View Full Version : New BDUs
The Army is adopting a new BDU called the Ground Warrior Combat Uniform...
perhaps a little more information would be too much to ask?
EGG
Does it mean that it is only for warriors? I'm willing to bet that the REMF non-warriors will be wearing it before the true warriors.
That's kind of like the Seiko Watches, survival knives and wrist compasses in C&C, Everyone in Danang had them and we were lucky to maybe get one. I guess clerks needed the compass to navigate to the snack bar and back and the watch to know when it is time to get off. I'm not sure what they needed the survival knife for unless it was to fish in the water jug. They also had boonie hats with panels sewen inside and pen-flares in case they needed an extraction from the local Ho-house.:rolleyes:
rubberneck
05-15-2004, 08:57
From the Army Times:
10 BDU changes in the works
By Matthew Cox
Times staff writer
When soldiers in the Army’s first Stryker brigade deploy to Iraq next month, they will be outfitted in a unique new uniform.
The troops will be wearing the “Close Combat Uniform,” an experimental redesign of the Battle Dress Uniform aimed to better suit the needs of today’s combat soldiers.
The changes are intended to be practical, but several are a striking departure from the current BDU, including a mandarin-style collar, large pockets on the shoulders, built-in knee and elbow pads and a zip-up shirt.
Command Sgt. Major Mike Kelso drew a lot of attention when he modeled the prototype uniform at the 2003 Infantry Conference at Fort Benning, Ga., held Sept. 8 to 12.
“I’ve gotten a lot of comments on it,” said Kelso, the command sergeant major of the Infantry Center, after giving conference-goers a look at the new uniform, cut from the current BDU woodland pattern and made specifically for him. Kelso said he likes the many changes.
Each soldier in the Fort Lewis, Wash.-based 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division is being issued two sets of the redesigned uniform in the Army’s standard desert camouflage pattern, said Barry Hauck, assistant product manager for Product Manager Clothing and Individual Equipment.
Soldiers in that brigade offered a lot of input into potential changes needed in a new BDU, so when unit leaders requested sets to wear on deployment to Iraq with, uniform officials complied. But those soldiers will not be a formal part of the test process. That role goes to the second Stryker Brigade Combat Team, part of the 25th Infantry Division at Lewis, who will wear and test the new duds from November through February. They will be at the forefront of evaluations that will factor into whether the uniform one day could be issued Army-wide.
“The second Stryker brigade is our test vehicle,” Hauck said.
Uniform officials said that deploying the uniform with the first Stryker brigade will give them a chance to see how the proposed changes hold up in an operational environment over the long term.
The Stryker brigade testing the close-combat uniform at Fort Lewis will see versions of the BDU in two styles the Army is considering as the future camouflage pattern: a gray, tan and black “urban track” design, and a “scorpion” design that is a muted version of the current woodland pattern.
The testing is separate from Army evaluations of a possible wrinkle-free BDU.
Testing the close-combat uniform won’t cost the troops involved any cash, since the Army is issuing each soldier his or her BDUs. Troops in the first Stryker brigade will get two sets each, a total of about 8,400 sets, at a cost of about $100 a pop, Hauck said.
“It’s an opportunity to say ‘we heard what you had to say.’ We are demonstrating to soldiers that we are being responsive,” Hauck said.
Most soldiers who saw the new uniform at Fort Benning liked the new pockets and other added features. Kelso even had a few more ideas, saying the Army should think about adding zippers underneath the arms for venting. Another change he recommended is to make new side-opening breast pockets a little larger.
Once the test uniform has been out in the field, soldiers no doubt will have plenty of input on what works, what doesn’t and other changes they would like to see.
The redesign effort is the first step toward the Advanced Combat Uniform, a new type of battlefield attire designed specifically for the needs of soldiers in combat.
Over the long haul, the ACU is supposed to create a multi-layer uniform that eliminates the need for inclement weather gear and nuclear, biological and chemical protective garments.
But in the short term, the ACU includes a number of practical improvements to the BDU based on soldier suggestions, said Dave Nelson, deputy product manager for clothing and individual equipment.
“The key to the concept is it’s a combat uniform, not a garrison uniform,” said Dave Geringer, assistant product manager for Product Manager Clothing and Individual Equipment.
This will no doubt create challenges the Army will have to address, Nelson said. Some will be small, such as how soldiers will wear unit shoulder patches if shoulder pockets are added to the uniform.
Others will be more complex, such as the logistical challenges of having a uniform designed specifically for combat, Nelson said.
“There are cultural and logistical decisions that have to be carefully considered with just about every path we take,” Nelson said, adding that this is just one step in a long process.
“It is too early to say whether this is going to replace BDUs.”
Basic changes
Pockets on the shoulders, a feature liked by special operations soldiers. Uniform officials have yet to determine how rank insignia would be attached, but velcro strips similar to those used by Spec Ops soldiers is one possibility.
No more lower pockets on the front of the BDU shirt. The two pockets have often been criticized as impractical when wearing body armor and load-bearing gear, and have been removed.
Side openings on the remaining two front breast pockets so they are accessible from the side where body armor opens.
Knee and elbow pockets — added so soldiers can insert hard or soft protective padding.
No more rear trouser pockets.
Raised side cargo pockets to make them more accessible.
New pockets on the outer calf have been added to make small items easily reachable when in the kneeling position.
Comfort and appearance
The shirt has a zippered front instead of buttons, meant to be faster to take on and off, and better venting. A flap secured by Velcro folds over the zipper for concealment.
The shirt is shorter, in order to cut down on bulk when soldiers tuck it in during field operations.
A mandarin-style collar. Solders proposed this change for better protection from weather and when soldiers are participating in air-assault missions. The collar is held closed with a Velcro tab. The collar can be folded down and affixed with a rank insignia device.
IMHO there is no need for a unit patch on a combat uniform, inless, of course, you are "profiling" instead of combattng.
When I worked with the SAS they didn't wear rank. They said they knew who was who and no body else needed to know. Combat leaders wore distinctive belts, similar to our combat leaders wearing green leadership tabs, presuming they still do.
The Army is getting close to the Boy Scouts in that before long they are going to need sasheh to display all of their ribbons (merit badges).“The key to the concept is it’s a combat uniform, not a garrison uniform,” said Dave Geringer, assistant product manager for Product Manager Clothing and Individual Equipment.
NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 10:16
I'm not sure I would have gone with zippers on the shirt front and I know I wouldn't want them under my arms. The green tick will find them and use them against me. Other than that and except for the collar (which sounds like a good idea) I don't see much difference in this and what Mamasan used to do to the OG 107s for us.
Everybody has a beret now, why not? LOL :munchin
Edit to add - I agree with QRQ about the rank and unit patches. We always knew who the Boss was.
The Reaper
05-15-2004, 10:17
Originally posted by rubberneck
“The key to the concept is it’s a combat uniform, not a garrison uniform,” said Dave Geringer, assistant product manager for Product Manager Clothing and Individual Equipment.
So was the BDU, when it first came out.
Wonder how long before the maternity version of this "combat uniform" will be available?
TR
NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 10:22
LOL - Diane Fienstien is probably working them on it now.
Since they took out the lower pockets on the blouse, I wonder where the 10th Group guys are going to put their pipes and tobacco bags?
I'll bet there will be an increase in the purchase of man purses and a move to authorize use of same in uniform.
Kyobanim
05-15-2004, 10:25
That was a good one :D
BMT (RIP)
05-15-2004, 10:48
Wonder how long before the maternity version of this "combat uniform" will be available??
They will be tested by MPs assign to prison guard duty.
I was kinda worried the color might be like the AF.
BMT
Jr. FOG
Adam White
05-15-2004, 11:05
Originally posted by rubberneck
...
The shirt is shorter, in order to cut down on bulk when soldiers tuck it in during field operations.
?
Have any of you ever had a problem with too much bulk from your t-shirt?
I can't keep the damn things tucked in as they are now!
Changes? Why don't they start with a belt wide enough to actually hold your pants up?
I think the sipper is a bad idea - zippers are either too heavy or they break. Why would speed of donning or doffing be so important?
Zippers are in and yes, some CSMs have been asking for a "maternity" version. Buttons are definitely out. There have been some discussions about back face deformation from armor and its associated blunt trauma. Velcro is everywhere on the uniform, it doesn't bother me, but some guys think that they are going to be given away when they reach into a pocket for a snickers bar. You will velcro unit patches and even tabs on the sleeve pockets. There are also plans for an aviator syle patch on the chest of the "GWCU" with your name, U S Army and up to four badges.
