s Law from the equation I will say 1 year.

What is in your field gear?

Shelter
Poncho 1lb 8 oz
111” Aluminum Poles 2x 8 oz
10” 550 cord per grommet (8 grommets) .45 oz
4 bungees 8 oz
Kifaru Woobie w/zipper mod 1 lb 6 oz
MPI Space Hooded Blanket/Poncho (casualty blanket) 10 oz
Sierra Designs Rain Suit: Parka (12 oz) Pants (7 oz) 1 lb 3 oz
IMPS-Net w/ D rings 1 lb
McNett MicroNet Towel X-Large (aka:light blanket, shade) 8.25 oz
Mosquito Net
OPTIONAL Wet Weather Boots 2 lbs
OPTIONAL Therm-a-Rest Z-Lite Short pad 11 oz
OPTIONAL Therm-a-Rest compressible Pillow (medium) 9 oz

Clothing
2 pair pants (1 worn)
2 Shirts long-sleeve
3 T-shirts
4 pairs of underwear
8 pairs of socks
1 set black silks (ninja jammies)
Boonie
Mosquito net for boonie
1 belt
1 pair Wileys with 2 extra sets each of clear and polarized lenses
1 pair new boots (I’ll break ‘em in on the road)
2 pairs new insoles
1 pair of new soles
1 polar fleece cap
Fleece jacket
1 set lightweight black gloves (REI)
1 set leather gloves
1 set cold weather gloves\
Snowboarder’s gaiter
OPTIONAL Jacket

Fire
3 magnesium fire starters 6 oz
3 bics w/plungers zip tied (Thanks for the idea!) 3 oz
Littlbug Junior www.littlbug.com 9.5 oz
Fire Piston (plexiglass) 4 oz

Water
SteriPEN Adventurer Water Purifier w/Solar Charging Case 10.6 oz
Purification Tablets
Large Sponge 8 oz

Food
Cooking Tools
REI Ti Ware Nonstick Titanium Pot 4 Liter w/lid 15.9 oz
Snow Peak Mini Solo Cookset (cup, sm. Pot w/lid) 5.5 oz
Light My Fire Spork XM .56 oz
Light My Fire Serving Spork 1.1 oz
GSI Compact Scraper .4 oz
Flatworld Orikaso Big Bowl 1.2 oz
1 sheet sponge (for cleaning up) 1 oz
Four bottles of ‘Survival Tabs’ in case of self induced famine 3 lbs 3.84 oz

Health and Hygiene
Multi Vitamins 2 bottles (stuffed with cotton to reduce noise) 8 oz
Adventure Medical Kits –Expedition 4 lbs
1 sheet sponge (for wiping my ass) 1 oz
1 Large Botttle of Dr Bronner’s Soap 2 lbs

Tools
Leatherman Ukiah 7.2 oz
Glock Field Spade 1 lb 7.6 oz
2 Redi Edge Tactical Sharpeners 2 oz
OPTIONAL Cold Steel Kukri Machete 1 lb
OPTIONAL Ultimate Survival Technologies SaberCut Saw 6 oz

Lights
3 betalights (1 attached to watch band w/velcro cover, 1 attached to inside of belt excess, 1 on retractable cord clip)
1 Surefire w/ 2 spare bulbs and 8 spare batteries
Petzl Tactikka XP Adapt – w/ 4 additional rechargeable AAA’s
2 IR Strobe caps for 9v’s w/ two rechargeable 9 volts
Technology

Optics
PVS-14 NVG
with 3x detachable lens and head mount
4 additional rechargeable batteries (AA’s)
Binos

PDA

Digital Camera, Digital Recorder, PDA would all be combined into newest Windows Mobile Phone (Device) available today. Why a phone? When I reach my time machine and come back I want to make sure I came to the right time. If Time Machine drops me off in incorrect location I can call for pickup. Device will have Solar/LCD hybrid screen (yes they exist), 5MP digital camera capable of HD video recording.
High Capacity memory cards will be included in the kit. Enough memory to record 1 hr of HD video + 2 hrs of audio + 200 5MP images + text per day (at 18 months). There will be days without need for any recording so days that more recording will be averaged out.
Device would have biometrics registered to all my digits to prevent phracking up the Time line if falling into the wrong hands. It would also have fail safe security software that will auto format device after 30 days without being accessed by me.
Additionally, Topo maps at every level of detail for entire US, Northern Mexico and Southern Canada will be included. Maps will be marked with known missions, towns, settlements, camps, forts, tribal areas, political areas, areas of conflict, bodies of water and ‘unexplored’ territory that existed then.
Language dictionaries, translators, pronunciation guides for each language existent across North America at the time.
Various eBooks including the different military Survival Guides, Tom Brown’s guides (lots of ground-up information and how-to’s invaluable for extended stays), medical guides, edible and medicinal plants guide, complete Wikipedia and WikiBooks download to supplement. Also valuable in case Time Machine malfunctions and takes me to the wrong time. Also 3,000 ebooks of greatest works (in case I suffer more than one major setback that causes me to miss pickup.
Most valuable information is complete and comprehensive plans for the time machine. If I arrive at pickup on time and Time Machine is damaged I will be able to repair it. If I miss pickup time then I could build a new one and return, a bit older obviously but I wouldn’t miss out on my $10 million.
Two extra PDA batteries.
2 pair of high quality wired headphones (not for listening to music continuously but for language mostly).
Total weight less than 2lbs

Perimeter alarm – I love this thing and have had the same one for years. It’s twice the size of a pack of cigarettes. There is probably a smaller version available today but this thing has 3 modes and a keypad. Main mode is a trip wire (for my base camp and sleep times), 2nd mode is motion alarm (for stowing with gear when away from it). 3rd mode is a doorbell chime that acts on motion (great if staying in a mission or even for detecting game). Works on AA’s
Solar Panel Roll Charger for batteries and Device

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?
Sextant
Watch with accurate GMT of the exact time I go back in time. Actually the watch should also have an altimeter, barometer, thermometer etc for data collection
The Super PDA is critical for recording data

What are your priorities? (in order of priority)
Not screw up the timeline!
Stay alive
Record Data
Keep moving
Reach objective within time frame

How will you carry it?
In a pack of my own design or a Kifaru

What firearms will you take?
Buttstock Packable .22 Survival rifle w/
Additional pistol length short barrel
Additional pistol grip.
This interchangeability would be invaluable between hunting small game (MAIN source of meat) and up close encounters with time-locals that have a friendly overtones but everything has hostile potential.

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?

Simple cleaning kit
752 rnds

What edged tools do you take?
See ‘Tools’ in the gear list

What navigational aids do you take?
In addition to Sextant and watch
Compasses:
1 Lensatic
Silva Ranger
2 Protractors
Largest Scale topo maps of planned route. I don’t need 1:25,000 for every damn grid zone that would be WAY too much paper.

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?
Odds of failure are 2.5 on a scale of 1 to 10

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?

Crash Course in French, Spanish and Chickasaw (Chickasaw were greatly feared during that time in the Mississippi Basin. That is the area of slowest movement and least friendlies.)
Archery and Bow Making practice
Combatives/Aikido brush up. Both would seem like magic during that time. Gotta be careful with that one.
Research weather and conflicts that occurred during the period. Research major players
Immediate inoculations against everything
Order all the gear I don’t have on hand!

