Ugh... human interest Gitmo story

[charlietwo]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/26/america/gitmo.php

"Conditions are more isolating than many death rows and maximum-security prisons in the United States, said Jules Lobel, a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh who is an expert on U.S. prison conditions."

"In response to questions, Commander Pauline Storum, the spokeswoman for Guantánamo, asserted that detainees were much healthier psychologically than the population in U.S. prisons. Storum said about 10 percent could be found mentally ill, compared, she said, with data showing that more than half of inmates in U.S. correctional institutions had mental health problems."

I don't know what to say anymore. Do these people realize that they would cut the throats of them and their children, as if they were goats? What is it really going to take for our hapless flock of sheep in this country to wake up? I wonder if this will be Gitmo's 'last hard class' ? :D

[Remington Raidr]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/26/america/gitmo.php

"Conditions are more isolating than many death rows and maximum-security prisons in the United States, said Jules Lobel, a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh who is an expert on U.S. prison conditions."

"In response to questions, Commander Pauline Storum, the spokeswoman for Guantánamo, SHOULD HAVE SAID, YES, THEY ARE, AND THEY SHOULD BE."

But, it will never happen.

[DTH350]

Charlietwo -

You asked when the hapless flock of sheep in this country is going to wake up; I wonder if I am a member of the hapless flock. Yet, I am aware of my own ignorance, so, perhaps, I am not.

I am a civilian - no prior military experience. From my perspective, the military world seems shrouded in secrecy - I assume the nature of such necessitates; however, the information the public really wants to know is classified, and for the reason of protecting the very public that wishes it revealed. So I, and I think many other members of the public, find ourselves in a sort of catch-22. We want to know the truth and, yet, we want to be protected. Can we have both? Our government seems to deny that option (not that that is necessarily negative).

Those persons who are civilians wind up jumping on bandwagons. One being the complete cynic who distrust everything the government says; the other being the advocate for the government who blindly believes everything it says. And for those who do happen to fall in the middle...well, we are just confused as much as we are curious.

I have never interacted with a terrorist; I have no idea if all of those detainees at GTMO want to cut my throat. Just as every American is not an extremist Christian fundamentalist, not every Arab is an Islamic fundamentalist. And I do not find it so difficult to conceive that perhaps some of the detainees at GTMO are wrongfully there - just as I imagine there are some American citizens wrongfully convicted and currently detained in U.S. prisons.

The primary difference between the two being: The Americans received a trial with the right of counsel; the detainees have not.

Now, many would urge me to think that since the detainees wish to slit my throat, they don't deserve a trial or sanitary living conditions; but, again, I do not know if they all want to slit my throat.

Moreover, whether they do or not, their motivations and intentions should not negate our sense of morality.

We are the United States of America - a beacon of light in a world of despair, tyranny and oppression. Our forefathers preached that we are a society not of men but of laws; that the ends do not justify the means; and that it is in times of desperation and hardship that our resolve to adhere to the foundational principles of our nation is most necessarily required, and that to do otherwise is to pull the rug out from under all that we have built – all that we believe. What do we believe?

We believe that all men are created equal –at least in the eyes of the law. We believe in the judicial concept of innocent until proven guilty. We believe in freedom from the tools of oppression and tyranny (the SF motto exemplifies this belief to the utmost). We believe in the idea of Justice sought through just means.

Are all of these beliefs conditioned upon first being American? Are only all American men created equal? Only Americans are innocent until proven guilty? Or, do we believe in these concepts irrespective of nationality? I think it is wise to afford such rights, even to those who would do us harm for we are the greatest and most powerful and freest country on earth; and, if we cannot lead the way, create the path for others to follow, then the demise of the free world has already begun and the rug been long since pulled out from under us.

So, when will the hapless flock of sheep wake up? Excellent question. Another question: How can we wake up?

These are difficult questions with difficult answers and it is easy to preach taking the supposed high road of not allowing the ends to justify the means; however, the responsibility of protecting American citizens from terrorism is not a burden that has yet been placed upon my back and I am wholly unfamiliar with the realities of your world, so my apologies if my ignorance of your realities is painfully obvious.

To those who do carry this load, I first and foremost offer my sincerest gratitude and, if I may, humbly request some feedback as to the great debate of whether the ends justify the means.

[Team Sergeant]

Charlietwo -

You asked when the hapless flock of sheep in this country is going to wake up; I wonder if I am a member of the hapless flock. Yet, I am aware of my own ignorance, so, perhaps, I am not.

I am a civilian - no prior military experience. From my perspective, the military world seems shrouded in secrecy - I assume the nature of such necessitates; however, the information the public really wants to know is classified, and for the reason of protecting the very public that wishes it revealed. So I, and I think many other members of the public, find ourselves in a sort of catch-22. We want to know the truth and, yet, we want to be protected. Can we have both? Our government seems to deny that option (not that that is necessarily negative).

Those persons who are civilians wind up jumping on bandwagons. One being the complete cynic who distrust everything the government says; the other being the advocate for the government who blindly believes everything it says. And for those who do happen to fall in the middle...well, we are just confused as much as we are curious.

I have never interacted with a terrorist; I have no idea if all of those detainees at GTMO want to cut my throat. Just as every American is not an extremist Christian fundamentalist, not every Arab is an Islamic fundamentalist. And I do not find it so difficult to conceive that perhaps some of the detainees at GTMO are wrongfully there - just as I imagine there are some American citizens wrongfully convicted and currently detained in U.S. prisons.

