Presidential Election, April 2008 [Archive]

The Reaper

04-03-2008, 15:43

But Chuck, isn't the Dem factor actually the deciding factor as far as you are concerned? Suppose Hillary was a Republican. Would it make a difference for you?

I cannot reconcile any of Hillary's positions with being a Republican. I am having a hard enough time doing that with McCain.

As a Dem, which of Obama's positions do you find attractive?

Is it his "cut and run from Iraq policy", or the racism of his church that he found so attractive for 20 years? The hatred for America that his wife and minister feel? Maybe Hillary's socialized medicine program that he seems to have borrowed from.

Obama doesn't seem to have too many other policy initiatives out there.

He is a gifted speaker, but he certainly has no record of bringing people together on political compromises, which seems to be his principle claim.

TR

CRad

04-03-2008, 18:21

I cannot reconcile any of Hillary's positions with being a Republican. I am having a hard enough time doing that with McCain.

And I see her as being McCain in a skirt and no different policy-wise. so it would seem we are in agreement there, yes?

As a Dem, which of Obama's positions do you find attractive?

Is it his "cut and run from Iraq policy", or the racism of his church that he found so attractive for 20 years? The hatred for America that his wife and minister feel?

I don't think he has a "cut and run" policy anymore than McCain has a "good money after bad" policy. As far as Obama's wife goes - who cares? The Church thing? Who is being voted into office? We have had some SF guys say some controversial things - in some people's opinion but it didn't reflect what the current CINC had to say on the subject, did it?

Maybe Hillary's socialized medicine program that he seems to have borrowed from.

I don't like HRC's program and its mandates. People should be free to choose but I do agree with what Obama says about feeding kids prior to classroom activities. I agree that early childhood programs are the way to go and it seems Ft Bragg agrees with me considering its EDIS programs

Obama doesn't seem to have too many other policy initiatives out there.

He is a gifted speaker, but he certainly has no record of bringing people together on political compromises, which seems to be his principle claim.

TR

Obama has laid out a plan for a number of initiatives actually. You can look it up. I figure his success/failure rate is about the same as Bush's was at the start of his first term.

The bottom line is this...it doesn't matter what he says because the fact of the matter is the fucking guy is a g'dam Democrat. He could be purple and his Pastor could have the flag tattooed over his heart but the fact remains he's a DEMOCRAT and that makes him non-vote worthy in the eyes of some people.

Wouldn't you agree with that?

3SoldierDad

04-03-2008, 18:28

But Chuck, isn't the Dem factor actually the deciding factor as far as you are concerned? Suppose Hillary was a Republican. Would it make a difference for you?

No - Absolutely not.

If the liar is a Republican, I wouldn't vote for him or her either. When George H.W. Bush said "Read, my lips - No new taxes." When he lied and raised taxes - I didn't vote for him either. Let me be clear, with Bush 41, that was the election I went from being a Republican to being an Independent.

I now vote for the person. Most of the time I vote Republican....Fewer liars, I suppose.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

Ret10Echo

04-03-2008, 18:31

If you guys think you have it bad in the mainland, you can’t even begin to imagine how bad politics are here in PR. Our democratically elected (read Supreme Court appointed) Governor just got indicted in Federal Court with 19 counts of campaign finance corruption, conspiracy to violate United States' federal election laws, wire fraud, conspiracy to defraud the IRS and filing a false tax return.

And, just to spicy things up a little more, he's running for re-election on November 08! :eek:

Fiji, here I come. :cool:

That is the Rhode Island standard...:D

Sure his name isn't Cianci?

3SoldierDad

04-03-2008, 18:38

No - Absolutely not.

If the liar is a Republican, I wouldn't vote for him or her either. When George H.W. Bush said "Read, my lips - No new taxes." When he lied and raised taxes - I didn't vote for him either. Let me be clear, with Bush 41, that was the election I went from being a Republican to being an Independent.

I now vote for the person. Most of the time I vote Republican....Fewer liars, I suppose.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

One more thing about Hillary that turns my stomach. I wouldn't want a Commander In Chief that tolerated a cheating spouse. And, I'm not talking about forgiving a cheating spouse who comes to their senses - because things happen - I'm talking about tolerating for years a cheater. When the whole Monica Lewinski thing happened, she said she was shocked and overwhelmingly devastated - When she insists upon this she is either totally naive or a liar; or something even worse - A naive liar. Regardless, she was an enabler. What does that say about a person? If Bill could cheat on her so easily, so often, and for so many years - so could the Koreans, the Chinese, the Iranians, the Saudis and the Russians - Anyone! Integrity, faithfulness and truthfulness are not central drivers for her. Have we lost our minds?

