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Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 15:13
From http://OpinionJournal.com

Best of the Web Today - May 14, 2004
By JAMES TARANTO
Al Qaeda Hackers http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/

Authorities insist it's nothing more than an eerie coincidence, but boy, it is eerie. CNN reports that Zacarias Moussaoui, who is awaiting trial on charges related to his role as the "20th hijacker," once used a purloined e-mail account belonging to Nick Berg, the American civilian murdered in Iraq by al Qaeda's Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. On a bus in Oklahoma a few years ago, he "allowed a man with terrorist connections to use his laptop computer," according to his father, Michael Berg:

*** QUOTE ***

At one point during the bus ride, Berg said, the man sitting next to his son asked if he could use Nick's laptop computer.

"It turned out this guy was a terrorist and that he, you know, used my son's e-mail, amongst many other people's e-mail who he did the same thing to," [Michael] Berg said.

Government sources said Berg gave the man his password, which was later used by Moussaoui, the sources said.

The sources said the man who used Berg's e-mail knew Moussaoui, now awaiting trial on federal charges that could bring a death sentence.

*** END QUOTE ***

Adding to the high weirdness of the whole Berg saga are the strange and confused political views of the elder Berg, who is apparently some sort of far-left antiwar activist. (Reports such as one in the Philadelphia Daily News http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/8645584.htm?1c suggest he and his son did not see eye to eye on Iraq's liberation.) Agence France-Presse http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/iraq_us_beheading_family reports on Michael Berg's sickening moral inversion:

*** QUOTE ***

"Nicholas Berg died for the sins of George Bush and (Defense Secretary) Donald Rumsfeld," Michael Berg, visibly upset, told ABC television.

"The al-Qaeda people are probably just as bad as they are, but this administration did this," he said.

*** END QUOTE ***

Distraught people sometimes say crazy things, but this quote, from another CNN report http://www.fox11az.com/news/other/stories/KMSB-20040513-alzarqawi-cnnbp.1bad661b8.html , bespeaks a genuine and astonishing ignorance:

*** QUOTE ***

Berg's father said Thursday his son was someone who simply wanted to "help people, not to hurt anyone." "He was not disrespectful of danger, he just didn't recognize danger in people," Michael Berg said. "The al Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing. They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down."

*** END QUOTE ***

Does Michael Berg really not understand that al Qaeda is in Iraq to tear it down, not to build it?

The Reaper
05-14-2004, 15:50
I think his father indicates where he got his naivete, ignorance of evil, liberalism, and misdirection from.

I think back to the "reasonable man" theory, as in "What would a reasonable man do?"

No disrespect to Mr. Berg, but it occurs to me that a Jewish kid with no connections and no job wondering around a country alone where heavily armed Americans and aid workers alike are shot at on sight is not acting in a reasonable and prudent manner.

A Forest Gump quote is popping into my head, but in respect to the deceased, I will refrain from stating it here.

TR

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 16:31
The article suggests he may have been more than just imprudent. Perhaps this will draw NDD out of the medical forum during one of his brief visits to the site. The word "Oklahoma" should get him going full speed, I would think . . .

:munchin

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 16:35
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27484-2004May14.html

Ashcroft Says No Link Between Berg and Terrorists

By William Branigin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 14, 2004; 5:01 PM

Attorney General John D. Ashcroft said today that Nicholas Berg, the young American businessman who was beheaded in Iraq, had been investigated by the FBI two years ago on suspicion of a link to terrorists but had been absolved of any such connection.

Ashcroft vowed that the Justice Department would "work hard" to find Berg's murderers.

"This barbaric murder of Nicholas Berg illustrates the kind of evil that we face in the war against terror," he said. "And the United States will pursue his killers and we will bring them to justice."

He made the comments in a news conference at the Justice Department after Berg was buried this morning in a cemetery near his hometown of West Chester, Pa., in a private ceremony.

Berg, 26, was found dead Saturday outside Baghdad nearly a month after he disappeared while preparing to leave Iraq following an unsuccessful search for work. A video posted on an Islamic militant group's Web site Monday showed him being decapitated by five masked captors, purportedly in revenge for the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. military guards. The CIA said the apparent leader of the group, a man who read a written statement before drawing a large knife from his clothing, is Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian terrorist connected to the al Qaeda network of Osama bin Laden.

Before Berg evidently was captured by the terrorist group, he had spent 13 days in custody in the northern city of Mosul after being arrested by Iraqi police who believed his presence there was suspicious. During his detention, Berg was questioned three times by FBI agents, U.S. officials said.

At the Justice Department news conference called to announce an initiative against child pornography, Ashcroft was asked about the FBI's involvement with Berg. He said that after interviewing him at an Iraqi police station in Mosul, FBI agents informed the U.S.-led occupation authority in Baghdad that they had "no derogatory information" about Berg that would warrant further detention.

Ashcroft said FBI and Coalition Provisional Authority officials emphasized to Berg that he was in a "dangerous environment" and urged him to accept an offer to arrange his safe passage out of Iraq. He said Berg refused that offer, as well as government offers to advise his family and friends of his status.

"We did not develop any interest in Mr. Berg or determine in any way that he had any relationship to any activities of terror," Ashcroft said.

Ashcroft was also asked about FBI questioning of Berg in 2002 after a computer password he had used in college turned up in the possession of Zacarias Moussaoui, an al Qaeda adherent who is currently awaiting trial in the United States on conspiracy charges related to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Berg's family and U.S. officials said Berg had loaned his computer and e-mail address to a man he met while riding a bus to classes at the University of Oklahoma in 1999 and that the man turned out to be a terrorism suspect who was acquainted with Moussaoui.

"The suggestion that Mr. Berg was in some way involved in terrorist activity or may have been linked . . . is a suggestion that we do not have any ability to support and we do not believe is a valid one," Ashcroft said.

He discounted the significance of Berg's reported sharing of his e-mail address and the subsequent link to Moussaoui.