The primary difference between the two being: The Americans received a trial with the right of counsel; the detainees have not.

Now, many would urge me to think that since the detainees wish to slit my throat, they don't deserve a trial or sanitary living conditions; but, again, I do not know if they all want to slit my throat.

Moreover, whether they do or not, their motivations and intentions should not negate our sense of morality.

We are the United States of America - a beacon of light in a world of despair, tyranny and oppression. Our forefathers preached that we are a society not of men but of laws; that the ends do not justify the means; and that it is in times of desperation and hardship that our resolve to adhere to the foundational principles of our nation is most necessarily required, and that to do otherwise is to pull the rug out from under all that we have built – all that we believe. What do we believe?

We believe that all men are created equal –at least in the eyes of the law. We believe in the judicial concept of innocent until proven guilty. We believe in freedom from the tools of oppression and tyranny (the SF motto exemplifies this belief to the utmost). We believe in the idea of Justice sought through just means.

Are all of these beliefs conditioned upon first being American? Are only all American men created equal? Only Americans are innocent until proven guilty? Or, do we believe in these concepts irrespective of nationality? I think it is wise to afford such rights, even to those who would do us harm for we are the greatest and most powerful and freest country on earth; and, if we cannot lead the way, create the path for others to follow, then the demise of the free world has already begun and the rug been long since pulled out from under us.

So, when will the hapless flock of sheep wake up? Excellent question. Another question: How can we wake up?

These are difficult questions with difficult answers and it is easy to preach taking the supposed high road of not allowing the ends to justify the means; however, the responsibility of protecting American citizens from terrorism is not a burden that has yet been placed upon my back and I am wholly unfamiliar with the realities of your world, so my apologies if my ignorance of your realities is painfully obvious.

To those who do carry this load, I first and foremost offer my sincerest gratitude and, if I may, humbly request some feedback as to the great debate of whether the ends justify the means.

We are the United States of America - a beacon of light in a world of despair, tyranny and oppression.

I guess that would depend on your perspective.;)

a beacon of light

No sir, that would be individuals such as yourself that hold America to such high standards.;)

Do us/me a favor, finish school, go SF for a few years and then become an attorney. After a few years as an attorney run for office. We need more individuals like you acting on behalf of the people. Oh and one more thing, never quit and never give your up integrity.

Team Sergeant

[wood1271]

1

[bluebb]

While our forefathers where men of great wisdom and fore sight, when the time came for actions rather than words they got busy killing the enemies of our nation.

The asshats (excuse me, I mean detainees) in Gitmo are lucky we are being merciful.
Blue

[Remington Raidr]

about unsanitary living conditions in the orignal post, along with the lack of due process.

As to your quandry, these people are not criminals, not members of society, they belong in cages. Military tribunals can review status for those wrongly detained, but after all the hand wringing and navel gazing, there have been instances of detainees being released and winding up back out there killing Americans.

If you want to be a beacon to the world, you better protect your power source. The Constituion is not a suicide pact.

[DTH350]

Remington Raidr -

Excellent notion, one which I had not yet conceived. Confidently, I agree with the assertion that the Constitution is not to be a suicide pact. But the frayed pages of our great constitution can be stretched both ways: Strict adherence, without taking into account the realities of the world, could prove fatal; on the other hand, too far a departure, without alloting Constitutional dictates their due respect, may also prove fatal, thus we are left with a balancing act - one in which the tight-rope sways violently and there is no safety-net. Again, it is an extremely difficult tasks and I do not portend to know how best to manage it.
But when you say we must protect our power source, I most surely agree; however, from where we derive such power is a different question altogether. So I ask you, what is our power source? And, whatever it may be, is it possible to lose that source of power as a result of the very means chosen to protect it?
Thank you for your reply - Again, I really like the notion that our Constitution is not to be a suicide pact - actually, if you don't mind, I would like to use it in a paper I am writing for my National Security course??

[The Reaper]

Remington Raidr -

Excellent notion, one which I had not yet conceived. Confidently, I agree with the assertion that the Constitution is not to be a suicide pact. But the frayed pages of our great constitution can be stretched both ways: Strict adherence, without taking into account the realities of the world, could prove fatal; on the other hand, too far a departure, without alloting Constitutional dictates their due respect, may also prove fatal, thus we are left with a balancing act - one in which the tight-rope sways violently and there is no safety-net. Again, it is an extremely difficult tasks and I do not portend to know how best to manage it.
But when you say we must protect our power source, I most surely agree; however, from where we derive such power is a different question altogether. So I ask you, what is our power source? And, whatever it may be, is it possible to lose that source of power as a result of the very means chosen to protect it?
Thank you for your reply - Again, I really like the notion that our Constitution is not to be a suicide pact - actually, if you don't mind, I would like to use it in a paper I am writing for my National Security course??

The source of the quote "The Constitution is not a suicide pact" was originally Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson in Terminiello v. Chicago, 1949.

TR

[DTH350]

TR -

Thank you for the information. Haven't taken Consitutional Law/Civil Liberties yet. Interesting, though, that Jackson's discussion was a dissent - great final paragraph either way and on point for the discussion:

"This Court has gone far toward accepting the doctrine that civil liberty means the removal of all restraints from these crowds and that all local attempts to maintain order are impairments of the liberty of the citizen. The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

Thanks again.

[Remington Raidr]

Total Recall. I am impressed.:o