Additionally, you are correct, it is going to everyone, Army-wide. Silly Army, since they are at war and everyone is getting shot at regardless of MOS, they decided that even the "REMF"s need a good combat uniform. However, the plan is that whole units get it for OIF-3 so that the entire force will deploy with it. This is how it is going with most new soldier system items under the Rapid Fielding Initiative.
There have been some moves afoot to do a separate uniform for ARSOF, but I think this is a bad idea. It will just make you guys standout and you need to blend in with the REMFs so as not to arise suspicion with the locals. I think the ARSOF initiatives were just some leaning forward in the foxhole before the Army got its act together.
And friends, please don't cross post this on Lightfighter. I put it in here cuz this is a forum for real-deal guys.
I have to say that this all sounds a bit unfortunate. What BDUs need are a few small, incremental changes, rather than all this 'the 88Ms want zippers and velcro!' shit. (No offense to 88Ms.) There are many problems with this idea, IMO.
The first is that the BDU as it is is a fine combat uniform, with a few modifications. Arm pockets and a wider/stronger (authorized) belt are what immediately pop to mind. Maybe extra/wider belt loops on the trousers. The lower blouse pockets are pretty useless, sure, but I've never seen them actually get in the way, so it's a non-issue. Maybe a better camouflage pattern (although, an argument could well be made that it's irrelevant if we're sending men to the desert with desert camouflage and woodland accoutrements). All in all, little modifications that many (most?) effective units already make.
But the rest is silly. Knee and elbow pouches so that you can stick padding in? (Nowhere near as effective as real knee/elbow pads.) A zippered top so you can get into suntan-mode faster? (Zipper break/catch/unzip... can you fix a broken zip as quickly as you can sew on a new button?) Shorter shirt-tails? (When the current ones come untucked too easily as-is?) Velcro for patches/rank (Isn't this what pin-on was supposed to be for?) and as fasteners (Which takes all of one brush against a tree branch/rear-view mirror/whatever to undo, versus an infinitely-more-sturdy button?)
In all, terrible idea. Just implement the BDU changes that soldiers have been asking for for years, and quit trying to change shit for the sake of change.
Surgicalcric
05-15-2004, 14:55
Originally posted by DanUCSB
...Shorter shirt-tails? (When the current ones come untucked too easily as-is?) ...
It is my understanding, from reading the articles on this issue, the shortened tops were the BDU top and not the t-shirt.
That is what I meant. The t-shirts, IMO, are fine as-is.
The Reaper
05-15-2004, 15:06
Originally posted by DanUCSB
That is what I meant. The t-shirts, IMO, are fine as-is.
I agree.
Adam, quit tumble drying your t-shirts on "High Heat".:D
TR
NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 15:08
woodland accoutrements).
First an Italian pistol and now French camo? DAMN!
yes, the pictures I have seen of the tops are shorter but not the T-Shirts. There is a new T-Shirt coming along with this uniform, more of a wicking material. I know for a fact it is not Under Armour tho. For one thing, their price point was too high and for another the material is very flammable.
Also, there will be a new BDU cap, it reminds me of the old KW Tailor caps, double bill, pocket in crown, etc. The crown is low so as to prevent "rolling or crushing", of the crown, you know, the bane of the CSM 's existence.
Boots are brown suede.
Camo is a 4 color digital pattern.
Adam White
05-15-2004, 15:54
Originally posted by Surgicalcric
It is my understanding, from reading the articles on this issue, the shortened tops were the BDU top and not the t-shirt.
Ahhh - NOW it makes more sense. Gracias.
Eliminating those worthless pockets will also go a long way toward eliminating that bulk.
Adam White
05-15-2004, 16:16
Originally posted by The Reaper
I agree.
Adam, quit tumble drying your t-shirts on "High Heat".[TR's smiley removed in hopes that the board will finally accept my post]
TR
(I'd put a smiley here as well, but the board gets mad at me when I overdo it.)
It is not so much the heat, but the fact that once I find t-shirts that don't stretch out at the neck and actually fit right, I tend to keep them WAY longer than any sane person should. I honestly don't think I have bought new t-shirts since before I deployed to the desert in 1999 (I bought a LOT, and still have at least half left)! I believe extra armpit holes add character to the garment. ;)
It also doesn't help that various odashees washed my clothes for a three year period - all they KNOW is high heat. I think new clothes should undergo "odashee torture certification" - such clothes could be guaranteed not to burn or shrink when turned in to commercial laundry facilities (imagine a sunglass-smiley here) .
To stay on topic: the Marines figured out quickly that zippers = bad. I have been surrounded by their new uniforms for months now - the thoughtful design that went into them (I LOVE the snag-free sleeve cuff buttons) is obvious. IMHO, take that design and fabric, make the shoulder pockets bigger - for both more storage and the 1st cav / 2d ID sized patches, and keep the same camo pattern. I Marine NCOs can handle seeing two different uniforms - with different camo patterns - in formation for a several year period, surely the Army senior NCOs could support the integration of such a uniform.
I also fail to understand the need for a separate "combat" and normal duty uniform.
The new "GWCU" is going to be it, no separate uniforms for field and garisson. The current BDU really sucks as a field uniform. The fabric sucks, the pocket design sucks and the fit sucks. I like the new Marine MCCUU but I can see where it needs some tweaks. The guys at MARCORSYSCOM have said that even the MCCUU is a compromise between combat and garisson and would like make some more changes. I applaud the Marines for being able to make the cultural change. Lets hope the Army can too. With suede boots and wash and wear fabrics, uniform inspections will be interesting. I guess they can complain that the flag is not at a proper 15 degree cant or something.
The Army plans to switch to one universal camo pattern based on the MC digital. No black in the Army pattern and it is made up of different shades of brown. All of the badges, patches and other accoutrements will be in a light brown color. Still no final word on the material. All of the Marines I know love the material and say it feels like pajamas. The Army had originally planned on going with a 50/50 NYCO ripstop (Fooking hot!!!). God Bless 'Em. I hope they rectify that. The Air Force at least got the material right. They are using the new Marine material but in that God forsaken Blue and Grey Tiger Stripe. Plus their pocket configuration stinks. And just to add a cherry to this nice fudge sundae, they have blue suede boots. Some of the prototypes feature tigerstriped soles.
NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:37
I like that new AF uniform. Except for the CCTs and PJs and a few others, what difference is camo gonna make anyway? And the stripes will make them feel tougher. I remember how everyone bitched when we got rid of the OGs and cammies and went to the BDUs. I still think the OGs and cammies were the best uniform ever, but they didn't hold up real well. But at least we got rid of that green abomination with the blue belt and that ball cap. They could give everyone their own individual uniform made to specs and someone would still complain. LOL.
NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:39
they have blue suede boots
"Well you can knock me down, step in my face, slander my name all over the place, do anything that you wanna do, but uh huh lay offfa my boots..." LOL
Originally posted by Capt_G
The current BDU really sucks as a field uniform. The fabric sucks, the pocket design sucks and the fit sucks.
I guess that's where we disagree. :) I think the fit and fabric (summer weight) of the current BDU are good. Pocket design, yeah, could definitely be improved. Like I said earlier, we just need to tweak the current BDU, not toss it out.
The Reaper
05-15-2004, 18:48
Better to look good than to be good....:rolleyes:
The current BDUs are 50/50 NYCO, rather than cotton, and they suck in the heat here at Bragg, much less in the heat of the Middle East.
The 50/50 was chosen, IIRC, because it was more durable, faded less, and looked better in garrison because it was more like Perma-Press.
No concern for heat, comfort, and breathability. Field soldier concerns, not applicable to decision making staff weenies.
I liked the OG 107s and ripstop cammies, if they were DXable.
TR
Maybe I'm showing my age on the fabric issue, having not been around to soldier in anything before BDUs. As for the issues TR mentions, I'd think durability would be one of the vital attributes, fading far less so, but still a concern (not for appearance in formation, mind you, but for the maintenance of camouflage), and permanent-press not a concern at all. In the ideal world, that is, where the Army selected uniforms, equipment, and weaponry based on what worked best for the tactical soldier, not the PAC clerk, staff weenie, or maternity-wearer.