Thoughts?

Disease was a major cause of death during that period. I may be immune/innoculated to many of those diseases but that does not mean I am not a carrier. I would be forced to limit human interaction. Especially if I was sick myself. Consequences are deaths of many people that would have a butterfly effect.
Signal: The mission is to collect and record data. If I die somewhere along the way or miss my pickup then the mission is a complete failure. Predetermined cache locations “the ultimate cache” would be the order of the day. This would ensure partial mission success in the event of my death or inability to make pickup time/loc.
I’m not going to bring an arsenal above the survival rifle. I don’t need to be shooting people or large animals and seriously messing up the time line. Plants will be my main source of food and fish and small animals only when in plenty.

In Response to the Frago
I would not opt to take anyone with me. Time Travel missions should always be done alone.

MVS2

06-30-2008, 16:20

The Reaper

06-30-2008, 18:17

I think an M1 Carbine would be a handy weapon for this mission - it has the .30 cal ammo and a super light weight with the folding butt stock. With between eight and eleven 40-round magazines, it wouldn't take up much space either.

Weight is about 5.2 lb (according to Wikipedia.com)

An anemic, inaccurate round, best limited to small game under 100 yards combined with notoriously unreliable mags.

And the folding stock will keep you from using it as a boat paddle.

What a great combo for adventure.:rolleyes:

TR

Kyobanim

06-30-2008, 19:20

What are your priorities? (in order of priority)
Not screw up the timeline!

I think this is the first time I've seen this. Good one.

But . . .

By virtue of being there you will most likely screw up the timeline. The bacteria in your bowels is based on the 21st century environment. There's been a lot of environmental changes in the last 300 years in relationship to your digestive tract, not to mention the skin bugs and stuff like that.

There's no telling what havoc that would wreak on the environment and hence, the timeline.

Diablo Blanco

07-01-2008, 02:21

I think this is the first time I've seen this. Good one.

But . . .

By virtue of being there you will most likely screw up the timeline. The bacteria in your bowels is based on the 21st century environment. There's been a lot of environmental changes in the last 300 years in relationship to your digestive tract, not to mention the skin bugs and stuff like that.

There's no telling what havoc that would wreak on the environment and hence, the timeline.

Very True, however there is a theory that time is much like a stretched rubber band. Pluck it and the vibrations even out over time. My intent would be to minimize the long term ripples. In the spirit of your post is one reason I didn't put antibiotics on my list of things to bring.

I suppose I will have to dig DEEP cat holes :)

MVS2

07-01-2008, 13:20

An anemic, inaccurate round, best limited to small game under 100 yards combined with notoriously unreliable mags.

And the folding stock will keep you from using it as a boat paddle.

What a great combo for adventure.:rolleyes:

TR

I don't like to canoe.

The inaccuracy I'd take the chance on that with the larger clip...that's adventure!

Add three more mags.

The Reaper

07-01-2008, 13:31

Absolutely.

300 years in the past, two thousand miles from civilization, spraying and praying.

Should be interesting.:munchin

TR

MVS2

07-01-2008, 13:48

The Reaper

07-01-2008, 14:00

Yep.

2000 miles from civilization means I'd likely be at my West Coast destination. I'd like to stake land in S. California and get a head start on oil prospecting - only to travel 300 years ahead and find the natives I hired to work the land have taken over my stake and now run U.S. oil production.

Rubber band *snap*

If you run out of ammo or luck a few hundred miles from the PZ, you are not much better off than running out in Missouri. No one is waiting there to come rescue you.

You never explained your plan, but I would expect that since there is very limited oil exploration in California, much less actual extraction, you would be better served by staking out claims to property around Sutter's Mill, and then plowing that money into oceanfront property, particularly in SoCal.

You might want to borrow an M-1 Carbine, a 40 round mag, and go try hunting deer, or better yet, brown bear with it. Let us know your impressions after testing it out.

TR

MVS2

07-01-2008, 14:11

MVS2

07-01-2008, 14:17

You might want to borrow an M-1 Carbine, a 40 round mag, and go try hunting deer, or better yet, brown bear with it. Let us know your impressions after testing it out.

TR

I will keep you posted.

Diablo Blanco

07-01-2008, 16:47

Absolutely.

300 years in the past, two thousand miles from civilization, spraying and praying.

Should be interesting.:munchin

TR

ROFL! In order to pack the ammo he's talking about using he might as well just pack a few ammo cans into his cargo pockets.

Diablo Blanco

07-01-2008, 16:49

That's also a good plan, but who's going to watch that property for 300 years without taking a bite out of it? The honor system seems like a bad choice to go on for long term. I'd have to pack some claymores or invisible dog fence (solar powered, of course) and pass bracelets out as gifts - that may work for the first 100 years.

Maybe you could start a religion that declares it holy property and prophesize that you will be back to claim it.

Time Traveling Prophets...

MVS2

07-01-2008, 18:17

Maybe you could start a religion that declares it holy property and prophesize that you will be back to claim it.

Time Traveling Prophets...

given the historical fates of figures who have done this, I'd pass and just bury the gold deep in a nearby current day park reserve along the American River.

Chris Cram

07-02-2008, 11:29

- 1692 Witch hunt in Salem, Massachusetts. 19 women burned at the stake.
Something to consider when popping in from the future; you might not want to be seen appearing from the ‘magic outhouse’... and unless you are dressed appropriately, you might not want to be seen at all. These people don’t seem to have that ‘PC’ tolerance thing working…

A Few Northern Paths: Note the years.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/JedediahSmithEnglishVersion.png

Land Issues: Is Intel ever as good as you would like it to be? Change happens...
http://www.davidrumsey.com/maps4587.html

With respect to terrain, there is predictable behavior. Examine "surficial geology".
http://www.geology.enr.state.nc.us/Landslide_Info/Landslides_example_historical_events.htm
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-381/of03-381.pdf

PSM

07-07-2008, 17:58

While thinking about what would make me accept this challenge, besides the adventure itself, it dawned on me that I could visit my great-great-etc grandparents. I’m descended from John Howland, one of the Mayflower Compact signers. His grandson and also my great-grandfather, John Chipman, would have been 31 in 1700. His wife, Mary (Skiff) Chipman would have been 29.

Being able to photograph, and perhaps record, them would be invaluable for the family and historians. I’m not sure actual contact could be made since I don’t know how the dialect differences would affect communication. Although I think arriving at a fishing port would be an advantage in that regard since sailors from far reaches of the world would not be unusual there.

Pat

MVS2

07-12-2008, 19:43

If you run out of ammo or luck a few hundred miles from the PZ, you are not much better off than running out in Missouri. No one is waiting there to come rescue you.

You never explained your plan, but I would expect that since there is very limited oil exploration in California, much less actual extraction, you would be better served by staking out claims to property around Sutter's Mill, and then plowing that money into oceanfront property, particularly in SoCal.

You might want to borrow an M-1 Carbine, a 40 round mag, and go try hunting deer, or better yet, brown bear with it. Let us know your impressions after testing it out.

TR

No M-1 Carbines to borrow in my area - I tried an AK-47 and an M-4 at a local range...I'll take the M4.

The AK was heavy compared to the M-4, its rounds were inconsistent at 75 feet, and the recoil was pretty comparable to a 12 gauge.

