View Full Version : Self-Defenders vs. Law Enforcement: Who'll Do A Better Job of Protecting Campuses?
An ABC News segment-Opinions?
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4301073&page=1
Team Sergeant
02-17-2008, 08:52
ABC is a bunch of spineless, white knuckle, pillow-biting sheep. And their deliberate attempt to incite anti-gun discussion with that moronic headline will only work on those with an IQ less than 65.
No one outside of ABC actually thinks those that carry concealed protect anything but themselves. It’s not a question of "protection" but the idea and individual right to not become a victim by choice.
I carry so that I do not become a victim, it is my earned right as an American citizen.
Now the question if LEO’s can protect our nation’s schools, not unless we treat them as airplanes and search/scan each and every person that enters the facility.
Also if I recall the Supreme Court has already decided that it is NOT the duty of law enforcement to "Protect" citizens.
This is America, you have right to protect yourself and those around you or you have the right to die sobbing on your knees, the choice is yours, no one can protect you but you.
Team Sergeant
"An armed society is a polite society" -Robert A. Heinlein
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T.S. You've got to learn to come out of your shell, and say what you really mean. :D
Peregrino
02-17-2008, 09:19
Their "question" appears disingenuous to me. The MSM deliberately polarizes the argument, making every situation an "either, or" so they can create/emphasize controversy and advance their "anti" position. Police and armed (lawful) citizens are not mutually exclusive. Reality is (should be) a cooperative approach. To revive an extreme example - BKSain's recap of the Texas Belltower shootings. TS hit the nail on the head - with his usual 16 lb. sledgehammer. :p I'm not willing to "throw away" the responsibility for personal security either. (It's not surrender - there's nobody to recieve it. The government has no duty to provide.) My .02
From the city that proved concealed carry can save lives:
http://www.krdotv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7876182
Be sure to watcht the video as well as read the story.
An ABC News segment-Opinions?
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4301073&page=1
I'm all for licensed concealed carry, however, I don't think that in a situation like this one - and in subsequent recurrences - it would have made much of a difference. Most publicly funded College and University campuses are tremendously not secure. Primarily because that state funding also means that anyone is allowed on to campus grounds - student or not. Sure, you could post some of the Campus Public Safety officers all over campus, have metal detectors and scans outside of lecture halls, and you could strap every Johnny-do-good on campus with a gat; but the problems remain.
Try this experiment; Drive to a local college or university campus and walk around. Go in and out of any building you like, and just take in the scene. Now think of how easy it would be to conceal even a large weapon, bring it on campus, and wreak some havoc.
There is really no way to prevent unstable people from doing things like the recent string of campus shootings. Just as there's really no way to keep a deranged person from walking into a Wal-Mart and doing the same thing. The media, however, through their sensationalism have ensured that there will be another copycat incident sometime soon.
-Hybrid
Bracholi
02-18-2008, 08:36
I went to Pittsburgh Technical Institute and I can say... as much as I loved how open the building was, it was not safe. Just at the administrative offices alone there were no doors. Financial aid no doors. A lot of the classrooms were lacking locks. In the event of a gunman in that school there would be no way to lock down the building and there were 3 doors one could enter without being noticed.
I remember discussing it with a lot of my classmates. We don't even have an armed guard there. The building also remains open all night. Would be easy for someone to hide weapons (or even bombs) in the school.
Same thing with Akron U. With the exception of the dorm buildings it is all to easy to get into those buildings unnoticed. They at least do have a university police department.
Team Sergeant
02-18-2008, 08:57
OK, before we have a total melt down;
Bracholi, Hybrid, from your profiles neither of you is even old enough have a CCW.
Second we live in a free society with implies we are allowed to move around as we like.
Third, did either one of you read where I said your personal protection is your responsibility?
Sit back and read more.
I for one would like to keep this a free society.
Team Sergeant
The Reaper
02-18-2008, 08:59
There is really no way to prevent unstable people from doing things like the recent string of campus shootings. Just as there's really no way to keep a deranged person from walking into a Wal-Mart and doing the same thing. The media, however, through their sensationalism have ensured that there will be another copycat incident sometime soon.
-Hybrid
I disagree.