Indeed, if she couldn't control her rascally husband, how will she run the country? And, when she couldn't control Bill and continually enabled his behavior - How would she do on the world stage? The global forces of darkness would be licking their chops...Not good.

Obama is a racist enabler...Hillary is a cheater enabler. Not good folks - that's bad, real bad. I think it is horrible that she can be such a pathetic liar and can still be viable in the race.

It's a sad day for the Democrats...Shame on them for running two such terrible candidates.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

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CRad

04-03-2008, 19:23

One more thing about Hillary that turns my stomach. I wouldn't want a Commander In Chief that tolerated a cheating spouse. And, I'm not talking about forgiving a cheating spouse - because things happen - I'm talking about tolerating for years a cheater.

100% dead on target! That is what bothers me the most about her. If you tolerate that then what else will you go for? Foreign leaders are going to obfuscate (lie) and if you are Hillary Clinton are you going to be "ok" with that? Or are you going to say in essence " No way Buddy. You are selling me a bill of goods."

You know that old saying about you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything? To me, that is Hillary Clinton.

Obama is a racist enabler... I have to ask you about this sentiment and why you think that because I don't see it that way. I'm not even sure what a "race enabler" is or what you mean by that.

I am more than happy to disagree, share your views or argue. I just need to know what you mean first.

By the way, thank you for your sons. I have a number of family members who are in the military and it's not the easiest thing I've done...You know that worrying about them thing.

Cheri

3SoldierDad

04-03-2008, 19:46

I have to ask you about this sentiment and why you think that because I don't see it that way. I'm not even sure what a "race enabler" is or what you mean by that. I am more than happy to disagree, share your views or argue. I just need to know what you mean first.
Cheri

I've heard from the lips of Jeremiah Wright - He's a racist. This guy was according to Obama his "spiritual mentor for nearly two decades." Obama enables racism by patronizing Jeremiah Wright; patronizing - like a customer giving his time, attention, approbation, and money to a store - Such an association shows poor judgment and he has enabled Wright by being in his church and sitting under his mentorship....And, giving his few charitable donations toward his church. Obama gives his church donations where the pastor publishes Hamas writings in the church newsletter. Who knows - It may have been Obama's donation that bought the ream of paper that inked the church's Hamas newsletter...

Yep, a racist enabler....

And, since the church publishes Hamas editorials one could surmise he is a terrorist enabler, too...

Another thing that bugs me about Obama is that we see a guy who wants to solve all the world's problems and for the years between 2001 and 2005 with an average income of nearly $300,000 a year (approx. $1.5 million)... He gave a mere pittance of $10,000 in total charitable giving (my stomach is churning this very second). What does that tell me? He's not a giver - He's a taker. Once he became political he began giving 5% - And, guess where the biggest lump of it went? Yep, to his mentor. His wife strikes me as an ingrate - resentful for having to pay her college loans back - instead of being thankful for the wonderful education she received; and even more, not proud of her nation until only recently - all the while presuming she merits being our nation's First Lady. It's all so disgusting to me.

I'm not saying I'm right about everything - I'm telling you what makes me ill about these people.

I appreciate your nice comments about my sons; but with a Dad like me, wouldn't you want to get as far away from home as is possible? I'm telling you the military did the trick...:o

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

Penn

04-03-2008, 20:08

Thank you 3 soldier dad for putting in to words my confused set of thought on this race and these secondary level talents.
Edit to add
Additional, when was the last time you were so disgusted. For me, it was Carter and the Iranian hostage situation. Which, in some way, is reflecting the same set of circumstances that produces or presents candidates, who will shrink from the confrontation at hand? I am so sick of hearing and accommodating a viewpoint because it would be politically incorrect to openly say the following: Wright and his pupil are fucking racist! And who, if in a position of influence will grant amnesty to 20 Million plus illegal’s , and will eviscerate our armed forces, tax and section 8 the middle class or what left of it to death. There is no f’in way I will stand by and let that shit happen…AGAIN!!!