The M-4 jammed up a half dozen times in ninety rounds. I doubt it had been cleaned in a while.

thanks for the suggestion.

The Reaper

07-15-2008, 08:15

New FRAGO.

You may bring a dog on your journey, if you wish.

Do you choose to bring one?

If you could only have one or the other, would you choose to bring a dog, rather than a human companion?

What breed do you select? Why?

What gender? Why?

What preparation do you make for the animal?

What additional supplies do you bring?

What role do you envision for your dog, if you bring one?

TR

Team Sergeant

07-15-2008, 09:04

No M-1 Carbines to borrow in my area - I tried an AK-47 and an M-4 at a local range...I'll take the M4.

The AK was heavy compared to the M-4, its rounds were inconsistent at 75 feet, and the recoil was pretty comparable to a 12 gauge.

The M-4 jammed up a half dozen times in ninety rounds. I doubt it had been cleaned in a while.

thanks for the suggestion.

I've never witnessed an M4 jamming "half dozen times in ninety rounds", not without something being broken or put together wrong. But then again I've only watched about a million or so M4 rounds go down range.

MVS2, spare us your weapons commentary.

Team Sergeant

BryanK

07-15-2008, 10:29

Originally posted by TR:
New FRAGO.

You may bring a dog on your journey, if you wish.

Do you choose to bring one? Yes

If you could only have one or the other, would you choose to bring a dog, rather than a human companion? I’d rather bring a dog.

What breed do you select? Why? A German Shorthair Pointer. I’d bring her along so that I have companionship without opinion, and an early warning system. Don’t have to worry about a dog shooting you if foodstuffs run low also. If times got too terrible, I’d eat the dog.

What gender? Why? A female. Less rambunctious.

What preparation do you make for the animal? Constant exercise and hunting practice (upland/forest game). Send the puppy to a renowned dog training facility. I will accompany her for training too as soon as I complete the survival courses.

What additional supplies do you bring? An extra camelback that she can wear, a blanket, and just a few treats until we get our first meal. A few cans of dog food as well.

What role do you envision for your dog, if you bring one? Companion and hunting partner. German shorthairs are very good bird/chase dogs.

xollie316

07-17-2008, 15:08

deleted.

PSM

12-02-2008, 11:46

Since Bill Harsey opened the door with the “Tofu Chili” thread in “The Gourmet Guerrilla” forum, I’ll offer this here:

Relying on local edible plants while crossing the continent could be problematic, so I would take a mix of beans and seeds for sprouting en route. At least until I learn to identify plants that I can reliably recognize and find in the South and Southwest. (Dang, there was no Kudzu in the 1700s. :D)

In our sailing days we used sprouts to fill out the Vitameatavegamin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlRRQ81ZRJs) pyramid. I’ve learned that some through-hiking backpackers use loose weave, moisture retaining, bags, attached to their packs, for sprouting.

I would also take, or acquire, a couple of laying hens. My guess is that they would not work out in the long run and would probably be consumed early on, but it’s one of those things that can’t be known in advance. Who knows, they might prove to be a good early-warning system.

Bon appetit.

Pat

The Reaper

12-02-2008, 12:08

Not exactly sure how you carry a couple of laying hens while traveling cross-country on foot, and expect eggs, but it presents an interesting concept.

Let's examine another potential alternative.

You can buy and use a horse, or other beast of burden, to ride or as a pack animal.

What animal do you choose?

Is it for riding, or for packing?

What do you add to your basic load out?

Do you use an external carriage system, like a cart, wagon, travois, etc.?

Consider that animals require care, watering, tack, probably supplemental food, and some knowledge to ride and/or pack. You will also probably have to cross terrain that the animal cannot.

Thoughts?

TR

PSM

12-02-2008, 12:35

Not exactly sure how you carry a couple of laying hens while traveling cross-country on foot, and expect eggs, but it presents an interesting concept.

TR

TR,

I'm still working on this one. The settlers carried their hens in small cages hung alone the sides of the wagons. They got bounced around quite a bit and still produced. It's probably not worth the effort over the long haul but, other than perhaps attracting unwanted attention, trying it early on wouldn't threaten the mission.

Are beasts of burden permitted now? Or are you just challenging us to consider the logistics of their use?

Pat

Blitzzz (RIP)

12-02-2008, 13:12

the successful completion of your journey, you will receive ten million dollars.

Can this be accomplished successfully?: Yes

Do you accept the challenge? Yes

Where do you start? Roanoke Va.

What route do you take? ; West along what will some day be I-40

Where do you plan to finish? : Peugent sound.

How long do you think it will take you? : 3 years

What is in your field gear? 1 roll of 550 cord, 1 light 10x 12 nylon tarp, 2 Pancho liners, 1 leatherman, 2 compasses, fire starter, 1 dozen 1inch Dia candles, 1 hatchet/with hammer back head.a good felt hat, thinselite gloves, Camel back , 2 2quart canteens, 2 canteen cups, Binoculars. (PVS 5s) if possible, 6 snap links.

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?
Modern Items: Compasses, 550 cord, camel back, Pancho liners, Period sstuff could ruck made of chamiss and light weight LBE leather, Hat, clothes, Mocachins,

What are your priorities? Stealth, food, water, caution not to get injured.

How will you carry it? on my back like always

What firearms will you take? : 1 Highstandard silenced 22.

How much ammo, accessories, etc.? lanyard, 500 rds of ammo. shoulder hoster.

What edged tools do you take? 1- 9 inch fixed blade ( bowie fashoned), 1- 3.5 or 4 in fixed blade, ( prieviosly mentioned Leatherman and Hatchet.

What navigational aids do you take? : As above. Compasses

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey? 99+%

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave? My very own Blitz work out, start shrinking my diet to shrink my stomach. Toughen my feet and break in a good pair of Danners.

Let’s think this one through as stated first, we can do branches and sequels later.

As to the sequel stuff: I'd take a mule as long as HE could follow.
That's all for now I quess. Blitzz See ya'll on the trail

Sigaba

12-02-2008, 13:27

After reading the entire thread, I concluded that I may have a small piece of information that may be helpful to this exercise.

For those of you planning on using part of your thirty days' prep time talking to academics, I would recommend to not spend too much time talking to historians. They could give you profound insights into the competition among European powers in North America and their interactions with the Native American tribes but I don't know if this "big picture" information would help.

I believe that a more useful source of academic knowledge would be advanced graduate students in cultural anthropology who have recently completed their fieldwork and were working on their doctoral dissertations. These individuals would know the cutting edge of the theories of their craft and have field experience to know what might work. (Ideally, you'd talk to grad students who studied tribes similar to those you might encounter.)

A caveat. Cultural anthropologists are still coming to grips with the fact that their discipline has been (and may continue to be) both a training ground and cover for various intelligence agencies <link> (http://www.amazon.com/Anthropological-Intelligence-Deployment-American-Anthropology/dp/0822342375/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228245030&sr=8-1). So they may have ethical issues that compel them to ask "Why do you want to know?"

Even if one were to strike gold by finding a communicative anthropologist (read: intelligible to a non specialist), the time spent interacting with this individual should be limited. The literature in educational cognitive psychology dealing with the acquisition of new skills indicates that it takes two to two and a half years to become conversant enough with a domain of knowledge that it can be used automatically (without conscious effort).

