View Full Version : An question about enlisted rank
rubberneck
01-24-2008, 19:05
There is an older gentleman at my gun club that I want to have thrown out of the club. At the range today he swept not one but two shooters in a 10 minute span. I didn't witness the first one and he claimed that it didn't happen but the second time I saw it and threw him off the line.
Something has to be done as he has been talked to repeatedly and nothing seems to get through to him. The problem is that the Board of the Club loves him, in large part, because he spent 30 years in the military and fought both Korea and Vietnam, and no one wants to disrespect a Vet, myself included. Having said that his stories seem to border on the absurd (read phony) and he has repeatedly said that he retired after 30 years as a Staff Sergeant. Is it possible to serve that long honorably (including two wars) and not advance any further? Something isn't right with this guy and I'd hate to see the board let him stay around if his service record isn't what he claims it to be.
brownapple
01-24-2008, 19:26
In the timeframe you are discussing, it is possible. Guys could get in trouble, get busted and stay in. The "up and out" policy and "no fault" policies weren't in place to the extent that they have been since the 80s.
Btw, I know a guy who retired in the 1980s as an E4. After 20 years, he was an E6. He entered fake paperwork into his records promoting himself to E7 (in preparation for his retirement). He was caught, held over for Court Martial, busted to E4 and retired. Ten years later, the Army reinstated his retirement at E5 (a hearing determined that was the highest grade honorably held).
Doesn't mean his stories are true, just that the rank and time is possible.
Team Sergeant
01-24-2008, 20:23
Highly unlikely he retired after 30 years as an SSG.
I'd ask him for his DD-214, and remember, all real VETERANS will have no problem showing you a DD-214, or, just ask to see his military ID........ it would be in his wallet, at all times right next to his drivers license.
If he's flagging people on the range, I don't care if he's a former Chief of Staff, he should be banned from the range, period.
TS
Tell him you don't mind being flagged as long as he doesn't mind getting shot. Worked for me at a local range.
I seriously have no patience for unsafe range behavior. I have no respect for those that don't care to change their ways and act with bravado and stupidity when confronted about it. I'm all for safety and having a good time, but ultimately I place safety as the #1 priority.
My wife worked with a gentleman on base who is a former Marine and he retired as a SSGT. He enlisted the year before Vietnam began, although I believe that he did 20 years.
I would expect anyone in the military for more than 30 days to know better than to flag someone ever, let alone 30 years.
I agree with Team Sergeant 100%. If it turns out he really was in the military and he happend to have been a Marine then ask him for his coin too.
I would expect anyone in the military for more than 30 days to know better than to flag someone ever, let alone 30 years.
You have higher expectations than I.
Please forgive me for posting here but it reminds me of something I have personal experience with. These could be signs of some degree of alzheimers.
rubberneck
01-25-2008, 08:14
Dad, I too have had personal experience with Alzheimers (both of my grandfathers had it) and I am pretty sure that this gentlemen doesn't have it. It could be in the really early stages but I don't think you can attribute his sloppy gun handling to it.
I spent 20 minutes talking to the President of the club (one of his most vocal supporters) late last night and he is in agreement that it has got to go. Even though I know I am right I still feel like a heel for taking the club away from a Vet as it seems like it is the only thing in left his life.
Thanks to all the posters who replied to this thread.
Dad, I too have had personal experience with Alzheimers (both of my grandfathers had it) and I am pretty sure that this gentlemen doesn't have it. It could be in the really early stages but I don't think you can attribute his sloppy gun handling to it.
I spent 20 minutes talking to the President of the club (one of his most vocal supporters) late last night and he is in agreement that it has got to go. Even though I know I am right I still feel like a heel for taking the club away from a Vet as it seems like it is the only thing in left his life.
Thanks to all the posters who replied to this thread.
He certainly has earned the right to be a participating member, but that right carrries certain responsiblities. Don't feel like a "heel" for reporting and pursuing unsafe behavior at a shooting range. Think about having this conversation with another member: "You know, he shot my best friend, but he's really happy about being a member here............":(
Is it possible to serve that long honorably (including two wars) and not advance any further?
I knew a SSG when I was at Campbell that was working on his 24th or 25th year. VN Veteran, WIA and a great guy but played hard in his younger days and was busted a couple of times. So it's possible to put in 30 and retire at that grade.
CPTAUSRET
01-25-2008, 11:42
Different era.
In 62 I was in the ROK, assigned to the 1/12th Cav, I had a Corporal working for me who had over 20 years service, he soldiered during the day, but hit the booze when off duty. He had been busted more than a few times. I counseled him numerous times, he knew I would not recommend him for promotion. He ultimately retired in Korea, 62-63 timeframe, where his money would go far. Probably drank himself to death.
If he is not safe on the range then he needs to be removed from it. If he won't show his DD-214 or doesn't carry his Military ID, he's most likely a Poser.
I would expect anyone in the military for more than 30 days to know better than to flag someone ever, let alone 30 years.
I've seen senior NCO's with years of service behind them shoot clearing barrels, one I saw with my own eyes do it ... twice!