CRad

04-03-2008, 20:20

I'm not saying I'm right about everything - I'm telling you what makes me ill about these people.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

And that is only fair. There are things that make me "ill" (a very Southern espression:)) about all three. However, racism or race-enabling isn't among my list of grips.

I've sat my fat fanny in church for more than 50 years and goodness knows there were things said that I disagreed with - at the minute I heard them - but more often than not I took something of value away from what was being said even if I disagreed with the sermon.

The truth is that I can recall with any detail 3 sermons out of however many 50 times 52 equals. I remember those three because they impacted on me directly and helped me with my daily life.

Additionally, I've listened to "honored" guest speakers at more military dinners than I can count. Of all those I can remeber something from (once again) 3. It's not that anyone was a bad speaker...for crying out loud, Remo Butler singled out my husband in his speech but damned if I can recall why or what he said. Roger Donlon, Christmas '06 gave one hell of a warriors yell upon receiving his Yarborough Knife. Christmas '99 Ole Mize said
GWB was the one to vote for. I remember it because it irked me seeing as how I was a McCain supporter.

I think folks are getting caught up in relationships. Susan Eisenhower said it best by saying "guilt by association" is wrong. I'll be the first to admit that I adhere to the adage that you are known by your friends. I sent letters to everyone I knew because of President Bush's associates. The main one being Dick Cheney.

So you have a very good point and one that is hard for me to get around no matter how I rationalize Obama's relationship with Pastor Wright.

But I have to tell you that it looks like you are trying to rationalize not voting for a black man. There's nothing wrong with that. I know a lot of good people who feel exactly thatsame way. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It only means they have life experiences that cause them to be wary.

Penn

04-03-2008, 20:33

With all due respect, it has nothing to do with the color of his skin. It is the verbalization of his beliefs.

nmap

04-03-2008, 20:35

I chose McCain; although with no enthusiasm.

I do not trust either Ms. Clinton or Mr. Obama. They each make lavish promises, but say little about how such largess will be paid for.

In a way, I must regard the campaign as tragic. We face quite a number of challenges - a national debt above $9,000,000,000,000 and growing, the flow of funds from Medicare (about to go negative) and Social Security (going negative in a few years), energy costs and availability, and a resurgent China among them. There is no national debate of the issues or the solutions.

Some sources report that a third of students won't graduate from High School; others argue that the numbers are actually less. But whatever the numbers, they hint at problems when our students attempt to compete in the global economy. And what solutions do we see? Other than throwing money at the problem, of course. Nothing, so far as I can tell.

I doubt that any of the three will withdraw from Iraq, campaign rhetoric notwithstanding. The consequences of withdrawing would hit Americans in the gas tank rather quickly. I question whether Ms. Clinton or Mr. Obama would treat the troops well, and I suspect their policies would make the task of our soldiers more difficult. If I'm in error, I will look forward to correction.

We needed someone who could lead, and who would lead well; none of the three strike me as that person. I suspect that whoever is elected will be quite unpopular by 2011. We'll have an even greater need for a statesman. I hope he (or she) appears by the next cycle.

CRad

04-03-2008, 20:37

And who, if in a position of influence will grant amnesty to 20 Million plus illegal’s , and will eviscerate our armed forces, tax and section 8 the middle class or what left of it to death. There is no f’in way I will stand by and let that shit happen…AGAIN!!!

That is such silly thing to say since Ronald Reagan was the last President to grant amnesty to what you call illegals. Are you seriously talking hard on Ronald Reagan of all people?

Look at it this way...Social Security is in crisis mode, right? Wouldn't a few million or so contributors help that situation? The Latino population is young. They will be putting dollars into the deficit for years and years.

Maybe I am only seeing the good ones but these folks seem to have an awfully strong work ethic. Who else would work for less than minimum wage and show up day after day after day?

I have issues with immigration reform since everything offered so far seems to reward bad behavior but what if I look at it as aggressiveness rather than illegal actions? Don't we want the the most aggressive? Lazy boys won't bother. The ones who are here have ambition. It's a trait I admire.

The Reaper

04-03-2008, 20:37

The bottom line is this...it doesn't matter what he says because the fact of the matter is the fucking guy is a g'dam Democrat. He could be purple and his Pastor could have the flag tattooed over his heart but the fact remains he's a DEMOCRAT and that makes him non-vote worthy in the eyes of some people.