If the fact that they may be engaged by an armed bystander when they present a threat does not deter them, then the 230 grain JHPs entering their Central Nervous System shortly afterwards absolutely and certainly will.
You may walk in and pull your gun, but you will not be able to fire 54 rounds with several reloads before being taken out.
We are not talking about arming every 18 year old kid on campus, either. The CCW holders are trained, older, and in most cases, much more law abiding than your average college student. In some cases, it could be someone like me.
Five minutes response time for armed LE is great, but is far too long to let assholes like this one inflict casualties on sheeple before a good guy with a gun shows up.
I am responsible for my own security, and maybe yours' or your kids', if you let me.
TR
Bracholi
02-18-2008, 09:06
OK, before we have a total melt down;
Bracholi, Hybrid, from your profiles neither of you is even old enough have a CCW.
Second we live in a free society with implies we are allowed to move around as we like.
Third, did either one of you read where I said your personal protection is your responsibility?
Sit back and read more.
I for one would like to keep this a free society.
Team Sergeant
TS, I believe you just brought up another question. I'm 20 currently. There is no one responsible to protect me but myself. Yet without being of age to have a CCW how would I defend myself or my home? I'm a potential victim. When I posted I was more pointing out the lack of a lock down ability at PTI. If someone had decided to start a shooting there I would likely not be here to post now.
edit to add: Thank you Reaper, sir. I would like to also add, I've been through the 10 hour training course to carry a weapon as a security guard. I also would like to add I have never done an illegal thing in my life. It's always been a goal to serve my community, never to take away from it.
OK, before we have a total melt down;
Bracholi, Hybrid, from your profiles neither of you is even old enough have a CCW.
Second we live in a free society with implies we are allowed to move around as we like.
Third, did either one of you read where I said your personal protection is your responsibility?
Sit back and read more.
I for one would like to keep this a free society.
Team Sergeant
With respect, I was just weighing in with my opinion. I'm gonna go back to reading now.
Team Sergeant
02-18-2008, 10:18
TS, I believe you just brought up another question. I'm 20 currently. There is no one responsible to protect me but myself. Yet without being of age to have a CCW how would I defend myself or my home? I'm a potential victim. When I posted I was more pointing out the lack of a lock down ability at PTI. If someone had decided to start a shooting there I would likely not be here to post now.
edit to add: Thank you Reaper, sir. I would like to also add, I've been through the 10 hour training course to carry a weapon as a security guard. I also would like to add I have never done an illegal thing in my life. It's always been a goal to serve my community, never to take away from it.
I have been the personal bodyguard for the American Ambassador in a war zone and yes I was armed.
I am now a retired soldier and there are places I cannot carry arms, like colleges. (Yes, I still take college courses every now and then.)
That said when I'm unarmed and if confronted with certain death you can rest assured I will "not go quietly into that good night."
Had you "read/researched" more on this site, instead of posting, you would have learned by now that your mind is your most powerful weapon and what the mind wills the body will follow.
Also, there are instances where unarmed individuals stopped the threat of a moron with a gun that had already killed. Spare me your excuses. Some of those stories are on this board.
No more posting, you are now in the read mode, both of you.
After you've read every post on this board feel free to post again.
Team Sergeant
Personally, I don't like the "either/or" positioning of the question.....
I am all for CCW. I work in a large urban area, and our response time is pretty damned good, but an individual with a semi auto weapon can pull the trigger a helluva lot of times in 5 minutes.
As others have said, we will never be able to prevent some wacko from walking into a building and opening up.... what we can do, however, it put him down for the dirt nap as quickly as possible. The more qualified, armed people we have out there, the more likely it will happen in a quick and efficient manner.
tom kelly
02-18-2008, 12:50
IMO being armed will not adequately prepare you for a gun fight with deadly consequences. Going to a firing range a few times a year will not get it done either, punching holes in paper,no matter how proficient you are is completely different than returning fire at someone who is shooting at you with the intent to kill you. Having live rounds going by your head is a sound you will never forget. A combat situtation can come on you fast, very fast. Training for this event will require a lot of skill and practice because in a crisis, you will respond as you have trained. Practice and preparation give you the best chance to surive a gunfight....Regard's, tom kelly