He drew his weapon, didnt drop the magazine, pulled the slide to the rear, observed the live round eject, released the slide (chambering another round) and fired into the clearing barrel. The spent casing ejected, the sergeant major pulled the slide to the rear observed the live round eject, released the slide (chambering another round) and fired into the clearing barrel... again. At which time the young Specialist on gate guard duty "received" the pistol from the Sergeant Major.
JustinW20
01-25-2008, 13:48
Good friend of my father's was a career sailor. His proudest accomplishment was making E-6 not once, not twice, but three times...
In 1967, I was the acting platoon leader of the recon platoon of the 1/19th Inf (mech), 24th ID in Germany. One day when we were in the field, a helicopter circled our lager site and then landed. Out jumped MG E. L. Rowney (our division commander) and SGM Woolery (later SGM of the Army).
I ran to them from my M114 APC, saluted and introduced myself. General Rowney asked if all of my men knew their basic knowledge for their positions in the platoon. I replied, "Yes, General" and he took a head space/timing guage out of his pocket, walked to the nearest track and threw it to SP4 Coachins. He asked Coachins to show him how to set the head space on the ..50 Caliber on the track. Coachins showed him and the general asked if Coachins platoon sergeant had taught him that skill.
Coachins replied, "No Sir, I learned it in Korea when I was the Battalion Commander of a Quad .50 Battalion". It seems that Coachins had been a Major and had commanded a battalion. After Korea, he was "riffed" to MSG and then had a DWI accident killing a German civilian. He was court martialled and busted to Private E-2. He had soldiered his way back to E-4.
Coachins retired a year later as a Major (highest rank held in those days).
Mike
I ran to them from my M114 APC...
But how long did it take you to squeeze out of that thing in the first place?
Different era.
True -- I guess it has been awhile since I was active. It was rare to see a Senior NCO that was not a VN Vet when I joined.
AngelsSix
01-25-2008, 22:13
Coachins replied, "No Sir, I learned it in Korea when I was the Battalion Commander of a Quad .50 Battalion". It seems that Coachins had been a Major and had commanded a battalion. After Korea, he was "riffed" to MSG and then had a DWI accident killing a German civilian. He was court martialled and busted to Private E-2. He had soldiered his way back to E-4.
Coachins retired a year later as a Major (highest rank held in those days).
They can bust an officer to an enlisted rank????:confused:
The Reaper
01-26-2008, 07:51
They can bust an officer to an enlisted rank????:confused:
No. The quote says he was RIFFed to MSG, THEN busted to PV2 later.
TR
Team Sergeant
01-26-2008, 09:03
Different era.
Yeah, wasn't that the end of the Bronze Age?:munchin
In 1984 we had an E-4 who had over 10 years in. He was a Vietnam vet. We also had a couple of E-6 and E-7 Nam Vets. They were the true leadership for us........well maybe not the Spec Four Guy, he was NUTS!:D
CPTAUSRET
01-26-2008, 09:27
Yeah, wasn't that the end of the Bronze Age?:munchin
OUCH!
Feel the love!:D
They can bust an officer to an enlisted rank????:confused:
Reduction in Force (RIF) was a way of depopulating the officer ranks after WWII and the Korean Wars. A reserve officer, who had a permanent rank of an NCO was reduced to that rank. Many officers accepted the reduction so that they could retire laterr at their highest rank held.
The rules have changed.
Mike
optactical
01-27-2008, 07:45
I had a buddy retire three years ago as a SSG with 20 yrs, from SF. It happens, just not a lot.
Vet or no vet, that SSG (Ret) needs to be safety boarded.
Bracholi
01-27-2008, 23:49
Oddly enough my short amount of range time (10 hours on range training) did leave me enough time to get flagged... Not a happy time. When I pointed it out to others the already warm room heated up... I don't think flagging is a good idea when half the guys are LE and you're from the other side of the law trying to become LE...
Later the guy proved he's a failure at shooting so well the instructor switched him to a .22 conversion on the M9 I had been firing...
I've seen senior NCO's with years of service behind them shoot clearing barrels, one I saw with my own eyes do it ... twice!
He drew his weapon, didnt drop the magazine, pulled the slide to the rear, observed the live round eject, released the slide (chambering another round) and fired into the clearing barrel. The spent casing ejected, the sergeant major pulled the slide to the rear observed the live round eject, released the slide (chambering another round) and fired into the clearing barrel... again. At which time the young Specialist on gate guard duty "received" the pistol from the Sergeant Major.
Yeah, I've seen something similar three times, twice in the military (one US Army Reserve MP, one British Army) and once at a civilian range.
If you handle firearms enough its not a matter of if you eventually have a ND, its more a matter of when. That's why one needs to always make sure that their weapon is pointed in a safe direction and they are not flagging anyone.
I'm pretty sure that all of us who have served in the military have flagged someone at least once, but for those of us with good NCO's it was mostly likely only once.
I know that was the case for me. Drill Instructor Sgt. Mota made sure that I understood the gravity of the situation...
We had a very pleasant discussion about it in the tree line near the pugil sticks area on Parris Island.