Wouldn't you agree with that?

No, I wouldn't, and I do not appreciate you trying to put words in my mouth, and less than polite ones at that.

You find a conservative, pro-military, pro-life, pro-gun, low-tax, free market, anti-big government, anti-socialist, anti-illegal immigration, non-union owned Democrat (if you can) running against a Republican In Name Only like McCain and I will vote for them. My Mom and Dad were lifetime Dems, till the party left them in the 70s. If you are led by Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Ted Kennedy, Harry Reid, Klansman Bob Byrd, and their ilk, you have a serious problem. Trouble is, Dems have painted themselves into a pretty narrow constituency, with many votes being drawn from the government dole, and few believe in what I believe in.

When I can find a Libertartian running against a Republican, I usually vote Lib, despite liking schools and highways.

If the Repub candidate had attended a church where David Duke had spoken ONCE, he would have been run out of the race and into retirement right now. Obama sat there and listened to black liberation theology for twenty years, and never noticed the "I hate whitey", "I hate this country", and "the white man invented AIDS and drugs to kill the black population" talk? I think it would be time to walk out the first time that was said. It would seem that Barrack Obama needed the connections and placement of a large metropolitan black church more than he minded the message. IMHO, Obama is a user, a farce, a racist, an extreme liberal, possibly guilty of crimes with Rezko, and has a lot less leadership and history behind him than President Bush did when he took office.

Hope that answers your question.

TR

CRad

04-03-2008, 20:44

I question whether Ms. Clinton or Mr. Obama would treat the troops well, and I suspect their policies would make the task of our soldiers more difficult. If I'm in error, I will look forward to correction.
.

nmap - this is a quote from a news source. Take it for what it's worth...

McCain boasts on his website that he “fought to extend the availability of G.I. bill education benefits for Vietnam veterans.” Yet he has been notably silent on extending those same benefits to today’s veterans. Perhaps, like the Pentagon, he is resisting the bill “out of fear that too many will use it.”

McCain has repeatedly voted to funnel billions of dollars to fund the war in Iraq, whose costs along with the war in Afghanistan, according to some experts, have already totaled more than $3 trillion. By contrast, the cost of the new G.I. bill is projected to be about $2.5 billion a year — roughly the cost of U.S. operations in Iraq for one week.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/20/mccain-ignores-gi-bill/

The Reaper

04-03-2008, 20:46

McCain has repeatedly voted to funnel billions of dollars to fund the war in Iraq, whose costs along with the war in Afghanistan, according to some experts, have already totaled more than $3 trillion.

I would call that a highly dubious figure that needs some real validation.

TR

Penn

04-03-2008, 20:52

I have hired a fair number of questionable documented employees. It’s not the just the Mexican immigrants that I am referring to. In NYC, as an example of accommodation and around the corner from my restaurant a 5X a day daily prayer meeting occurs on the side walk. I refuse to walk cross the street and be politically correct. These guys are hostile, spiteful, as sure as I’m writing this, would love the free ride to undermine our culture from within.

CRad

04-03-2008, 20:53

No, I wouldn't, and I do not appreciate you trying to put words in my mouth, and less than polite ones at that.

Obama is ... an extreme liberal, possibly guilty of crimes with Rezko, and has a lot less leadership and history behind him than President Bush did when he took office.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I asked whether you agreed that some folks won't vote for Obama on the basis of his race. I certainly know a few and while I think they are wrong for their opinions I am going to continue being friends with them. I just figured you knew a few of the same folks I know.

Is Obama an extreme liberal? Dead on but some folks like his choices. Less Leadership and history than Bush? Duh. President Bush had been a Governor of a large state and did a credible job of it. Did I say some where that Obama was more qualified than President Bush because if I did I was wrong in doing so.

GratefulCitizen

04-03-2008, 20:59

Unhappily, my vote will be for McCain.

It is the political equivalent of applying pressure to a bleeding wound.

It won't fix anything, but hopefully it will buy some time.

Penn

04-03-2008, 21:00

CRad

04-03-2008, 21:03

I would call that a highly dubious figure that needs some real validation.

TR

For crying out loud, T! I said it was a news source and take it for what it's worth. Not to mention the source is ThinkProgress. The fact remains that McCain is not the best friend a soldier ever had and no news source is ever going to validate that fact as well as the soldiers themselves. I can link a thread on why McCain ain't the best choice for the next CINC.

