Sister Service Officers as 18As

[Defender968]

I've recently become aware of a few sister service officers (specifically AF and Navy) who are in the process of going through the Q. While I would guess this would be a fairly unusual occurrence I'm curious to see what experiences they've had both in the course and after it, (specifically dealing with their background and the challenges or benefits it presented) if any are willing to share. I'd also like to know what experiences any of the QPs have had in serving with detachment commanders who came from either the AF or the Navy, good or bad.

Thanks

[Aoresteen]

The Navy has always sent SEALS to the Q course. We had one in my class in 1980. Super guy as well.

[SF_BHT]

I've recently become aware of a few sister service officers (specifically AF and Navy) who are in the process of going through the Q. While I would guess this would be a fairly unusual occurrence I'm curious to see what experiences they've had both in the course and after it, (specifically dealing with their background and the challenges or benefits it presented) if any are willing to share. I'd also like to know what experiences any of the QPs have had in serving with detachment commanders who came from either the AF or the Navy, good or bad.

Thanks

I take it that you are referring to O's that do an inter service transfer to the Army.
I have Known several enlisted that jumped to the army for SF as enlisted and some as O's. They came with other outlooks and experiences that contributed to the teams capability. That is what makes a team unique. You really need that regular military experience to draw from to enhance the mission.

[Defender968]

I take it that you are referring to O's that do an inter service transfer to the Army.
I have Known several enlisted that jumped to the army for SF as enlisted and some as O's. They came with other outlooks and experiences that contributed to the teams capability. That is what makes a team unique. You really need that regular military experience to draw from to enhance the mission.

I’m reading what you’re saying SF_BHT, the different experiences can be good for the teams, and the regular AF/NAVY/ARMY/MARINE experience gives you something to draw from, a base line.

If I can SF_BHT, can I ask how you would view an O from another service if he showed up on your team? Would it make a difference to you, or would it simply depend on how he performs while he’s there?

I know that interservice transfers have always happened at the enlisted level, but I have not found much in terms of accounts of it happening on the officer side, not to say it is happening more now or didn't happen before, but I've read on this board and elsewhere about AF officers applying but not much of any making it. I simply wanted to get first hand information if possible. (I’m not asking if it’s possible I know it is, I was simply curious as to the experiences of those who have done it, or experienced those who have)

As for the different experiences, I would think the experience Navy SEAL officers, AF CROs or STOs would have would be very applicable. What I'm more curious about is the experience from the regular AF or Navy officers.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

As for the different experiences, I would think the experience Navy SEAL officers, AF CROs or STOs would have would be very applicable. .

And how do you draw that conclusion? What exactly do you think that these folks have that would make them anymore desireable than anyone else?

[The Reaper]

I’m reading what you’re saying SF_BHT, the different experiences can be good for the teams, and the regular AF/NAVY/ARMY/MARINE experience gives you something to draw from, a base line.

If I can SF_BHT, can I ask how you would view an O from another service if he showed up on your team? Would it make a difference to you, or would it simply depend on how he performs while he’s there?

I know that interservice transfers have always happened at the enlisted level, but I have not found much in terms of accounts of it happening on the officer side, not to say it is happening more now or didn't happen before, but I've read on this board and elsewhere about AF officers applying but not much of any making it. I simply wanted to get first hand information if possible. (I’m not asking if it’s possible I know it is, I was simply curious as to the experiences of those who have done it, or experienced those who have)

As for the different experiences, I would think the experience Navy SEAL officers, AF CROs or STOs would have would be very applicable. What I'm more curious about is the experience from the regular AF or Navy officers.

Never saw a Navy or AF officer make it into the program, or even try.

Several Marines did, and succeeded.

TR

[Surgicalcric]

...and are both former Navy Officers who came from the SWCC community. One is currently serving in 10th Group and the other in 3rd I believe... They were in my SFAS class.

As memory serves me they were both well received by their class mates but I dont have any real feedback as to how they fit in on a team. I would imagine, like with anyone else on a team, they were judged by what they brought to the team not where they came from.

I also know of an AF Officer but dont have any real useful information on him as he is still in the course.