As for fabric, then, a question: what would be superior? There's a lot of categories that need be considered. Durable, breathable, cool (I don't see us fighting many militants in Sweden any time soon :)), quick-drying, fade-proof, skin-feel/nap? You can have the softest fabric around, but if it rips on a wait-a-minute vine, it's useless; likewise, the most durable fabric is useless if it chafes/irritates.
surfcolt
05-19-2004, 08:18
Best thing I see, the change in boots.
Being old fashioned, I think work/combat uniforms are that and garrison uniforms should be just that. One universal uniform won't get it. Climates change, and there can never be a "universal" camo pattern/color. I cannot for the life of me understand the requirement for wrinkle resistant. In the old days, the wrinkles in uniforms was a pretty good camouflage in itself. This was once demonstrated o with a soldier in a sloppy wrinkled up unifor along side of another soldier in purty starched fatigues -- both standing against a tree line.
IMHO a combat uniform needs to be durable, breathable and most important designed for the specific region of combat. Return to fatigues or even Class "B" uniforms in garrison ala the jarheads.
pbr549xxx
05-20-2004, 13:47
Are there pics of this new uniform available on the web?
FullGallop
05-20-2004, 17:49
Why not, instead of zippers, just use a double velcro system much like some body armor systems do. It would seem certainly more comfortable with armor, etc. and less likely to fail. Have the shirt panels as they are except remove the buttons and replace the left 2 flaps with the soft velcro side and the single right panel have the harder velcro side. The right side has the velcro front and back and gets sandwiched between the right panels.
Got to talk to alot of Marines this past weekend during their TUREX and they do like their uniforms.....brown boots included.
Ok, so you're patrolling in the woods, moving silently with your team, and you stop for a quick map check. On the hand signal for a short security halt, the team fans out and quietly takes up positions facing out in 360 degrees. You kneel in the middle of the perimeter, reach up to open your chest pocket and RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIP! The separating Velcro shatters the silence.:rolleyes:
The Reaper
05-20-2004, 22:07
Zippers suck.
Artificial fabric sucks.
The Army's product development sucks too.
Velcro has its uses, but not on pockets of tactical uniforms.
One of the best uniforms I ever put on was the old OG 107 jungles. Just give me pockets on the sleeves, issue a new set free every two months and drive on.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
05-20-2004, 22:18
Originally posted by The Reaper
One of the best uniforms I ever put on was the old OG 107 jungles.
Questions:
1. What is the item in this officer's hand? A toothbrush?
2. Providing dental care on a UW mission?
Sacamuelas
05-20-2004, 22:29
That there looks like GEN-U-INE jawbreakin going on in the UW environment. Never seen anyone pull a tooth at attention before though!! LOL
Roguish Lawyer
05-20-2004, 22:35
deleted
Okay, this is just a little thing, but it's been driving me crazy. What's with all this velcro? Maybe some of the proponents out there can give me the reasoning, because I just don't understand. :) Are buttons just that hard to figure out? I mean, hell. Let's see. Buttons: more secure, silent, easilly fixable in the field. Why the velcro/zipper/doodad mania?
--Dan, pet peeved
FullGallop
05-21-2004, 11:46
Ahh........Wasn't thinking about the BDU top needing to be opened to access things such as maps assuming they would be kept elswhere. My bad on that one and then yes velcro would not work there. As for pockets I can see it being unwise there as mentioned.
Bill Harsey
05-21-2004, 14:09
As a knifemaker we have tried using a velcro holding strap over the guard on the leather sheath for years on the old A/F Combat fixed blades. This caused two problems, first is the noise of unhooking the velcro. Second is the problem of velcro hooking everthing else and holding onto it, like lint, plant materials, dirt, etc. This all leads to the velcro not working. I hate trying to clean dirty velcro. Next, are those ZIPPERS made from METAL or PLASTIC? If you get a metal zipper hot and then it touches the skin-you get burnt. I know this first hand from wearing the zipper front logging hickory shirts all the time in the shop while both welding and working at the forge. If your in the desert sun and have to lay down on top of it, your burnt.
I guess that's just my big gripe. There seems to be this drive to get rid of buttons on everything, and replace them with velcro/zippers. Each of which have big problems: velcro is noisy, opens when caught on something, becomes dirty/fouled with dirt/loose threads/foliage, and eventually wears out. Zippers, if they're metal, heat up and can burn; if they're plastic, break; either kind, very difficult to fix in the field.
I'm curious: aside from bureaucratic stupidities, why have buttons been dropped from the design?
What flaws did they have?
Thank you,
Solid
Still had buttons when I was around. We had two uniforms for garrison. The fatigues and field uniforms. The field uniforms were worn in the field. The pants were heavy cotton. The side pockets were large and had large flaps with snaps.
They also came with button suspenders. If it was cold enough there was a set od liners which buttoned into the pants. The only reason I wore a belt was for someplace to carry my genuine folding Buck knife.
Belts may be good to hold up a single pair of lightweight pants but suspenders are necessary t6o bear any weight.
Surgicalcric
05-21-2004, 17:20
Originally posted by QRQ 30
...The field uniforms were worn in the field. The pants were heavy cotton. The side pockets were large and had large flaps with snaps.
They also came with button suspenders. If it was cold enough there was a set od liners which buttoned into the pants...
I have a set of those heavy cotton pants you are speaking of and the liner as well. They were my father's. I will see if I can find them in all of my stuff before I ship and take a pic...
James D
Bill Harsey
05-21-2004, 19:25
Suspenders??? In logging terms they are called "Tail Holdts", "Guy Lines" or "Braces". Anyone showing up to work on a logging side in the Northwest wearing a belt was sent home because they were too green to work in the woods. There are still some very good suspenders made for loggers and timber cutters, they are stiffer so they can hold up more especially when your rigging pants are frozen solid and covered with ice and snow. These "tailholdt" to buttons. just a sec, I'll get my pair hanging up behind me...no brand name on 'em but I can find out down at the rigging shop. Very well made.
Bill, how big are the buttonholes on those braces?
Bill Harsey
05-21-2004, 22:11
They are still on the desk here, the total length of the buttonhole seems to be right at one inch. The "buttonhole" is comprised of a 1/4 inch punched hole at the bottom with a slit making up the rest of the total length. These are made of good leather attached to a short "belt" type length that's adjustable in the front. This in turn is heavily stitched to the stout but little bit stretchy suspender material. These suspenders are sold in sizes (lengths). They also have nice chrome plated D rings in the front at the top of the leather for hanging the signal whistle and measuring tape from. These are the favorite of Timber Cutters out here, and it has to be first rate rigging for them to use it. Oh yeah, total of four attachment points in the front, two in the back.
optactical
06-13-2004, 07:34
Velcro=noisy
zippers=prone to failure
50/50=I grew up with it, but when issued 100% cottons for Ranger school I swore someone (a REMF gear guru of sorts) who drives a desk drove that replacement decision.
Marpat Uniform=great idea, but it is winter weight, anyone here ever patrol in a rainy environment with winters on? Bad idea. It's like the Marines had the perfect concept up till it left for the manufacturer and they let them choose the fabric. Plus that velcro on the tops NEEDS to disappear, who the fuck thought of that?
Shirt tucking in=I'm 67" tall, I wear a ML top, I have never had tuck in problems. People who have blind faith in BDU sizing charts have these problems, if they realized your top doesn't fit you right if you extend your arms and your sleeves aren't to your wrists, then they wouldn't even have had to mention this. Faith in your equipment is one thing when it comes to a chute someone packed, but a little personal initiative in Clothing Sales can alleviate this idiocy. Try on your clothes before you buy them, and do it properly.
Sterile Uniform=maybe I have been gone from the Regular Army for too long, but aren't BDUs with all the bells and whistles sewn on just for opening and closing ceremonies downrange, changes of command and shitbird REMFs who want everyone to know they went to Air Assault School? :D
brownapple
06-13-2004, 09:54
In the late 70s and early 80s, the Army had the best uniforms they have ever had...
The Class B uniform was the TW, and that was a good looking and comfortable uniform, ideal for garrison (non-training or motor pool) wear.
There were still OG-107s and the various versions of the Camouflage Jungle fatiques around... they couldn't be beat in hot weather.
And the field pants and wool shirts were still around for wear in cold weather.
Seems to me that there are a whole bunch of very smart suggestions on this board.
One, Velcro is a no-go. Two, zippers are a no-go. If buttons are a problem, then some other closure system needs to be provided.
