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Desert Fox
05-08-2004, 16:39
Hi,
I often meet bears when I do some land nav.They are always escaping. A good thing with bears is that it simulates the enemy, and that makes me very cautious, particulary in dense (< 20m line of sight) .When I am in a very dense place where a bear can be surprised(which is dangerous), I say some words loud.
I would be interested to know some way to defend against bears.Here in Canada pepper spray is not permitted, nor firearms (except during hunting season, and with a license).
I would like to know if it is realistic to defend myself with a knive,with proper technique, oubviously.If the blade is pointed foward the force of the collision will just throw the knife away.
I'm thinking about some ''reaction technique": right arm with the knife protected behind, left arm protecting the face.The knife against the side/back of the bear.

I though about some powder CAT A-B fire extinguisher.


Thank you.

The Reaper
05-08-2004, 16:56
I think that if you cannot use pepper spray or a gun, you better start practicing sprinting and climbing, or start hiking elsewhere.

There is very little chance of protecting yourself against a bear attack with a knife. A spear, maybe.

It is possible that a loud compressed air horn might scare them away, but then again, it may not, and might cause a Pavlovian response.

Good luck, bearbait.

TR

Sacamuelas
05-08-2004, 17:26
BearBait-

I am sure Bill "assassin" Harsey will be along shortly to help you. I heard, well it may just be folklore, but I believe it and heard he once killed a large raccon with only ten shots. He is feared by all fur covered critters in his part of the world now. I am sure a knife would be over kill for such a wimpy animal as a Bear. Bill will know what ninja knife maneuver to use.. and if not, Smokin Joe can teach you that "knife through the palate" gungFu he tried to put off on me in the point shooting thread. LOL HAHAHAHA
Bill or Joe??? You out there? Come help this gentleman. :munchin

Team Sergeant
05-08-2004, 17:42
Can’t have a rifle, no pepper spray, and a knife isn’t cut it. Well then in situations like these I would opt for;

a running CHAINSAW!

Hope that helps,

Team Sergeant

QRQ 30
05-08-2004, 17:56
Watch the movie "Jeremiah Johnson". BTW can you skin bahr?:munchin

Desert Fox
05-08-2004, 17:58
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Can’t have a rifle, no pepper spray, and a knife isn’t cut it. Well then in situations like these I would opt for;

a running CHAINSAW!

Hope that helps,

Team Sergeant

2 in 1:
sound + blade. Two lines of defenses. ;)

Roguish Lawyer
05-08-2004, 21:01
Originally posted by The Reaper
There is very little chance of protecting yourself against a bear attack with a knife. A spear, maybe.

Smatchet? LOL

Sdiver
05-08-2004, 21:34
Just make alot of noise as you're walking through the woods. The sound of you approching should make them run off.

A Bear will attack when it's starteled and is defending its area of if you happen to come across a Mother and her Cubs. If the lader were to happen to you, then take up TR's advice and learn to run very fast and very far.

The Reaper
05-08-2004, 21:52
Originally posted by Sdiver
Just make alot of noise as you're walking through the woods. The sound of you approching should make them run off.

A Bear will attack when it's starteled and is defending its area of if you happen to come across a Mother and her Cubs. If the lader were to happen to you, then take up TR's advice and learn to run very fast and very far.

Or just bring a slow, fat, friend.

TR

Sdiver
05-08-2004, 22:16
Originally posted by The Reaper
Or just bring a slow, fat, friend.

TR

ROTFLMAO

That goes along the lines of why you carry a knife while diving.

Desert Fox
05-09-2004, 08:48
Originally posted by Sdiver
Just make alot of noise as you're walking through the woods. The sound of you approching should make them run off.

A Bear will attack when it's starteled and is defending its area of if you happen to come across a Mother and her Cubs. If the lader were to happen to you, then take up TR's advice and learn to run very fast and very far.

How fast a furious bear can run? I thought it was too fast.

Bill Harsey
05-09-2004, 09:33
Great topic and Thanks for dragging me in o great Tactical Tooth Grinder. Desert Fox, Are you facing Browns or Blacks? Somewhere in the shop I have the article for a man who has killed many bear with a knife. I'll try to find it, Ben Lilly was his name I think. TTG, someday I'll tell you about one shot kill I made on big mountain kitty at distance of 6 ft. Sometimes I can shoot well when it counts.

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 09:40
About here is where we will insert the standard legal disclaimer that it is illegal, immoral, and mostly, just plain insane to attempt to defend yourself with a knife against the size of bears you are likely to encounter in the Canadian wilds.