So while a cultural anthropologist could tell you about reciprocity and exchange, deep play, kinship, and food behavior, will you be able to recall and use that information competently in the moment you need it in the field?

Blitzzz (RIP)

12-02-2008, 13:28

Heeyyy! Good luck with that M-1 carbine.hunting Brown bear. Might be more adventurous with a 12 fixed blade or sticking the barrel of the M-1 in your mouth and ending it before the Bear does. just sorta kidding, Blitzzz

Blitzzz (RIP)

12-02-2008, 13:46

Sigaba. Great education obviously. Hell it would take me thirty days to read your post. Getting in great shape, getting vaccinated, getting laid would all seem to be more advantageous than listening to some extraordinarily well educated fellow about some natives that you are going to avoid as possible. I feel that a well trained and experienced SF soldier is quit able to "go Native" to thrive a while.
Just another .02¢ . Love your posts Blitz

The Reaper

12-02-2008, 14:05

Sigaba:

I think that Brother Blitzz may be overstating the case slightly, but I would submit to you that many years of working with indig in various cultures makes SF soldiers pretty unique in their cross-cultural skills. By and large, we are "people people".

The experiences of 7th and 10th SFGs in combat outside of their respective theaters demonstrates that.

To me, I would consider consulting a native anthropologist (or ethnographer), briefly for an overview, and loading up some texts on the matter to my portable data device. My personal opinion is that the critical things to take care of during mission prep are conditioning, particularly feet, topographical studies (to include route planning), primitive survival skills, celestial navigation, med checks and innoculations, survival botany (edible plants), trapping and fishing skills, emergency medical training, relevant languages, period history, area and tribal studies, etc., etc. Thinking back on my overseas experience in 3rd World areas, it occurs to me that a very small dental set and a few hours of refresher study on extractions might be an excellent investment.

Yes, PSM, I thought I said that we can now purchase pack animals. A mule might be a good choice. Provided that he can swim, forage off the countryside, and possibly climb mountains and wear snowshoes.:D

And IMHO, chickens are going to be far more trouble and attract more predators than I would want to deal with, even if they were easily portable. Yes, I have raised chickens and tended them on a farm before. I might purchase a couple from time to time at trading posts or missions along the way though.

Keep 'em coming.

TR

Roguish Lawyer

12-02-2008, 14:10

And IMHO, chickens are going to be far more trouble and attract more predators than I would want to deal with, even if they were easily portable. Yes, I have raised chickens and tended them on a farm before. I might purchase a couple from time to time at trading posts or missions along the way though.

Maybe this is a little off topic, but I have worked in chicken coops before and I freakin HATE chickens. I still take great pleasure in eating the miserable bastards.

OK, back to the topic at hand . . . :munchin

abc_123

12-02-2008, 14:15

Not exactly sure how you carry a couple of laying hens while traveling cross-country on foot, and expect eggs, but it presents an interesting concept. TR

DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT carry them bundled up in a USGI OD-Green wet weather top slung over your shoulder! They will NOT stay alive long enough to lay eggs using this method.

I attempted this method of carry during SERE with some "foraged" birds....

From experience, the birds will become very agitated, get hot, make lots of noise and crap all over themselves before suffocating to death!

Now with that said, If you are hungry enough ,you can get past the crap encrusted feathers and stench, pry them out of whatever death poses they stiffen into, and with a trickle of water and a rusty can make yourself a fine meal.

I'm not sure how much to "age" the birds to get the best flavor, but IIRC, ours aged about 1 day (entrails in) before we had the opportunity to stop and boil them up.. From what I remember it was the best meal I had had in DAYS!:)

Mmmmmmmmm!

PSM

12-02-2008, 14:41

And IMHO, chickens are going to be far more trouble and attract more predators than I would want to deal with, even if they were easily portable. Yes, I have raised chickens and tended them on a farm before. I might purchase a couple from time to time at trading posts or missions along the way though.

Keep 'em coming.

TR

Southern Fried Chicken it is, then. I was sure looking forward to fresh eggs, though. ;)

Pat

Sigaba

12-05-2008, 02:43

After several efforts, I can't phrase this post the way I'd like so I'm just going to wing it. if I'm flying out of my lane, well, fire away.

Is an aspect of the challenge being underestimated?

Is one traveling to an earlier version of a place that is known or is one traveling to another planet that seems like an earlier version of a place that is known?

In 1700, the discovery of the unconscious will be almost two centuries away. The basic building block of our identities as human beings (the self) does not exist. Even if one speaks French or Spanish or English like a native of that time, there are going to be concepts that may not be communicable. The most basic frames of understanding, 'common sense' if you will, for an explorer from the 21st century are likely to be unimaginable to every European one meets.*

If one were to choose as a companion a native American tribesman who has lived his life by the old ways, would even his knowledge 'work' among his forefathers? Or would aspects of modernity get in his way.

What would happen to a 21st century mind when faced with the vastness of the North American wilderness day after day and night after night?

________________________________________________
* Here's an example (http://www.amazon.com/Tortured-Subjects-Truth-Modern-France/dp/0226757544/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228466939&sr=8-5) from an old boss of mine. In France at about the same time of the proposed jump off, it was widely accepted that a sure way to extract the truth from a person was to torture him. Not only would the interrogators believe that the ensuing statements were true, but so would the tortured person.

Pete

12-05-2008, 06:04

......Is one traveling to an earlier version of a place that is known or is one traveling to another planet that seems like an earlier version of a place that is known?........

Sigaba, I was working in a place in Africa where the children had never seen wrapped hard candy. Jolly Ranchers were a flat out wonderment. Many here have also worked with "primitive" cultures in other parts of the world.

I would think the hardest part would be getting through the first big city filled with "educated" folks. Just keep your mouth mostly shut, don't do anything fancy, just get what you need and move out.

Blitzzz (RIP)

12-05-2008, 07:34

Sigaba, Thanks Pete, I wish I had the education to rebut or converse with your posts. I think certainly you are not talking about the official recognition of self in the modern phycology sense, ie Freudian. I suggest the "building blocks of our identities" probably precede the ancient Greeks. Instead of regurgitating someone else's theories, be more terse and to the point, or translate that abstract intellect into plebeian. Understanding different branches of progress and invention of different societies can pose problems but nothing most of us can't deal with, even with our present limited education. Blitzzz

Sigaba

12-05-2008, 10:54

Sigaba, I was working in a place in Africa where the children had never seen wrapped hard candy. Jolly Ranchers were a flat out wonderment. Many here have also worked with "primitive" cultures in other parts of the world.

I would think the hardest part would be getting through the first big city filled with "educated" folks. Just keep your mouth mostly shut, don't do anything fancy, just get what you need and move out.

Sigaba, Thanks Pete, I wish I had the education to rebut or converse with your posts. I think certainly you are not talking about the official recognition of self in the modern phycology sense, ie Freudian. I suggest the "building blocks of our identities" probably precede the ancient Greeks. Instead of regurgitating someone else's theories, be more terse and to the point, or translate that abstract intellect into plebeian. Understanding different branches of progress and invention of different societies can pose problems but nothing most of us can't deal with, even with our present limited education. Blitzzz

Pete and Blitzzz--

Understood.

Coldsteel24

12-05-2008, 15:27

I'm still compiling my list, came upon this after the frago's.