Combat uniforms need minimum identifying marks. Name and US Army are required by the conventions. The US Flag may be useful. Rank may be needed in some units. That's it.
Suspenders (braces) make sense, and we should be using them. We should also be using a "rigger" belt as standard issue.
The Jungles were the best designed uniform we have had (no great surprise, they were a modification of the jump uniform of WWII designed by Yarborough). Color modification probably makes sense (why not place rank on a tab in the front of the uniform, just like the Gore-tex jacket?). Shoulder pockets definitely make sense (return to the slant pockets of the Yarborough design eliminates the issues about getting into the pockets under body armor).
Different weight and design uniforms are needed for different climates. That is a simple fact. No uniform is going to work in the jungles of Panama, the mountains of Afghanistan and the snows of Norway.
I couldn't agree more Green Hat. Actually I thought the Class "A" and Class "B" khaki uniforms with bloused boots were the best looking. The problem was they looked like shit as soon as the starch broke down, thus making the TW more practical.:)
BTW: Can you get me a set of Thai Wings and foureger (spelling)?
NousDefionsDoc
06-13-2004, 10:23
Know what's funny? All they have to do is check what the troops are doing to their uniforms after a year in each AO to see what they need. The SP/4 mafia and Spec Ops guys fix their own kit and it works.
I agree about the suspenders, I just ordered a set from HSGI because the Eggroll med leg panels was pulling my pants down. picking them up this PM.
brownapple
06-13-2004, 18:17
Originally posted by QRQ 30
I couldn't agree more Green Hat. Actually I thought the Class "A" and Class "B" khaki uniforms with bloused boots were the best looking. The problem was they looked like shit as soon as the starch broke down, thus making the TW more practical.:)
BTW: Can you get me a set of Thai Wings and foureger (spelling)?
Which set of wings? The "chang" wings (since you mentioned the fouragar, I assume that is the appropriate set)?
I'll have to check, but I would think I can get them up in Lopburi.
Team Sergeant
06-13-2004, 18:27
Thai wings:
optactical
06-13-2004, 21:39
I can get you a set very easily, I work every day with about 150 dudes who have been awarded them. PM me some info and I'll see what I can do in the meantime.
Now back to your unrelated thread....:cool:
brownapple
06-14-2004, 00:17
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Thai wings:
TS,
You do realize that the Thais have a pretty extensive collection of different jump wings, don't you?
brownapple
06-14-2004, 00:20
.
brownapple
06-14-2004, 00:26
.
TS displayed the type I had. CRS if there was a Master version. The Foureger had three or four elephant heads atr the end. I have oprders, but I don't think it specifies the type of wings. Are they pculiar th the RTSF?
brownapple
06-14-2004, 05:19
Originally posted by QRQ 30
TS displayed the type I had. CRS if there was a Master version. The Foureger had three or four elephant heads atr the end. I have oprders, but I don't think it specifies the type of wings. Are they pculiar th the RTSF?
The cord is only for master "Erawan" (the three-headed elephant) wings, I think. I'll check. Anyway, I (or Jim) should be able to pick a set up next time we're in Lopburi.
Team Sergeant
06-14-2004, 07:15
Originally posted by Greenhat
TS,
You do realize that the Thais have a pretty extensive collection of different jump wings, don't you?
GH
They may have, but the ones I posted are the only ones I have seen active duty USSF wearing on their uniforms.
TS
I believe they may be RTASF Wings. My orders are from the Thai SWC and signed by Gen Tien Chai himself -- counterpart to Gen Yarborough. They included the foureger. a I also have DA authorization to wear them I also have Laotian wings but never got them approved by DA. You can only wear one foreign badge and the Thai Wings are the purtiest.
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
GH
They may have, but the ones I posted are the only ones I have seen active duty USSF wearing on their uniforms.
TS
Ghostrider
06-14-2004, 10:07
Here's an article and the image.
Army gets new combat uniform
By Sgt. 1st Class Marcia Triggs
June 14, 2004
WASHINGTON (Army News Service, June 14, 2004) - The Army will be fielding a new combat uniform designed by NCOs and tested by Stryker Brigade Soldiers in Iraq since October.
On the Army's 229th birthday, senior leadership introduced the Army Combat Uniform during a Pentagon cake-cutting ceremony. Soldiers were on display, suited-up in the wrinkle-free uniform with a digitized camouflage pattern.
Three different versions of the ACU have been developed, and more than 10,000 uniforms have been produced and dragged through the sand in Iraq and at Army training centers. Even more are on American production lines to be issued by April 2005 to Soldiers in deploying units. Fielding to the total Army should be complete by December 2007, said officials from the Program Executive Office, known as PEO Soldier.
There were 20 changes made to the uniform, to include removing the color black and adapting the digital print from the Marine Corps uniform to meet the needs of the Army, said Sgt. 1st Class Jeff Myhre, the Clothing and Individual Equipment noncommissioned officer in charge.
Black is no longer useful on the uniform because it is not a color commonly found in nature. The drawback to black is that its color immediately catches the eye, he added.
"The color scheme in the ACU capitalizes on the environments that we operate in," Myhre said. "The current colors on the ACU are green-woodland, grey-urban environments and sand brown-desert. The pattern is not a 100-percent solution in every environment, but a good solution across the board."
"This isn't about a cosmetic redesign of the uniform," said Col. John Norwood, the project manager for Clothing and Individual Equipment. "It's a functionality change of the uniform that will improve the ability of Soldiers to execute their combat mission."
Every change was made for a reason. The bottom pockets on the jacket were removed and placed on the shoulder sleeves so Soldiers can have access to them while wearing body armor. The pockets were also tilted forward so that they are easily accessible. Buttons were replaced with zippers that open from the top and bottom to provide comfort while wearing armor.
Patches and tabs are affixed to the uniform with Velcro to give the wearer more flexibility and to save the Soldier money, Myhre said. Soldiers can take the name-tapes and patches off their uniforms before laundering, which will add to the lifecycle of the patches. Also the cost to get patches sewn on will be eliminated, he added.
The ACU will consist of a jacket, trousers, moisture wicking t-shirt and the brown combat boots. It will replace both versions of the BDU and the desert camouflage uniform. The black beret will be the normal headgear for the ACU, but there is a matching patrol cap to be worn at the commander's discretion.
At $88 per uniform, about $30 more than the BDU, Soldiers will eventually reap gains in money and time by not having to take uniforms to the cleaners or shine boots.
The life of the ACU began in January 2003 when PEO Soldier teamed with Myhre, Master Sgt. Alex Samoba and Staff Sgt. Matt Goodine - from the 1st Stryker Brigade, Fort Lewis, Wash.
The team looked at a number of uniforms and took the best part of each uniform and combined it into one. They built their first prototype and delivered 25 uniforms to Stryker squads at the National Training Center. After listening to their comments, the team went back to the lab and created prototype two.
Twenty-one uniforms were then delivered to Stryker Soldiers at the Joint Training and Readiness Center, Fort Polk, La.
"We watched them as they entered and cleared rooms, as they carried their rucksack and all of the things they had to be able to do in the uniform, and then we came up with prototype three," Myhre said.
Two issues of the third version were given to the Stryker Soldiers deploying to Iraq. Three months ago, Myhre was among a team who visited Iraq to get more feedback from Soldiers.
"We would talk to Soldiers right after they had completed a mission while the benefits of the uniform were still fresh in their minds. We wanted to know how did the uniform help the mission."
Sgt. Maj. of the Army Kenneth Preston is one of the ACU's biggest supporters. He said major command sergeants major had a chance to see the uniform and give advice toward the final version.
"We have not made a major change to our uniforms since the BDUs (battle dress uniforms) were introduced in the early 1980s," Preston said. "This new uniform performs well in multiple environments. Its new pockets and color designs are a result of feedback from Soldiers in combat. Every modification made on the uniform was designed with a specific purpose and not just for the sake of change."