Crip

[SF_BHT]

I’m reading what you’re saying SF_BHT, the different experiences can be good for the teams, and the regular AF/NAVY/ARMY/MARINE experience gives you something to draw from, a base line.

If I can SF_BHT, can I ask how you would view an O from another service if he showed up on your team? Would it make a difference to you, or would it simply depend on how he performs while he’s there?
I know that interservice transfers have always happened at the enlisted level, but I have not found much in terms of accounts of it happening on the officer side, not to say it is happening more now or didn't happen before, but I've read on this board and elsewhere about AF officers applying but not much of any making it. I simply wanted to get first hand information if possible. (I’m not asking if it’s possible I know it is, I was simply curious as to the experiences of those who have done it, or experienced those who have)

As for the different experiences, I would think the experience Navy SEAL officers, AF CROs or STOs would have would be very applicable. What I'm more curious about is the experience from the regular AF or Navy officers.

No sister service officers have ever commanded a A-Team to my knowledge in an exchange program while still serving in the AF or Navy.

As Surgicalcric noted some have branch transfered and are currently serving as Army officers in SF.

As the Good Col Noted "What exactly do you think that these folks have that would make them anymore desirable than anyone else? " Nothing They only would bring unique Navy or AF experiences to the job.

[x-factor]

I'd be interested if anyone believes that an increased/streamlined service-crossover option (at the extreme, making USSF a standing joint unit with a steady flow of applicants from all services) would be a smarter move than trying to raise MARSOC from scratch to take up some of the FID mission?

[Falstaff]

I was an O-3 in the Navy with 7 years commissioned service when I dropped my commission and enlisted in 20th group. My warfare specialty in the Navy was SWO (Surface Warfare Officer), which did not readily transfer over to the Army. I was told that if I wanted to become an 18A, I could either get my tab and then accept a commission when my first enlistment was over (after attending the Captain's Career Course and Phases III and IV), or come over as an infantry officer and after attending the requisite schools and serving in an infantry unit attend SFAS. I chose instead to go the Q as a SGT and become an 18E. Having seen both sides of the coin, I think that a successful officer in a sister service will probably be a successful officer in the SF community. However, the cultural differences between the Navy or Air Force and the Army are as profound as those between the U.S. Army and another country's service. With these cultural differences and the numerous practical skill-sets that a inter-service transfer would be missing, it would be an extremely steep learning curve in both the Q and on a team. I do think that good leadership transcends service affiliation.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

[QUOTE=Falstaff;204062] I do think that good leadership transcends service affiliation.[/QUOT

I agree in principle, however leadership styles for a successful 18A do not necessarily transcend service concepts of leadership. The caliber, expectations, skill sets, and demands of A-Team troops and beyond are a lot different, with some exceptions, than what you are likely to find elsewhere.

[The Reaper]

I agree in principle, however leadership styles for a successful 18A do not necessarily transcend service concepts of leadership. The caliber, expectations, skill sets, and demands of A-Team troops and beyond are a lot different, with some exceptions, than what you are likely to find elsewhere.

Absolutely.

I have even heard of occasional Merchant Marine grads going on to distinguished careers as SF officers.

TR

[Defender968]

First let me apologize, I think I should have titled this thread Prior Sister Service Officers as 18As.

And how do you draw that conclusion? What exactly do you think that these folks have that would make them anymore desirable than anyone else?

Sir I believe I completely failed to accurately communicate. I don't think that an officer from either the AF or NAVY would be more desirable than an Army officer at all, especially one with infantry experience, quite the contrary I think that either an AF or NAVY officer would be quite a bit behind the power curve, but possibly not too much further behind than say an Army Acquisitions officer in some ways. What I meant but failed to accurately convey by my earlier statement was that I would think that the experience a SEAL officer, or an AF CRO/STO would possess would be much more relevant than that of a line Navy or AF officer, I sincerely apologize if that came across wrong. I in no way think an AF or NAVY officer would make a better candidate to become an 18A than anyone else.

No sister service officers have ever commanded a A-Team to my knowledge in an exchange program while still serving in the AF or Navy.
As Surgicalcric noted some have branch transfered and are currently serving as Army officers in SF.