"We do not believe that reflects any association with terrorist objectives or activities," Ashcroft said. "It's not uncommon for individuals from time to time to allow computer use by other individuals in university settings."

Ashcroft said he did not know whether Berg ever knew Moussaoui, adding, "I do know that the matter was resolved, and it was resolved in a way that indicated that there was no inappropriate involvement in terror."

At the White House, presidential spokesman Scott McClellan today brushed aside a reported charge by Berg's father, Michael Berg, that the Bush administration bore some responsibility for his son's death.

"My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld," Michael Berg said Thursday in an interview with radio station KYW-AM.

"This is a very difficult period for the Berg family," McClellan said. "This is a time to keep Nicholas Berg's family in our thoughts and prayers. And that's what we intend to do."

The family has asserted that Nicholas Berg was held by the U.S. military in Mosul and that his nearly two-week detention caused him to miss a flight he had booked to return to the United States on March 30.

The State Department has said that a consular official mistakenly informed the Berg family that their son was in U.S. military custody when he was actually being held by Iraqi police. But the family insists that Nicholas Berg himself informed them after he was released that he had been in military custody.

pulque
05-14-2004, 16:57
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
The article suggests he may have been more than just imprudent. Perhaps this will draw NDD out of the medical forum during one of his brief visits to the site. The word "Oklahoma" should get him going full speed, I would think . . .

:munchin

how does the article suggest more than imprudence?

At least in the case of Oklahoma, the putative connection is between known home-grown terrorists and ME terrorists.

I don't know that he had no job. He seemed to be an entrepreneur who specialized in building cell phone and radio towers out of mud and cement blocks in non-first world countries.

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 16:59
Originally posted by pulque
how does the article suggest more than imprudence?

At least in the case of Oklahoma, the putative connection is between known home-grown terrorists and ME terrorists.

I don't know that he had no job. He seemed to be an entrepreneur who specialized in building cell phone and radio towers out of mud and cement blocks in non-first world countries.

Was his presence in Iraq innocent? Is Ashcroft correct?

pulque
05-14-2004, 17:47
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Was his presence in Iraq innocent? Is Ashcroft correct?

I don't know. I'm wondering more about the "Zarqawi Network".

from AP: "Al-Zarqawi appears to be seeking an increasingly high-profile presence. As late as March, U.S. officials said he was not known for making public statements or taking credit for attacks. But in the past five weeks, he has released three recordings, including the beheading."

Zarqawi is said to have authored a letter on February 9th inciting sectarian violence. On March 2nd, suicide bombings at Shiite mosques in Karbala and Baghdad were blamed on Zarqawi. Zarqawi claimed responsibility for the April 24 Firebolt deaths. And now this.

Is his presence in Iraq innocent? Why is he allowed to be there?

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 17:50
Originally posted by pulque
I don't know. I'm wondering more about the "Zarqawi Network".

from AP: "Al-Zarqawi appears to be seeking an increasingly high-profile presence. As late as March, U.S. officials said he was not known for making public statements or taking credit for attacks. But in the past five weeks, he has released three recordings, including the beheading."

Zarqawi is said to have authored a letter on February 9th inciting sectarian violence. On March 2nd, suicide bombings at Shiite mosques in Karbala and Baghdad were blamed on Zarqawi. Zarqawi claimed responsibility for the April 24 Firebolt deaths. And now this.

Is his presence in Iraq innocent? Why is he allowed to be there?

You're missing the point and hijacking my thread.

I'm sure NDD will be along soon to straighten us all out. LOL

pulque
05-14-2004, 18:10
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
You're missing the point and hijacking my thread.

I'm sure NDD will be along soon to straighten us all out. LOL

yes I am missing the point as much as I am missing NDD.

let me try again though, just in case we are truly on our own.

what some here are implying but do not want to say, is that Nick Berg was a part of a ME terrorist conspiracy. He gave Moussaoui his password, but the FBI (being a domestic firm) is not swift enough to prove it.

Michael Berg would have us believe that Nick was not like him, not an "enemy" of America. They all mistook Nick's support of the war in Iraq. The reality is that Nick supports the war in Iraq because his buddies in the Zarqawi Network support the war in Iraq. Its good business for them, and besides, it takes the pressure of their cousins in Al Q'aida in Afghanistan. Nick goes to Iraq with the express purpose of martyring himself in the name of Allah, because even though he seems like an American Jew, he has been converted to extreme fundamentalist Islam. He is not terribly religious, but the terrorists are more likely to buy his radio and cell phone towers made out of mud, so economically it works out for him.

The Zarqawi Network decided that it was time to make a snuff film with him because the abu ghraib prison issue was looking bad for Bush and the SecDef, and they wanted to enflame the world and garner support for America and its war in Iraq, because as we know, they love that war in Iraq.

Berg, innocent? I think not.


NDD please come soon

NousDefionsDoc
05-14-2004, 18:49
I haven't read the links and Iapologize for that, I am simply not in a reading mood tonight. I was talking to a guy today that said he heard Mr. Berg was a converted Muslim and his sister or somebody had married an Iraqi?

I really don't know that much about the case.

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 18:55
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I am simply not in a reading mood tonight.

:eek:

DAMN! What the hell is going on down there? Run out of cope?

NousDefionsDoc
05-14-2004, 18:58
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
:eek:

DAMN! What the hell is going on down there? Run out of cope?

LOL - Not at all, I have legions of Centurions paying tribute on every trip - I am awash in Copenhagen.

I am simply fighting off a cold and have recently become more focused on the physical - a passing phase as my body will remind me very soon no doubt.

I will read them in the morning.

SOGvet
05-14-2004, 19:01
... gents, some things are just TOO coincidental..