Something I haven't seen in the thread, pardon me if I missed it, were some skill sets that I think would come in handy.
I see a lot of you guys packing fire starting materials.. bow and drill method? easy to cut some cotton wood with a knife, providing you know how to make cordage (mentioned previously) to string the bow. Yucca stems work great for the "drill"

Tanning, I've seen mentioned. Note, it has taken me about a weekend to brain tan one white tail doe skin. pretty hard work without the right tools. scraper, etc. I would wager your clothes and boots will wear out.

Food. I think portable food that the natives used was pretty high in calorie content. Tallow mixed with berries and sun dried meat.

Some of the first things that came to my mind to "pack" were skills, not equipment.

I can think of three native languages that are still taught today of some fairly large tribes, that I would use part of my given 30 day prep time learning. Souix, Crow and Comanche are still spoken and you can find learning CD's and books on them on the internet.

My main point is, surviving in this environment would take more time than I've seen a lot of guys giving themselves.

my $0.02

Blitzzz (RIP)

12-05-2008, 17:03

Most of the QPs don't need that much prep time as you may need. Pack thoughtfully and move out. Languages and Phycology can be learned on the way as needed. The fact that a specific method of fire makiing doean't mean the person doesn't know how to start a fire. We are loaded with survival and primitive skills.

As I recall, this Thread is also ask us to tell what we would carry and do, not give instructions and suggestions to everyone else. Not that many are not good suggestions, but that's not the thread. Blitzzz

Coldsteel24

12-05-2008, 22:35

I did, by no means, mean to instruct anyone, I was merely trying to throw out ideas that have not, as far as I have seen, been brought to the board on this thread.
I apologize, meant no offense.

Blitzzz (RIP)

12-06-2008, 16:56

Don't forget the Rikshaw trailer to carry it all in. Blitz

JoeyB

05-05-2009, 11:46

The equipment list is harder to decide than the traveling partner, TR mentioned him earlier, Gordon Smith. Anyone that has spent more than a day with him in the woods will earn something and I know his knowledge of primitive skills and abilities is vast. However you will have to increase the amount of Rum carried.

Pete S

05-12-2009, 01:33

Saw a preview for this yesterday and thought it to be in a similar vein as this thread.

Expedition Africa: Stanley and Livingstone

Twenty miles off the coast of eastern Africa, four modern-day explorers are sailing toward the unknown, the deep interior of Tanzania. They’ll travel 970 miles through African terrain that is as stunning as it is fraught with danger. Using only a compass and basic maps, they will attempt to recapture the spirit of one of the world’s most remarkable adventures—journalist Henry Morton Stanley’s perilous 1871 journey to find Dr. Stanley Livingstone. Their historic exploration has been captured by one of the premiere storytellers of our time, Mark Burnett, for the eight-part television event, EXPEDITION AFRICA: STANLEY & LIVINGSTON

Source:
http://www.history.com/expedition/preview/

May be an interesting show to watch.
Apart from the obligatory complaining about the hardships,
this appeals to me due to there being an objective in addition to the survival aspect.
As opposed to shows like "Out of the Wild" were the objective is survival.

swpa19

05-31-2009, 16:07

Was a gorgeous day here yesterday. Wife and I decided to take a daytrip up over the mountains to Md. and back.

I had been reading and pondering this thread. I dont have a time machine, but some of the areas here are like a time warp.

On the way back, I noticed a sign informing the public that there was an encampment at Fort Necessity.

http://www.nps.gov/archive/fone/fonehist.htm

I began thinking that both Lt. Col Washington and MG Edward Braddock http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h784.html Both suffered a crushing defeats on their journeys from Wills Creek (now Cumberland, Md) to rout the french from Fort Duquesne (aka Fort Pitt).

Braddocks Road runs paralell to the National Road What route do you take? ; West along what will some day be I-40

Thanks to Pennsylvania's Rails to Trails Program, there is a trail that runs from Wills Creek to Braddocks Crossing.

http://www.atatrail.org/

This is about 152 miles. I used to help out with a JSSA (joint services sere agency) exercise that was run through this area till the late 90s. One of my functions was to acquire LUAs (Land Use Agreements) from the locals for use of their properties. I managed to make friends with quite a few of the land owners.

The point here being that a side trip (about 24 miles of virgin land) from the Great Allegheny Passage to the sites of Fort Necessity and Braddocks Grave could be also be made.

Im kicking around the idea as a local SFA chapter endeavor for around the end of September early October.

Would appreciate any advice, input or participations.

Groups have made this trips in 12 mile segments on various weekends but to my knowledge no one has made the whole trail at one time.

LarryW

06-18-2009, 13:19

Can this be accomplished successfully? Yes

Do you accept the challenge? Yes

Where do you start? Jamestown, VA

What route do you take? First Leg (15 MAR – 15 SEP): From Jamestown west-southwest cross Virginia, through Appalachians, cross Tennessee, Arkansas, and into Texas. Winter nearby Canadian River in vicinity of what is now Amarillo from SEP to MAR. Hunt buffalo and jerk meat for winter. Shelter in teepee. Learn Kiowa, Southern Cheyenne, Comanche. Second Leg: (15 MAR – 15 SEP) Due west thru northern New Mexico, Arizona and into Southern California. Turn north through Sacramento Valley then at Sacramento River turn north-northwest to vicinity of Eureka, then follow the coast north to Astoria.

Where do you plan to finish? Astoria, OR (Fort Clatsop)

How long do you think it will take you? 18 – 20 mos

What is in your field gear? Binoculars, 2 magnifying glasses, 100ft ½ inch rope, writing log and pencils, 5 pounds rock salt, 2 pounds pepper, complete field first aid kit, 1 pint whiskey, Bible, various stitching needles and thread, several colored glass beads (for barter), poncho w/liner, 1 light sweater and 1 heavy sweater, sox, skivs, several bandanas, 2 bars lye soap, 2 pr silk long johns, 1 pr lightweight hiking pants, 1 pair wool hiking pants, 1 pair buckskins, buffalo robe, 1 wide brim hat, 1 pair light hiking shoes, 1 pr boots, 25 Spanish gold pieces (for barter), 2 Magnesium Fire Starters, 2 wool blankets, 4 foil survival blankets, 4 leather bags various sizes (2 that can be used to haul water), pup-tent, 10x10 tarp, snare line, fish hooks and 10# test line, 3 canteens, cooking utensils, smoking tobacco (for barter).

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you? Critical modern items: 2 engineers compass, foot wear, tent, tarp, edged tools, binoculars, magnifying glasses, 2 wheeled pull-cart. Critical period items: Buckskins, buffalo robe

What are your priorities? Water, food, shelter. Make ~ 15 miles/day

How will you carry it? Two-wheeled pull-cart. (Modern equipment. Cabela’s-type game cart. Will buy the thing with my gold.)

What firearms will you take? None. Too much weight. Just take 2 long bows and as many arrows as I can get, 1 pound gun powder (for medicinal use and barter).

How much ammo, accessories, etc.? No ammo. Accessories listed in field gear above.

What edged tools do you take? Sapper-spade, 2 Gurka knives, 2 machetes, 2 large survival hunting knives, small folding saw, butcher knife, small hatchet. (Extra edged tools could be bartered as necessary.)

What navigational aids do you take? 2 compasses, sextant, table of astronomical elements, timepiece, map of U.S.

