Special ops to ramp up training

[Team Sergeant]

Special ops to ramp up training
By Rowan Scarborough
February 10, 2008
U.S. special operations, the top command in fighting the global war on terrorism, is reorganizing itself to show more of its softer side.

Realizing brute force must be tempered by outreach and diplomacy, Special Operations Command (SoCom) is shifting some personnel away from the battlefield and toward the training of foreign armies, who in theory would then be able to hold al Qaeda in check without U.S. military intervention.

SoCom's main mission of attacking terrorists abroad in hours, not days, and for killing or capturing the enemy remains. But it hopes small teams of trainers sent today to North Africa, the Middle East or the Pacific will mean the U.S. would not have to send thousands of troops later to fight terrorists.

"U.S. SoCom is expanding its capacity to perform FID across the components," said a SoCom statement in response to questions from The Washington Times. FID stands for the Foreign Internal Defense mission — a task performed by special operations for decades, but now getting new emphasis.

Until now, Army Special Forces, better known as Green Berets, did virtually all such missions. Now, the Marine Corps have gotten involved, as well as Navy SEALs.

"We have done some internal reorganization," said Maj. Cliff Gilmore, spokesman for Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC). "Certainly, the foreign international defense mission is a set of missions that is becoming more common, and there is a great demand for them."

Adm. Eric Olson, who became chief of U.S. Special Operations Command last year, signaled a change last summer when he told Congress, "We know that we cannot kill or talk our way to victory ... Our actions must demonstrate our values and be convincing locally, regionally and — ultimately — globally."

A few months later, Marine Maj. Gen. Dennis Hejlik, who heads the year-old MARSOC, convened an off-site conference with unit commanders. The result: Gen. Hejlik decided to reduce "direct action" personnel and shift them to the training mission.

continued:

http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080210/NATION/809841255/1001

[SF_BHT]

MARSOC is going to have to keep their Marines for Career tracking inside the Org if they wish to succeed. The revolving door going back and forth to the regular marine forces will cause them to never become functional as a FID force. I hope USSOCOM can fix this if they truly want them to succeed.

[Tubbs]

Ok, in the event that my foot comes anywhere near my mouth I want to put my caveat at the begining of this post.
I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the special operations community. However, I am a United States Marine and I served in operations.
This is more of a question than a statement.

Doesn't it seem foolish that the Marine Corps is trying to move into the arena of FID? Shouldn't we be leaving this to the experts, I.E. US Army Special Forces?
The Marine Corps is designed to be an expiditionary force in readiness. We do have a valuable contribution to make to the special ops side of the War on Terror, but shouldn't we be playing to our strengths which would be the hunting down and elimating of terrorists. We arugably have more experience in this type of low intensiy warefare than the other branches of the military. I would like to reference FMFRP 12-15 "Small Wars Manual" to support this statement.
Wouldn't we do better to focus on DA and reconassaince? In fact, if we did this wouldn't it free Special Forces personal to conduct more FID missions?
Now, I'm a bit biased as I believe that my brother infantry Marines are the ultimate badasses, but that's because we come in and finish shit that other people start and can't finish. Nowhere in my short tenure in the Corps did FID come into that equation.
I'm not trying to talk smack, this shift is just confusing to me. In my copious research into the topic (at the behest of TR after I foolishly engaged him in an arguement as to the parameters of the SF mission vice that of USMC Force Recon) I have come to the conclusion that the only branch of the military with any serious level of FID expertise is SF.

[Pete S]

I have come to the conclusion that the only branch of the military with any serious level of FID expertise is SF.

At this time, yes, I agree with your statement.
MarSoc is still new and they need time to learn.

[The Reaper]

Too many missions=bad at all of them.

We use a selection process that eliminates the majority of all applicants, then lose more during the actual training.

The probationary period on a team is 3 years, by the reg. Even then, the team is being run by guys with ten or more years doing SF missions. We also have an apportioned or an assigned AOR to work in.

As long as the Marines persist in rotating people through MARSOC every few years, they will have problems with trained personnel and a complicated mission.

TR

[Ret10Echo]

At this time, yes, I agree with your statement.
MarSoc is still new and they need time to learn.

But if MARSOC doesn't adjust their mindset, realizing the impact of a rotating force the "still new" will not change.

[SF_BHT]

But if MARSOC doesn't adjust their mindset, realizing the impact of a rotating force the "still new" will not change.

MARSOC can try try try as much as they can but if MOTHER Corps does not change they are destined for failure in the FID environment. FID is the hardest task to do....