CRad

04-03-2008, 21:10

Crad, I notice a distinct change in your writing style. I have to ask, you represented yourself as long term older church attendee in one post, humble almost, in the following aggressively of the now. Do the math for me will you.

Penn - I am truly sorry. I am a 53 year old church goer. However, I am also the wife of an active duty SF Warrant and have been for more than 22 years.

I was never as good at being holy as my mom wanted me to be but I married really well. Sometimes the life I lead gets the best of me.

I may sound like a harpy and perhaps like I have a grudge agaisnt TR. The truth is I have great respect for him, his knowledge and ustmost respect for his contribution to the SF community. That doesn't mean I have to think he's always right.

In truth, most fellow soldiers tell my husband how sorry they are upon learning he has a liberal for a wife.

Does that explain things a little. Reaper is more able to hold his own with me which is why I challenge him on a few things. He's one of the good guys in my book.

Cheri

Penn

04-03-2008, 21:19

Crad, thank you. I must admit I was taken aback at how quickly you locked and loaded. You are very gracious in answering my request, which I think now; I was lucky to receive. Thank you.

3SoldierDad

04-03-2008, 21:24

But I have to tell you that it looks like you are trying to rationalize not voting for a black man. There's nothing wrong with that. I know a lot of good people who feel exactly thatsame way. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It only means they have life experiences that cause them to be wary.

Wow....Hmmmm....One thing I've learned is that "the heart of man is deceitful beyond all else - Who can know it?"

I don't think I am trying to rationalize not voting for Obama because he is black, but you might be right. Frankly, I have never thought of him as black until it became an issue. Let me tell you why I don't think you are right. One of my favorite writers is Thomas Sowell. My favorite speaker is Alan Keyes. In my opinion, the best Secretary of State since George Shultz was Colin Powell...All my favorite athletes are black....I could go on and on. But that's not it...

The person I most admire on the planet will one day be a black man. The hero among heroes in my life is my 12 year-old adopted son Salifu Sesay Thomas. One of Charles Taylor's thugs tried to snuff his life out with many machete blows to the head - But failed! It's a long story, but let me say he's the most precious human being I know.

You say...

But I have to tell you that it looks like you are trying to rationalize not voting for a black man. There's nothing wrong with that.

If there's nothing wrong with that, then why do you write in such a way that one perceives an objection? If I'm rationalizing my not voting for Obama because he's black then that is objectionable - I object to you saying it is not. I think for a person not to vote for a person because of his or her skin color is wrong - rationalizing it is even worse. Rationalizing as I understand it is like code for lying to oneself - like logically making a false proof.

According to those groups that count the Senators votes, Obama has the most thoroughly liberal voting record in the Senate. Let me be clear, I'm to the right of Attila-The-Hun - That's probably why I wouldn't vote for him even if he were crimsom & blue (I'm a KU Jayhawk).

Is it possible that you have a hard time accepting the fact that someone could be so opposed to a guy that otherwise seems so charismatic and winsome? If anything, I am kind of suspicious of people who emotionally sweep other folks off their feet - Folks that buy before they try do drive me crazy - I have a prejudice against folks who lead their arguments with emotional appeals - It revolts me somewhat. I'm not saying this as a justification; Im saying this to illucidate how I and many other middle-aged guys feel. Perhaps, I'm jaded. However, even as s a young person I found myself loathing people that were popular yet vacuous. I find Obama an interesting combination of nuance and complexity - yet, as a thinker outrageously shallow and as a man of action surprisingly demure. These are tough seemingly contradictory combinations, but Obama seems to be able to pull it off. The Pied Piper blows his pipe...

Quite amazing.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

Penn

04-03-2008, 22:00

I do not think he is unintelligent, but rather gifted and extremely bright. So much so, that I believe he is totally conscience of his goal, CINC, and aware of his ability to use his race as an asset. Poor me on one end of the spectrum to: “I am somebody” on the other. I also think he is without principles and will alter his ideology to achieve his end.
His ability to captivate the mass following and to raise the money he has, with his resume, is a testament to the current naiveté or desperation that those following in lock step to his call must feel. I shudder at that thought of him is a position of true power.