Uniform changes include:
1. Mandarin collar that can be worn up or down
2. Rank insignia centered on the front of the blouse
3. Velcro for wearing unit patch, skill tabs and recognition devices
4. Zippered front closure
5. Elbow pouch for internal elbow pad inserts
6. Knee pouch for internal knee pad inserts
7. Draw string leg cuff
8. Tilted chest pockets with Velcro closure
9. Three-slot pen pocket on bottom of sleeve
10. Velcro sleeve cuff closure
11. Shoulder pockets with Velcro
12. Forward tilted cargo pockets
13. Integrated blouse bellows for increased upper body mobility
14. Integrated Friend or Foe Identification Square on both left and right shoulder pocket flap.
15. Bellowed calf storage pocket on left and right leg
16. Moisture-wicking desert tan t-shirt
17. Patrol Cap with double thick bill and internal pocket
18. Improved hot-weather desert boot or temperate-weather desert boot
19. Two-inch, black nylon web belt
20. Moisture-wicking socks
The Reaper
06-14-2004, 10:15
With all due respect, the SMA is a tanker and a leg, IIRC.
What the heck does he know about field uniforms for a grunt?
That is one HOT and uncomfortable looking uniform.
I sentence the SMA to don one with full infantry kit and move through the old Jungle Warfare School area in Panama (or on foot patrol in Iraq) hard and fast for several summer days.
Then let's see how he likes it.
TR
Ghostrider
06-14-2004, 10:36
Originally posted by The Reaper
With all due respect, the SMA is a tanker and a leg, IIRC.
What the heck does he know about field uniforms for a grunt?
That is one HOT and uncomfortable looking uniform.
I sentence the SMA to don one with full infantry kit and move through the old Jungle Warfare School area in Panama (or on foot patrol in Iraq) hard and fast for several summer days.
Then let's see how he likes it.
TR
Reaper sir, you are correct the SMA is a tanker.....and I agree with you. The Mandarin collar just looks hot, zippers break, and velcro is noisy/gets clogged up.(as mentioned before) Seems like alot of time and expense went into this in order to justify someone's job in the DA.....it could be worse I suppose. It could be blue tiger stripe!:eek:
Sounds like a joke. What's hot, constrictive, noisy, expensive, and designed by a committee for the lowest common denominator? Actually, that's not too funny--it's Joe on the sharp end that's going to get the punchline. :rolleyes:
Here's to hoping for an OICW-like small fanfare and then quiet death? :rolleyes:
DunbarFC
06-14-2004, 12:29
That's one miserable looking fellow there showing off the new uniform.
Originally posted by DunbarFC
That's one miserable looking fellow there showing off the new uniform.
That fellow is miserable through his own fault. That's the Clothing and Individual Equipment NCOIC, or so sayeth the article. :D
More photos of the goofy-looking fellow here (http://www4.army.mil/news/article.php?story=6042) (scroll to the bottom of the page).
DunbarFC
06-14-2004, 14:02
Back in the late 90's I worked for Arthur D. Little and they did a lot of work for Natick labs so I got to see all the odd things they were working on
They tried to get me to volunteer to test some new survival suit out in the desert for a week because I was "the right height"
I declined
Shouldn't the target on the sternum be bright orange or lime? It should also glow in the dark.:D
brownapple
06-14-2004, 17:56
Well, the boots look OK....
Ghostrider
06-14-2004, 18:20
Originally posted by Greenhat
Well, the boots look OK....
I don't know if those are the Belleville 790 deserts or the Wellco version....but at least they are both good boots.....as for the rest of the new uniform, I guess we'll be finding out soon.:munchin
NousDefionsDoc
06-14-2004, 18:40
Originally posted by Ghostrider
Reaper sir, you are correct the SMA is a tanker.....and I agree with you. The Mandarin collar just looks hot, zippers break, and velcro is noisy/gets clogged up.(as mentioned before) Seems like alot of time and expense went into this in order to justify someone's job in the DA.....it could be worse I suppose. It could be blue tiger stripe!:eek:
The collar is designed to keep track grease from running down the wearer's neck in warm weather. Zippers are less likely to foul the road wheels than buttons. Velcro cannot be heard over the gnashing sound of the monstrosity's engine - no matter how you grip it and rip it. Blue tiger stripe was considered and rejected - blue clashes with the pollutive exhaust fumes emitted from the machine that shall not be named and its too hard to tell whether the crew is cyanotic from breathing that crap that comes from the exhaust or if they just fell asleep reading Dune again.
All in all, not a bad tanker boy suit. Two thumbs up.
Ghostrider
06-14-2004, 19:03
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The collar is designed to keep track grease from running down the wearer's neck in warm weather. Zippers are less likely to foul the road wheels than buttons. Velcro cannot be heard over the gnashing sound of the monstrosity's engine - no matter how you grip it and rip it. Blue tiger stripe was considered and rejected - blue clashes with the pollutive exhaust fumes emitted from the machine that shall not be named and its too hard to tell whether the crew is cyanotic from breathing that crap that comes from the exhaust or if they just fell asleep reading Dune again.
All in all, not a bad tanker boy suit. Two thumbs up.
LMAO....that's classic NDD! Btw, crews usually don't fall asleep from reading Dune, they usually fall asleep waiting for everyone else to catch up with them....;)
Of course, crews in said unamed vehicle will probably still be wearing the NOMEX CVCUs anyway....unless they come out with it in the new pattern....
Kinda off topic... but I must insist that my liability does NOT include uncommanded de-pantzing from the employment of my gear. :D
egg
Wouldn't the mandarin collar help in some environments, such as in a sandstorm, etc.? I don't think it has to be worn up, but it's a nice alternative to the old bdus where you buttoned the top and hoped it held up...
The rest of the uniform, I'm not too keen on. I recall being gigged for wearing uniforms that light in the past...
mffjm8509
06-22-2004, 17:04
Too many bad ideas with this uniform to comment on in this uniform, the worst of all is the price.
We'll now expect Joe to fork out 30 bucks more per set than the already overpriced uniform (anyone remember getting OD107s off the CIF truck at Bragg for 8 bucks a set?). Its supposed to save him money? how much will it cost to sew velcro on the back of all nametapes, rank, wings, ect. I'm sure most CSMs wont let Joe get away with only haveing one set of these and rotating from uniform to uniform.......
What is it with high priced uniforms that are supposed to be better for everyone? How about that APFT? Theres somone looking out for the little guy. I've now got a jacket and pants that are too warm to run in so they are used for an occasional formation, and then hung back in the locker to collect dust........
I sure hope I can make it to the wear out date on the current BDUs before I retire!
mp
VMI_Marine
06-28-2004, 07:41
Originally posted by Ghostrider
3. Velcro for wearing unit patch, skill tabs and recognition devices
Unit patches and skill tabs don't make a damn bit of difference in a fight ("Really!?"), but good luck convincing the badge hunters to give up wearing their knick-knacks on their cammies. This seems like a good compromise.
5. Elbow pouch for internal elbow pad inserts
6. Knee pouch for internal knee pad inserts
Personally, I liked wearing isomat kneepads inside the pockets on my MCCUU's, I thought they were far more comfortable while patrolling or climbing than the Altas. The drawback there is increased wear on the fabric at the knees.
8. Tilted chest pockets with Velcro closure
IMO, the US military is so enamored with the IBA and SAPI that chest pockets are a moot point anywhere other than garrison. That's why I like the velcro closures on the MCCUUs, I can get to my ID card easily in garrison, and I never use the chest pockets in the field.
9. Three-slot pen pocket on bottom of sleeve
That actually sounds like a pretty good idea, depending on how well they carry it off.
10. Velcro sleeve cuff closure
This is the first feature listed that I will actually come out and say is not such a good idea. This is begging for Murphy to swing into action and snag some guy's cuff while on patrol, producing the characteristic RRRIIIIIIIIIP.
11. Shoulder pockets with Velcro
Yeah, should've gone with the buttons. It can be a PITA to close, but you're going to use these pockets in a tactical environment, so go for the quieter solution.
15. Bellowed calf storage pocket on left and right leg
I like.
16. Moisture-wicking desert tan t-shirt
It's about time somebody woke up. I think the Marine Corps may be taking steps to ban Underarmour Shirts.
Overall, I think it's a good move. I hope they change the color scheme from what is shown in the picture, though.
Smokin Joe
07-12-2004, 09:55
I didn't see this posted earlier but here is an overview.
Its a PDF file so it takes some time to load.
New BDU (https://peosoldier.army.mil/images/ACU_Factsheet.pdf)
FWIW, the SMA came and talked to a smattering of units at my post. I was able to fondle.. yes, fondle, the new uniform.
In all honesty, I can't wait for this to show up so I can get it. It's not perfect, but it sure is a better answer for what is needed as a uniform. Looks like I'll be getting one sooner than everyone else..