As the Good Col Noted "What exactly do you think that these folks have that would make them anymore desirable than anyone else? " Nothing They only would bring unique Navy or AF experiences to the job.

I apologize again for failing to be clear, what I meant was a former AF/NAVY officer who had gone through an interserivce transfer and branch transferred to SF, not an exchange program of any type. I was seeking input from exactly those officers that Surgicalcric speaks of, a prior AF/NAVY type that made it through the interservice transfer process and successfully through SFAS, the 18A course, the Q, and to a team. The question I was trying to ask SF_BHT was how you would feel about a prior AF/NAVY officer who had made it into SF after coming through the interservice transfer route.

Again I meant no offense, I simply had been given information from a recruiter that sister service officers were able to go through an interserivce transfer and then attend SFAS and go on into the pipeline to become an 18A and I wanted to touch base with someone who had actually done it if possible.

I was an O-3 in the Navy with 7 years commissioned service when I dropped my commission and enlisted in 20th group. My warfare specialty in the Navy was SWO (Surface Warfare Officer), which did not readily transfer over to the Army. I was told that if I wanted to become an 18A, I could either get my tab and then accept a commission when my first enlistment was over (after attending the Captain's Career Course and Phases III and IV), or come over as an infantry officer and after attending the requisite schools and serving in an infantry unit attend SFAS. I chose instead to go the Q as a SGT and become an 18E. Having seen both sides of the coin, I think that a successful officer in a sister service will probably be a successful officer in the SF community. However, the cultural differences between the Navy or Air Force and the Army are as profound as those between the U.S. Army and another country's service. With these cultural differences and the numerous practical skill-sets that a inter-service transfer would be missing, it would be an extremely steep learning curve in both the Q and on a team. I do think that good leadership transcends service affiliation.

Thanks Falstaff that is along the lines of what I was thinking in terms of the cultural differences between the AF/NAVY and Army, but without any firsthand knowledge to either prove or disprove my thought process.

[Surgicalcric]

...I simply had been given information from a recruiter that sister service officers were able to go through an interservice transfer and then attend SFAS and go on into the pipeline to become an 18A....

When I attended SFAS in '05, and things could have changed since then, the officers attended SFAS first. If selected the O's were then interservice transferred to start the SFQC.

Crip

[bssantos]

Gentlemen,
I am an active duty Marine Corps officer. I completed SFAS last September. I owe the Corps one more year on my contract and then I will inter-service transfer into the Army as an infantry officer. Sequence of training will be as follows:
1. MCCC
2. Airborne
3. Q course
- MOS becomes 18A
4. Ranger

And then to group.

[Pete]

... I completed SFAS last September. I owe the Corps one more year on my contract and then I will inter-service transfer into the Army as an infantry officer......

Great news and good luck.

Now toddle off to the intro thread and post an intro. Your thread count only shows (1.) post - this one. If you posted one way back when it may went missing somewhere and you need another one.

Pete

[Blueboy]

Gentlemen,
I am an active duty Marine Corps officer. I completed SFAS last September. I owe the Corps one more year on my contract and then I will inter-service transfer into the Army as an infantry officer. Sequence of training will be as follows:
1. MCCC
2. Airborne
3. Q course
- MOS becomes 18A
4. Ranger

And then to group.

A Marine officer branch-transferring to have a go at the Q-Course? Great stuff! I take back all the unflattering words I've ever uttered about the Corps (well, maybe not all...).

Did you consider trying for MARSOC?

[Sinister]

The only sister service officer I knew to complete the Q Course and serve in an SF Leadership position was Major (now Major General) Gordon C. Nash.

MAJ Nash was assigned as the SF Detachment Officer Qualification Course (Phase II) Chief from (I believe) 1983-1986.

I've served with a SEAL who attended the Ranger course. I wouldn't piss on his guts if they were on fire.

[The Reaper]

The only sister service officer I knew to complete the Q Course and serve in an SF Leadership position was Major (now Major General) Gordon C. Nash.

MAJ Nash was assigned as the SF Detachment Officer Qualification Course (Phase II) Chief from (I believe) 1983-1986.