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey? 100%

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave? Learn to navigate. Train and prepare. Talk to anyone who had recently come back from the west. (Talk to my detailer and try to get my orders changed. When he says no, train and prepare some more.)

Let’s think this one through as stated first, we can do branches and sequels later.

Thoughts? The mission is to explore, not necessarily conquer, neither is the mission a race. Would want to impact the flora/fauna as little as possible, consistent with survival. Try to leave as little sign of me as I passed. Important to learn how to communicate with indigenous people for support if needed, esp in identifying local medicinal herbs, edible roots/berries, safe route ahead, etc. Game would be abundant (imagine no limit on trout and no deer tags!). Must smoke/jerk meat for travel as it’s killed. Use excess meat for barter as needed. Live on as much vegetation (roots, berries, legumes, etc) as possible to ease amount of calories needed for digestion. Object to move from can-see to ~ mid afternoon before making camp. If making good time move every-other-day, vice continuous. (The more calories you burn the more you have to eat/drink.) This is not a race but an exploration. The goal is to learn. Hunt in late afternoon/dusk. Taking the southern route will lessen impact of winter. Means crossing the Mojave desert in early spring, but Monsoon rains should lessen impact. If I had to take the northern route I’d leave from Philadelphia in late FEB and plan to winter in Dakotas camping NLT AUG and resuming in APR. Northern trip would require about another 60 days due to crossing the Rockies. Would lose the PDA and the recorders and all the hi-tech stuff…too much additional weight. Besides I’ll have a log book and pencils! An interesting challenge. Fun to consider. Sounds like the beginning of a new reality show. I’d watch!

PSM

12-07-2010, 18:54

Anybody home yet? :confused:

Pat

ZonieDiver

12-07-2010, 22:29

Home. Waiting for pick-up at La Jolla Cove!

Seriously, waiting to retire and teach at a charter school where I can have a project where students can have beyond a musket without assuming it is 'gang-related'!

PSM

12-07-2010, 23:08

Home. Waiting for pick-up at La Jolla Cove!

Early on I was thinking of Point Loma, but I've recently spent a lot of time in the area East of San Diego and it's pretty damned rugged. I'm heading for Point Dume Rock, now. But, I'd cross from Yuma across the shorter section of waterless desert toward SD then skirt the mountains on the east and up and west through the Banning pass. Crossing from what is now Blythe would entail multiple caching rucks and add about a gillion miles to the trek.

p.s.: My wife is a certificated Schoolmarm! ;)

Pat

ZonieDiver

12-07-2010, 23:21

Early on I was thinking of Point Loma, but I've recently spent a lot of time in the area East of San Diego and it's pretty damned rugged. I'm heading for Point Dume Rock, now. But, I'd cross from Yuma across the shorter section of waterless desert toward SD then skirt the mountains on the east and up and west through the Banning pass. Crossing from what is now Blythe would entail multiple caching rucks and add about a gillion miles to the trek.

p.s.: My wife is a certificated Schoolmarm! ;)

Pat

That is the route I have chosen - in winter! There are lots of 'springs' along the way - Borrega Springs, etc. Water is available. I picked LJ Cove because it is SO readily identifiable - from a map or in person.

Golf1echo

12-08-2010, 04:11

While taking US Military History at the Univ.of Az. The Prof. mentioned that back in the 60's he was approached by two men from SF, they asked him to compile a list of the books pertaining to warfare with the Indians thinking there may be some lessons they could take away. Somewhere there is an excellent list of the books they compiled. I saw the list he gave to them and have read many of the books. John C Cremony's "Life Among the Apache" was my favorite, Lt Beale's writings ( crossed todays NM and AZ along Route 66 with Camels), Gen. Crook,etc...all wonderful reading and very insightful, perhaps even today? There are detailed descriptions of traveling across the US Southwest, the encounters with the different indigenous peoples and equipment used. Some of the gear you would be taking back would really influence the Indian population, both in good ways and bad. ie. once when the geological survey was mapping out the Southern border ( which was to include a sea port in the Gulf of California....they found out there were sporting houses in Yuma and look at the line we got) they used a telescope to view an eclipse of the moon, with few skills in the language of the Pimas they told the Indians it was a moon cannon. They were almost killed by the tribe when the eclipse began and only quick thinking and the excuse that it would only be temporary so as to thwart an Apache raiding party delayed the action, when the moon reappeared they were elevated to god like status and the celebration began. Grizzly bear ranged down into New Mexico, the Spanish had been waring with the Indians for nearly a century and a half by 1700's, routes, water holes, game areas could all be referenced before the journey.
It pays to be with the guys who want to know.....

ZonieDiver

12-08-2010, 12:20

...once when the geological survey was mapping out the Southern border ( which was to include a sea port in the Gulf of California....they found out there were sporting houses in Yuma and look at the line we got)...

This information, in a couple varieties, appears several times in some works. It is usually labeled as untrue. The fact of the matter is that Mexico insisted on a narrow connection of land between the mainland and Baja, knowing that if Baja were 'cut-off' from the rest of Mexico, it would be like ceding it to the US.

Besides, there were about 50 people in what was then Arizona :D with little transportation, and no need for a poor seaport in the Sea of Cortez, especially after only recently obtaining one of the best natural harbors in the world - San Diego!

It does make a great story, however!

Buffalobob

12-19-2010, 14:28

Can this be accomplished successfully?
Sure

Do you accept the challenge?
Sure

Where do you start?
Charleston would be fine.

What route do you take?
Start at Charleston and go west toward Atlanta and then Birmingham to Texarkana and Red River into Texas to San Juan River to Colorado River to California. Being from the south the first part of the trip is easy for me to make and as general rule the Indian tribes were peaceful. The eastern Texas tribes were also agricultural and peaceful.

Where do you plan to finish?
Lower California between Long Beach and San Diego depending on what route can be found with water available every two days of marching.

Take my time and set the rendezvous for the latest possible date but get there early and wait in sunny California

How long do you think it will take you?
2200 miles straight line equals about 3000 actually traveled
8 miles a day gives 380-400 days
I think I would start in March. I would be into the Mississippi delta by early autumn and the River crossing would be easier but I would have to face winter out on the western plains.

What is in your field gear?
Beside things I mentioned in other answers I would take the following
Leather sewing kit
Six pairs of sox
Hat with brim
One complete change of pants and shirts
One pair of modern boots and one of high moccasins capable of being resoled

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?

Backpack
Water purification device
2-Tarps for tent
Fishhooks
2 Titanium pots
Synthetic fill Sleeping bag
Space blanket
Synthetic thread, twine, rope.
Fire starting gear
Monocular or telescope
First aid kit with modern antibiotics
Two 5 qt water bags and two one quart hard canteens.
A small amount of gold for trade with the Spanish but the steel arrowheads and trade knives would be more versatile for the natives.
Couple of dry bags for stuff like ammo
Calendar device such as a watch. Need to know day and month in order to stay on schedule.

What are your priorities?
Water is critical once one gets into the plains and desert regions – Say west Texas to California. The object is to get to the Pacific Ocean so the lower California crossing has to be reviewed very carefully for water sources.
Snow storms in the western states - one must be prepared to survive them,
Safe river crossing are important to not getting hurt or losing gear in the eastern leg
Staying healthy and not pushing too hard and fast.
My plan is to pack about 8 miles per day which will take about 4-5 hours. Cook one meal per day in the evening and use leftovers for breakfast and lunch. So I would have about 4+ hours for hunting/gathering and gear repair and camp chores.