Yaay. Stryker. :rolleyes:
Here is the latest in Canadian Combats (not that your not familar with it I'm sure).
Center and bottom drawsting
Inside velcro pocket (ie ID)
Cargo Pants have sand traps and velcro front pockets with large leg pockets with buttons.
Only complaint is that there should be pockets along the sleeves.
Not sure what the fabric is off hand
Later generation of the pants and shirt have an overlap of fabric covering the pocket buttons.
Name tag and flag is velcro, rank is a slip on.
Cuffs are buttons.
Also keep in mind that this is the standard across the whole army, whether they are logistics or ground pounders.
http://image1.lightbox7.com/scoobienewbie/dsc00475.jpg
http://image1.lightbox7.com/scoobienewbie/dsc00476.jpg
http://image1.lightbox7.com/scoobienewbie/dsc00477.jpg
Sorry for the bad quality.
Desert Fox
08-18-2004, 20:44
more pics
NousDefionsDoc
08-30-2004, 19:45
I was watching the History Channel the other day and they had a deal on about the different gear over the years. One uniform that looked pretty good was the USMC OD jungle thing as seen in that movie about the Navajo code talkers.
I'm not an infantry guy, aviation. I do have experience with the ABDU. It's got many features the new uniform has. The velcro will wear out in as few as four washings. It is load when opening, thats not a problem around helo's but I assume it where you fellas do your stuff. The zipper front will dent your chest, and our vest is nothing compared to the load you guys carry. It will just unzip with the slightest chance. I work for the Army's RFI, I have seen it in a few of its variations. The Stryker guys up at Lewis have some versions of it. Some like it some don't. I think most like it 'cause its different.
Ghostrider
09-11-2004, 19:43
Ok, I actually got a chance to see the ACU in person....The color is a bit darker than most photos showand the material seems very comfortable (although I'm not sure of how rugged it will be). I still think there's WAAAY too much velcro and the zipper thing I'm not too comfortable with either....time will tel. :munchin
The zipper should be perfect for you guys. IIRC, its a double-pull zipper, so that way you can keep the top zipped, but leave the bottom half open to make room for your tanker abdominal impact pad (aka beer gut). :D
Ghostrider
09-12-2004, 11:17
The zipper should be perfect for you guys. IIRC, its a double-pull zipper, so that way you can keep the top zipped, but leave the bottom half open to make room for your tanker abdominal impact pad (aka beer gut). :D
:p Wow! Hilarity at it's best.....I guess I know someone won't get to warm up behind my tracks on cold winter mornings. ;)
odoylerules
09-12-2004, 11:47
Is it just me, or do the main problems with this uniform seem to be (from reading you guys talking about it) its zippers and Velcro? There are other things on it that aren't needed (the plethora of pockets come to mind), but they aren't a serious detriment.
Could this be solved by simply using buttons and not wearing badges on your ACU? Just sew Name, U.S. Army, Unit & Flag on the blouse, then rank insignia on the PC?
As for the color of the material, would the darker photos from this website be more representative of the "true" color? Bottom row, first and third on the left, BDU vest & M4.
http://globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/acu.htm
Eagle5US
09-12-2004, 12:04
Is it just me, or do the main problems with this uniform seem to be (from reading you guys talking about it) its zippers and Velcro? There are other things on it that aren't needed (the plethora of pockets come to mind), but they aren't a serious detriment.
Could this be solved by simply using buttons and not wearing badges on your ACU? Just sew Name, U.S. Army, Unit & Flag on the blouse, then rank insignia on the PC?
As for the color of the material, would the darker photos from this website be more representative of the "true" color? Bottom row, first and third on the left, BDU vest & M4.
http://globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/acu.htm
Those are just some of the easiest things to pick on...yes there is of course more.
The photos you are referring to are studio photos without "daylight lighting"-it is the same uniform in all photos...
Eagle
Hi
Stupid as it may sound, why dont you guys (who are currently still in it) speak to Nike or Adidas about making a Clima-Cool BDU for you guys. Seriously, they have the technology and the know how on how to produce good quality products.
Adidas makes boots specially for the GSG9 people and you cant buy it on the market...
I am sure they will go out of their way to help...discreetly...
Just a suggestion although I understand this is the US Army and not a racing team or whatever..
Avtar
What I mean was to come out with a BDU that was breathable and practical for your line of work...something that was light weight unlike the current BDU's which I know do get heavy if you sweat in them or if they get soaked...
Just a suggestion...
Avtar
Hoot,
Lightweight and breathable is nice, but durable is much more important. That's the biggest difference between sport-related gear (sport climbing, ultralight backpacking, endurance racing, etc) and military gear. Someone out there for fun can decide to go home if something breaks or the environment is too harsh for the gear they're carrying. A soldier has a mission he needs to complete by a cetain time regardless of weather, broken gear, torn uniforms or physical condition. That requirement alone is exactly why soldiers often carry heavier, lower-tech equipment than the 140lbs, 2% body fat, professional eco-challenge guru that has a support staff, isn't worried about someone hunting him, and will be finished (and completely spent) after 4 or 5 days.
As for BDUs, a light, wicking material would be nifty, but would snag/tear/abrade away to nothing within days when worn in a soldier's normal operational environment. Additionally, soldiers are often transported in combat vehicles and aircraft, which tend to become big, fiery balls when hit by enemy fire. At that point, a flash-proof cotton outer shell would be much more user-friendly than a highly flammable (and melting vs. charring) set of clothes.
odoylerules
09-13-2004, 14:55
Lightweight and breathable is nice, but durable is much more important.
I remember a few people saying earlier in this thread they vastly preferred 100% ripstop poplin cotton to 50/50 NYCO. I've read that the new ACU will be either 100% cotton or 50/50 polyester/cotton. For the purposes of making a uniform that is first and foremost durable, but also lightweight & breathable, which of the three materials above would you say is best? Or a material not listed?
The Reaper
09-13-2004, 15:24
I remember a few people saying earlier in this thread they vastly preferred 100% ripstop poplin cotton to 50/50 NYCO. I've read that the new ACU will be either 100% cotton or 50/50 polyester/cotton. For the purposes of making a uniform that is first and foremost durable, but also lightweight & breathable, which of the three materials above would you say is best? Or a material not listed?
I want 100% cotton, ripstop poplin for warm weather climates.
I have one set of the 50/50 HW BDUs, and in warm weather (much less HOT!), they suck, BIG TIME. Hot, sticky, and clammy.
TR
Hi
Yup..all very valid points...although I do disagree with the "eco challenge guru"..I dont know why but so many guys have this thing against people who race in adventure races..hahaha...why?
The majority of them are very down to earth people..unlike Mr.Mark Burnett who..isnt very popular in the adventure racing community. But then again, thats a totally different topic..
Good points about why not to use lighter, more expensive materials for BDU's...
rgds
avtar :boohoo
odoylerules
09-14-2004, 12:25
I want 100% cotton, ripstop poplin for warm weather climates.
Would it not then just make sense to reinstate the older, much less expensive (especially compared to ACU), more comfortable (according to most of you guys who have experience with them) 3d pattern jungle fatigues in Army Shade OG107? And for use in the Sandbox, same thing but some khaki shade instead of OG 107?
I've read that 1st pattern jungles were based on the jump jackets that none other than Bill Yarborough was responsible for designing and the further patterns of that were further improvements on an already good design...if it's not broke, don't fix it?
Is there something I'm not understanding fully?
The Reaper
09-14-2004, 14:03
Would it not then just make sense to reinstate the older, much less expensive (especially compared to ACU), more comfortable (according to most of you guys who have experience with them) 3d pattern jungle fatigues in Army Shade OG107? And for use in the Sandbox, same thing but some khaki shade instead of OG 107?
I've read that 1st pattern jungles were based on the jump jackets that none other than Bill Yarborough was responsible for designing and the further patterns of that were further improvements on an already good design...if it's not broke, don't fix it?
Is there something I'm not understanding fully?
Yeah.
The need to sell something new to the U.S. Government, and the need for someone (person or organization) to come up with something new to validate their existence.
This looks like a pitiful attempt by some leg to come up with something new to be stylish, look spiffy in garrison, and be comfortable in the air conditioned office.
I see nothing wrong with the jungles, other than their abbreviated service life. I would us a camo pattern, though, and sleeve pockets.
