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ccrn
01-27-2008, 23:35
I need some recommendations regarding nutrition.

The reason I say this is my goals seem to be competing with each other.

To make a long story short I weightlift, do calesthenics, swim, and run.

The problem is since Ive turned up the weight lifting Ive gained weight which is the opposite of what I want to do. Of course Im enjoying the benefits of lifting ie increased strength and muscle. But I need to be lighter to stay good on the run and getting up a rope.

Even though I eat only about 2000 calories per day, work out and run Im still not really loosing weight which is frustrating.

When I seek out books on sports nutrition they seemed to be aimed at either endurance athletes or bodybuilders. The also all seem to push supplements which is something I dont use.

My goals are endurance and strength. I want to be able to run, swim, and lift and do all three well.

Do you guys have any recommendations for books on all around general sports nutrition?

Thanks

Bracholi
01-27-2008, 23:53
I'm not sure about books per se... I've taken what I'm using now (to what seems to be decent success) from various forums, information sites, clinical sites, and my past personal trainer.


<!-- Taken from http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-009-diet. 1998 — 2004 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved. -->
(10.2 x bodyweight + 879) x .50 =
(10.2 x bodyweight + 879) x .60 =

For me it's 1600-1935 daily calories... But I eat 1800 on workout days and likely less than 1600 on off days... Mainly because I'm fat and need to lose weight to enlist.

That's from the Velocity diet... That's the only thing I really used from that diet... It throws in supplements and the such but your set for motivation so leave the supplements to us lazy folk.

Razor
01-28-2008, 19:29
ccrn, are you gaining weight, or gaining fat? If you're doing heavy work with the weights on a regular basis, you're most likely going to gain weight, as you're gaining muscle mass. If you're gaining fat, well, you're eating more calories than you're burning, so you either need to cut back the eating, or amp up the activity.

ccrn
01-28-2008, 20:07
Razor
It has to be muscle as Ive added nothing to the waste line. My chest, shoulders, and legs are gaining however.

I dont mind that, but with the increased weight my run times will go down. Its making it a little harder getting up a rope too. I suppose with a little time the strength to weight ratio will increase so maybe its a moot point. Being lighter will be better for my knees and hips over the long run

My main issue is my goal is to get down to 185lb which is what I was just a few years ago. Most of the competetive runners I know, and weight lifters, say I shouldnt loose weight while increasing work. I want to do both (on not a lot of sleep either).

Ive restricted my diet as low as I think I can yet try to stay out of ketosis.

Ive been looking into some sports nutrition books and ideas so thought Id ask here for pointers-
Thanks for the responses I appreciate them

Razor
01-28-2008, 22:04
I'm no nutritionist, but it sounds like your issue lies with type of exercise vice the food you're eating. If you lift heavy, you're going to bulk up to an extent (genetics plays a role here, along with exercise type and nutrition). Perhaps you should look more into higher intensity, lower weight exercises (to include body weight exercises) to build endurance and power/explosiveness rather than mass. Crossfit.com has a wide variety of exercises that fall into this category, along with videos on correct form.

As for rope climbing, if you're using good technique, the now stronger, large muscle groups in your legs should more than offset your gain in overall mass.

FWIW, I avoid supplements (except for a daily vitamin, and anything prescribed) too.

Bracholi
01-29-2008, 00:42
Yeah I'd say if your worried about hurting your run then you should set a balance in your routine... If you admit to doing more weights than cardio you should expect it to be a bit harder for cardio because you're used to running at X weight.
So I'd say match your weight:cardio to be 1:1 so you get the best of both worlds... sure you may gain a little slower, but your cardio and rope climbing should do well by it... Just my opinion...

I barely know anything about fitness mind you... I've been working on it though. Trying to do my best without hurting myself... (pretty easy to do when every time you run .30 of a mile you hit 190 heart rate)

The Reaper
01-29-2008, 06:07
Yeah I'd say if your worried about hurting your run then you should set a balance in your routine... If you admit to doing more weights than cardio you should expect it to be a bit harder for cardio because you're used to running at X weight.
So I'd say match your weight:cardio to be 1:1 so you get the best of both worlds... sure you may gain a little slower, but your cardio and rope climbing should do well by it... Just my opinion...

I barely know anything about fitness mind you... I've been working on it though. Trying to do my best without hurting myself... (pretty easy to do when every time you run .30 of a mile you hit 190 heart rate)

In that case, you might want to stick to providing advice on topics you have some expertise in.

TR

Bracholi
01-29-2008, 14:35
Sorry sir, will do.

ClemsonTiger
01-29-2008, 17:49
If you break that 2000 calories down into fat, protein, and carbs, it would help. Also, a sample of what you would eat in a day would be useful. If you're trying to lose weight there are tons of factors that can make a big difference that you might not even think of. One thing that works with a large percentage of people is a daily carb cut-off, where after 3 or 4 PM you don't consume carbs (with the exception of vegetables). Also, timing your carb consumption is very important.

ccrn
01-29-2008, 20:30
As for rope climbing, if you're using good technique, the now stronger, large muscle groups in your legs should more than offset your gain in overall mass.

Lima Charlie. Like you I dont use supplements either. I did use protein in the one hour window after a run or workout but I stopped doing that too.

As far as daily diet...

If I work days I rypically eat as follows:
Breakfast
2 fried eggs
1 toast (60cal)
3 Turky Bacon
6 oz OJ

Lunch (Over 2 breaks)
1 turkey sandwich (60 cal bread)
1 PB sandwich (60 cal bread)
1 fruit (apple, banana, orange etc)
Vitamin Water (50cal)
2 serving peanuts(170 x 2)
H20

Supper
Meat serving
Veggie
Salad
H20

Run, Lift.

That usually works out to around 1900-2100 calories.

When I work nights its about the same only I come home and eat the same breakfast, go to sleep, wake up and run then lift, eat the same type supper, and take the same lunch to work with me. I work 4-5 12 hour shifts a week.

If its an off day I keep the calories lower than that usually.

I dont eat rice, potatoes, cereals, or sodas.

Typically I run 20 miles per week right now (winter), and lift 5 days-
Thanks again

ClemsonTiger
01-30-2008, 08:57
I would make sure that all your carbs are "brown" - whole wheat as much as possible and NEVER any white bread or the like. From the looks of your running/lifting schedule, it doesn't make sense for you t not lose weight. My guess would be that your metabolism has slowed down due to the amount of exercise you are doing compared to the number of calories you are eating. This happens to a large number of people when they are trying to lose weight, and usually after a couple of weeks the body will adapt and you will lose weight again. To prevent this problem most people incorporate a day per week into their diet where they eat a significant surplus of calories. By doing this you are able to keep the weight loss from plateauing.

GratefulCitizen
01-30-2008, 13:33
My goals are endurance and strength. I want to be able to run, swim, and lift and do all three well.

Thanks

Can you be a little more specific about your goals?

What distances (for performing well) are your primary focus in running and swimming?

What types of lifting do you want to do well?
-What types of strength?
-(speed-strength, explosive strength, muscular endurance, starting strength, etc.)
-For what purpose?

You can't train yourself to do everything well at the same time.
Some types of training will be counter-productive to certain types of fitness.

Razor
01-30-2008, 14:18
ClemsonTiger, unless he has a medically identified insulin problem, I think completely avoiding processed carbohydrates is unnecessarily extreme. For most folks with "normal" body chemistry, a little white flour isn't going to cause them to gain 50lbs. and not be able to lose it ever. Sure, substituting whole grain where its rather simple (sandwich bread, rice, cereals) is a good idea for a number of health reasons, but strictly avoid any and all processed grains isn't essential to losing fat.

ccrn
01-30-2008, 18:32
Ok,

I do avoid as much white flower and refined processed grains as possible. I eat almost no white bread and what sandwich bread I do use is the pumpernickel and low cal type grains that are usually around 60-70 cal per slice. I admit that every two weeks or so I do have a great big fat juicey hamburger but not any more often than that. I kind of justify that on the calorie shift that Clemson Tiger mentioned above.

No, I have no health problems. I can pass a modified flight phsyical for over 40 any day of the week including labs, CXR, and EKGs.

As far as my goals...

I am in the Infantry and another combat tour is intevitable so being able to do that well at my advanced age is my goal (and more).

We are held to the Army APFT and the EIB standards in my unit as a minimum.

I also want to be able to bench 300, squat 300, and military press 200.

A running goal is a 10K at a 7 minute mile pace.

I swim 1000 meters in 20 minutes without fins ( and not pushing off) but Id lke to do that faster too.

Id need to get my underwaters out to 50 meters.

Good performence on obstacle course or confidence course.

By the way, I weighed myself today and Im 2lb less than last week so hopefully the downward trend has started.

S3Project
01-30-2008, 21:49
Crossfitters seem to like the Zone diet, especially in regards to nutritional value per calorie. It may be worth checking out a Crossfit Journal article or two, or at least looking at the Crossfit Nutrition Board. In fact, this would be a great question to ask there.

And why no deadlift? ;)

Regards,

Derek

GratefulCitizen
01-30-2008, 23:18
CCRN, PM sent.

bost1751
01-31-2008, 18:06
First look at facts and your workout. Muscle is heavier than fat so you will more than likely gain some weight in the beginning. Your diet is equally as important as your weight routine. To complicate it all to some degree, cardio requires a differant type of diet than wieght training. You can combine the two and still reach your goals. Your lift gooals, bench 300, squat 300 and press 200, are very attainable. How you get there and the length of time you get will depend your style of training.

From what I have gathered you want to gain strength, improve your running and not gain any weight. Sounds simple. The reality is if you follow what is considered a weight training diet you will lose the carbs for your cardio training.

A suggestion is to move to a cut/ripped routine with the weights, a high intensity program. It will smoke you at first but it cuts fat and carbs. You will achieve your goals as far as weight goes and you should lose weight maintain or improve your running and continue to follow a reasonably normal diet.

A ripped program requires high reps, 15-20, with no more than 60 seconds rest between sets. It is a good change to shock your muscles to promote growth for a while also. You can incorporate a high intensity portion into your weight training or a complete high intensity program.

I'll be glad to send you more information and references if you would like it. Just let me know. I lifted heavy for my entire SF career and am lifting again in my second life now.

ccrn
01-31-2008, 22:32
I'll be glad to send you more information... Just let me know. I lifted heavy for my entire SF career and am lifting again in my second life now.

Id be very interested in what you have to say. Thanks very much.

You are spot on with the conflict between running type diets and weight lifting and therein lies my problem (lack of knowledge). Im still a novice with all of this considering Ive been running about three years and lifting about one and a half. As fars as learning goes I have the rest of my life to do that regarding these subects but considering Id like to peak sometime this June or July I dont have a lot of time to experiment.

Endurance is an issue too ie pushups, situps, and pullups so I do all that as well-

bost1751
02-02-2008, 11:32
There has been a lot of useful provided in previous posts. Diet is important for health, genetics are there and you can't change them. Start reseaching, reading about anatomy, muscles etc. The more processed a food source, the less nutrients you will consume from it.

Look into good cross training programs. With all of this said, you are the one that knows what your body responds to best. It will take some time to determine that, but the day will come. Keep in mind there is an ideal world and reality. EX: eat five meals a day. That's great. Now a guy in the infantry, living the the barracks and eating in the mess hall may not have that opportunity available to him.

I will send you a few ideas on training with weights so hopefully you can avoid some of the pitfalls I made over the years. The routines will be high intensity. Provided you you attempt this, stay with it for a minimum of a month, preferably 6 weeks then change to the next one. One thing for sure, you should always end your weight training session with a 20-35 minute cardio exercise.

The suggested programs I'll forward to you will have more lifts per muscles group than you should do, pick 2 or 3 and stay with them. Otherwise you will drag your wieght traing out far to long and end up over training. Be patient, rome was not built in a day.

I am not trying to sound like a know it all. I have some good ideas. You determine what is right for you. Hopefully the info I PM you will help you accomplish your goals. Dedication and determine along with training smart are the force that will get you there.

Set reasonable goals and above all be patient. Rome wa

S3Project
02-03-2008, 20:51
Now, this is coming from a novice lifter (albeit one with a nascent passion for heavy things...), but consider:

It seems to me that HIT (which is primarily a hypertrophy, not strength, program) would be less conducive to achieving your goals (a favorable strength/weight ratio) than a genuine strength program, as outlined by Mark Rippetoe in Starting Strength and Practical Programming. Note he really only uses functional, compound lifts - squats, deadlift, press, bench, cleans. Pulls and chins make for viable assistance work.

Rippetoe's program is not about getting "ripped" or looking pretty, per say - although athletes routinely gain 40-60 pounds if they drink a gallon of milk a day - but it is about focused athletic strength training. I, personally, have been on his strength program for three months and consider it to be my best training decision thus far.

If you're interested, purchase Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training and Practical Programming for Strength Training from http://www.aasgaardco.com/

He also runs a great Q&A forum at Strengthmill. Maybe run your question by him?

Regards,

Derek

ccrn
02-04-2008, 22:10
Yeah Im not sure yet that he is actually speaking of HIT. Im familiar with that but Ive never tried it.

Ive read about rippetoe but decided its not enough for me. I do like his emphasis on compound movements and overall strength. Ive searched for more advanced programs of his to see if that would be a better fit but Im not going to buy his book sight unseen.

His book isnt at my local bookstores or I could have checked one out.

Thanks for the suggestions though-

S3Project
02-04-2008, 22:28
Yeah Im not sure yet that he is actually speaking of HIT. Im familiar with that but Ive never tried it.

Ive read about rippetoe but decided its not enough for me. I do like his emphasis on compound movements and overall strength. Ive searched for more advanced programs of his to see if that would be a better fit but Im not going to buy his book sight unseen.

His book isnt at my local bookstores or I could have checked one out.

Thanks for the suggestions though-

If you want some information regarding intermediate-level programs, send me a PM. Have you considered the Texas Method? It's an intermediate-level program, and your lifts probably put you in that area.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1720181

Has a brief synopsis...

There's also Westside...

You probably won't find Rip's work in bookstores. He's not a mass-produced "fad-of-the-moment" type of guy, and thus probably doesn't have mainstream appeal that booksellers are looking for. But his stuff is more than worth the purchase...plus he's a very cool guy.

Regards,
Derek

HQ6
02-05-2008, 15:16
You might think about replacing the nuts/peanut butter which are high in calorie with a Lean Body shake which has 40 grams of protein to 260 calories and 0 sugar. It is also lactose free for those of us with the joy of lactose intolerance.

ETA there is also Myoplex Lite which is comparable in protein to calorie, but it tastes nasty IMO :)

ClemsonTiger
02-05-2008, 17:26
For strength, I would do a standard Westside split. It doesn't get any easier than this and it's hard to match the results. If you do this, take into account that a lot of accessory work will hurt you by overloading the CNS. Also, follow the percentage guidelines. I used Westside for a long time to get into powerlifting, and went from scrawny and weak to scrawny and decently strong (1100 total) while not gaining too much weight. If you have any specific questions about setting up the template feel free to PM me.

jbour13
02-05-2008, 20:24
Lima Charlie. Like you I dont use supplements either. I did use protein in the one hour window after a run or workout but I stopped doing that too.

As far as daily diet...

If I work days I rypically eat as follows:
Breakfast
2 fried eggs
1 toast (60cal)
3 Turky Bacon
6 oz OJ

Lunch (Over 2 breaks)
1 turkey sandwich (60 cal bread)
1 PB sandwich (60 cal bread)
1 fruit (apple, banana, orange etc)
Vitamin Water (50cal)
2 serving peanuts(170 x 2)
H20

Supper
Meat serving
Veggie
Salad
H20

Run, Lift.

That usually works out to around 1900-2100 calories.

When I work nights its about the same only I come home and eat the same breakfast, go to sleep, wake up and run then lift, eat the same type supper, and take the same lunch to work with me. I work 4-5 12 hour shifts a week.

If its an off day I keep the calories lower than that usually.

I dont eat rice, potatoes, cereals, or sodas.

Typically I run 20 miles per week right now (winter), and lift 5 days-
Thanks again

I see that your calorie intake isn't the main blame here. Timing will have good results at maintaining the muscle you've built and giving you the energy necessary to keep up the intensity. I would break down your meals and add 1 additional to cut down on the amount of calories you get in one setting.

Razor hit it on the head about heavy lifting. Compound movements and higher repititions with light weigts in weight lifting will build lean muscular tissue. Low repitition, basic movements and heavy weight is good for bulking up. Genetically find your balance. I for one am prone to bulking up, I have to continually monitor my gains and refocus and change my workouts to stay lean.

I had a nutritionist ask me a question at one point in my early career:

"Who needs more protein intake, a marathon runner or body builder?"

Most would be suprised that distance runners need more protein since they are continually breaking down muscular tissue.

I'm 5'8" and at 21 years old stationed in Hawaii during the peacetime Army (oh the boring days) I hit my peak weight at 206lbs and couldn't run a 15:00 mile for $hit. My daily calorie intake was around 4500 calories. 1 year later I upped my intensity with higher reps and longer runs while cutting my calories to 2500 and was a lean 165lbs and running 11:40 2 mile times and able to ruck 12 miles in 2:15.

So far Razor, bost1751, S3Project and HQ6 have given good advice. See a nutritionist and be realistic in your goals. Know what you want and hit it hard. You'll do fine if you have the discipline ;)