Me thinks that something stinks, I just can't put my finger on it. :confused:

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 19:19
How about this possibility:

al-Zarqawi kills three birds with one stone --

1. Silences someone with info on US al Qaeda operations

2. Sends message to other cell members who might think about talking to FBI

3. Terrorizes Americans who don't know what Berg really was doing in Iraq

Hmmmmm . . .

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 19:21
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
LOL - Not at all, I have legions of Centurions paying tribute on every trip - I am awash in Copenhagen.


Treasure bath! Treasure bath!

Roguish Lawyer
05-14-2004, 19:39
Oh, and speaking of tribute:

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 12:54
A kid in the midwest tired to buy a car a little while ago. When they ran a credit check he was detained for an hour and a half because he had the same name as one of the September 11th hijackers' alias.

His birthday: Sept 11th.

What do you conspiracy theorists make of that?

Mr. Berg is dead because he was inexperienced and hard-headed and did not practice good personal security and he had almost zero situational awareness.

hoepoe
05-15-2004, 13:18
Nick Berg, RIP was an idiot, and what Jimbo said...

Some additional info:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/427137.html

American Jew beheaded in Iraq was becoming more religious
By Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent

WASHINGTON - Nick Berg, the 26-year-old American who was brutally murdered by al-Qaida supporters in Iraq, was drawing closer to Judaism in the past year, according to friends.

More details are available at the link above.

I can't understand why anyone would go somewhere like Iraq without being sent there, or to work though an organised company???

Off to watch a movie now

Keep well all

Hoepoe

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 15:26
Originally posted by Jimbo
What do you conspiracy theorists make of that?



Better one detained for an hour and a half than another 3k dead. Or even one more dead.

Don't be offended if when we finally meet I pat you down and ask you a couple of questions.

You keep believing in coincidence and I'll keep being suspicious of everyone and everything - we'll see who lives longer. I am on the Team Sergeant's 0-3 meter plan.

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 17:19
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
You keep believing in coincidence and I'll keep being suspicious of everyone and everything - we'll see who lives longer. I am on the Team Sergeant's 0-3 meter plan.

Oh, I'm suspicious. But after a fairly thorough investigation, I try to see what the facts have borne out and not let my imagination take over.

Berg was a smart kid. Dropped out of Cornell and started his own business. He was well respected by people he dealt with on a professional level. He went to a small business in reconstruction conference put on by the USG. In talking with people there it became clear that he needed to be in Iraq to get contracts. He went to Iraq. He started a company in Iraq with a local. Some things worked out, others didn't. He went home to the US. He went back to Iraq. He started making contacts for contracts. He is consistently described by many as lackadaisical when it came to personal security. He wandered around without security. He would get into random cabs, instead of hiring a driver.

And yet somehow this kid was leading a double life, linking up with terrorists in the US, telling people about it, converting to Islam from Judaism and then allowed himself to be beheaded on tape to the horror of his family. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to not cover your tracks.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:08
Ernest was a smart kid. Graduated from medical school, then worked as a nurse on merchant ships. Never really took to his profession. He went on motorcycle trips, but was consistently described by many as lackadaisical when it came to personal security - so much so his motorcycle quit on him and he, having no money, was stranded. He went to another country because he heard there was a coup underway and he wanted to watch. He wandered around without security and without money. He started making contacts. He walked, instead of taking random cabs or hiring a driver. He was arrested by the police and almost blew the whole operation because he couldn't keep his mouth shut and because of a silly immigration violation. Never really told his family anything.

And yet somehow this kid was leading a double life, linking up with terrorists in Latin America, telling people about it, converting to Communism and then allowed himself to be hunted down and executed in a tiny creekbed in Bolivia to the horror of his family and communist revolutionaries everywhere. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to not cover your tracks. Also seems like a round about way to see Cuba.

Wanna talk about the Jackal? McVeigh?:munchin

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 18:13
That's streatching it just a bit, don't you think?

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:19
LOL - why? True is it not?

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 18:34
Well, for one, I don't recall our boy Ernesto allowing himself to be hunted down.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:37
You sound like a proponent of Hanlon's Razor. I am as well, but I am also a proponent of NDD's Razor:

"Never attribute to coincidence that which can be adequately explained by a lack of professionalism."

Carlos is arguably the most famous international terrorist of all time until along came UBL - yet by many accounts, he was a bumbling idiot. What did he ever achieve, I mean really?

On a strategic level, what has Zarquawi or whatever his name is accomplished?

How much did UBL even really have to do with the actual event of 9/11? Did the ops success or failure hinge on his actions or lack there of? From a purely professional standpoint, how hard is it to kill 3k people if you are willing to die in the attempt?

Che was an utter and complete failure.

There are many more Richard reids than there are Jason Bournes.

Never underestimate the Walter Mitty factor or the depth of the beliefs of some of these people. The fact that Berg was Jewish means nothing to me. I am reasonably sure there are Jewish people helping Hizbollah - there are always are some willing to help what seems to be the other side. That he went to Cornell would seem to be an indictment rather than a saving grace in today's environment - isn't Cornell Ivy league?

How do you explain the coincidence of the email use?

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:39
Originally posted by Jimbo
Well, for one, I don't recall our boy Ernesto allowing himself to be hunted down.

Ernest was set up for failure by competing politics and his own arrogance. His death was a foregone conclusion determined by his choosing the path he did.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:47
The email use?

And if you say "The FBI investigated and cleared him", I'll scream.

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 18:50
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
How do you explain the coincidence of the email use?
The same way I explain the kid whose name was the same as a 9-11 hijacker's alias being born on Sept 11th- random chance.

The same way I explain how the grenade attack on BBC was the night it was instead of the night before. As I understand it, one of the attackers saw a cop and delayed the attack by a night. What if that cop had stopped to tie his shoe, or been called to a robbery or....