TR
odoylerules
09-14-2004, 14:18
This looks like a pitiful attempt by some leg to come up with something new to be stylish, look spiffy in garrison, and be comfortable in the air conditioned office.
Why aren't Class B's or A's used anymore? According AR 670-1, a "Service uniform (is) (w)orn in garrison environments when the wear of utility or dress uniforms is not required or appropriate." I read that as they're not intended for formal use (ie the way they're used now), hence the dress uniform. Then the very name of the BDU implies it distinctly is NOT for garrison use.
What's wrong with using a different uniform for a different area? I mean, everyone owns at least Class B's and Class A's, they might as well use them. The only uniform that anyone can be expected to not automatically have would be the Dress (which all officers own) and Mess. Even then, enlisted have the option of Green Dress. My proposal: Field = jungles. Summer, in garrison = Class B's. Winter, in garrison = Class A's. Other = Dress or Mess uniform, as appropriate.
As a famous radio personality whose name escapes me would ask:
"What do you think?"
The Reaper
09-14-2004, 17:00
Why aren't Class B's or A's used anymore? According AR 670-1, a "Service uniform (is) (w)orn in garrison environments when the wear of utility or dress uniforms is not required or appropriate." I read that as they're not intended for formal use (ie the way they're used now), hence the dress uniform. Then the very name of the BDU implies it distinctly is NOT for garrison use.
What's wrong with using a different uniform for a different area? I mean, everyone owns at least Class B's and Class A's, they might as well use them. The only uniform that anyone can be expected to not automatically have would be the Dress (which all officers own) and Mess. Even then, enlisted have the option of Green Dress. My proposal: Field = jungles. Summer, in garrison = Class B's. Winter, in garrison = Class A's. Other = Dress or Mess uniform, as appropriate.
As a famous radio personality wose name escapes me would ask:
"What do you think?"
If you think the name BDU is not synonymous with garrison duties, how do you feel about the name, "Maternity BDUs"?
I do not like the B's or A's because they are dress uniforms, they are polyester, they suck for daily activities, and daily duties would be pretty silly in a tie and low quarters. Having had the opportunity to wear them frequently while assigned to Ft. Leavenworth, I can tell you they are hot and sticky in the summer, and there is no way to describe walking a half mile in Class A's, garrison cap and low quarters, with the temp at 15 below zero, a 40mph wind, and 12 inches of snow on the ground.
The last practical set of Class B's we had was Khakis, and it was a great uniform, comfortable and practical.
I do not know why we have so many different Dress uniforms. I understand that the Chief of Staff has some new ideas on Dress uniforms.
And that's all I have to say about that.
TR
odoylerules
09-14-2004, 18:36
Sir, that's a good point about the Maternity BDU's, one that failed to cross my mind. Even when I was writing about it, it seemed a tad silly to use A's or B's, as one wouldn't want to mess them up some how. That, and I'm not a proponent of any of the Greens (Service, Dress or B's...they serve no purpose by their very existence and are ugly.) I agree on the Khakis and would've mentioned them, but I thought it was extraneous and I didn't want to start an entirely new discussion right there.
I can see what you're saying about the cold weather in Class A's, but are you saying that problem would be alleviated by usage of the Khakis (or BDU's for that matter)? Cold is cold, and it seems the best way to fix that would be the "coat, all weather, black," which I believe (unfoundedly, of course), would look rather sharp with Khakis. Even better would be the same coat, in the tan color used by the USMC.
The sheer number of Dress uniforms in the inventory is somewhat ridiculous. Green Service & Dress, Blue & White Dress & Mess & Evening Mess, the Black Mess for females only. It appears that the new CSA may eliminate all of those save the Dress Blue with Class A insignia and a Mess Uniform, which would be a pretty good move, IMHO, if only for eliminating something to the tune of 8 chapters of AR 670-1.
A further offshoot of this is a few other things that would be best gone. Cardigans, pullovers and sweaters come to mind, along with the Army Service Ribbon and NCOES ribbons. But once again, that is a very different discussion for another day, which is completely unrelated to "New BDU's."
*Hijack*
I too think that aside from the field uniforms we have in the army, (which I think are some of the best in the world,) the dress/service uniforms we have are many and as a whole not that good looking. I think the Army had it right in decades past, but the constant op tempo the Army has, I think its certainly not that important to fix the dress uniform problems right now. I think the CG has plenty on his plate right now.
But I would I say we have too many gull darn gidgets and widgets on our uniform. I have seen the CIB/CMB's doled out to people who don't deserve them and BSM's handed out like candy since I have deployed. I used to wear my first CIB that I was awarded from serving in the first Gulf War. But after this second gulf war, I quit wearing it, or the one with the star I am now authorized to wear.
Here is why: Of the three rifle companies who deployed in our Battalion, one fire team, killed 3 iraqi insurgents, and our single company got mortared twice. Because of this the entire BN, even those REMF's who were unfit to travel north with us, (because of disciplinary problems, and lack of physical fortitude) are wearing them. Even the BC who was on leave when the 3 insurgents were killed, and was not at camp when we were mortared, is wearing one.
My father, actually served in Korea as a grunt and earned 2 Bronze Stars (w/V device), and a CIB. I don't know what he did, cause he never talks about it. I consider it a personal insult to all of those who actually earned the badge to continue wearing it. So I don't.
Many units in the Army, depending on the commander, have no shame, and will stop at nothing to hand out bogus awards. There are regulations for administering these awards, but when LTC's don't follow them, I think appropriate for the Army to step in and implement change
There are too many ribbons and medals and badges and patches and name tags and branch insignia and unit crests and service stripes and combat hash marks and unit awards and on and on.
We look like carnies selling buttons and ribbons at the fair!
A simple classy minimalist uniform, that looks sharp, but is free of all this crap is what we need. If we were to use shades of grey, with black ranks and stripes, and a high collar like the west point cadet uniform we would look sharp. I think grey with black buttons/stripes present a look that is kick ass.
If you need all those badges to make you look like a stud your prolly not a stud. I think we have a culture of I am better than you cuz I have more stuff, instead of a culture of what have you done for the Army today?
Imagine a Soldier who would have to be good at PT to make his uniform look good. We are wrapping turds in ribbons these days.
I am a SSG authorized 5 rows of ribbons and CIB (2nd award) AASLT and Airborne, Infantry so I have the blue cord, and disks. If I can give up this stuff so can others. I would glady only wear ribbons given for acts of heroism or valor, there should be damn few others that are authorized, shit can the CIB's (every pogue in the BN's are getting them now) or at least change the requirements so that only those directly engaged in a fight are authorized.(I doubt that the Army could honestly police its ranks to do so correctly)
And name tags? Well everywhere you go that requires a name tag usually requires some sort of facility ID card as well that must be worn at all times ( e.g. the pentagon) Shit can the name tags.
We would be a much more honest Army if you just didn't have a procedure to award the lies and half truths written by some for awards.
This also helps send the message "An Army of One" by making all Soldiers look the same in the uniform. We should all be riflemen first and whatever MOS you are second.
The high collar could have a US on the right side and a SMALL branch insignia with BN digits underneath, on the left side. Epaulets for officers, sleeve rank insignia for enlisted. A thick black stripe going down the leg on the trousers. I think it would be cool, its a start.
*Drop the Army service ribbon.
*Drop the PLDC ribbon, you got the stripes...enough said.
*Drop the over seas ribbon...you are doing your job enough said.
*Drop the National defense service medal.
*Drop the Airborne, Air Assault ovals.
*Drop the shoulder crests. Over kill.
*Drop unit citations unless you earn them, wear them on the left side.
*Drop the name plate, tacky.
*One marksmanship (MM, SS, or EX) qual badge no clasps.
*One unit crest on the right side.
*NCO rank more apparent by a prominant display on the sleeves, I mean to say larger stripes on the jacket.
True, a change of uniform does not speak to the root of the problem, which I don't have the answers for. But I hope that the uniform suggested sends a message to all of us, that we are all riflemen first, and distinguishes those whose bravery or deeds of valor, stick out like a sore thumb no matter where they go. My impetus behind the idea of a uniform without so many bobbles and bits of shiny things, is a deep desire to keep us honest. When someone walks in a room with a medal on his chest, it should mean something. Lets honor those among us deserving of recognition. But be honest about who those people are. Keep the uniform simple, uncluttered, and sharp.
odoylerules
09-17-2004, 14:56
I agree, dress uniforms aren't very important right now. However, for sheer academic pruposes, I'll post my opinions on the matter, if I may. First off there are way too many things on the uniform, I agree. More on this later.