I am not an attorney, or even familiar with Canadian laws, but you may want to consider the moral dilemma of whether it is better to violate a law and carry a non-lethal can of OC to be used only to defend a life, or to carry a knife which may also be illegal, to seriously injure or kill a bear while risking your own life in the same scenario.

You have a tough decision, good luck.

TR

Desert Fox
05-09-2004, 09:47
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Great topic and Thanks for dragging me in o great Tactical Tooth Grinder. Desert Fox, Are you facing Browns or Blacks? Somewhere in the shop I have the article for a man who has killed many bear with a knife. I'll try to find it, Ben Lilly was his name I think. TTG, someday I'll tell you about one shot kill I made on big mountain kitty at distance of 6 ft. Sometimes I can shoot well when it counts.

Hi Sir,

I meet black bears.

Bill Harsey
05-09-2004, 09:53
Desert Fox, Sorry about your dilemma with bears, not making light of it. I have an old friend (and harsey knife user) who was one of the best bear guides in Alaska back when they could still be pursued. Lesson learned is that even with big bore rifle you'd better know what your doing or leave them alone. He made an emergency shot once against a full grown charging brown, he made the kill with a single round from a .44 magnum handgun. Bear fell two paces from where he stood. Too close for comfort, Reaper called that a lucky shot but I would argue that he had the experience to help the luck a whole lot. Follow Reapers quidance. Read about Ben Lilly, Google has him.

Bill Harsey
05-09-2004, 09:57
Originally posted by Desert Fox
Hi Sir,

I meet black bears. Black bears hurt far more humans than Browns, Kodiaks (Grizzly). Bill

Desert Fox
05-09-2004, 10:05
Originally posted by The Reaper
About here is where we will insert the standard legal disclaimer that it is illegal, immoral, and mostly, just plain insane to attempt to defend yourself with a knife against the size of bears you are likely to encounter in the Canadian wilds.

I am not an attorney, or even familiar with Canadian laws, but you may want to consider the moral dilemma of whether it is better to violate a law and carry a non-lethal can of OC to be used only to defend a life, or to carry a knife which may also be illegal, to seriously injure or kill a bear while risking your own life in the same scenario.

You have a tough decision, good luck.

TR

Yes sir, I'm asking myself exactly the same question.This is still illegal for me to drag a foot long Fairbain Sykes.Every thing more than 6 inches (blade+handle) is illegal in canada, until you keep them for a personnal collection.There are some pressure to totally ban every knife more than 6 inches, and too thick.
The problem with pepper spray is that its hard to find in Canada.And I can't import from the US.That's why I tought about some powder extinguisher.I've use one in a house and just the secondary smoking result was harder to breath than the fire smoke itself.I think a sharp blast can have a good effect.By the way, I have a smoke screen to withdraw. :cool:

I still prefer to be seen with a Pepper spray can than a 'born to kill super ninja' knife. By the time I can find one can, a small fire extinguisher will be good.

Bill Harsey
05-09-2004, 10:06
Bears can attack humans for reasons we'll never be certain of. Bear can have a tooth ache. Bears can be wounded and in a bad mood from losing a fight with another bear, be defending a food kill that we don't see, have young ones around that we don't see. Some bears just have a downright anti social attitude. Bear could be wounded from encounter with another human. Don't try to predict bears. Best of luck Sir.

Desert Fox
05-09-2004, 10:10
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Black bears hurt far more humans than Browns, Kodiaks (Grizzly). Bill

Hi sir,

Another base I went is called Valcartier.There, just around the running path a woman runner was killed by a bear attack.I just met one bear at Valcartier.
Here at Gagetown New Brunswick it's worse.

Desert Fox
05-09-2004, 10:12
Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Bears can attack humans for reasons we'll never be certain of. Bear can have a tooth ache. Bears can be wounded and in a bad mood from losing a fight with another bear, be defending a food kill that we don't see, have young ones around that we don't see. Some bears just have a downright anti social attitude. Bear could be wounded from encounter with another human. Don't try to predict bears. Best of luck Sir.

Thank you for those interesting informations.
How fast can a black bear runs?

gk404
05-09-2004, 11:09
Originally posted by Desert Fox
Thank you for those interesting informations.
How fast can a black bear runs?

Lean bears can exceed 30 mph. Can run uphill, downhill, or on level ground. Fat bears in winter coats overheat and tire quickly.