The same way I expain the FBI visiting a young man in Gaithersburg, MD in the wake of the DC sniper attacks. It just so happened that he owned the domain 'iamgod.com' ( a particular phrase left by the sniper) and his brother had experience with a rifle and an angry history. There was a number of coincidence, but it didn't make him the sinper.

complexity theory is not my strong suit, but I prefer it to believing everything is a conspiracy. I could be wrong on this, but I doubt it.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 18:57
Originally posted by Jimbo
The same way I explain the kid whose name was the same as a 9-11 hijacker's alias being born on Sept 11th- random chance.

So, a young man whose email just happened to be used by someone with suspected ties to AQ, just happens to go to Iraq twice and just happens to get murdered on video by AQ?

And BTW, after linking up with the husband of his late aunt, who just happened to have married an Iraqi?

I get it now.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 19:05
You could be right of course, but with the stakes, I would prefer to err on the side of the infidel. Just as you could be right, it could also be right that Mr. Berg was the naive and unwitting dupe of a cell in the US planning the next major attack.

It could also be right that he went to Iraq as the cell leader for final instructions and backed out when he learned of the target or weapon.

And it could be right that the FBI rolled up the domestic terrorists that did OKC and everyone involved is either dead or in prison. And that terry Nichol's just happened to get a mail order bride whose best friend just happened to know an AS terrorist.

It could also be right that UBL and SH really hated each other and there's no way they would ever work together.

And maybe Che's foco theory really does work.

But if we decide that random chance is grounds for closing the investigation, we don't stand a very good chance of ever really knowing do we? I get the impression that when we treat terrorism as a legal issue, we are very quick to get the conviction and wrap it up in a nice neat package for public consumption. White hats win, black turbans lose - next.

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 19:08
Your just happened chain of events is wholly ordinary. He had traveled to crappy places before, even starting a similar company in Africa. Perhaps he thought that the aunt's husband could help him make some contacts. I don't not think AQ killed him (but that is a separate discussion that i don't want to get into).

I've e-mailed the FARC. If I roll into Colombia and get killed by the FARC are you going to start thinking that I was a FARC sympathizer?

Team Sergeant
05-15-2004, 19:12
But did you let the FARC use your email and password? Big difference, very big difference.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 19:18
No necessarily, but I will sure as hell want to know why you emailed the FARC before I pick you up at the airport.

He started his own communications company, yet wasn't savvy enough to protect his email?

The trip to Africa was wholly benign? Teaching people in Ghana how to make bricks? The people of Ghana need a white boy from Pennsylvania to teach them to make bricks?

He traveled to Kenya? Didn't something happen to one of our Embassies there a couple of years ago?

Uganda? Yep, that's the first place I would think of for a telecom start up. Lot of rich folks just waiting for broadband in Uganda.

Like I said, you could be right. But I don't expect our investigative agencies to accept the first plausible answer that comes along - that tends to get us in trouble.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 19:23
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
But did you let the FARC use your email and password? Big difference, very big difference.

yes, but it was random chance...:D

Team Sergeant
05-15-2004, 19:28
That retort will only work on the people that watch WWF and Jerry Springer.

I’ve never let anyone “use” my email password. How stupid can Americans be?

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 19:32
I don't know about Jerry Springer, but 'raslin' is as real as SPAM and Rice a Roni cassarole.

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 19:34
We can go back and forth on this forever.

Let's agree on this: healthy skepticism is very good and necessary.

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 19:36
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
But did you let the FARC use your email and password? Big difference, very big difference.
Good point and your point is taken.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 19:42
Originally posted by Jimbo
We can go back and forth on this forever.

Let's agree on this: healthy skepticism is very good and necessary.

Good, we're agreed, I win.:lifter

Jimbo
05-15-2004, 19:46
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Good, we're agreed, I win.:lifter

Did you? Or is this part of the conspiracy...?

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2004, 19:58
Originally posted by Jimbo
Did you? Or is this part of the conspiracy...?

LOL - not in my Loop you don't.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, I have never claimed to see zebras in a horse corral in Montana. I have just seen the incompetency and political expediency of the so called "experts" at work first hand - in several countries. I know most of them try hard, but time and other constraints leads to taking shortcuts - which leads to misses. I also understand we have probably increased our knowledge about this particular part of the world severla orders of magnitude in the past three years. So I fail to see how we could come to conclusions so quickly when we admittedly missed several key indicators and had less than three dozen linguists kist 36 months ago.

I may also be judging the performance over there in comparison to the lack of knowledge I see here by the same agencies. Probably a mistake on my part.

Bill Harsey
05-15-2004, 20:09
I chalk this one up to NDD. PERIOD!

The Reaper
05-15-2004, 21:04
Geraldo agrees with NDD as well.

It MUST be true!

TR

ghuinness
05-15-2004, 21:40
Respectfully, I am watching Fox and listening to the antenna installer. I noticed Geraldo cutting him off mid-sentence.

From my limited exposure to international installations, the installer being interviewed is recounting familar stories. I know guys that are willing to go to countries where their passports are taken until the customer is happy with the installation.

I can't believe I am saying this, but I disagree with NDD.

Roguish Lawyer
05-16-2004, 12:55
Boy, stay off the board for 24 hours and look what I miss!

I think I am with NDD and SOGvet on this one. Too many coincidences.

Jimbo
05-16-2004, 14:04
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Too many coincidences.

I was being nice to NDD because he had a long week.

Enumerate the many coincidences.

NousDefionsDoc
05-16-2004, 18:14
Originally posted by Jimbo
I was being nice to NDD because he had a long week.

Enumerate the many coincidences.

LOL - I've never had that long of a week Jimbo.

ghuinness
05-16-2004, 18:55
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

He started his own communications company, yet wasn't savvy enough to protect his email?

He traveled to Kenya? Didn't something happen to one of our Embassies there a couple of years ago?

Uganda? Yep, that's the first place I would think of for a telecom start up. Lot of rich folks just waiting for broadband in Uganda.



Network security? Doesn't surprise me. Besides, he wasn't in the software side, rather the hardware side. Big difference. It wasn't so long ago that windows default security was really weak. Most hardware guru's view software as an annoyance.