I also agree handing out CIBs the way they do is ridculous. I've got a great friend who was in Panama and Iraq as an 82d Airborne paratrooper. Says Panama was the real deal, but all he did in Iraq was drive thru the desert. Saw nary an Iraqi, took and sent out no fire whatsoever. Then, all the cherries in his unit who hadn't been to Panama, got their CIBs for nothing. He was somewhat perturbed, to say the least. However, if you have to make sure no freebee CIBs are given out, then there's no way to be sure they aren't, if you know what I mean. I believe it was Sneaky/NDD who once said "I've officially been to war once, and have been shot at many times," coupled with "I was incredulous when they gave me a CMB. I didn't patch up one patient under fire nor did I recieve fire or fire my weapon.
Once again, I agree that the uniform should be simplified. Here are some of my unfounded, NBTNDT 17 year old high school student opinions. I'm not claiming intellectual property rights on any of this, but a lot of the stuff you said I've actually thought up too, so I guess there's more than one of us.
Ditch ASR, NCOES, Reserve Components Overseas Training Ribbon and Overseas Service Ribbon. They're all implied. That, and I remember my 82d buddy got 3 ribbons for Iraq, then an OSR because he was in the desert for 6 months, then 2 battle stars. One for each operation, I believe. Even though he saw no battle whatsoever. Also, the NDSM & GWOTSM have got to go. You shouldn't get a ribbon just for being on Active Duty (they give them to academy cadets too and I believe the National Guard now, even without being mobilizied/activated). Tying into this, no Good Conduct Medal or Reserve Components Achievement Medal (correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure an RCAM is more like a CGM than an AAM). Why should you get a medal for not getting in trouble? And officers can't even get them, that's like saying enlisted are expected to get in trouble while officers and gentlemen are expected to not. No one should be expected to get in trouble! Ditch background trims for wings. Lose DUI on the shoulders, along with CLI period. Everyone should know who their TL->BC are.
"Drop unit citations unless you earn them, wear them on the left side."
I've thought that, verbatim, for eons.
"Drop the name plate, tacky."
This too. They can call you by rank.
"One marksmanship (MM, SS, or EX) qual badge no clasps."
Expert only or none at all, require everyone to qualify for what is now expert.
No unit crest, have everyone wear officer style branch insignia, with regimental affiliation numbers in them.
Stripe size is fine, but no shoulder boards for NCOs.
"True, a change of uniform does not speak to the root of the problem, which I don't have the answers for. But I hope that the uniform suggested sends a message to all of us, that we are all riflemen first, and distinguishes those whose bravery or deeds of valor, stick out like a sore thumb no matter where they go. My impetus behind the idea of a uniform without so many bobbles and bits of shiny things, is a deep desire to keep us honest. When someone walks in a room with a medal on his chest, it should mean something. Lets honor those among us deserving of recognition. But be honest about who those people are. Keep the uniform simple, uncluttered, and sharp."
I agree. The 82d guy from earlier has 16 ribbons, when in fact, after eliminating the frivolous ones, he's down to 3. Four AAM's, an AFEM w/arrowhead and a Southwest Asia Service Medal (no battle stars and only one ribbon per TO.)
I think a new dress uniform should be a lot like the Dress Blues. Blue is the traditional color of the Army uniform, however; a solid black would be very good looking as well. The blouse would be pocketless and maybe full sized medals would be worn instead of ribbons. Pants would NOT be the light blue color of most, but rather the dark "general officer" color. No headgear but green & black berets (for SF and Rangers, not SF support, not RTB). Logic being headgear isn't required with Mess Uniform and I really doubt there are many fans of the garrison cap & service cap. Guys on "SF status" don't wear the SF tab, as the headgear implies it. Belted jacket, sabers/swords for officers/NCO's. SF wears Yarboroughs instead. Shoes not preshined. Maybe aviators wear Aviator jackets instead of the Dress blouse. Other badges to lose: Recruiter, Career Counselor, Drill Sergeant, Driver, Physical Fitness, most of aviation but pilots. Lose the cardigans, pullovers and sweaters, I just hate them. Any medals not involving deploying to a TO (AFEM type, GWOTEM, etc, have to be in battle to get a battle star), bravery (MOH, SS, BS, etc, make 'em hard to get) or meritorious service (SM, MSM, ARCOM - but don't give out ARCOMs to guys for ETSing/PCSing). No Infantry blue (send all males to 11B OSUT before AIT, sorta like the USMC).
And that's all folks. It's worth what you paid.
NousDefionsDoc
09-17-2004, 19:01
Do you guys know why they give out ribbons and awards? They are important in many cases.
odoylerules
09-17-2004, 20:33
Do you guys know why they give out ribbons and awards? They are important in many cases.
No Sarnt. The Army Service Ribbon just seems incredibly silly to this NBTNDT. I mean, you're in the Army, you MUST have gone to Basic. I can see why the MOH and Silver Star, etc are important, but a Basic Training Graduation Ribbon?
But if I'm incorrect, which I assume I am; I really would like to be enlightened/informed as to why they are important in many cases.
NousDefionsDoc
09-17-2004, 20:50
Builds morale and pride. If you're Joe Snuffy the egg cook in the mess hall, is what you do not important? When is he ever going to get a chance to earn a ribbon? The only time anybody ever talks to him is when he screws up their order. A lot of people need positive re-enforcement on a regular basis. Its those little things that keep some people humming right a long. And everybody likes a pat on the back every now and then.
Look at uniforms of various nations for example. The Phrench have very loud uniforms and conduct grand parades. Why? Because they lose all the time and they need it.
Very few people are QPs in the world and even less can draw their satisfaction from within.
The best commanders I ever had were tough, but fair. And would commend as well as ream. They were spare with their praise so it meant a lot, but then they weren't dealing with 19 year-old truck drivers either.
The green Army is different from what you see here.
odoylerules
09-17-2004, 21:16
I suppose I could have seen that coming. Cook Snuffy is not important, though. He is CRUCIAL. I mean, an Army travels on its stomach. Shouldn't he derive pride from that? Maybe I can't get into his brain, but an empty medal is meaningless. That's why handing out black berets to everyone didn't raise morale - they knew it was meaningless if everyone has one. If everyone has an ASR, how'll that keep morale up?
I agree completely with all you're saying about positive reinforcement, pats on the back (yes we all need them, and the way people treat a guy on crutches yeah does make me feel "special"), keeping morale high, I just don't understand how little ribbons and gleaming things and berets so on so forth can do that unless they mean something. Like, a WWII paratrooper asking a SP4 how many jumps he has. When the young man tells him 37, he replies, I have four with a huge grin on his face, cuz he knows that his jumps mean more than all the training jumps in the world. (Saw this one at Bragg on Division Review Weekend, you could see the air deflating from the kid). And then on the other side of that scale, real deal medals getting handed out like candy make almost all medals meaningless. On Magician's website, he talks about Jim Pickering with the 90 in Grenada, only getting an ARCOM then Battalion staff all recieving Bronze Stars.
If so few can draw pride from within, why not instill it in them? Point in case: Rangers know their lineage, live the Creed and say it every morning, you can see pride radiating from them. Paratroopers too. The elite in general. That's because they are brought up to feel that way and they feel important. Why not raise cooks the same? When you arrive at the 91st Food Service Battalion or wherever, get a letter from the BC "welcome to the finest mess hall in the U.S. Army," know the unit's history, what mess halls it's served in around the world, I dunno, give them somethign meaningful to be proud of.
Why should all the great commanders be Combat Arms, Airborne, HSLD stuff? Why can't a QM corps officer be proud that the best Army in the world depends on him to do his job and his unit as well, then treat them as such? To quote from Patton:
Patton: "Where's you're helmet?"
Cook: (laughing) I'm a cook, sir.
Patton: You're a soldier.
Every solider deserves a tough and fair CO, not just SF & Infantry. When you mess up, a reaming is heading your way, when you serve the entire 1st Army in 10 minutes time with a broken stove and adapt, improvise and overcome you deserve a commendation. A 19 year old truck driver and a 35 year old 18 series guy are both Soldiers. Mind you, we both know who is more qualified, but they are both there to close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver.
Perhaps I am a wet-behind-the-ears optimist, and the best way of summing this up is what you said: the Green Army is different from SF.