Edited to add:
Greatest misconception: The greatest misconception about black bears is that they are likely to attack people in defense of cubs. They are highly unlikely to do this. Black bear researchers often capture screaming cubs in the presence of bluff-charging mothers with no attacks. Defense of cubs is a grizzly bear trait. About 70 percent of human deaths from grizzly bears are from mothers defending cubs, but black bear mothers have not been known to kill anyone in defense of cubs.

Source (http://www.bear.org/Black/Black_Bear_Facts.html)

gk404
05-09-2004, 11:15
Here's some more good intel on black bears: *Click* (http://www.bear.org/Black/Articles/How_Dangerous_are_Black_Bears.html)

Air.177
05-09-2004, 11:37
You need a Surefire M6, I am not certain, but a flashlight should be legal everywhere.

From the Surefire website:

My SureFire M6 may have saved my life! I was walking out of my home on a moonless night in the Colorado Mountains when I heard the snapping of twigs and branches. I used my M6 to light up the area and discovered an unusually large black bear watching me. To my pleasure, the blinding light of the M6 drove him deep into the woods.
This year, Colorado residents have experienced a large number of bear encounters. We experienced a late freeze in the spring, greatly reducing the bear's natural food supply of berries.

There have been several bear attacks this year resulting in severe injuries in a couple of cases. I feel very fortunate to have had my M6 with me. Thank you SureFire, the M6 is a true friend!

Dan Legg
Conifer, Colorado

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 11:55
Yeah, that will do it, unless he is rucking in the day time.

One isolated incident is hardly demonstrative of a defensive capability.

FWIW, I believe that black bears may be involved in more bear attacks because there are many more of them than any other species.

TR

Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-09-2004, 12:36
Part of the problem with black bears and attacks on humans has to do with the maladjusted head space of the humans. Bears will eat just about anything and when food is scarce they will take whatever is easy to get. The big sport up in this neck of the woods is to go to the local dumps in the evening and watch the bears forage for food. I have had one on my property that thought he was a frigging chickadee and after he cleaned out one feeder he destroyed another because it was empty. So there I was in the middle of the night hearing this critter trying to pull down a feeder. Snatched my .45 and flashlight, dashed outside clad in my skivies and socks and put a round over his head. Thought that the gunfire had scared him off but guess it was the sight of some crazy, scantily clad, old, wrinkled, hairy, limping human that scared him more because he was back the next night for more. Only way to get rid of him was to pull in the feeders at night. So much for tales from the great northern forest.

Jack Moroney

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 12:45
Sounds like a "that's my story and I'm sticking to it" explanation.

I am sure that the bear, when found with a fatal gunshot wound to the head, had left a suicide note and a stack of empty beer cans.

TR

Sdiver
05-09-2004, 12:45
Originally posted by Jack Moroney
Part of the problem with black bears and attacks on humans has to do with the maladjusted head space of the humans. Bears will eat just about anything and when food is scarce they will take whatever is easy to get. The big sport up in this neck of the woods is to go to the local dumps in the evening and watch the bears forage for food. I have had one on my property that thought he was a frigging chickadee and after he cleaned out one feeder he destroyed another because it was empty. So there I was in the middle of the night hearing this critter trying to pull down a feeder. Snatched my .45 and flashlight, dashed outside clad in my skivies and socks and put a round over his head. Thought that the gunfire had scared him off but guess it was the sight of some crazy, scantily clad, old, wrinkled, hairy, limping human that scared him more because he was back the next night for more. Only way to get rid of him was to pull in the feeders at night. So much for tales from the great northern forest.

Jack Moroney

Even without you grabbingyour .45, just the thought alone of you as discribed above, frightens me.


Some great info on Bears I didn't know. Thanks fellas.

QRQ 30
05-09-2004, 12:53
Yeah, that will do it, unless he is rucking in the day time.

Who? Da Bahr? What if he's wearing sunglasses? :D

Bill Harsey
05-09-2004, 18:24
Originally posted by QRQ 30
Who? Da Bahr? What if he's wearing sunglasses? :D That means he's from California and you can fire at will.

QRQ 30
05-09-2004, 19:15
I'm sure that DF was serious but I just can't help recalling something I saw in the movies. It was one of the few scenes I can recall that caused me to laugh out loud. The movie was "Jeremiah Johnson" and Jeremiah (Robert Redford) was learning how to be a mountain man. The old mountain man asked Jeremiah: "Boy, can you skin griz?" Jeremiasays : "Yes". The old man says: "Then go into the cabin and skin that griz." Jeremiah goes into the cabin and all hell breaks out. Suddenly the front door bursts open, Jeremiah flies out and the grizzley also flies out and on down the mountain.