Starting a company? Probably just to get some liability coverage in case of damaging equipment. Most contracts I have seen pertaining to Telecom installation require the contractor provide liability coverage. When working with $million equipment the C class gives one the protection from losing everything. For example: the equipment was pushed off the plane and it didn't bounce.

Uganda? You would be surprised - Yes; plus Congo and Somalia and others. I have to admit I have often wondered who uses these networks when most of the population is deprived of food and water. Yes installations occur in these countries. Yes, installers can be hired for $1000+/day and many are American.

my .02

edited: I need a compiler to find syntax errors

Kyobanim
05-16-2004, 19:13
Where do I sign up?

ghuinness
05-16-2004, 19:30
You can start searching here (http://www.cellular-news.com/infrastructure_contracts/search.php). Title says 1970, not sure why.

I would say it's within 6 months of accuracy with respect to contracts awarded.

Job board on the right. Mostly word of mouth though ;)

Jimbo
05-16-2004, 19:57
Originally posted by ghuinness
I have to admit I have often wondered who uses these networks when most of the population is deprived of food and water. Yes installations occur in these countries.

The parts of the world that have not yet been hardwired may never be at this point. Its cheaper and easier to put up a few dozen towers than to wire a city.

Jimbo
05-16-2004, 20:03
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
LOL - I've never had that long of a week Jimbo.

Alright, then we can go back at it.

To date your position is: There are too many coincidences in Nick Berg's life and death to accept the story as presented.

To date my position is: imprudence and chance were the sum causes of his death.

What other than the e-mail makes you suspicious?

NousDefionsDoc
05-16-2004, 20:26
No, that is not my position.

My position is that nobody knows anything about Mr. Berg and he has been cleared by Ashcroft on television.

How many US citizens have been executed like this in the last ten years?

Of those people, how many had any kind of doubt at all as to their email, their reason for being there, etc?

How many of those had their email used by a suspected terrorist, then went to one of two places on earth where AQ is KNOWN to be?

How many of those had an aunt married to an Iraqi?

How many of those had traveled to Ghana, Kenya and Uganda as a private citizen?

How many of those were picked up by the Iraqi police and offered a free ride home by the USG? And refused?

How many of those were Jewish?

How many US citizens are in Iraq not under the auspices of the USG or some private corporation?

I have seen where he was reportedly carrying anti-semitic literature. Now I have no idea who Mr. Berg was. The only thing I know about him is that he was a US citizen and he died a horrible death.

I also know that his cover for action and cover for status do not fit the current trends in the AO.

And that, to me, warrants more than a cursory investigation by the FBI.

THAT is my position.

ghuinness
05-16-2004, 20:34
Originally posted by Jimbo
The parts of the world that have not yet been hardwired may never be at this point. Its cheaper and easier to put up a few dozen towers than to wire a city.

Respectfully, I understand the technical advantage of wireless. That was not my question. I wonder who is using these networks period. Whether they be wireline or wireless. These are beyond impoverished countries and they are asking for 3G/GPRS/EDGE and possibly 4G networks. Not even just plain old voice - DATA.

99.99% of the population can't use it. Power is difficult at best. All this equipment requires A/C.

I don't know, just makes me wonder. Iraq and Astan actually make sense to me; the installations are intended for the people.

Jimbo
05-16-2004, 20:58
Thank you for your clarification. The answers to your questions are:
2 (Berg and Pearl)
1
1 (however, AQ is KNOWN to be many more places than just two)
I don't know
1
1
2
I don't know, but I suspect there are more than you might think.

Also how does his aunt being married to an Iraqi fit into this? My sister is married to a Turk, does that somehow predispose me to going to Turkey and getting beheaded on video?

NousDefionsDoc
05-16-2004, 21:21
2 (Berg and Pearl)
So the might FBI can't dig a little deeper on two cases? We know what Pearl was doing.


1 (however, AQ is KNOWN to be many more places than just two) By lay people.



I don't know, but I suspect there are more than you might think. Quite possibly, but I'll bet its not more than 25% of the total US presence.



Also how does his aunt being married to an Iraqi fit into this? My sister is married to a Turk, does that somehow predispose me to going to Turkey and getting beheaded on video?

Predisposed? I don't know. But it would make you much more likely, IMO, to have it happen than say - me. And I have been to Turkey.

What I am about to say will piss a lot of people off, but I truly believe it:

As a nation, everything we know about terrorism we have learned in the last 32 months. The exception of course being the pros and the victims. Our agencies, politicians, public, etc., know 32 months worth of the problems. We know even less about terrorism in the ME and on US soil. We don't know how to investigate it (and certainly don't have the patience for the type of investigation it takes), we don't know how to prevent it, we don't know why they do it. We don't know diddly. Again, the professionals being the exception. Unfortunately, there aren't many that know more than we do.

To me, it is silly to expect an institution like the FBI, that has spent its entire organizational life investigating mobs, corruption and white collar crime - to become adept at an entirely different issue, in a language and culture they cannot understand, thousands of miles from their home field, in 32 months. Yet, here we have, less than two weeks after his body was found, an all clear.

The same thing with the Nichols case.

Terrorism and insurgency takes years, decades even, to investigate. Some of the terrorists are pros - they know tradecraft and how to cover their tracks. Yet - "Well, we got 'em all boys, its Miller Time."?

If he was GTG, they should be able to answer all the questions that have been posed here. And they should. They should say "We understand there's some doubt about his email. We looked into it and some tango AC stole his password out of his pocket. Don't write your password down and sit next to Islamic terrs on a bus."

It would seem to me that this is not a priority case because the victim is dead and the perpetrators are known enemies. I just hope we don't find out in 6 months Mr. Berg was the 20th hijacker on round two and we had a chance to roll up a cell and let it slip by. Just like I hope we don't find out that Terry Nichols mail order bride is the sister of the new head of Abu Sayef in 6 months.