I've served with a SEAL who attended the Ranger course. I wouldn't piss on his guts if they were on fire.


I had no idea that Maj Nash had gone on to make GO. He was the Chief when I went through and I remember him as a great guy.

Most of the time in Training Group, the USMC officer was in a staff position.

Thanks for the good news.

TR

[Froggy]

B Santos is not alone in his endevor; I too am in the process of applying for a move from the USMC infantry to Army SF. In the last couple of months as I have begun to compile the package, I have come to find out that not only is the USMC-officer-to-Army-SF pipeline unheard of, it is not even all that unusual. The officers that I know of who have attempted and/or completed the transfer process have all strongly considered the MARSOC option. For one reason or another, more than one officer has choosen to forgo MARSOC for Army SF. Reasoning for this can quickly spiral into diatribe and is not appropriate for this thread, so I won't start that one off. Suffice it to say that most of these officers are not inexperienced glory-seekers who think the grass is always greener, but rather are fairly-seasoned young officers (to the extent that there is such a thing) with several combat deployments who seek to serve in a professional, competent unit that influences operational and national level objectives. All of these men (that I know) have been infantry officers.

[Sinister]

http://www.usmc.mil/genbios2.nsf/working/4A9D2BE02E1AA0EF85256808006DB7EF/$FILE/lowres.jpg

Major General
Gordon C. Nash
Director, Expeditionary Warfare Division (OPNAV N75)

Major General Gordon C. Nash currently serves as the Director, Expeditionary Warfare Division (OPNAV N75). He assumed his current assignment on November 12, 2004.

Major General Nash's previous assignment was the Deputy Commander, U.S. Marine Corps Forces, Atlantic in Norfolk, Virginia.

Major General Nash is the son of a career U.S. Naval Officer. After graduating from Hampden-Sydney College, he completed Officer Candidates School and received his commission in December 1971. Major General Nash's assignments have included tours with Marine Corps Operating Forces in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Marine Divisions, and with I, II and III Marine Expeditionary Forces. He has commanded Marine Corps operating forces from the platoon to the division level, and served at different times as executive officer, operations officer, and logistics officer in a variety of units. In August 1986, Major General Nash was selected to reactivate and command the 1st Force Reconnaissance Company. He has served as the Commanding General, 3rd Force Service Support Group and the 3rd Marine Division, both headquartered in Okinawa, Japan.

Major General Nash has served tours outside the Marine Corps operating forces at the Officer Candidates School, Officer Assignment Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps, with the Plans Division, Plans, Policy and Operations, Headquarters Marine Corps, with Observer Group Lebanon, UN Truce Supervision Organization-Palestine, with the Special Forces Schools, Fort Bragg, NC and with the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), Fort Bragg, NC. During the assignment with JSOC, he also served as the J-3 for Task Force Ranger in Somalia. In the spring of 1998, he commanded Joint Task Force Auburn Endeavor in support of Department of Energy efforts in Tbilisi, Georgia. He has served as the Director Operations Division, Plans, Policies and Operations, Headquarters Marine Corps. His most recent joint assignment was as Commander, Joint Warfighting Center and Director, Joint Training J7, United States Joint Forces Command, Suffolk, Virginia.

His professional military education has included attendance at the Amphibious Warfare School, the United States Army Special Forces Qualification Course, the Marine Corps Command and Staff College, and the National War College.

Major General Nash's personal awards include the Defense Superior Service Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster, the Legion of Merit with Gold Star, the Defense Meritorious Service Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster, the Meritorious Service Medal with Gold Star, the Army Commendation Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster, the Army Achievement Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster, the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal, the Combat Action Ribbon, the Army Special Forces Tab, the Army Master Parachutist Insignia, the British Army Parachutist Insignia, and the Royal Thai Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia.

(Updated 31 October 2005, HQMC)

[Richard]

Guys,

There were two Force Recon Marines in the O Course I was in and they were both competent and fit in well. Upon completion of the course, they went back to 2nd Force Recon Bn. There were also some foreign officers attending.

I also knew of one officer who did an interservice transfer to the USN to become a SEAL. CRS his name but the last time I saw him he was a LCDR with NAVSPECWARUONE at Subic Bay.

Richard

[corbind]

Never saw a Navy or AF officer make it into the program, or even try.

Several Marines did, and succeeded.

TR

Sir, would you want to make an educated guess why that is so? I've read many posts on this forum over the past month or so. You are a big part of this board and have knowledge we all would like do draw upon.

[McNamara]

I am a Navy officer who attended SFAS. There were two AF officers in the class as well and they were also selected. My background is aviation, so I know I have a steep learning curve ahead of me.

My transfer has taken a while, but I should be getting orders soon to come into the Army as an 11A and attend MCCC. I look forward to the great challenges ahead.

[Landlubber]

To all interested, I was a SWO in the Navy for 5 and 1/2 years. I was on a ship as a "line" officer, then moved to NSW as a boat guy for 3 yrs. I saw the light and decided to try SFAS rather than BUDs. I am still relieved that I made that decision. Since being selected, I intra-service transferred, began ICCC (now MCCC) and completed the QC. I showed up to a team just before PMT, and am typing this from a sandy place.

What I can tell you is that YES, it is a very different culture. I was lucky to be working in SOF for a few years prior to coming over, however, it is still very different. I would recommend anyone that follows my footsteps capitalize on any light infantry tactics and leadership opportunities. It has been a challenge to fill the role of typically prior-11A TLs, but if you can't meet a challenge like that, then you don't belong here anyway, right? Now that I'm over here with a great team and working with PL's from INF and ARMOR, I don't think they have much on me as far as tactical knowledge, it's more of just being brought up in the Army culture.

I have learned a lot in my Army time, but I agree, I think that good leadership and inter-personal skills will serve you well no matter where or who you serve with. I continue to learn new things everyday, but then...that's what I signed up to do! I have even had the opportunity to conduct some joint operations with the very SEALs I worked with in the Navy, and all I can say is that I stand behind my decision. The worst part is: what do I do while watching the Army Navy game?

LL

[D9 (RIP)]

I loved the Marine Corps, but the thing I liked least about it was officer leadership.

My only experience with a USMC officer in SF was poor, which paralleled my USMC enlisted experience.

I wish we could import more SGMs, and less 0's, but alas....

I hope you all turn out differently. Good luck.

S/F

[kmarokid]

McNamara, when did you attend SFAS? I think I might be one of the prior AF officers you speak of.

A buddy of mine and I, both Air Weapons Officers on the back of the AWACS and then both Air Liaison Officers - ALOs (think officer JTACs), seperated under a volunteer program back in the fall of '07. We both joined up with 20th SFG(A) and went to drill three times before attending SFAS in June '08. We were both selected and are currently attending MCCC. Other than this captains course and Airborne both of which were after SFAS, niether of us have had any formal Army training (tactics or otherwise) except for some joint courses during our ALO billets. Our guard unit did a stellar job preparing us for SFAS if you ask me and I was also fortunate enough to still be living in the Ft Hood area and the SF recruiter unit there let me PT with them every morning. Our unit tossed around the idea of sending us to pre-Ranger, but timing was an issue for that. From what I've heard the only thing pre-Ranger is good for is Ranger. I believe that attending IOBC before coming to the MCCC would have helped some as I've had to fill in the gaps in my tactics/PL knowledge, but not sure how IOBC post-MCCC would help out with SUT. I've been parusing 3-21.8 and the Ranger handbook and am a little concerned with my performance at SUT but looking forward to learning. There is another individal in the MCCC with us who service transfered from the Air Force. He attended IOBC, Airborne and Ranger before SFAS I believe. He seemed to be a little more indoctrinated into the Army way of things but at this point we're all pretty much on the same level. If this post lasts long enough, I'll keep updating as we go through SFQC.

[McNamara]

kmarokid,

I apologize for the late reply. We may know some of the same people; PM sent regarding that. Good luck and I look forward to seeing you in Bragg soon.

To all others, having gone through MCCC now I can say that it was indeed a steep learning curve at first, but a combination of hard studying and soaking up knowledge from my fellow captains with infantry PL experience served me well. I can't wait to get to the SFDOQC and begin the next stage of training.