How will you carry it?
Expedition sized backpack if allowed (the term “period luggage” might mean a wood frame pack which will be a bummer but easier to repair if something breaks).
I have a wheel cart that I use often when hunting and it is useless without a good trail so I have no inclination to take something like that.

What firearms will you take?
I would take a folding carbon fiber stocked Volquartsen22 mag with iron sights and carbon fiber wrap barrel. 500 rds of ammo = 5pounds and that’s about one bullet a day. MV is about 2000fps.
Only two animals that would present a problem are the two species of bears and if you get into a fight with a bear you just got a major problem no matter what firearm you got. In a fight with hostile people, the rifle has accuracy and killing ability beyond what the opposing force will have. Of course you will be outnumbered but it won’t be the first time so that is nothing new. “Used for self defence in a revolver, the .22 WMR has compiled a 42% one shot stop rate according to Marshall and Sanow”
Wolves, mountain lions and other large predators get the majority of their food from small game and that is my plan. Small game is more plentiful and easier to kill and cook. You spend all day killing a buffalo and then days drying meat as opposed to just whacking a rabbit and moving on. If you move along waterways then you will have opportunities for fish, waterfowl, rabbits, etc, plus big game.
Killing a buffalo, moose or large elk can be done with the small caliber if one is willing to spend a couple of days at it. All that is needed is to take one rear quartering shot into the intestines and not spook the animal. As the pain gets bad it will bed down and then after 6-8 hours peritonitis will take over and you walk up and finish it with a knife- BTDT. Fooling around with a large animal and trying to dry meat and tan hides for new boots will be a very time consuming and labor intensive effort and you can’t carry much meat anyway. The only real reasons to kill a buffalo is if you need the neck hide for boot soles or if you are holed up over wintering. A dry buffalo hide weighs about 25 pounds and occupies about 2 cubic feet of space or more. Probably will need to stop for two or three weeks in the late fall to refurbish boots and clothing with tanned hides – hair on and off.

I would take string suitable for a bowstring (nonstretch) and if necessary build (which I know how to do), trade for or steal a bow and make arrows. I would need to do a little research on trees suitable for bow wood along the route. But as long as the rifle was working and ammo supply was good I would not carry the extra weight. I might carry about 50 steel, 2 blade broadheads as I don’t think I want to learn how to nap flint and you need weight forward on an arrow.

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?
At least 500 rds and perhaps another 200 if it will make the weight limit. Four magazines of 9 rds each. No cleaning gear.

What edged tools do you take?
I am not expert on survival type knives, but I would guess the current Harsey/Reeves SF is a good general purpose knife. I would ditch the scabbard as being too heavy and sew me a light weight one such as I make for my butchering knives. I would add six trade knives and leave most of the gold behind. I would have to research taking a stone versus finding suitable rocks for sharpening.
I have used folding saws a lot and they are good for the weight and I might carry one for building rafts until I cross the Mississippi River. It would be high on my optional equipment list.

What navigational aids do you take?
Duplicate set of water proof maps and one compass. Map scale would be 1 inch = 10 miles which would give me a 30 page set using 10 inch by 10 inch paper. I would mark alternate routes and checkpoints for schedule conformance

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?
95+%
Other than bad luck I think the need to have a balanced diet and avoid nutritional deficiencies is going to be the most difficult part.
I spend a couple of months alone every year in the mountains so I pretty much understand individual effort and being alone.

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?
The one thing I would study would be identification of edible plants. My knowledge of them is very weak. Getting meat I can do but vegetables/berries would be a challenge. Second I would relearn Spanish. Review first aid and common diseases. Read up on basic leather craft for boot and moccasins, Finally, I would review the route in great detail because the San Juan/ Colorado River legs have a lot of vertical terrain and one would need to have that part well defined. Also lay out a alternative route through the Spanish settlements. Get in shape for a heavy ruck.

Pete

12-19-2010, 17:52

Alone

A number of people have posted on this thread. Just how many of you have been out in the deep dark woods - all alone by yourself - nobody around for miles - moved and hiked a wilderness area for at least a couple of nights?

For those that have not you'll find a whole different mindset in "ALONE" vs at least one other companion.

And I'm not talking about being alone at some campground surrounded by people. I'm talking way out there.

Try it and see what it's like.

But a word of warning - know where you're going and the trail you'll be hiking - leave a hike plan with somebody you trust and make a contact plan for Sunday night so you can tell them you're out OK -and stick with the plan and stay on the trail. You break your leg Saturday morning you'll only have to sit there 48 hours before somebody comes looking. A lot of those areas have real spotty cell coverage.

And hey - you guys that have done it don't be filling up this thread with "Hey, I've done that" - and you others - get out there and do it.

Do it enough and you'll know why Buffalobob talks to himself sometimes :D .

The Reaper

12-19-2010, 20:55

Bob:

I have to say, on this occasion, I like the way you are thinking.

I might vary on a few specifics, but you have a decent plan.

TR

BlackHills

12-24-2010, 12:56

Excellent thread....I'm glad this was brought back up, I'd missed it.

Can this be accomplished successfully?
Yes

Do you accept the challenge?
Yes

Where do you start?
New York City

What route do you take?
I’d head west until I arrived at the Ohio River. I’d make a raft and float down the Ohio until I reached southern IL and then cross over to St. Louis. I’d follow the Missouri River to the Platte and then the Platte into WY. There I’d cross the Rockies at South Pass and then hug the south side of the Wind River Mtns since there are better sources of water near them. At some point I’d cut over into ID, reach the Columbia River and follow it to the coast. I’m familiar with most of the route and I can handle the cold weather better than the heat and humidity of the southern route. By following the rivers navigation is easier and they provide a food and water source. I could also use a canoe to travel as long as the water isn’t high.

Where do you plan to finish?
At the mouth of the Columbia River.

How long do you think it will take you?
Two years minimum and possibly three years.

What is in your field gear?
I would wear period gear for the most part, buckskins and wool, though I would want more modern boots to start. I would guess that at some point I’d have to switch over to self-made footwear. I would take some modern long underwear.

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?

Modern:
Bic Lighters –They’re light so I’d take a dozen or more, both for use and as possible trade material
Ferro rods
Backpack
Down sleeping bag (Feathered Friends)
Silnylon tent (Six Moons Lunar Duo or a Tarptent) as well as a couple of silnylon tarps
Snow Peak Ti pots
Leica binos
Fish hooks
Water purification tabs – For times when boiling isn’t practical
MSR Dromedary bags
First aid kit with plenty of penicillin
Boots
Weapons/Knives
Sewing Kit/Needles
Compasses
Hygiene gear
A multitool in case I had to work on the weapons

Period:
Clothing
Possibles bag
Wool blankets
Flint and steel
Sextant
Gold coins
Trade beads

What are your priorities?
Completing the mission.
Avoiding firefights and preventing disease/injury.
Not pushing myself too hard.

How will you carry it?
A good backpack - maybe a Dana Designs (Bozeman) Terraplane or Astralplane Overkill. I’d also look into Mystery Ranch or Kifaru. I’d raft or canoe whenever possible.