I am not accusing anyone of anything. I know random chance happens - I just don't think it happens enough to be the most plausible explanation. If it did, it would be neither random nor chance.

Jimbo
05-16-2004, 21:26
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I just hope we don't find out in 6 months Mr. Berg was the 20th hijacker on round two and we had a chance to roll up a cell and let it slip by... If it did, it would be neither random nor chance.

I made a joke the other day that given all the conspiracy about this, he very well cold have been the REAL 20th hijacker.

Your last point is a good one.

NousDefionsDoc
05-16-2004, 21:47
Enjoyed the discussion.

Roguish Lawyer
05-16-2004, 23:24
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Enjoyed the discussion.

Me too.

Jimbo:

I'll take NDD's enumeration. However, I don't agree with him on OKC.

NousDefionsDoc
05-17-2004, 07:41
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Me too.

Jimbo:

I'll take NDD's enumeration. However, I don't agree with him on OKC.

That we are able to disagree at least in part proves my point. :D

Roguish Lawyer
05-17-2004, 07:52
I am not so sure that Berg and Pearl are the only ones, although I don't have any names to offer up . . .

Jimbo
05-17-2004, 10:11
They were the only two beheaded on video that was then distributed to international news sources.

eyes
05-17-2004, 15:01
..........

Roguish Lawyer
05-17-2004, 15:48
Originally posted by Jimbo
They were the only two beheaded on video that was then distributed to international news sources.

I'm not sure that beheading on video should be the sole criterion for this group . . .

Jimbo
05-17-2004, 16:12
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
How many US citizens have been executed like this in the last ten years?
You're th lawyer, but I read 'like this' to mean 'in circumstances similar to'.

Roguish Lawyer
05-17-2004, 16:18
Originally posted by Jimbo
You're th lawyer, but I read 'like this' to mean 'in circumstances similar to'.

OK, but I'm thinking that the Leon Klinghoffers of the world might be included too. Any incident when a terrorist kills an American and seeks publicity should qualify, I think.

Sacamuelas
05-17-2004, 16:57
While, I grudgingly admit to being on NDD's side on this particular argument about Mr. Berg and his recent past with AQ .... I still have to admit it makes me cringe to see NDD bringing up the friggin OKC bombing conspiracy theory again. LOL

" OH NO!!!, another NDD conspiracy theory. " LOL haha:p

Jimbo
05-17-2004, 17:15
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
OK, but I'm thinking that the Leon Klinghoffers of the world might be included too. Any incident when a terrorist kills an American and seeks publicity should qualify, I think.

2004-1985= 19 years.

9 years beyond the scope of NDDs question.

If we used your definition, I'd be inclined to include the 3,000 people killed on September 11th, those who died on the USS Cole, in Khobar towers...

Sacamuelas
05-17-2004, 17:16
Sorry for the small hijack, Back onto the thread's topic...

Letting someone send an email from your laptop by a person you "have no relations with except for seating arrangements on public transportation" is one thing (still sketchy though).. but giving them your username/password to use in the future is on an entirely different level altogether. Combined with the info already released about his other activities.. it doesn't seem that hard of a connection to be made.

From everything I have seen... Mr. Berg appears to have been a stooge or was a potential stooge for enemies of the USA. Either that, or he was working undercover for the US by attempting to infiltrate the Iraqi insurgency and was "unsuccessful". NOW THAT IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY.... Any takers?

I do not believe pure coincidence in this occasion to be likely at all.

Roguish Lawyer
05-17-2004, 17:18
Originally posted by Jimbo
2004-1985= 19 years.

9 years beyond the scope of NDDs question.

If we used your definition, I'd be inclined to include the 3,000 people killed on September 11th, those who died on the USS Cole, in Khobar towers...

You're right on the date, but I told you before I can't think of any other examples (having not done any research).

I think it is better to focus on incidents where a single American, or a small number of Americans, were killed in a terrorist incident. Not a bombing. An execution or something close to it. But beheading is not required.

This is all splitting hairs, though. Or is it?

Roguish Lawyer
05-17-2004, 17:20
Originally posted by Sacamuelas
From everything I have seen... Mr. Berg appears to have been a stooge or was a potential stooge for enemies of the USA. Either that, or he was working undercover for the US by attempting to infiltrate the Iraqi insurgency and was "unsuccessful". NOW THAT IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY.... Any takers?

Sure. That's possible. I don't see how you could rule it out.

Sacamuelas
05-17-2004, 17:30
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Sure. That's possible. I don't see how you could rule it out.

That may expain why the FBI was quick to "clear' him of any wrong doing in the past... he had been "turned". He was working for our GOV. when he was killed. Therefore, they wanted to quickly kill off all the rumors of him being a terrorists or Terrorist supporter who was anti-US.

In the pre 9/11 timeframe he was a AQ sympathizer. He was ID'ed during the post 9/11 investigation and turned Gov. witness/informer to prevent his own arrest/conviction. The Gov. concealed its findings about him to prevent his compromise to the AQ leadership, and therefore prevent the ruin of his contacts,info collection potential. He was attempting to infiltrate the Iraqui AQ network when he was compromised somehow or maybe just sacrificed for effect by the terrorists leadership.

Come on... where is NDD? I need help making this conspiracy theory hold water. I am not good at this... its natural for the people's medic to think this way. :D

Jimbo
05-17-2004, 17:35
NDD already has a website up on this: http://www.rense.com/general53/911BER.HTM

Roguish Lawyer
05-17-2004, 17:42
Originally posted by Jimbo
NDD already has a website up on this: http://www.rense.com/general53/911BER.HTM

Oh, come on! NDD would do better than that. Maybe not something that would convince you, but . . .

Jimbo
05-17-2004, 17:46
This article seems to explain it pretty well.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/8654371.htm?1c

The Reaper
05-17-2004, 18:02
Time
May 24, 2004

The Sad Tale Of Nick Berg

He went to Baghdad looking for business.
How did he end up in the hands of Iraq's top terrorist?