CRad

04-03-2008, 22:01

TSD or Chuck for short ;)
I can't reply to your whole post this evening. The "To the Right of Attilla" part made me laugh because I had a friend who always said I was too "the Right of the Israelis and slightly to the left of Attila." He died and I miss him.

Your post rocked. It made me think about what I am espousing and that doesn't happen too often.

I dislike Sowell even though I read what he writes. Leonard Pitts, Jr is more my speed. Alan Keyes is a pompous ass, but then I got to see him in the 2000 debates.

If you had an hour or so or I had 10 or so pages for writing I could explain why I am an Obama supporter. The funny part is that I worked for John McCain in 2000 and was sorely vexed by the dirty politics of SC and NY.

I've gotten older and smarter and had friends who worked with and for McCain who have talked to me about him. If my choice is Hillary or McCain I am voting for McCain. So if I get a choice between Clinton or McCain I am voting McCain but if I get a choice between Obama and McCain...right now I say I'm voting for Obama but it might be tough for me to do ---past history and all things considered.

One other thing, I read George Schultz's book. He wasn't all that great. Colin Powell kind of bites too. Personal opinion there and I voted for Reagan twice.

Shar

04-03-2008, 22:26

CRad

04-03-2008, 22:41

I think it would be really great to have a woman or a minority be a President...if they were a staunch conservative! :D

Just when I was fixing to go watch reruns you say something really awesome. Darn naggit! Figure the odds on a woman or African-American being conservative.
While we are at it - what does being a conservative mean to you? Economic Conservative? Social, Cultural? What?

Shar

04-03-2008, 23:03

Figure the odds on a woman or African-American being conservative.
While we are at it - what does being a conservative mean to you? Economic Conservative? Social, Cultural? What?

Odds: While I can't be scientific about this...
There's me...;) and a whole lot of my female friends. And I've got a couple close black and hispanic female friends too - who incidentally are voting for McCain.
But since I know you are talking more INFLUENTIAL people - I'll just name the ones that come to my head real quick -
Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Karen Hughes, Condolezza Rice (black and female), Margaret Thatcher, Sandra Day O'Conner (moderate, but I'll take her), Peggy Noonan, Elizabeth Dole, (I'll ignore all the talking heads named Laura), Lisa Murkowski.
I know there are more - but these are the ones that hit my head first. I realize it doesn't seem like there are more female conservatives... but I think it's more a matter of the circles you run in. In my circles - my friends are 85% conservative, but I love my liberal friends too.

I can't talk with as much education about the minority population as I am not part of that population, but one of my best friends is black - and I can assure you that she and her family are all voting Republican and have for as long as she can remember. She went to that high school in Mississippi that just had it's first integrated prom last year. She and her husband may be an anomoly simply because of their surroundings - he is an Army officer. I don't know for sure. But that's what and who they are and I can't speak for them except to say that she's a black conservative (who incidentially gets really ticked if you call her an African-American).

I also can't speak for JC Watts, Colin Powell (moderate, but we'll take him), Clarence Thomas, Alan Keyes - but they are all black and Republican. As far as other minorities are concerned (hispanic, asian, etc) I know there are a number of them also - in fact in any given southwest/west State (Texas, AZ, CA) you can probably find a few "minority" Republican members of Congress.

As for me and what I am as far as a conservative...
I'm just about an everything conservative. I'm a strict constructionalist (to the point where I think the feds should stay out of the schools COMPLETELY), I'm a social conservative, I'm a fiscal conservative (and I'm not happy AT ALL with the games we're playing right now in DC), I'm not totally sure what you mean in the cultural sense but I do believe that we should have one language in this country and while we should embrace our heritage and ancestry, I'm not a "Euro-American" - I'm just an American, and I'm a speak softy but carry a big-fat-sticker (and use it when necessary).

Razor

04-04-2008, 00:23

nmap - this is a quote from a news source. Take it for what it's worth...

...the war in Iraq, whose costs along with the war in Afghanistan, according to some experts, have already totaled more than $3 trillion.