What firearms will you take?
I would have a custom O/U rifle built with two interchangeable barrel sets, one in 6.5x55mm and one in .22. I’d have A2 type sights on the 6.5mm barrel and a simple adjustable sight on the .22 barrel. I’d also pack a .22 DA revolver and a couple of speedloaders.

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?
100-200 rounds of 6.5mm and 1000-2000 rounds of .22 depending on the weight of the rest of my gear.

What edged tools do you take?
I’d carry a 4-5 inch general purpose knife (probably by Ray Laconico), a 3 inch puukko and a GB Small Forest Axe. I’d also take a folding saw or a collapsible buck saw. I’d pack along a couple of the DMT Dia-fold sharpeners. I’d likely be tempted to bring a Leuku along as well.

What navigational aids do you take?
Two compasses and a sextant. I’d like small scale maps covering perhaps 25 miles on each side of my intended route as well as an atlas size map of the US/Canada in case I have to make a major detour.

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?
50-50 at best.

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?
I couldn’t begin to do all the prep I’d like in 30 days and I’d want more time to prepare. However, given the time frame I’d probably concentrate on using the sextant, basic edible plant ID, leather tanning, and learning to make soap and pemmican.

You may take another person back with you, if you are willing to split the money with them 50-50.

I’d take Mors Kochanski and alter my route; Portland ME to Montreal, then canoe the Great Lakes hugging the shoreline and up the Boundary Waters area. At some point we’d switch to walking and cross back into the US in MT. I’d then follow the Missouri a bit before heading south to the Columbia and the coast. Mors has vast knowledge of the boreal forest and native skills. In that time period the French fur trade had pushed fairly far west in Canada so I could take advantage of their routes and settlements.

As an alternate I might bring along “Ishi” if I could find a way to communicate with him.

You can buy and use a horse, or other beast of burden, to ride or as a pack animal. What animal do you choose? Is it for riding, or for packing? What do you add to your basic load out? Do you use an external carriage system, like a cart, wagon, travois, etc.?

A mule for a pack animal but it would also be saddle broke just in case. If this allows me to up my load weight I’d bring wool blankets for use and trade as well as food such as beans and rice. I’d probably also bring some tobacco along for trading purposes. Everything would be packed on the mule. If I was going the Canadian route I would purchase the mule along the way.

dknob

12-19-2011, 10:24

Can this be accomplished successfully? Yes

Do you accept the challenge? Yes

Where do you start? Charleston, SC

What route do you take? SC > NC > TN > KY > MO > NE > WY > ID > OR

Where do you plan to finish? Waldport, OR

How long do you think it will take you?
Journey is roughly 2900 miles, at 7 miles a day for 450 days will come out to 3150 miles. So I decide to play it safe and go with 475 days to finish.

What is in your field gear?
-Cold weather sleeping bag (4 pounds)
- x2 pair of hiking boots (6 pounds)
- x1 pair of hiking shoes/trail running (2 pounds)
- CLOTHING package of two pair of gloves, 4 pants (some will be woodland BDU), a beanie, a Cold weather jacket, a dozen socks, shirts, and long sleeve tops will be around 13-15 pounds
- poncho
- deciding not to bring a tent, and rather make a shelter if it asolutely required it

What modern items are critical, and what items from the period will work for you?
- Sewing kit
- Hygiene kit (8 bars of soap, x3 tubes of toothpaste)
- Medkit: antibiotics, ibuprofen, gauze, etc. (4 pounds)

What are your priorities?
Compass, map, medical kit
- first starting kit, matches, lighters, etc

How will you carry it?
ALICE pack - estimated weight will be 55-65 pounds in the pack, and weapon will be roughly 10 pounds.

What firearms will you take?
HK417 (9 pounds), 20 inch barrel
- 6 flashbangs to ward off a grizzly or something

How much ammo, accessories, etc.?
- 400 rounds of 7.62x51 @ roughly 22 pounds
- ACOG

What edged tools do you take?
- Machete 1 pound
- E tool 1.5 pounds
- 2 multitools - 1 pound
- sharpener

What navigational aids do you take?
- military compass and maps of the US
- flashlight (preferrably surefire) with extra batteries (wont be used commonly, only for emergency purposes, so not taking many batteries)

What do you think your odds are of successfully completing this journey?
- 90% chance of success

What do you do in the 30 days before you leave?
- study study study survival guides and flora and fauna along my journey (whats edible, whats not, how to cook, how to set traps, etc etc)

Let’s think this one through as stated first, we can do branches and sequels later.

Thoughts?

TR

I just saw this awesome thread and thought I'd throw my plan out there - I made sure to not read any other replies so I don't start copying ideas.

The Reaper

12-19-2011, 17:35

I just saw this awesome thread and thought I'd throw my plan out there - I made sure to not read any other replies so I don't start copying ideas.

Kudos for your honesty.

If you read the thread, you will see why several of your choices could be improved upon. Might be worth doing now and adjust fire as needed.

What states do you plan to be in during the 1-2 winters you will be travelling? I wouldn't want it to be in any of the last four you named with the gear you have listed when the snows come.

TR

PSM

12-19-2011, 17:57

dknob

12-20-2011, 09:24

Kudos for your honesty.

If you read the thread, you will see why several of your choices could be improved upon. Might be worth doing now and adjust fire as needed.

What states do you plan to be in during the 1-2 winters you will be travelling? I wouldn't want it to be in any of the last four you named with the gear you have listed when the snows come.

TR

The way I see it - if I start in Charleston and move NW to cross the apps through NC and then to central TN is about 400 miles, at my distance of 7 miles a day that SHOULD take 2 months. But Im allocating 3 months to make that trek. And I decided to do it starting November and finish that leg in January.

Second leg would be from TN to NW Missouri another 400 miles which at 7 miles a day will be 2 months long. Even though I foresee myself doing much more then 7 in these states for some days. This will be from January to March.

Third leg would be from NW Missouri to Northern Nebraska - another 400 miles in 2 months at the most. This will be from March to May.

Fourth leg will take me to the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, 400 miles later from Northern Nebraska to central Wyoming - From May to July.

Starting in Central Wyoming, I give myself more then enough time to get to the Western Idaho - a whopping 5 months - I should need only 4 since im traveling this leg from July to November.

Last leg is from Idaho to the coast of Oregon, another 400 miles in about 2 months from November to January.

-----------------
In terms of equipment changes:
* 550 cord, 200 + feet.
* Although I do have a cold weather sleeping bag that I saw on amazon that seems legit - I will also bring a single person tent to battle the elements.
* i will have a map of the US as mentioned, but it obviously wont be 1:24,000 or whatever you mentioned before. Just enough to show me the major rivers, ranges, etc (landmarks).
*Although I will bring a map of a very detailed pacific northwest because in case something goes wrong and Im in Southern Oregon instead of Northern Oregon and I dont know my bearings. i can end up walking south towards california and miss my ride.
* I still wont bring electornics - i dont need them.
* water purifiers? Ive humped the shit out of the balkan mountain ranges as wel as the rockys. you dont need water purifiers.. you definitely dont need them in 1700.
* Food wise - some reserve packets of very high caloric meals, nothing too bulky - 4-5 pounds worth.

So I rpobably upped my weight to about 10 pounds so im looking at a 68-72 pound ruck.