By Julie Rawe

In a country where foreign businessmen are reluctant to travel even in armor-clad suvs with security guards, Nick Berg crisscrossed Iraq by hailing cabs and hopping onto buses. Usually clad in a baseball cap and jeans, he made no effort to blend in with the locals as he lugged around sophisticated electronic equipment in search of work. His Arabic was awful, and he had a habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In January, during his first prospecting trip to Iraq, Berg was picked up during a police sweep in the southern town of Diwaniya, where "there are supposedly a good deal of Iranian spies who wander over and sneak about," he told friends in an e-mail, adding, "Isn't this starting to read like a mystery novel ...?"

There are many haunting questions about Berg and his odyssey in Iraq, which came to a tragic close last week when his body was found and a video of his horrific execution was circulated on the Internet. Why was this communications-tower repairman imprisoned for 13 days this spring in the city of Mosul-and who had custody of him there? After his release, why did he refuse offers of help to get home? And perhaps the biggest mystery of all: How did a former Boy Scout, who had spent time doing humanitarian work in Africa, stumble into the path of one alleged al-Qaeda terrorist in Oklahoma only to end up kidnapped and beheaded by another in Iraq?

Berg, who was 26 when he died, was one of a small number of free-lancers in Baghdad hoping to make a buck and, his family recalled, do some good. A "tower guy," he figured he could earn as much as $20,000 a month repairing antennas in Iraq, a job that sometimes involved climbing hundreds of feet of latticework in 120¡ heat, according to business consultant and fellow free-lancer Andy Duke, who says he drank some beers with Berg the night before he disappeared.

Berg embarked on his first trip to Baghdad in December. Friends say he assumed he could find work the same way he had launched his tower-repair shop in a Philadelphia suburb: by cold-calling potential clients and sweet-talking his way into assignments. He came home in February to West Chester, Pa., with some promising leads as well as rich tales of his adventures in the war-scarred land. "He had a comfort level in Iraq that is beyond our comprehension," says colleague Dave Skalish, a technical supervisor at a Philadelphia radio station.

Berg's innocence got him into trouble. He apparently didn't know to avoid getting an Israeli stamp in his passport when he traveled to Israel en route to Baghdad. By the time he was picked up by Iraqi police at a Mosul checkpoint in March, rumors circulated among his associates that Berg, who was Jewish, was working for a telecom firm with ties to Israel, according to a security contractor in Iraq.

During his detention in an Iraqi prison, Berg was interviewed three times by the FBI, which sent agents to question his family in Pennsylvania. It wasn't his first encounter with the bureau, which had investigated a possible link between him and Zacarias Moussaoui, the al-Qaeda follower awaiting trial for suspected ties to the Sept. 11 hijackers. In 1999, during the semester Berg spent at the University of Oklahoma, he let an acquaintance access his e-mail account. Berg's user name and password subsequently got passed around and was used by an associate of Moussaoui's, who in 2001 enrolled in the nearby Norman flight school. But when the FBI interviewed Berg in 2002, agents determined that he had no connection to Moussaoui's associate. "It turned out to be a total coincidence," says a Justice Department official.

When notified that Berg had been picked up in Mosul, the FBI might have wondered if its original assessment was wrong. After conducting a "thorough review of records," the agents decided once again that he was harmless-and possibly in danger.

Berg wasn't released until April 6, a day after his parents filed a federal lawsuit against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, claiming that their son had been transferred to U.S. military custody and was being detained without probable cause. Berg's father Michael, a staunch antiwar activist, now blames the Administration for his son's death while the U.S. military continues to deny it ever had custody of Berg. After he was released, the U.S. consulate offered to arrange for him to fly out of Baghdad, but he refused. Instead, he told friends and family that he planned to drive to Kuwait or Turkey. On April 10, he checked out of Baghdad's Al-Fanar Tower Hotel, suitcase in hand, and disappeared. U.S. soldiers found his decapitated body a month later.

Last week a video was posted on an Islamic militant website, and the world learned what had happened to him. After reading a statement about avenging the suffering of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, one of Berg's masked captors took a long knife from his shirt, grabbed a screaming Berg by the hair and cut off his head.

CIA officials say there is a "high probability" that the knife was wielded by Abu Mousab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian associate of Osama bin Laden's believed to be the kingpin behind the recent attacks in Iraq.

Al-Zarqawi was nearly captured there last year, says a U.S. official. But the terrorist may have picked a particularly inappropriate victim, a young man who, according to his father, was a do-gooder trying to help the Iraqi people. Says the elder Berg: "They killed their best friend."

With reporting by Timothy J. Burger and Elaine Shannon/Washington, Adam Pitluk/ West Chester and Vivienne Walt/Baghdad

Jimbo
05-17-2004, 21:11
Dang. I was just discussing this article with someone and was going to post it. Especially this paragraph:
It wasn't his first encounter with the bureau, which had investigated a possible link between him and Zacarias Moussaoui, the al-Qaeda follower awaiting trial for suspected ties to the Sept. 11 hijackers. In 1999, during the semester Berg spent at the University of Oklahoma, he let an acquaintance access his e-mail account. Berg's user name and password subsequently got passed around and was used by an associate of Moussaoui's, who in 2001 enrolled in the nearby Norman flight school. But when the FBI interviewed Berg in 2002, agents determined that he had no connection to Moussaoui's associate. "It turned out to be a total coincidence," says a Justice Department official.

ghuinness
05-23-2004, 21:14
I still have a problem with this email-password thing.
1999 - roaming and downloading data on a laptop in a bus in rural OKC. :rolleyes:


Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:08 p.m. EDT
Jayna Davis Dissects Berg-Moussaoui Links

Was executed American contractor Nicholas Berg's decision to share his computer password with alleged "20th hijacker" Zacarias Moussaoui during a 1999 encounter in Norman, Okla., just a coincidence, as Attorney General John Ashcroft assured the nation last week?

