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Desert Fox
05-08-2004, 17:10
Hi,

In response to The Reaper's answer related to BRAVO TWO-ZERO book (see Long Range Meals Planning: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1479 ) , I have few ,,questions'':

-I heard this story would be a fiction lie.Is that true?
-I would like to start a conversation about the Lessons Learned.

The first obvious error is the bad frequencies.I think a radio check should be done before the mission and just after the insertion.

Thank you

The Reaper
05-08-2004, 17:15
DF:

You may get some generic feedback, but I would caution anyone posting on this to consider security and not discuss anything which would be considered sensitive.

This is the internet, and we do not know that you are not Osama himself, nor do we know who might read what is posted and use it to harm our brothers in arms.

Hope you get what you are looking for without crossing any lines.

Good luck.

TR

Team Sergeant
05-08-2004, 17:17
Originally posted by Desert Fox
I think a radio check should be done before the mission and just after the insertion.



Mission is now over, everyone on the team is dead. What do you think you just did wrong?

Team Sergeant

Desert Fox
05-08-2004, 17:41
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Mission is now over, everyone on the team is dead. What do you think you just did wrong?

Team Sergeant

Hi TS,

Answer: Maybe a bad luck? Murphy's Law. The patrol is catched by local children.
The rest:
the patrol separation.(usually every parties know to meat at the last RV, by default).
bad weather preparation (the question: was it really unpredictable?).
No comms back-up.
Insertion and movement into a dense hostile zone without any assured fire support.

But I dont want to start anything DOD sensitive.

Team Sergeant
05-08-2004, 17:55
DF,

I would not use that scenario and their mistakes as a learning aid. Hell unless you were there you’ve no idea what really went on.

As far as why you are dead, making HF comms behind enemy lines is a risky business. Unless you are a trained communications professional I would refrain from making any communications comments or suggestions. Get some training or read up on DFing of HF equipment.

TS

Desert Fox
05-08-2004, 18:18
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
DF,

I would not use that scenario and their mistakes as a learning aid. Hell unless you were there you’ve no idea what really went on.

As far as why you are dead, making HF comms behind enemy lines is a risky business. Unless you are a trained communications professional I would refrain from making any communications comments or suggestions. Get some training or read up on DFing of HF equipment.

TS

I'm ALWAYS humble when ,,judging'' another's mission, for the reason you told me.'this is to easy'.

I could association a 'yes but' with everything I said.

Again, I can say: if tey had made a radio check just before the mission, they would had comms.But again if I emitt I risq to be monitored. It was 1991 and I dont think the burst system was really used by the SAS, and defenitely not by Iraq.I know for Canadian Forces, in 1993 it took about 48 hours to do a complete electronic map at the division level.That was not so fast.A short check at the base, prior to embarkment, or a back-up frequencies 'twin' list would, I think, have been secure in the perspective of electronic warfare.
The same way we test weapons prior to a mission, the same way we should test the comms, which is, in a sense, a weapon.
But to give bad comms instructions to a LRP is unforgivable.Comms mean life.

I'm just trying some mental acrobatics, some brainstorming.It often comes with good points.

Roguish Lawyer
05-08-2004, 20:59
There is a book called something like "The Real Bravo Two Zero" that says that McNab's story is not nearly as heroic as he tells it. I was given a copy but have not read it.

BTW, they made a movie from the book which I thought was quite good. The guy who was the lead terrorist in Patriot Games (Sean Bean?) plays McNab. Rare movie that actually tracks the book and gets the same impact.

Basenshukai
05-08-2004, 23:50
The mission of "Bravo 2 Zero" (if that's even what the patrol was actually called) was covered over and over again regarding the do's and don'ts (mainly the "don'ts") during E and R instruction in the Q Course. The book "The One That Got Away" gives a good balance to the story as a whole when read with McNabb's book. Other than that, not much can be discussed here without endangering OPSEC. It's not the facts of the publicly available books that I wouldn't discuss. It's the analysis I would make based on the classified training I (and every other SF soldier out there) have received regarding the topic of Evasion and Recovery that would be out of bounds. So, yeah ... good reads ... both books. :)

brownapple
05-09-2004, 00:57
The only thing I will add is that the SAS ended up doing 2 After Action Reports regarding this mission. The first was done after the return of the patrol, based on what they said. The second was done after an investigation caused by the publication of both "McNabs" and "Ryans" books.

The most important point? Both books are fiction. Ryan's is closer to the truth. The book mentioned above: "The Real Bravo Two Zero" provides some of the information from the investigation. If you are going to read them, read all three.

Tuukka
05-09-2004, 09:15
Major Peter Radcliffes book Eye Of The Storm gives his account on advising "McNab" before the insertion of the patrol, regarding for example taking a vehicle and so on. Radcliffe was the RSM of the 22nd SAS at that time and later in the campaign was inserted to relieve a vehicle convoy´s commander of his duties.

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 09:45
Originally posted by Greenhat
The most important point? Both books are fiction. Ryan's is closer to the truth. The book mentioned above: "The Real Bravo Two Zero" provides some of the information from the investigation. If you are going to read them, read all three.

Concur completely. I particularly enjoyed "The One Who Got Away".

TR

Huey14
07-03-2004, 06:50
Sorry to bring up an old topic, but add "Soldier Five" to the list of books by patrol members. It's by "Mark The Kiwi". AKA Mike Coburn. It's a good read. Doesn't ham it up like the others did.

The Reaper
07-03-2004, 08:45
Originally posted by Huey14
Sorry to bring up an old topic, but add "Soldier Five" to the list of books by patrol members. It's by "Mark The Kiwi". AKA Mike Coburn. It's a good read. Doesn't ham it up like the others did.

Looks to be UK and NZ availability only.

Anyone got a US source?

TR

gk404
07-03-2004, 15:34
If you don't mind getting it from Canada, here's the link. (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1840188669/ref=cs_nav_top_wl/ref=cm_mp_wli_/702-7470165-7263268?coliid=IIMVV6KRKWGA3)

GK

The Reaper
07-03-2004, 16:48
Thanks much!

TR

Joe Hawkins
01-31-2009, 12:34
Concur completely. I particularly enjoyed "The One Who Got Away".

TR

I have read loads of SAS books of the Gulf War and elsewhere and about the only thing they all agree on is the crap kit still issued to them.
Chris Ryans book was a good read and he made the point that if he hadnt been in such good physical shape he wouldnt have survived the E&E infact its the same point some posters made about the 6 week survival challenge bulk up to help the body survive.
I dont know if it was shown in America but Chris Ryan did a tv series called Chasing Chris Ryan where he is set E&E challenges while pursued by a hunter force of ex SF both British and American ex Royal Marines, Paras, US Seals.
He dose well, very well actually as he manages to piss the hunter force right off !!

alright4u
01-31-2009, 14:34
Seems no one even has reviewed this book? I can tell you that I could not and never second quessed the team (one zero) on the ground from the right seat of an O-2. You cannot see what is going on from the air like the men on the ground know , nor do you know their situation.except as reported.

.

Pete S
01-31-2009, 15:32
I dont know if it was shown in America but Chris Ryan did a tv series called Chasing Chris Ryan where he is set E&E challenges while pursued by a hunter force of ex SF both British and American ex Royal Marines, Paras, US Seals.
He dose well, very well actually as he manages to piss the hunter force right off !!

Hunting Chris Ryan, I was able to find it on Youtube.

Rumblyguts
01-31-2009, 16:27
I have read loads of SAS books of the Gulf War and elsewhere and about the only thing they all agree on is the crap kit still issued to them.
Chris Ryans book was a good read and he made the point that if he hadnt been in such good physical shape he wouldnt have survived the E&E infact its the same point some posters made about the 6 week survival challenge bulk up to help the body survive.
I dont know if it was shown in America but Chris Ryan did a tv series called Chasing Chris Ryan where he is set E&E challenges while pursued by a hunter force of ex SF both British and American ex Royal Marines, Paras, US Seals.
He dose well, very well actually as he manages to piss the hunter force right off !!

If I remember, he got pretty cold one time too. He had a good safety net in place.