The old man says: "Boy, before you can skin griz you need to kill the bahr!".

Now that I think of it the movie may have been "The Life and Times of Grizzley Adams". The old man was Grizzley Adams. "Jeremiah Johnson" was the sequel in which idiians kept trying to kill Jeremiah to get his mojo.:munchin

The Reaper
05-09-2004, 19:32
QRQ:

I think in Jeremiah Johnson, he asks Redford in the cabin about knowing how to skin a griz, then goes outside and comes running back in with one hot on his tail. He dives out the back window and tells him to skin that one.

Dialogue:

Bear Claw Chris Lapp: Can you skin Griz?

Jeremiah Johnson: I can skin 'em as fast as you can catch 'em.

Bear Claw runs through the cabin with a huge Grizzly Bear close behind and jumps out the back window.

Bear Claw Chris Lapp: Skin that one, greenhorn and I'll get you another!

TR

Bill Harsey
05-09-2004, 19:41
That's way too good. Thanks for sharing! Sounds like you guys. Bill

Bill Harsey
05-09-2004, 19:56
True story here, I have several friends who cut timber in Alaska. This would be on the very wet southeastern part of the state near Canada. They liked to try and save as much money as they could so they would pitch a tent near the job and camp out. Under any conditions this would be called a rough camp. One of the newcomers ( a Northwest Timber cutter) to Alaska expressed a strong fear of bears. It goes without saying these guys lived in Brown bear country. They'd had a few Browns around the camp looking for easy food (I'm not blaming the bears one bit). This must be the first time this ever happend but the boys had a few drinks and afterwards decided to have some fun with their buddy. When he went to sleep they wired some bacon to his leg, bacon was left about 10 feet outside the tent. They woke up in the middle of the night to the buddy screaming and being dragged backward out of the tent. They kinda had to do some tricky shooting to save the buddy. I'm not laughing, this wasn't funny. This is my same friend who would throw rocks at a full grown brown in camp at thirty feet distance to make him go away, he didn't want to have to shoot.

Maple Flag
05-09-2004, 21:46
Desert Fox,

I think you are handicapping yourself needlessly. I am not a lawyer, but I am involved in law enforcement and what you say about blades >6" and possession of OC spray is only partly correct - the wrong part.

Neither OC spray nor long blades are restricted or prohibited in Canada. The applicable charge used for people who carry these things is known in short for as "Possession - Weapons Dangerous". The relavant section of the Criminal Code of Canada is here:

Possession Offences

Possession of weapon for dangerous purpose
88. (1) Every person commits an offence who carries or possesses a weapon, an imitation of a weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition for a purpose dangerous to the public peace or for the purpose of committing an offence.

Punishment
(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


The key factor for culpability here is whether your possession of the item was dangerous to the public peace. If you're carrying a big knife or OC spray in a populated area where there is no justifiable need ("justifiable" to the courts, not you), you can get dinged on this charge. Arguing they are for self defence (ie: repel attack by human) is NOT justifiable. On the other hand, postal workers in the city carry OC for protection against dogs. This IS justifiable.

If you are in the back country, I don't see that either a big knife or OC spray would be found to be dangerous to the public peace. On the other hand, if you walk into a department store with either on you, you may well by-pass the checkout line and go directly to jail.

The 6" blade rule is a tool used in law enforcement (probably based on old case law) to determine whether the knife by itself is "dangerous to the public peace" in a non-wilderness setting (ie: would the average person be alarmed to see this hanging on someone's belt). In reality, if you have a knife with a 3" blade and are handling it in such a manner as to alarm the local population, you could probably be convicted of this, regardless of the blade length.

In closing, the above is my understanding and experience with Canadian law on these issues, but I an NOT giving legal advice. Check with a real lawyer if you want to be sure.

Sorry for the long winded response. I hope that helps to clear this up.


Source: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/c-46/41698.html

QRQ 30
05-09-2004, 21:50
Thanks TR your memory far surpasses mine. I must say I was ROTFLMAO during that movie. I believe I saw it in the teamhouse in Thailand and choked on my beer. :D

Smokin Joe
05-10-2004, 09:39
Desert Fox,

I would love to teach you the Knife through the Upper palate technique but its supper hush hush stuff I can't really talk about it in the open. LOL Tooth grinder I can't beleive you don't like my technique.