Or was there more to this bizarre development than meets the eye?

Oklahoma City bombing investigator, former NBC reporter Jayna Davis, has been exploring some of the more troubling aspects of the Berg-Moussaoui meeting, especially in light of the role the city of Norman played in events leading up to 9/11.

First, says Davis, the official story which had Berg, then a University of Oklahoma engineering student, innocently giving up his password to Moussaoui is, in her words, "totally nonsensical."

On Sunday Davis explained why to WABC Radio's Monica Crowley:

"You're sitting on a bus. It's a five- to ten-minute ride [from campus to the Airman Flight School, where Moussaoui was taking flight lessons]. How in the world would a stranger sitting next to you say, 'Hey, can I borrow your laptop computer because I want to log on to your e-mail?'"

For the question to make sense, Davis argued, "You would have to have a cell phone, a modem and be online for it to be a logical request in the first place."

The investigative journalist noted also that the FBI's version of the password incident differs considerably from that given by Berg's own family.

Berg told the FBI that "he was with an unidentified man who turned out to be a terrorist who passed this information about his confidential e-mail account to Zacarias Moussaoui," said Davis. Meanwhile, Berg's family insists that it was Moussaoui himself who met Berg on the bus that day.

"One theory the FBI was looking into was that it wasn't just this hapless encounter with an unidentified terrorist on a bus," Davis told Crowley, explaining that Berg "may have known" Moussaoui's two OU roomates.

"One of these men is known as Hussein al-Attas," she noted. Like Berg, al-Attas was an engineering student.

"He's the OU student who personally drove Zacarias Moussaoui to flight training in Minnesota in August of 2001," noted Davis. "That's when the two were detained on immigration violations."

And that's where the story takes a sinister turn.

According to Davis, a notorious individual with known terrorist ties attempted to post bail for Moussaoui's roommate. The unnamed benefactor was, said Davis, "vice president for overseas operations and recruiting for Al Fatah and a member of the Muslim Brotherhood."

"At the time, the Al Fatah recruiter was the target of a full field FBI investigation by the Oklahoma City headquarters," she told Crowley.

Another intriguing twist cited by Davis: Lead 9/11 hijackers Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi toured the same Norman flight school in July 2000.

According to MSNBC, Atta and al-Shehhi stayed overnight at the Sooner Hotel on the OU campus, where Airman students get a discount - but left without signing up.

NousDefionsDoc
05-23-2004, 21:29
Wonder why Oklahoma?:munchin

Gypsy
05-23-2004, 21:32
I don't believe in coincidences myself...:munchin

DunbarFC
05-26-2004, 09:53
This was in today's BOSTON GLOBE

My son's mission of peace (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/05/26/my_sons_mission_of_peace/)


My son's mission of peace
By Michael Berg | May 26, 2004

The following is excerpted from a letter written by Michael Berg, father of Nicholas, who was beheaded in Iraq. It was read at the Stop the War Coalition's demonstration in London last weekend.




It's a lengthy rant but good insight into the father and his agenda

NousDefionsDoc
05-29-2004, 19:56
Updated: 4:17 p.m. ET May 28, 2004

PHILADELPHIA - Documentary filmmaker Michael Moore interviewed Nick Berg, the American contractor beheaded in Iraq, for his latest film and has offered to show the footage to Berg’s family before he would release it, a family spokesman said Friday.

Bruce Hauser, the spokesman and Bergs’ neighbor in West Chester, Pennsylvania, said Moore called him to confirm reports that the footage existed and that Moore wanted to send a copy to the Bergs for their approval before its release.

The clip was made during the filming of “Fahrenheit 9/11,” Moore’s new movie attacking the Bush administration, which won this year’s Palme d’Or, the top prize at the Cannes Film Festival.

The Berg interview was not used in the film.

“I was very surprised to hear from him,” the family spokesman said of Moore.

“He said, ’Yes, there is such a video,’ and if they are OK with it, then he will go ahead and release it,” he said.

Moore’s office in New York confirmed it has the 20-minute interview but said there were no plans to release it.

“We are not releasing it to the media. It is not in the film. We are dealing privately with the family,” a statement from Moore’s office said. Moore was not available for comment.

The contents of the interview were unknown, as was the date it was made. Moore’s office did not say why it was not used in the film.

Berg’s decapitation in Iraq was shown in a video on a Web site on May 11, in which his masked executioners said they were retaliating for the U.S. military abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

Berg’s parents would not receive Moore’s clip until they return from a trip this weekend, Hauser said.

Bill Harsey
05-29-2004, 20:01
This is way too weird...

NousDefionsDoc
05-29-2004, 20:07
Just a coincidence, he's been cleared by the FBI.

Bill Harsey
05-29-2004, 20:11
Michael Moore?

Gypsy
05-29-2004, 22:36
No Mr. Harsey, Nick Berg.

NousDefionsDoc
05-30-2004, 08:50
Wonder how many telecom contractors who've had their email used by a terrorist in Oklahoma were interviewed by Michael Moore then were beheaded in Iraq in the last say million years.

Irrelevant I guess, since the FBI cleared him.

Jimbo?

Sigi
05-30-2004, 10:03
Wonder how many telecom contractors who've had their email used by a terrorist in Oklahoma were interviewed by Michael Moore then were beheaded in Iraq in the last say million years.



Great thread. I tried to read every part of this thread twice.

Very complicated and convoluted.

I want to say it is all coincidental but I can't. Especially the F-911 interview. What's that all about???

Maybe it is just the tip of the ice'Berg' when we consider how many Americans (and Westerner's) may be conspiring with AQ.

Spooky stuff.

EDIT: And I am the type who does not buy into many conspiracy theories. I can't think of one that I have believed to date. This may be an exception.