Here, I'll do the research for accurate figures for you. :rolleyes: From a post I wrote last month for a class comparing the cost of 29 days of military ops in OIF and OEF to the cost to rebuild NOLA to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane:

According to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) as of November 2007, in the 75 months the U.S. has engaged in the Global (more than Iraq here, folks) War on Terror (GWOT), the government has spent $604B for all its efforts, to include military, diplomatic, reconstruction, indigenous security and Veterans’ Affairs health costs in all theaters (Iraq, Afghanistan, the Philippines, the Horn of Africa, Europe, worldwide U.S. military bases, and domestic protection efforts) (CBO.gov, 2007). This amount represents a monthly average of $8B per month, assuming a constant spending rate, which of course doesn’t reflect reality. Dividing the costs even further, we find that total spending for operations in Iraq have averaged $5B per month (CBO.gov, 2007).

CBO.gov (2007). "Estimated Costs of U.S. Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and of Other Activities Related to the War on Terrorism". Retrieved from http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/86xx/doc8690/10-24-CostOfWar_Testimony.pdf

Sparky

04-04-2008, 01:39

This will only be my third Presidential election, but it has made me question my political affiliation more than any time in my short life. I have been a Republican most of my life. However, I can no longer claim myself as one. It seems that everything is moving to the political left, and that is scary for a man my age.

Almost four weeks ago I had my second child, a girl. I look at my two year old boy and my four week old daughter, and I wonder what kind of country they will live in. All we ever seem to think about is what the candidates might do during their four year term. We don’t seem to think about what the long term repercussions will be. Perhaps the FBI will be more responsive and effective if they can write their own search warrant in order to capture and break up a terrorist cell. But what will happen twenty years down the road? Will the powers that be find or create a loophole that will allow them to search anyone’s home without judicial review? Perhaps in the future my family would be considered a terrorist cell on the simple basis of how many firearms we own. You see, “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions”.

In the end I will vote for McCain. Not because I think he will be a great, or even good President. I will vote for him because, one, not voting negates my right to complain and, two, because he will not take away my guns (I hope). I wish I had better reasons, I really do. It makes me feel like I am voting for a Democrat in order to try to keep the Socialists at bay.

I could write more about why I don’t like Obama and Clinton, but I will save that for another post.

3SoldierDad

04-04-2008, 09:48

What does being a conservative mean to you? Economic Conservative? Social, Cultural? What?

What does being a conservative mean to me? CRad, that should be it's own thread....

Here's my short answer.

Freedom, Freedom, Freedom...That's my three word answer.

And, that big gov't sucks. Gov't screws up almost everything it touches exept for killing bad people - Destroying Hitler's monster regime was the gov't's greatest value-add for the 20th century. And, if we aren't careful and we elect the wrong guy or gal, black or white (I don't care) - it won't even succeed at killing the bad people. If it fails at that - OUR FREEDOM WILL END.

Being stupid has consequences...

Be smart, be safe, be conservative.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

Razor

04-04-2008, 09:51

Will the powers that be find or create a loophole that will allow them to search anyone’s home without judicial review? Perhaps in the future my family would be considered a terrorist cell on the simple basis of how many firearms we own.

We're already well on the way there.

Police Limit Searches for Guns
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/03/25/police_limit_searches_for_guns/

D.C. Seeks Consent to Search for Guns
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/12/AR2008031202717.html

AGaillard

04-04-2008, 09:57

Where was all the media hand ringing about people being unwilling to vote for a black person when Michael Steele was running in Maryland, or Lynn Swann in Pennsylvania? I would vote for them, JC Watts or Condoleza Rice in a heart beat. It appears to me it is only racism if you are critical of a liberal minority. Democrats will go to any length to destroy a black conservative, and never once be called on it by Jackson, Sharpton or the press.

I will be voting for McCain.

Dad

04-04-2008, 10:04

I was a McCain supporter in 2000. I think we would be in a lot better shape if he had won then. He would not have allowed Tom "Hottub" Delay to bully him. He is a fiscal conservative and without responsible management of our nations finances we are destroying our childrens futures. Also, when we are in tough financial times we all have a pretty good idea what branch of government is going to get screwed first. That said, I am very concerned to learn that 2 of his leading economic advisers are Phil Gramm and Carly Fiorini (sp?). those 2 could drive a ship into an iceberg in no time.
I don't dislike Obama at all, his minister's comments were no worse than a lot of cracker preachers I have heard. But I won't vote for him. It seems to me the country seems to run better when congress and the presidency are of different parties. They have to reach out to each other to govern. One party controlling both congress and the presidency leads to an arrogance that can be disastrous.
I know many here don't care for McCain because of the MIA issue. Our nations treatment of MIAs has been disgraceful. I have heard, in his defense, that this issue was one where he gained his reputation for his temper, telling (screaming) a fellow committee member to go f*** himself. But he was just one man. Maybe he could have done more, I don't know. Maybe he is doing more and we don't know about it. I sure as hell hope so.