Fox it sounds like Maple Flag and others have given you good advice. I don't know jack sh*t about bears accept to stay away from them and if you are going to shoot one you HAVE to kill them your break bone in order for them to disengage. You might want to try a flashbang. J/K if Canada is as bad as I hear it is these days you would probably be thrown in prision for a few years if caught carrying a flashbang around.

Stay Safe Bear Bait my only serious advice would be to stay out of the woods until you have sufficient means to protect yourself in the woods.

Desert Fox
05-10-2004, 17:57
Originally posted by Maple Flag
Desert Fox,

I think you are handicapping yourself needlessly. I am not a lawyer, but I am involved in law enforcement and what you say about blades >6" and possession of OC spray is only partly correct - the wrong part.

Neither OC spray nor long blades are restricted or prohibited in Canada. The applicable charge used for people who carry these things is known in short for as "Possession - Weapons Dangerous". The relavant section of the Criminal Code of Canada is here:

Possession Offences

Possession of weapon for dangerous purpose
88. (1) Every person commits an offence who carries or possesses a weapon, an imitation of a weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition for a purpose dangerous to the public peace or for the purpose of committing an offence.

Punishment
(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


The key factor for culpability here is whether your possession of the item was dangerous to the public peace. If you're carrying a big knife or OC spray in a populated area where there is no justifiable need ("justifiable" to the courts, not you), you can get dinged on this charge. Arguing they are for self defence (ie: repel attack by human) is NOT justifiable. On the other hand, postal workers in the city carry OC for protection against dogs. This IS justifiable.

If you are in the back country, I don't see that either a big knife or OC spray would be found to be dangerous to the public peace. On the other hand, if you walk into a department store with either on you, you may well by-pass the checkout line and go directly to jail.

The 6" blade rule is a tool used in law enforcement (probably based on old case law) to determine whether the knife by itself is "dangerous to the public peace" in a non-wilderness setting (ie: would the average person be alarmed to see this hanging on someone's belt). In reality, if you have a knife with a 3" blade and are handling it in such a manner as to alarm the local population, you could probably be convicted of this, regardless of the blade length.

In closing, the above is my understanding and experience with Canadian law on these issues, but I an NOT giving legal advice. Check with a real lawyer if you want to be sure.

Sorry for the long winded response. I hope that helps to clear this up.


Source: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/c-46/41698.html

Thank you for that experienced insigth.I wasnt told that.And few months ago I wanted to buy some pepper spray from the internet.I was told its illegal in Canada.The can was called bearspray, I think.
About replicas, I sent an email throw the gouv website and they told me even if the replica is pink or red, this is still considered a replica.

Desert Fox
05-10-2004, 18:00
Originally posted by gk404
Lean bears can exceed 30 mph. Can run uphill, downhill, or on level ground. Fat bears in winter coats overheat and tire quickly.

Edited to add:
Greatest misconception: The greatest misconception about black bears is that they are likely to attack people in defense of cubs. They are highly unlikely to do this. Black bear researchers often capture screaming cubs in the presence of bluff-charging mothers with no attacks. Defense of cubs is a grizzly bear trait. About 70 percent of human deaths from grizzly bears are from mothers defending cubs, but black bear mothers have not been known to kill anyone in defense of cubs.

Source (http://www.bear.org/Black/Black_Bear_Facts.html)

Those quick releases could be very useful...I can't run 30 mph with an added weight of 70 pounds! :D

Desert Fox
05-10-2004, 18:10
Originally posted by Smokin Joe
Desert Fox,

I would love to teach you the Knife through the Upper palate technique but its supper hush hush stuff I can't really talk about it in the open. LOL Tooth grinder I can't beleive you don't like my technique.

Fox it sounds like Maple Flag and others have given you good advice. I don't know jack sh*t about bears accept to stay away from them and if you are going to shoot one you HAVE to kill them your break bone in order for them to disengage. You might want to try a flashbang. J/K if Canada is as bad as I hear it is these days you would probably be thrown in prision for a few years if caught carrying a flashbang around.

Stay Safe Bear Bait my only serious advice would be to stay out of the woods until you have sufficient means to protect yourself in the woods.

I am just lucky at this point I was never attacked.Always they are escaping.At least I dont meet bears everytime I do some cross-country.And food discipline is very important.I don't sleep where I eat!

I will defenitly equip myself better soon.

By now I'm starting to note the exact grid of every bears encounters, with my Garmin 72 GPS that I use for land nav debriefings and pace counting calculations.


At the end of the movie Legends of the Fall, its toll be killed by a bear is a nice death!humm....:confused: