View Full Version : SF Changing
There's an older man I know who was SF back in Vietnam. He was a Commo guy in 7th Group. We got to talking about SF and his career in it. He said he joined up a month after he turned 17, did MOS training at Fort Gordon, and his MOS was an 05E (if I remember right)-a commo guy. He said it took him awhile to make his E-5, and most astoundingly, he said that when he went through, Q-Course was only 15 weeks long!
This leads me to ask the QP's on this forum (especially the older gents)---how has the SF chaned since you've been in, and if anyone is up for it, where do you see it going (I know, been asked before, but it would add to the part of how its changed, I think)?
...and his MOS was an 05E (if I remember right)-a commo guy. He said it took him awhile to make his E-5, and most astoundingly, he said that when he went through, Q-Course was only 15 weeks long!05E was a voice radio operator, IIRC...not an SF skill, so he would have had to learn Morse Code to become an 05B...I don't know about a 15 week training group for someone who wasn't trained in IMC, but it was sixteen weeks when I went through in '76...
Speaking only for myself, I'd appreciate it if you changed your signature line...I find it annoying and unrepresentative...
And as far as your question regarding SF and how it has "changed" us...? The search button is your friend...
Read more, search often, post less...IMNSHO...:munchin
Thanks for the reply, Sir. I didn't mean how the SFs changed you per se (though I have read that post). I meant how the SF has changed since you were in. For example, since I've been in the Army, boot camp has changed from 9 weeks to 10.
On the issue of the SL, roger that Sir , changing it now. I meant no offense, and I appoligize.
LongWire
03-22-2008, 02:45
You really have no understanding of the depths that you are asking us to expound upon. I would suggest using the search button, and then maybe buying some books and reading the history found within those, and maybe learning what they do down in SWCS today, then forget all that and drive forward with your goal. All that really matters is the Road in front of YOU.
Honestly, you've been in for how long now, and they have added 1 week to Basic since then. We really don't have the time, patience or tolerance level, to line out how many changes that the course has made throughout the years. Im sure that maybe there is a timeline somewhere, but I've yet to see one. The last few years would look like a Richter Scale in California just from looking at it!!!!!
The course is a lot longer than it was in older days.
So you go "Gee, I must be a lot better trained than the old farts".
Not so. Language School and SERE were not a part of the course in the old days. Nor was any NCO PD courses or classes. You were expected to know Infantry Tactics when you showed up and if you were fresh off the street you had one chance to learn on the fly.
The Old Course was Patrol (Phase I), MOS (Phase II) and UW (Phase III). Commo had BROC and Medics - well they never graduated with a class they started with :D. SFAS was added to fine tune selection, then a couple of years later Language school was added onto the end.
Other than that you came back to the school house or out to "Big Army" for other classes and courses.
So short course with returns to the school house or pack everything into a long course and send them on their way? They picked pack everything into a long course.
Me? I found the Engineer Advanced Course up at Ft Belvoir to be right nice.
The Old Course was Patrol (Phase I), MOS (Phase II) and UW (Phase III). Commo had BROC and Medics - well they never graduated with a class they started with :D. SFAS was added to fine tune selection, then a couple of years later Language school was added onto the end..Being not quite as vintage as Pete, Phase I was a rather entertaining mix of land nav instruction and a charming seventeen day walk, alone, at night, through the Uwharrie National Forest...:lifter
Being not quite as vintage as Pete, Phase I was a rather entertaining mix of land nav instruction and a charming seventeen day walk, alone, at night, through the Uwharrie National Forest...:lifter
I just lumped the main theme into my post.
After PT in Phase I just sit down, open your brain and the fire hose was turned on. Land Nav, Small unit tactics, Survival, Rappelling, Water ops/slide for life, Rucking, The Big Nasty and littler friends, etc, etc - no down time - and then the FTX started.
But back to my main point - I think the powers that be considered it cost and time effective, since they had the basic student under their control anyway, to just add in the courses they would be coming back for anyway in the next few years.
Both methods have pro's and con's.
I liked the coming back method because it allowed SF guys to mix with troops from other Groups and share experiences.
I did like the idea of "Team schools" like the old SOT because it allowed all (most) of the individuals on a Team to share the same experience. Although STRAT RECON pretty much sucked the big one :D all the way around.
At one time 5 of the 9 active SF Battalions were at Ft Bragg. Once the 7th departs the vast majority of battalions will be off Bragg, well it's been that way for a while anyway. Throw in Op Tempo and how hard will it be to get "the right guy" back for a centralized 18 series school.
A lot of things the CSMs and SGMs need to be thinking about.
Just my opinion of course.
Pete
I do realize there are new subject's in the course and I am not addressing them.
Just my opinion of course.Thanks, Pete...there's so much us younger guys can learn from you vintage folk...:D
2018commo
03-22-2008, 09:10
In the guard team structure was long term and cross generational. It seamed just about everyone had experienced a different version of the course, and after a while you could tell their stories better than they could. I remember hearing that the US hockey team beat the USSR, we though it was TAC propaganda! The course will always be changing as we are all trainers and thinkers.
Thanks, Pete...there's so much us younger guys can learn from you vintage folk...:D
You and I were bottled about the same time.
I like the guys talking about "back in the old days" - THE 90s :D.
mark46th
03-22-2008, 16:26
When I went through in 1971, we had Phase I at Mackall(4 Weeks). I went through this in February. Phase II was MOS- In my case, 05B. I knew code when I got there so it was much shorter for me, I passed 15 WPM and caught a class going for the field training up in Uwharrie. Then on to Phase III- SF tactics (UW). I finished this in June of 1971 and was assigned to the 5th Group. So, as far as training goes, yes, things have changed. But the mission remains the same...
And enough of this Old Guy crap...Age and experience will always win over youth and talent...
Jack Moroney (RIP)
03-22-2008, 17:31
The program has changed over the years, some for the better some for other reasons. The one constant that has not changed is the commitment and character of the SF soldier. While each was a product of various programs they all matured at the hands, and sometimes the boot, of the troops on the team regardless of the creds that they initially carried across the teamroom threshold.
In his book Roughneck 91, retired SFC Frank Antenori repeatedly became frustrated with the fact that his chain of command simply wasn't willing to take the risks needed to accomplish the mission. Is this an isolated incident, or do you see this as a large trend? I hope I'm not out of line for asking this.
The Reaper
03-24-2008, 14:50
In his book Roughneck 91, retired SFC Frank Antenori repeatedly became frustrated with the fact that his chain of command simply wasn't willing to take the risks needed to accomplish the mission. Is this an isolated incident, or do you see this as a large trend? I hope I'm not out of line for asking this.
You have a lot of questions.
Do you like living on the edge?
TR
Yes Sir I guess I do. Do I like living on the edge? I'd say that I'm by no means an adrenaline junkie (I study math all day for Gods sake!), but I do feel that the mission comes first, and if that means taking risks, so be it.
Now, I think that's extremely different from putting yourself at unnecessary risk just for the sake of "bein' cool" and "hey, I did this on Halo 2 once!" Those people are best off staying on the damn video game...they don't get me killed that way!
I hope that answers your question, Sir.
Team Sergeant
03-24-2008, 15:40
In his book Roughneck 91, retired SFC Frank Antenori repeatedly became frustrated with the fact that his chain of command simply wasn't willing to take the risks needed to accomplish the mission. Is this an isolated incident, or do you see this as a large trend? I hope I'm not out of line for asking this.
Why don't you ask Frank Antenori, he is a member of this board.
As far as your question goes, while it may not be "out of line" I don't think you're going to get a lot of QP discussion on the topic on public forums.
Now you got sit in the corner and ask yourself, Why?
Team Sergeant
tom kelly
03-24-2008, 18:00
Yes Sir I guess I do. Do I like living on the edge? I'd say that I'm by no means an adrenaline junkie (I study math all day for Gods sake!), but I do feel that the mission comes first, and if that means taking risks, so be it.
Now, I think that's extremely different from putting yourself at unnecessary risk just for the sake of "bein' cool" and "hey, I did this on Halo 2 once!" Those people are best off staying on the damn video game...they don't get me killed that way!
I hope that answers your question, Sir.
A math professor once told me that " math does not take great ability,talent, or skill, you only have to follow the rules and apply them". You need to use the search button and read more. Regards, tom kelly
Yes Sir I guess I do. Do I like living on the edge? I'd say that I'm by no means an adrenaline junkie (I study math all day for Gods sake!), but I do feel that the mission comes first, and if that means taking risks, so be it.
Now, I think that's extremely different from putting yourself at unnecessary risk just for the sake of "bein' cool" and "hey, I did this on Halo 2 once!" Those people are best off staying on the damn video game...they don't get me killed that way!
I hope that answers your question, Sir.We use it every day! The SOB that slid off of five-stories to his death was not adding at the time.:eek:
SF ain't NO joke!
Stay safe.
A math professor once told me that " math does not take great ability,talent, or skill, you only have to follow the rules and apply them". You need to use the search button and read more. Regards, tom kelly
That professor was dead on the money, Sir. I wasn't saying I study math to sound smart, but merely to show that I'm not some dumbass kid who wants to go play Call of Duty in real life. This is something I take very seriously. I can see, however, that it would be easy to interpret my comments as elitist, though in NO capacity do I mean them that way! I apologize to any who interpret my comments as such, and will try to write more clearly in the future.
When I went through in 1971, we had Phase I at Mackall(4 Weeks). I went through this in February.
After BCT (8 wks), Ldrshp School (2 wks), 12B training (8 wks), RVN booby trap course (2 wks), and BAC (3 wks), I went through Phase 1 the same time as Mark. After Phase 1, we took the REMICK test (for 05Bs) and a plea was made for those wanting to switch to try for Medic. I then went through Medic Phase 1 at Bragg (8 wks), then 300F-1 at FSH (14 wks), rotations at Reynolds Army Hospital Ft Sill (6 wks), Dog Lab (8 wks), and then Phase 3. I graduated in June 72 and assigned to the 7th SFG.
In a nutshell, the old course was tailored to meet the needs of SF and the entry levels of those reporting to SFTG.
I already spoke Spanish so further language schooling, SERE, etc all came once assigned to Group.
Richard :munchin
The program has changed over the years, some for the better some for other reasons. The one constant that has not changed is the commitment and character of the SF soldier. While each was a product of various programs they all matured at the hands, and sometimes the boot, of the troops on the team regardless of the creds that they initially carried across the teamroom threshold.
To add to the COL's post, the program will continually change over the years in order to keep up with modernization and the AO.
mark46th
03-25-2008, 21:32
Hey Rich- That was one cold month at Mackall in February, eh?
Hey Rich- That was one cold month at Mackall in February, eh?
Mark,
Oh yes! Drowning Creek was no fun that month. Remember how so many guys quit right there near the end when we were on patrol in the swamps and it was sleeting and so cold? No fires, no shelters, just soaked to the skin and uncontrollable shivering. Bear Martin and Richmond Nail talked a lot of our classmates into just giving up and going in to a warm tent during that last week.
Richard
mark46th
03-27-2008, 19:04
I asked Dan F why he didn't quit that night. He said he was frozen to the tree he was leaning against and couldn't get loose...
My ass was frozen to the ruck I was sitting on to keep it out of the swamp we were in for the RON that night. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!! !!!!
Richard:D
My ass was frozen to the ruck I was sitting on...Summer Ranger, Summer Q Course...:D:D:D
mark46th
03-27-2008, 22:56
Lksteve- Too bad! Nothing like having to break the ice on Drowning creek so we could do the Slide for Life. Or jumping into Big Muddy when the water temp is 33 degrees! The good news was if the air temp was under 10 degrees, we didn't have to run...
I think 50 or 60 guys quit that night in the swamp.
Everyone should have to do it in the winter and freeeeeezzzzeeeeee.
Our class was frozen one night during our last ambush in phase 1. We laid down to wait and it started sleeting and we were frozen in to the ground with our ponchos draped over us. The TAC in the morning called it as he was trapped inside his and we had to cut some people out of the frozen mess. We built a fire so BIG that it started raining on us from the melting ice. Really slow walk back to Camp Mackall since the trucks that we were supposed to ambush could not drive on the fire breaks. No one had a problem getting a fire started that day when the TAC called the training exercise. Will never forget that patrol..
GaretTrooper
03-28-2008, 06:42
Dec 68 we were supposed to jump into phase II but it was ice storming so bad they closed Pope for the season. We drove out in open cattle trucks in the ice storm. When we got on site we couldn't start fires for tactical conditions so we all ended up under our ponchos with our m-16's. One of the coldest f'ng nights I ever had to put up with. Now back to the question.
Prior to the big push for SF in the late 60's to get into SF you had to be on your second enlistment and at least a SGT(E-5). I don't remember anything about MOS requirements don't think there were any.
When I went through in 68 there were three phases, Phase I, MOS and PhaseII. Phase I was basically patrolling, land nav, some IAD training. It seemed like IIB school to me just more concentrated.
MOS training time varied from the shortest course - Engineers to the longest - Medic. I wanted to be a Medic but was stuck in Commo because I maxed the RMIK test. I came in an 11B and left an 05BS.
Phase II taught you some Special Ops history, how to work with G’s and give classes. Plus more patrolling, etc. During the FTX for phase II my A-team had 23 members because of the big push. The A-team CDR was a Maj in the Chaplin Corp assigned to one of the groups. We had four 05B's on the team. Since I was the lowest rank (SP/4) I was stuck as the assistant to the Assistant Team SGT and wound up on every patrol we ever ran.
Before I hit the ground at Bragg the phase I FTX was conducted in the woods across the street, Gruber Rd if I remember right, from the barracks. After graduation we were all asked to fill out a questionnaire on what we thought of the course and what could be done to improve it. A group of us got together and determined we would all recommend a longer FTX phase.
A couple years after graduation I was BS'ng with a buddy who came after me in the Q-course and asked him about training. He was pissed because the entire phase I had shifted to MacKall. Apparently, all the classes suggested longer field training.
There was no Selection phase. You were assigned to SF Schools PCS. If you flunked then you were re-assigned to somewhere else. Since you were airborne that generally meant the 82nd. That PCS move is why the Selection phase was created, to stop the expense of a lot of PCS moves. There was no SERE, nor language training provide as part of the Q-course.
Too bad! Nothing like having to break the ice on Drowning creek so we could do the Slide for Life. Or jumping into Big Muddy when the water temp is 33 degrees! The good news was if the air temp was under 10 degrees, we didn't have to run...Two winters at Devens, four winters at Toelz, three winters at Fort Wainwright...I can safely say I have been cold, wet, miserable...slept in snow caves, slept on windswept ridges where I wish I could have been in a snow cave, etc., etc., etc...crossed frozen streams and all of that stuff...Richard and I got to do a slide for life in February at Fort Benning during OCS...that was enough fun for me...
Ranger School during hurricaine season is much fun...
Summer Ranger, Summer Q Course...:D:D:DIf they would have tried and sent me to 10th...I would've terminated!:o
Stay safe.
2018commo
03-28-2008, 10:59
Everyone should have to do it in the winter and freeeeeezzzzeeeeee.
Our class was frozen one night during our last ambush in phase 1. We laid down to wait and it started sleeting and we were frozen in to the ground with our ponchos draped over us. The TAC in the morning called it as he was trapped inside his and we had to cut some people out of the frozen mess. We built a fire so BIG that it started raining on us from the melting ice. Really slow walk back to Camp Mackall since the trucks that we were supposed to ambush could not drive on the fire breaks. No one had a problem getting a fire started that day when the TAC called the training exercise. Will never forget that patrol..
Feb/ Mar 1980? I believe our walk back to Mackall kept us alive.
I like the guys talking about "back in the old days" - THE 90s :D.
You mean it wasn't? But I feel so old. :D
You mean it wasn't? But I feel so old.That is just plain wrong...hell, the 90s are when Pete and I retired...and we are still (somewhat) young...
Okay, so maybe I'm lying a little...:p
RET 30 June 1993. Happiness is a blue ID card! :D
Richard :munchin
I saw the title of the thread and took it to be a change in SF. Sir Moroney nailed it. SF has, and will change according to the dynamics of the world. The mind set of the SF trooper will always be the same. If you don' change with the times you will stagnate.
ZonieDiver
05-19-2008, 16:49
Mark,
Oh yes! Drowning Creek was no fun that month. Remember how so many guys quit right there near the end when we were on patrol in the swamps and it was sleeting and so cold? No fires, no shelters, just soaked to the skin and uncontrollable shivering. Bear Martin and Richmond Nail talked a lot of our classmates into just giving up and going in to a warm tent during that last week.
Richard
I went through Phase I at Mackall in July-Aug, '70 and Drowning Creek felt cold then! We also called Bear Martin "Magazine" Martin due to his inspection of our old, rusty, bent M-14's on the first day. SFC Nail probably could have booted me at one point, but didn't. Not sure why. From there to O5B because I did so well on the Remick (RMIC) test - but I just do well on tests and never got past 12-10. SFC "Mayerling" <sp> was the NCOIC and threatened to "shove this hook" up my 4th POC - but was nice enough to recommend that I be recycled into 11B/C. Phase III was in Feb-Mar, '71 and it was very cold then.
Thanks for the memories...
If they would have tried and sent me to 10th...I would've terminated!:o
Stay safe.
Funny reading all the posts. All the stories are timeless... Speaking of the 10th.. my Robin Sage walker was a 10SFG'er and during our class (February) after infil for the next 8 days or so we were weathered in with snow and ice storms. No resupply birds, all roads were coated with black ice and closed so no real "G" reupply...no missions...no nothing. I was the student detachment commander(since infil) and I was cold, hungry, and miserable. My "G's" were the same. Our main mission was to keep them from getting frostbite and/or freezing to death. One night, as I was sleeping in my poncho hooch inside my wet, down, intermediate sleeping bag with my poncho hooch saggging and toching my face under the weight of the ice that continued to rain down... the good Sergeant lifed the poncho that was covering me and, while clothed in all the latest gear issued by the 10th SFG, stuck his face about 6 inches from mine and said.
Hey.
Sir.
Are.
We.
Having.
Fun.
Yet?
As things change...there are those things that still remain the same. LOL :D