Guy

04-04-2008, 10:12

It appears to me it is only racism if you are critical of a liberal minority. Democrats will go to any length to destroy a black conservative, and never once be called on it by Jackson, Sharpton or the press.Speaking critical of a "liberal" Democrat will get you in trouble!:lifter

Stay safe.

Dad

04-04-2008, 10:32

I first came across the $3 trillion dollar cost of the war several months ago. As I recall it was an estimation by an economist from MIT as to past, present and estimated future costs of the war. these costs were all inclusive-including all direct costs, costs of future repairs, additional costs to be borne by the VA etc. for long term care of the wounded. What time frame into the future these costs were projected I don't think was indicated. When projecting into the future would seem to be difficult since you would only count incremental costs related to Iraq and Afghanistan. I think there are some DOD types who would know a lot more.

Counsel

04-04-2008, 10:46

That is the Rhode Island standard...:D

Sure his name isn't Cianci?

Why do these guys do this? Most of them have the economic means to NOT STEAL. Why do they go down this road and set themselves' up for the embarrassment, and to their family, not to say the time they will spend in jail.

The worse part of this is next year, another handful of politicians will be caught in the act, again.

Here in PR what this Governor is doing really has no shame, even for a politician. He is now trying to persuade public opinion to his side (influencing possible jurors), playing the status card, saying that the 19 charges are against the people of PR and not him. :eek: This guy is clearly a disgrace to the office he was "appointed" to.

Gypsy

04-04-2008, 11:25

But in the same vein, I'm getting really tired of the media and others throwing around this whole "conservatives can't see past voting for a black guy or a woman" thing. It's as if the media is getting ready to chalk a possible McCain win to America being too bigoted to vote for a woman or a black man. And that REALLY bothers me. I'm certainly not dumb enough to think that there aren't large portions of the country that still have issues voting outside of the 'white man' norm - but COME ON.

Spot on.

I cannot vote for Obama simply because he is not qualified in the least.

The Reaper

04-04-2008, 12:18

But in the same vein, I'm getting really tired of the media and others throwing around this whole "conservatives can't see past voting for a black guy or a woman" thing. It's as if the media is getting ready to chalk a possible McCain win to America being too bigoted to vote for a woman or a black man. And that REALLY bothers me. I'm certainly not dumb enough to think that there aren't large portions of the country that still have issues voting outside of the 'white man' norm - but COME ON..

It is their talking point of the week, probably to try and capture the guilt ridden vote.

Don't worry, it will soon change to something else.

Just ask Randi Rhodes, spokesperson for the libs and Dems. Looks like a lot of haters on their side:D

TR

CRad

04-06-2008, 03:25

Here, I'll do the research for accurate figures for you. :rolleyes: From a post I wrote last month for a class comparing the cost of 29 days of military ops in OIF and OEF to the cost to rebuild NOLA to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane:

Thank you and I should have done my own research and better a job of it at that. I tend to "talk" on the computer the same way I would if we were face to face and often that doesn't include having facts and figures at my fingertips. 'Causes me to lose "discussions" with my husband on a regular basis.

(By the way, my mother-in-law says it's not nice to roll your eyes at people ;))

nmap

04-06-2008, 12:54

The Iowa Electronic Markets (run by the University of Iowa) runs a futures market of a sort. They use it as a research tool, and it has had some interesting successes in the past.

Right now, it seems to be predicting an Obama win of the nomination, followed by a Democratic win of the White House. The details, along with charts of the changes over time, are on the right of the linked page below.

There is no cost to look, nor is there any need to register.

LINK (http://www.biz.uiowa.edu/iem/)

My take - prepare for lots of inflation and higher taxes. Gold coins, such as those issued by the U.S. treasury, are nice. Raw land (no houses or other structures) is good too. CDs and bonds will receive yields below inflation - and that's before taxes. The stock market may go up. I note that Zimbabwe's market is up, despite inflation estimated at 100,000% per annum (that's one hundred thousand percent).

And yes, I recognize that opinions about the market are like certain other things...everyone has one.