[Ret10Echo]

MARSOC can try try try as much as they can but if MOTHER Corps does not change they are destined for failure in the FID environment. FID is the hardest task to do....

Yes, a more correct statement.

[Snaquebite]

I don't think they got the memo with TR's sig line. Then there are the SOF Imperatives....being able to accomplish them dosen't come from adding a few courses to your training.

I already read a post from a MARSOC officer where he stated..."we realize the importance of having MARSOC members on promotion boards, because everybody else would wonder why an E-8 is in charge of a squad." Sound familiar?

[longrange1947]

Having talked with MARSOC guys, they are trying to make the MARSOC an "MOS" producing school similar to ours and not rotate out the talent. I call it MOS as I do not remember, read old addled brain, what they called the Marine version of MOS.

They seem fully cognitive of all the pit falls and are trying to avoid and rectify these problems. They also seem to recognize the time required to become proficient.

All of this said, they were NCOs and not officers. :)

[Pete S]

Having talked with MARSOC guys, they are trying to make the MARSOC an "MOS" producing school similar to ours and not rotate out the talent. I call it MOS as I do not remember, read old addled brain, what they called the Marine version of MOS.

They seem fully cognitive of all the pit falls and are trying to avoid and rectify these problems. They also seem to recognize the time required to become proficient.

All of this said, they were NCOs and not officers. :)


I have a feeling it will be a B-billet designator and not an MOS, similar to qualified snipers. i.e. a rifleman sniper has the MOS 0331-8541.

I wonder how long it is before MarSoc stops the "rotating door" policy on officers and Senior staff NCO's.

[Tubbs]

I have a feeling it will be a B-billet designator and not an MOS, similar to qualified snipers. i.e. a rifleman sniper has the MOS 0331-8541.

I wonder how long it is before MarSoc stops the "rotating door" policy on officers and Senior staff NCO's.

In that case it is not a B-Billet designator, it is a secondary MOS code. For instance when I was the Rance NCO my MOS was 0311 and I didn't lose that, however I assumed the secondary MOS of 8711 Unit Operations Specialist and that is the role I served in my BN. It was a primary duty, not a B billet. The same goes for Marines tasked to STA. As long as they are there that is their primary duty.
They may also replace the Marines existing MOS. Similar to how when a Marine Picks up Staff NCO in the infantry their MOS goes from 03-- to 0369, when they go to recon they become an 0321, etc.
Of course you may be right and it could be a B-Billet like SOI instructor, Recruiter, or DI.

[Pete S]

In that case it is not a B-Billet designator, it is a secondary MOS code. For instance when I was the Rance NCO my MOS was 0311 and I didn't lose that, however I assumed the secondary MOS of 8711 Unit Operations Specialist and that is the role I served in my BN. It was a primary duty, not a B billet. The same goes for Marines tasked to STA. As long as they are there that is their primary duty.
They may also replace the Marines existing MOS. Similar to how when a Marine Picks up Staff NCO in the infantry their MOS goes from 03-- to 0369, when they go to recon they become an 0321, etc.
Of course you may be right and it could be a B-Billet like SOI instructor, Recruiter, or DI.

You are correct about the secondary MOS, my mistake.

[warrottjr]

In that case it is not a B-Billet designator, it is a secondary MOS code. For instance when I was the Rance NCO my MOS was 0311 and I didn't lose that, however I assumed the secondary MOS of 8711 Unit Operations Specialist and that is the role I served in my BN. It was a primary duty, not a B billet. The same goes for Marines tasked to STA. As long as they are there that is their primary duty.
They may also replace the Marines existing MOS. Similar to how when a Marine Picks up Staff NCO in the infantry their MOS goes from 03-- to 0369, when they go to recon they become an 0321, etc.
Of course you may be right and it could be a B-Billet like SOI instructor, Recruiter, or DI.

In the Army, a soldier has a primary MOS and duty MOS. The soldier receives his duty MOS when he is assigned to a position. His duty MOS doesn't become his primary MOS until he qualifies for the position. Thus the expression "MOS producing schools."

[Pete S]

I just spoke with a friend who is an Infantry instructor at ITB, and he had more up to date info about MarSoc.

Many of the senior Sgt's who went to MarSoc from Force Recon are not happy about the way the way Marines are being sent to the unit. There is presently no official Indoc to join and no formal school, so anyone who has appropriate MOS who requests to go to there is sent. The problem is mostly with the Comm guys who are being sent directly from their MOS school to a team.

The good news is that there will be a formal school started in the next 4 - 6 months, and everyone who is considered to be in MarSoc will be going through and are subject to reassignment if they fail.